Digital BW, The Print

Any new interesting products (printers, papers, inks, etc.) announced  
at the show?  I haven't seen any reports yet.  What about the new  
Ilford baryta paper (inkjet, not lightjjet version), marketed as  
"Harman Professional Photo Inkjet paper".

Carl



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Same shit, different year. :)

Mark

On Nov 5, 2006, at 3:24 PM, Carl Schofield wrote:

> Any new interesting products (printers, papers, inks, etc.) announced
> at the show?  I haven't seen any reports yet.  What about the new
> Ilford baryta paper (inkjet, not lightjjet version), marketed as
> "Harman Professional Photo Inkjet paper".
>
> Carl
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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In a message dated 11/5/2006 7:12:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
list@... writes:

Any new  interesting products (printers, papers, inks, etc.) announced  
at the  show?  I haven't seen any reports yet.  What about the new   
Ilford baryta paper (inkjet, not lightjjet version), marketed as   
"Harman Professional Photo Inkjet  paper".

Carl




You didn't miss very much. Many booths were missing this year.
 
Richard (Brooklyn)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I very much enjoyed the show, primarily because there were many  
prints in black and white and color in Canon, Epson and HP's booths,  
as well as in various places around the show floor. I find that  
looking at prints is the best way to determine overall image quality.  
The Canon booth had some monochrome prints on Hahnemuele Fine Art  
Pearl paper on their iPF8000 (44" wide) and iPF9000 (60" wide) that  
were particularly nice since there was no glass in front of them. HP  
and Epson's booths had some great-looking monochrome prints as well.

All the best,

Andrew Darlow
-----------------------------------------
Editor, The Imaging Buffet
http://www.imagingbuffet.com
mailto:ad@...


On Nov 5, 2006, at 7:26 PM, CorrPro96@aol.com wrote:

>
> In a message dated 11/5/2006 7:12:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> list@... writes:
>
> Any new interesting products (printers, papers, inks, etc.) announced
> at the show? I haven't seen any reports yet. What about the new
> Ilford baryta paper (inkjet, not lightjjet version), marketed as
> "Harman Professional Photo Inkjet paper".
>
> Carl
>
> You didn't miss very much. Many booths were missing this year.
>
> Richard (Brooklyn)
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Andrew.  Did you see any prints on the the new Harman papers  
at the Ilford booth?
http://www.photographyblog.com/index.php/weblog/comments/ 
harman_inkjet_paper_debuts_in_usa/

On Nov 5, 2006, at 7:50 PM, Andrew Darlow wrote:

> I very much enjoyed the show, primarily because there were many
> prints in black and white and color in Canon, Epson and HP's booths,
> as well as in various places around the show floor. I find that
> looking at prints is the best way to determine overall image quality.
> The Canon booth had some monochrome prints on Hahnemuele Fine Art
> Pearl paper on their iPF8000 (44" wide) and iPF9000 (60" wide) that
> were particularly nice since there was no glass in front of them. HP
> and Epson's booths had some great-looking monochrome prints as well.
>
> All the best,
>
> Andrew Darlow
> -----------------------------------------
> Editor, The Imaging Buffet
> http://www.imagingbuffet.com
> mailto:ad@...
>
>
> On Nov 5, 2006, at 7:26 PM, CorrPro96@... wrote:
>
>>
>> In a message dated 11/5/2006 7:12:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>> list@... writes:
>>
>> Any new interesting products (printers, papers, inks, etc.) announced
>> at the show? I haven't seen any reports yet. What about the new
>> Ilford baryta paper (inkjet, not lightjjet version), marketed as
>> "Harman Professional Photo Inkjet paper".
>>
>> Carl
>>
>> You didn't miss very much. Many booths were missing this year.
>>
>> Richard (Brooklyn)
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>

Innova has released a new fiber semi-gloss paper that I like. It is
similar to the Innova F Gloss but the texture is a bit closer to the
Epson Semi-Gloss, only in a non plastic fiber paper. I liked the
samples in black and white that Jimmy at Shades Of Paper showed us
that were done on the new Cannon machine. This new paper isn't on his
web site yet but will be available, if not immediately, very soon. 

The problem I have with the Fiber Gloss prints as they stand now is
that the texture looks a little mechnical to me when the prints are
smaller than 16x20 or so. I didn't get that feeling with these smaller
prints on that semi gloss fiber paper. I really want to try working
with it. It is a PK paper with Epson printers.

Besides that paper, the HP Z series printers really kick butt in black
and white more than I expected, if you consider what all they can do
with ultra permanent color and no gloss problems of any kind to deal
with. As in the new inksets from Canon and Epson, the greens and blues
are more subtle and provide an expanded gamut there that I really
like. The HP machines utilize both the photo black, the matte black,
and two lighter blacks so your really talking quad inks within the
color set and they are very smooth with excellent dmax. They've got it
together.

The Cannon monochrome prints from the big printers are nice too, even
on gloss media providing a pretty smooth finish, though not as smooth
as I saw with the HP printers and the internal glop channel. 

The new Epson 3800 seems awesome for everything monochrome too
considering its technology and price point. They should do very well.
Like the HP and Canon, the blues and greens it is producing are a step
up from K3 Ultrachrome for sure. It's noticeable. Too bad it will be
another couple of years before that inkset is available on the big
machines. That's gonna hurt em. It's nice to have real choices out
there now.

John

Thanks for the report John.  I'll look forward to trying the new  
Innova semigloss FB paper.  I also want to get hold of some of the  
new Ilford/Harman baryta paper when it is released.  I guess only the  
matte version is compatible with pigment inks.

Carl

On Nov 5, 2006, at 8:26 PM, john dean wrote:

> Innova has released a new fiber semi-gloss paper that I like. It is
> similar to the Innova F Gloss but the texture is a bit closer to the
> Epson Semi-Gloss, only in a non plastic fiber paper. I liked the
> samples in black and white that Jimmy at Shades Of Paper showed us
> that were done on the new Cannon machine. This new paper isn't on his
> web site yet but will be available, if not immediately, very soon.
>
> The problem I have with the Fiber Gloss prints as they stand now is
> that the texture looks a little mechnical to me when the prints are
> smaller than 16x20 or so. I didn't get that feeling with these smaller
> prints on that semi gloss fiber paper. I really want to try working
> with it. It is a PK paper with Epson printers.
>
> Besides that paper, the HP Z series printers really kick butt in black
> and white more than I expected, if you consider what all they can do
> with ultra permanent color and no gloss problems of any kind to deal
> with. As in the new inksets from Canon and Epson, the greens and blues
> are more subtle and provide an expanded gamut there that I really
> like. The HP machines utilize both the photo black, the matte black,
> and two lighter blacks so your really talking quad inks within the
> color set and they are very smooth with excellent dmax. They've got it
> together.
>
> The Cannon monochrome prints from the big printers are nice too, even
> on gloss media providing a pretty smooth finish, though not as smooth
> as I saw with the HP printers and the internal glop channel.
>
> The new Epson 3800 seems awesome for everything monochrome too
> considering its technology and price point. They should do very well.
> Like the HP and Canon, the blues and greens it is producing are a step
> up from K3 Ultrachrome for sure. It's noticeable. Too bad it will be
> another couple of years before that inkset is available on the big
> machines. That's gonna hurt em. It's nice to have real choices out
> there now.
>
> John

I missed you at the show!  Amy & I were hoping you'd stop by and say hi!
We were busy all 3 days. I don't think it was as busy as last year, and
definitely smaller show vendor wise.
We had several b/w images displayed in our booth, from a variety of
printers.

Enjoyed the show, but broke down on 78 just outside Newark when I left and
sat on the shoulder for 2+ hours (freezing by *&^%# off) waiting for the tow
truck.

How was the Digital B/W get together?

Diana York ~ Hawk Mountain Papers
Professional Inkjet Photo & Fine Art Papers
toll free 866-409-4598
http://www.hawkmtpaper.com

Hi Carl:

No, unfortunately I didn't know about the new Harman papers.

The number of inkjet papers on the market is truly staggering!

All the best,

Andrew
-----------------------------------------
Andrew Darlow
Editor, The Imaging Buffet
http://www.imagingbuffet.com
mailto:ad@...


On Nov 5, 2006, at 8:22 PM, Carl Schofield wrote:

> Thanks Andrew. Did you see any prints on the the new Harman papers
> at the Ilford booth?
> http://www.photographyblog.com/index.php/weblog/comments/
> harman_inkjet_paper_debuts_in_usa/
>
> On Nov 5, 2006, at 7:50 PM, Andrew Darlow wrote:
>
> > I very much enjoyed the show, primarily because there were many
> > prints in black and white and color in Canon, Epson and HP's booths,
> > as well as in various places around the show floor. I find that
> > looking at prints is the best way to determine overall image  
> quality.
> > The Canon booth had some monochrome prints on Hahnemuele Fine Art
> > Pearl paper on their iPF8000 (44" wide) and iPF9000 (60" wide) that
> > were particularly nice since there was no glass in front of them. HP
> > and Epson's booths had some great-looking monochrome prints as well.
> >
> > All the best,
> >
> > Andrew Darlow
> > -----------------------------------------
> > Editor, The Imaging Buffet
> > http://www.imagingbuffet.com
> > mailto:ad@...
> >
> >
> > On Nov 5, 2006, at 7:26 PM, CorrPro96@... wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> In a message dated 11/5/2006 7:12:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> >> list@... writes:
> >>
> >> Any new interesting products (printers, papers, inks, etc.)  
> announced
> >> at the show? I haven't seen any reports yet. What about the new
> >> Ilford baryta paper (inkjet, not lightjjet version), marketed as
> >> "Harman Professional Photo Inkjet paper".
> >>
> >> Carl
> >>
> >> You didn't miss very much. Many booths were missing this year.
> >>
> >> Richard (Brooklyn)
> >>
> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>
> >>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Does anyone have the cross reference list so we can see how many are  
just re-branded?
Mark

On Nov 6, 2006, at 10:34 AM, Andrew Darlow wrote:

> The number of inkjet papers on the market is truly staggering!



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 11/5/06 8:05:44 PM, ad@... writes:


> I very much enjoyed the show, primarily because there were many 
> prints in black and white and color in Canon, Epson and HP's booths, 
> as well as in various places around the show floor. I find that 
> looking at prints is the best way to determine overall image quality. 
> The Canon booth had some monochrome prints on Hahnemuele Fine Art 
> Pearl paper on their iPF8000 (44" wide) and iPF9000 (60" wide) that 
> were particularly nice since there was no glass in front of them. HP 
> and Epson's booths had some great-looking monochrome prints as well.
> 
You neglect to mention the black and white prints from new Epson, HP, and 
Canon models you looked at in the ColorVision booth, Andy. As well as the paper 
prints at the lightbox, there were a series of large canvas prints in both 
color and B&W, all processed through PrintFIX PRO 2.0 profiles. The canvas prints, 
printed by   a fine art printing company called Numart in Quebec, were a real 
crowd pleaser. The 13x19 B&W images I was printing on Entrada Natural 
mysteriously disappeared about as fast as I cranked them out. It was hard to keep any 
samples on the table.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Division
DataColor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 11/6/06 6:38:46 AM, diana@... writes:


> 
> How was the Digital B/W get together?
> 
Perhaps someone will write a more comprehensive answer (though no one was 
volunteering!) but here's an overview from someone without a horse in the race, 
in that I didn't bring a print of the selected image (I tuned out on that 
process when the discussions started getting complicated; too much else to do 
before the show). 

The "A" prints were supposed to be straight prints from the file, all on the 
same paper at the same size. There was some variation in the interpretation of 
what "straight" meant. I was first taken by how much variation there was in 
the densities in the prints. I expected tonality differences (after all, there 
were some non-neutral systems used), and detail differences in dithering (yes, 
loupes were brought out for examination). But you could look at the wall full 
of prints from several feet away, and they were strikingly different. It 
wasn't the d-max, though one or two were notably weaker (Piezo sepia most 
notably); it was differences in what densities various sections of the image showed. 
What was over 50% in one print might be 25% in another. There was no stepped 
gray ramp included at the edge of the image, but if there had been, graphs of 
the measurements from the ramps on the various systems would have been all over 
the map, and never linear.

Another thing that interested me was that, while the prints were not rated in 
any way (everyone was too polite to share any observations that might hurt 
the feelings of the participants present) the straight 2400 AWB print came very 
close (to my eye) to matching the best neutral print there. Certainly closer 
to it than any other two were to one another. Gives me further hope for RIPless 
solutions.

There was a "B" series that were "interpretive" versions. I'm not sure that I 
felt the magic added in the individual interpretations strengthened the 
images shown, overall. A few might have made stonger images than the "A" version, 
but being on another wall, it was difficult to tell. The variation in the "B" 
series was even more striking than the "A" series, which would be expected.

So what I took home from this is that there is a striking lack of density 
management in all the systems present. Certainly a series of color managed color 
prints from a single image would have been extremely similar under the "A" 
criteria, and still probably closer than these "B" images under the open rules 
for the creative versions. It certainly makes a case for linearizing and 
profiling with a measurement device...

On a more social level, it was great to meet the participants, and the 
restaurant our gracious host selected was a good venue for post-critique 
discussions, though the group was too large to chat with everyone. Its too bad that 
geography would keep us from meeting like this more regularly.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Division
DataColor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi David:

You are correct! The prints in the ColorVision booth were indeed  
impressive (most were on canvas and watercolor paper if memory serves  
me correctly). I found the approach that PrintFIX Pro 2.0 takes to  
allow for excellent black and white and color from the same profiles  
to be a great advancement and I look forward to testing it soon.  
David gave me a print made on the Canon iPF5000 on Moab Entrada 300  
Natural. To my eyes, the print has a neutral to slightly warm look  
under both daylight and 3200K. The smoothness of tone and lack of  
color shift between the two light sources was what really stood out  
in my mind.

David also showed me a range of prints on a few different papers, all  
of which had a different look. I really was drawn to a cool image of  
a boat and sky on the Entrada 300 Natural.

I even have a photo of Mr. Tobie in front of one of his photographs  
which might just be shared with the world on my site very soon.

All the best,

Andrew
-----------------------------------------
Andrew Darlow
Editor, The Imaging Buffet
http://www.imagingbuffet.com
mailto:ad@andrewdarlow.com


On Nov 6, 2006, at 5:19 PM, CDTobie@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 11/5/06 8:05:44 PM, ad@... writes:
>
> > I very much enjoyed the show, primarily because there were many
> > prints in black and white and color in Canon, Epson and HP's booths,
> > as well as in various places around the show floor. I find that
> > looking at prints is the best way to determine overall image  
> quality.
> > The Canon booth had some monochrome prints on Hahnemuele Fine Art
> > Pearl paper on their iPF8000 (44" wide) and iPF9000 (60" wide) that
> > were particularly nice since there was no glass in front of them. HP
> > and Epson's booths had some great-looking monochrome prints as well.
> >
> You neglect to mention the black and white prints from new Epson,  
> HP, and
> Canon models you looked at in the ColorVision booth, Andy. As well  
> as the paper
> prints at the lightbox, there were a series of large canvas prints  
> in both
> color and B&W, all processed through PrintFIX PRO 2.0 profiles. The  
> canvas prints,
> printed by a fine art printing company called Numart in Quebec,  
> were a real
> crowd pleaser. The 13x19 B&W images I was printing on Entrada Natural
> mysteriously disappeared about as fast as I cranked them out. It  
> was hard to keep any
> samples on the table.
>
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Division
> DataColor Inc.
> CDTobie@colorvision.com
> www.colorvision.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 11/6/2006 6:20:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
CDTobie@... writes:

In a  message dated 11/6/06 6:38:46 AM, diana@...  writes:


> 
> How was the Digital B/W get together?
>  
Perhaps someone will write a more comprehensive answer (though no one was  
volunteering!) but here's an overview from someone without a horse in the  
race, 
in that I didn't bring a print of the selected image (I tuned out on  that 
process when the discussions started getting complicated; too much  else to 
do 
before the show). 



I think all of us there were struck by the similarities more than the  
differences in what we came up with as interpretations of the original. The  
straight prints were very different on the wall, while, as David says, the  densities 
in different areas were most noticeable. I was very interested in the  prints 
that Tyler sent, with several versions of split inksets. There should  have 
been a stepped gray ramp included on the edited prints, to show the  tweaking.
Tyler, I'd like to hear about the way you split and partitioned your  
Studioprint / Piezo inks.
 
Al in all, it was a great experience to meet so many of the  talented and 
knowledgeable members of this list. Thanks go to Amadou and to  CD for a really 
nice event. We need to do it again.
 
Richard (Brooklyn)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello:

I just posted a short overview and a link to a longer review about  
the show by photographer Steve Simon.
You can find my overview at <http://www.imagingbuffet.com>, or you  
can go directly to Steve's article on CreativePro.com here:
<http://www.creativepro.com/story/news/24881.html>

All the best,

Andrew Darlow

-----------------------------------------
Andrew Darlow
Editor, The Imaging Buffet
http://www.imagingbuffet.com
mailto:ad@...





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

John: <SNIP... The HP machines utilize both the photo black, the matte black, 
and two lighter blacks so your really talking quad inks within the color set 
and they are very smooth with excellent dmax. They've got it
together.  ... >

To expand this point on the new HP Z series...
-- on the Z3100 (11+1 inks), you can print all 4 onboard neutral inks (light 
gray, gray, photo black, matte black) on matte (or fine art) media. On gloss 
or semi-gloss  media, you can recruit 3 of the four (Photo black, not Matte), 
plus the Gloss Enhancer.
-- on the Z2100 (8 inks), you get 3 neutrals on matte media, or 2 on 
gloss/semi-gloss. No Gloss Enhancer on this printer.
-- you can choose to print with ONLY the neutrals or to also tint or mix with 
color inks with advance driver controls enabled.

And no, I don't have one yet, but this is what the folks in Barcelona are 
telling me.

Harald Johnson
author, "Mastering Digital Printing, Second Edition"
digital imaging & printing consultant