Digital BW, The Print

Antonios! The black I'am getting Using MIS  STANDARD hextones is comparable 
to the Piezo blacks you would get on popular papers such as Orwell, Wells 
River or EAM. 
I was able to jam a sheet of this 350gsm paper in my Piezo 3000 machine and I 
was quite surprised. Your right! Piezo inks do not like this paper at all! It 
made the worst looking black and white inkjet I've ever seen! Could be a 
major profile mismatch but it wouldn't be worth the work to try and get it to 
print better.
As far as the Epson Fine Art smooth? The MIS blacks are very dense! as black 
as any piezo black i've seen. I was unable to directly compare this paper 
with Piezo as its way too thick to get in the printer! 425gsm 19mil. This is 
almost 2ply mat board.
The bad news on the Eclipse paper is, it does not come in 17x22 or work with 
Piezo so to make 16x20's I would have to go for the 24in rolls and its 
limited to MIS inks or color work.
Still a very nice sheet for MIS quad or hex inksets.
Antonios, do you have a 7000?
Steve M.

In a message dated 08/15/2001 12:57:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
antonisphoto@... writes:

<< Steve,
 
 could you comment on the relative strength of the black on these papers?
 Have you seen them both with the hexatones and the piezo (side by side 
 preferably)?
 The Eclipse looks miserable with piezo, mainly because it lacks a good 
black. 
 But I hear the Epson FA smooth is a winner in piezo, so I am guessing it 
wins 
 with both inksets.
 
 Thanks for the mini review. Please update us along the way.
 
 
 Antonis >>

Antonis,

As far as the Eclipse Velvet 350 gsm goes, I can confirm what Steve 
says below about the Piezo. Using an image and profile that works 
well on Torchon or Legion Photo Matte the Eclipse Velvet print is 
very washed out with weak blacks. I also have the Eclipse Satine 190 
gsm and it prints about the same.

This is incredibly disappointing because the papers are beautiful. 
Brightness between EAM and LPM. Just enough more texture than LPM to 
be appealing. The Satine is a tiny bit smoother than the Velvet. The 
print color is more neutral than LPM.

If you do something drastic like using a 200% Dot Density, you can 
get a black that comes very close to Torchon and LPM but in large 
expanses is a bit veiled looking. At this point the print has heavy 
posterizing. Using the "Unsupported" profile with a gamma of 0.90 and 
dropping the image brightness about 5% I felt I was moving towards 
something useable.

I think I will save what I have to try on with the MIS VT.

Martin


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., sdmey4@a... wrote:
> Antonios! The black I'am getting Using MIS  STANDARD hextones is 
comparable 
> to the Piezo blacks you would get on popular papers such as Orwell, 
Wells 
> River or EAM. 
> I was able to jam a sheet of this 350gsm paper in my Piezo 3000 
machine and I 
> was quite surprised. Your right! Piezo inks do not like this paper 
at all! It 
> made the worst looking black and white inkjet I've ever seen! Could 
be a 
> major profile mismatch but it wouldn't be worth the work to try and 
get it to 
> print better.
> As far as the Epson Fine Art smooth? The MIS blacks are very dense! 
as black 
> as any piezo black i've seen. I was unable to directly compare this 
paper 
> with Piezo as its way too thick to get in the printer! 425gsm 
19mil. This is 
> almost 2ply mat board.
> The bad news on the Eclipse paper is, it does not come in 17x22 or 
work with 
> Piezo so to make 16x20's I would have to go for the 24in rolls and 
its 
> limited to MIS inks or color work.
> Still a very nice sheet for MIS quad or hex inksets.
(snip)

Steve,

I have an 1160. I wonder if I can jam a 425 gsm paper through it... 

Meanwhile, I am thinking that since the MIS inks don't depend on a PC to run 
the Piezo software, I am guessing the next logical step is to go for the 9000 
and use the MIS variable inks. Opinions anyone (Mike, Paul)?

The top contenders right now seem to be the Legion Photo Matte, the 
upcoming Hahnemuehle Photo Rag and this Epson FA (made by Crane).
These have gotten high scores at least for Piezo - as good as William Turner 
and Orwell (German Etching). I am guessing they are also doing well for MIS 
inks (either standard hex or variable quad). Is that the consensus?

Antonis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., sdmey4@a... wrote:
> Antonios! The black I'am getting Using MIS  STANDARD hextones is 
comparable 
> to the Piezo blacks you would get on popular papers such as Orwell, Wells 
> River or EAM. 
> I was able to jam a sheet of this 350gsm paper in my Piezo 3000 machine 
and I 
> was quite surprised. Your right! Piezo inks do not like this paper at all! It 
> made the worst looking black and white inkjet I've ever seen! 
.........
> As far as the Epson Fine Art smooth? The MIS blacks are very dense! as 
black 
> as any piezo black i've seen.
....
> Antonios, do you have a 7000?
> Steve M.

Interesting thread, guys!

If y'all are looking for a heavier weight sheet with similar print 
characteristics to Museo desktop and/or Epson SFA, we also have a 365 
gsm weight.  same paper as Museo:  100% cotton, acid-free, pH Neutral 
(our pH is between 7.5-8.5; yes i know 8-8.5 is tending toward 
alkaline, but in the paper biz we still think of this as neutral), no 
optical brighteners (which will turn the paper yellow over time).  
This is available in 24x36 sheets and 35x47 sheets (25 INTERLEAVED 
sheets per carton).  
The interleaves are acid-free and can be re-used ;).

This 365 gsm will go through a 1270, 2000P and 750.  Trust me.  I 
have done it and it surprised me.  you do have to feed one at a time, 
the media lever needs to be set all the way to "+"; but it works.

sorry, we can't cut down from this size, but y'all are creative ;)

if interested contact me off-list for samples, prices, etc.

thanks for your attention 
sincerely
robert rex


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., antonisphoto@y... wrote:
> Steve,
> 
> I have an 1160. I wonder if I can jam a 425 gsm paper through it... 
> 
> Meanwhile, I am thinking that since the MIS inks don't depend on a 
PC to run 
> the Piezo software, I am guessing the next logical step is to go 
for the 9000 
> and use the MIS variable inks. Opinions anyone (Mike, Paul)?
> 
> The top contenders right now seem to be the Legion Photo Matte, the 
> upcoming Hahnemuehle Photo Rag and this Epson FA (made by Crane).
> These have gotten high scores at least for Piezo - as good as 
William Turner 
> and Orwell (German Etching). I am guessing they are also doing well 
for MIS 
> inks (either standard hex or variable quad). Is that the consensus?
> 
> Antonis
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., sdmey4@a... wrote:
> > Antonios! The black I'am getting Using MIS  STANDARD hextones is 
> comparable 
> > to the Piezo blacks you would get on popular papers such as 
Orwell, Wells 
> > River or EAM. 
> > I was able to jam a sheet of this 350gsm paper in my Piezo 3000 
machine 
> and I 
> > was quite surprised. Your right! Piezo inks do not like this 
paper at all! It 
> > made the worst looking black and white inkjet I've ever seen! 
> .........
> > As far as the Epson Fine Art smooth? The MIS blacks are very 
dense! as 

> black 
> > as any piezo black i've seen.
> ....
> > Antonios, do you have a 7000?
> > Steve M.

Nice to have your input Robert.

Do you know of any plans, either by Crane or by Epson, to sell the Epson SFA
(or a rebranded equivalent) in sheets. Your post below sounds like it and
Museo are rather alike, but user reports suggest otherwise.

Todd

> Interesting thread, guys!
> 
> If y'all are looking for a heavier weight sheet with similar print
> characteristics to Museo desktop and/or Epson SFA, we also have a 365
> gsm weight.  same paper as Museo:  100% cotton, acid-free, pH Neutral
> (our pH is between 7.5-8.5; yes i know 8-8.5 is tending toward
> alkaline, but in the paper biz we still think of this as neutral), no
> optical brighteners (which will turn the paper yellow over time).
> This is available in 24x36 sheets and 35x47 sheets (25 INTERLEAVED
> sheets per carton).
> The interleaves are acid-free and can be re-used ;).
> 
> This 365 gsm will go through a 1270, 2000P and 750.  Trust me.  I
> have done it and it surprised me.  you do have to feed one at a time,
> the media lever needs to be set all the way to "+"; but it works.
> 
> sorry, we can't cut down from this size, but y'all are creative ;)
> 
> if interested contact me off-list for samples, prices, etc.
> 
> thanks for your attention
> sincerely
> robert rex
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., antonisphoto@y... wrote:
>> Steve,
>> 
>> I have an 1160. I wonder if I can jam a 425 gsm paper through it...
>> 
>> Meanwhile, I am thinking that since the MIS inks don't depend on a
> PC to run 
>> the Piezo software, I am guessing the next logical step is to go
> for the 9000 
>> and use the MIS variable inks. Opinions anyone (Mike, Paul)?
>> 
>> The top contenders right now seem to be the Legion Photo Matte, the
>> upcoming Hahnemuehle Photo Rag and this Epson FA (made by Crane).
>> These have gotten high scores at least for Piezo - as good as
> William Turner 
>> and Orwell (German Etching). I am guessing they are also doing well
> for MIS 
>> inks (either standard hex or variable quad). Is that the consensus?
>> 
>> Antonis
>> 
>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., sdmey4@a... wrote:
>>> Antonios! The black I'am getting Using MIS  STANDARD hextones is
>> comparable 
>>> to the Piezo blacks you would get on popular papers such as
> Orwell, Wells 
>>> River or EAM. 
>>> I was able to jam a sheet of this 350gsm paper in my Piezo 3000
> machine 
>> and I 
>>> was quite surprised. Your right! Piezo inks do not like this
> paper at all! It 
>>> made the worst looking black and white inkjet I've ever seen!
>> .........
>>> As far as the Epson Fine Art smooth? The MIS blacks are very
> dense! as 
>> black 
>>> as any piezo black i've seen.
>> ....
>>> Antonios, do you have a 7000?
>>> Steve M.
> 
> 
> 
> If you do not wish to belong to Digital B&W, The Print, you may
> unsubscribe by sending an email to:
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

Steadman, Todd:
my apologies for the confusion with my alternate email address.

i do have samples available of the 365 gsm sheet for any willing 
participants (sorry only 8 1/2 x 11 sheets).  please email at 
rrex@... (ie, off-list) if you wish a sample.

with respect to your first question, todd, hmmm,  i don't think i can 
answer this at this time...

with regard to your second question, yes, SFA and Museo are different 
sheets, although the surface texture is similar (Museo may be 
slightly more pronounced), as there are variations in the inkjet 
receptive coating.  more testing for you guys...;)
thanks 
robert rex


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> 
wrote:
> Nice to have your input Robert.
> 
> Do you know of any plans, either by Crane or by Epson, to sell the 
Epson SFA
> (or a rebranded equivalent) in sheets. Your post below sounds like 
it and
> Museo are rather alike, but user reports suggest otherwise.
> 
> Todd
> 
> > Interesting thread, guys!
> > 
> > If y'all are looking for a heavier weight sheet with similar print
> > characteristics to Museo desktop and/or Epson SFA, we also have a 
365
> > gsm weight.  same paper as Museo:  100% cotton, acid-free, pH 
Neutral
> > (our pH is between 7.5-8.5; yes i know 8-8.5 is tending toward
> > alkaline, but in the paper biz we still think of this as 
neutral), no
> > optical brighteners (which will turn the paper yellow over time).
> > This is available in 24x36 sheets and 35x47 sheets (25 INTERLEAVED
> > sheets per carton).
> > The interleaves are acid-free and can be re-used ;).
> > 
> > This 365 gsm will go through a 1270, 2000P and 750.  Trust me.  I
> > have done it and it surprised me.  you do have to feed one at a 
time,
> > the media lever needs to be set all the way to "+"; but it works.
> > 
> > sorry, we can't cut down from this size, but y'all are creative ;)
> > 
> > if interested contact me off-list for samples, prices, etc.
> > 
> > thanks for your attention
> > sincerely
> > robert rex
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., antonisphoto@y... wrote:
> >> Steve,
> >> 
> >> I have an 1160. I wonder if I can jam a 425 gsm paper through 
it...
> >> 
> >> Meanwhile, I am thinking that since the MIS inks don't depend on 
a
> > PC to run 
> >> the Piezo software, I am guessing the next logical step is to go
> > for the 9000 
> >> and use the MIS variable inks. Opinions anyone (Mike, Paul)?
> >> 
> >> The top contenders right now seem to be the Legion Photo Matte, 
the
> >> upcoming Hahnemuehle Photo Rag and this Epson FA (made by Crane).
> >> These have gotten high scores at least for Piezo - as good as
> > William Turner 
> >> and Orwell (German Etching). I am guessing they are also doing 
well
> > for MIS 
> >> inks (either standard hex or variable quad). Is that the 
consensus?
> >> 
> >> Antonis
> >> 
> >> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., sdmey4@a... wrote:
> >>> Antonios! The black I'am getting Using MIS  STANDARD hextones is
> >> comparable 
> >>> to the Piezo blacks you would get on popular papers such as
> > Orwell, Wells 
> >>> River or EAM. 
> >>> I was able to jam a sheet of this 350gsm paper in my Piezo 3000
> > machine 
> >> and I 
> >>> was quite surprised. Your right! Piezo inks do not like this
> > paper at all! It 
> >>> made the worst looking black and white inkjet I've ever seen!
> >> .........
> >>> As far as the Epson Fine Art smooth? The MIS blacks are very
> > dense! as 
> >> black 
> >>> as any piezo black i've seen.
> >> ....
> >>> Antonios, do you have a 7000?
> >>> Steve M.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > If you do not wish to belong to Digital B&W, The Print, you may
> > unsubscribe by sending an email to:
> > DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@y...
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > 
> >

Robert,

You sent me a sample of Museo a while back, and at the time my Piezo rig
wasn't working, but I the color prints I made on it were nice. Now that I've
got a working Piezo setup I'd love to try a sample of the heavier weight
sheet.

Jason DeFontes
c/o AperServ Technologies
8304D Old Courthouse Road
Vienna, VA 22182

Thanks!

-Jason

-----Original Message-----
From: chameleon@... [mailto:chameleon@...]
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 11:11 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Interesting new papers- Eclipse, Epson FA


i do have samples available of the 365 gsm sheet for any willing
participants (sorry only 8 1/2 x 11 sheets).  please email at
rrex@... (ie, off-list) if you wish a sample.

Sorry folks, that was supposed to go offlist...

-----Original Message-----
From: Jason DeFontes [mailto:jason@...]
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 11:46 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Interesting new papers- Eclipse, Epson FA


Robert,

You sent me a sample of Museo a while back, and at the time my Piezo rig
wasn't working, but I the color prints I made on it were nice. Now that I've
got a working Piezo setup I'd love to try a sample of the heavier weight
sheet.

Jason DeFontes
c/o AperServ Technologies
8304D Old Courthouse Road
Vienna, VA 22182

Thanks!

-Jason


-----Original Message-----
From: chameleon@... [mailto:chameleon@...]
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 11:11 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Interesting new papers- Eclipse, Epson FA


i do have samples available of the 365 gsm sheet for any willing
participants (sorry only 8 1/2 x 11 sheets).  please email at
rrex@... (ie, off-list) if you wish a sample.


If you do not wish to belong to Digital B&W, The Print, you may
unsubscribe by sending an email to:
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Antonis,

If and it is a big if, If I were planning to but a LF printer today, I would but the Epson 10,000 and use the MIS VariTones.

A number of reasons, but simply the 10000 has heads that adjust to the paper and from what I understand that rumor has it that the machine has software built in that will use an Epson CFS that has not been released yet.

Regards,

Michael J. Kravit, AIA
Architect/Photographer
www.kravit.net/photography
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