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First steps toward black and white digital printing

First steps toward black and white digital printing

2006-11-30 by Tad Doxsee

Hello,

This is my first post here. Sorry if I'm going over old ground. I've
read many of the posts here but I'm afraid most of them are over my
head. (I haven't learned all the jargon yet.)

I'd like to start exploring printing black and white digitally and am
wondering what a good next step for me would be. My source will be
scanned 6x7 b&w tmax 100 negs. So far, I've printed using my Epson
R800 priter using Epson inks on Epson Heavyweight Matte and Epson
Ultra Premium Glossy. I have Photoshop Elemenets, but not full Photoshop.

I'd like to get a bit closer to the results I've gotten from a wet
darkroom print on Oriental Seagull Fiber VC cooltone. What do you
recommend as my next step: diffenent paper or different ink or quad
tone rip? One or more of the above? Or should I investigate digital
inkjet negatives first. I'd appreciate any suggestions for a simple
first step.

Thanks,

Tad

Re: First steps toward black and white digital printing

2006-11-30 by mbutler355

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tad Doxsee" <doxsee@...> 
wrote:
>
> Hello,
> 
> This is my first post here. Sorry if I'm going over old ground. I've
> read many of the posts here but I'm afraid most of them are over my
> head. (I haven't learned all the jargon yet.)
> 
> I'd like to start exploring printing black and white digitally and am
> wondering what a good next step for me would be. My source will be
> scanned 6x7 b&w tmax 100 negs. So far, I've printed using my Epson
> R800 priter using Epson inks on Epson Heavyweight Matte and Epson
> Ultra Premium Glossy. I have Photoshop Elemenets, but not full Photoshop.
> 
> I'd like to get a bit closer to the results I've gotten from a wet
> darkroom print on Oriental Seagull Fiber VC cooltone. What do you
> recommend as my next step: diffenent paper or different ink or quad
> tone rip? One or more of the above? Or should I investigate digital
> inkjet negatives first. I'd appreciate any suggestions for a simple
> first step.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Tad
>
Hi Tad and welcome.

With the r800, I think you'd want to investigate the piezography system of black and white 
printing (piezography.com). On premium papers such as Hahnemule Photo Rag and 
Somerset Enhanced Velvet, you can make very pleasing cold-tone prints that look 
selenium-toned. 

However, if you eventually decide that you like the look of glossier papers, you'll probably 
get frustrated with piezo. In that case, you haven't lost much. If you decide you like it, you 
could easily step up to the r1800 and make larger prints.

Hope that helps a little.

Mike

Re: First steps toward black and white digital printing

2006-11-30 by Clayton Jones

Hello Tad,

Welcome to the forum.

>I'd like to start exploring printing black and white digitally...
>I'd like to get a bit closer to the results I've gotten from a wet
>darkroom print on Oriental Seagull Fiber VC cooltone. What do you
>recommend as my next step...I'd appreciate any suggestions for a 
>simple first step.

One of the simplest approaches with full tone control is using the
Epson R2400 with its K3 inks in ABW mode (Advanced Black and White),
and for the kind of results you are looking for I think the Crane
Silver Rag paper (SR) will do the job very well.  With this
combination you can easily fine tune the tone color to be any shade of
cool or warm which suits the picture best.

Article #9 at the link below explains how to set up and use the 2400
this way, and #9b deals specifically with SR paper.  It's a very
effective approach and quite easy to set up and get started.

The 2400 is a wonderful printer, and it can be used with other more
complex workflows (with RIPs, ICC profiles, other inks, etc) should
you ever want to explore other avenues.  It's a great way to get
started and produces very fine results with a minimum of complexity.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

RE: [Digital BW] First steps toward black and white digital printing

2006-11-30 by Paul Roark

>I'd like to start exploring printing black and white digitally ...

How large you want to print is one of the first issues.  At the 8x10 size,
there are excellent and very cheap alternatives for the Epson C88 and R220.
See my index at http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/index.htm

I highly recommend starting simple. 

> My source will be scanned 6x7 b&w tmax 100 negs.

My guess is that you'll eventually want to go up to 16 x 20 or beyond with
those negatives.  Once you're digital, the tools allow an output that is
larger than you've probably felt was the limit of your negatives.  That
might argue in favor of learning on an 8x10 printer and then jumping to the
3800 or a used 4000.  I find my medium format negatives are good for 22 x 28
without much problem. I have a used 7500 for that output.  I could actually
be rather happy with only my 220 and 7500 printers.

> So far, I've printed using my Epson
> R800 priter using Epson inks on Epson Heavyweight Matte 
> and Epson Ultra Premium Glossy.

With MIS inksets you can easily switch between glossy and matte papers.
With the smaller printers and simpler inksets (C88 EZ and 220 UT-R2)
swapping the black carts is all that is needed.  With the UT-3D and most of
the other inksets I've used, both matte and glossy are printable without
swapping inks at all.

>I have Photoshop Elements, but not full Photoshop.

Elements allows the use of ICCs in the Print Preview, which opens up a
number of the workflows.  Curves can be used only when they are on
adjustment layers and dragged from a source file to the working file, or
when they have been embedded into an ICC.  The descriptions of the workflows
goes into this.  Truth is, you'll want to go to full Photoshop eventually.
The tools that are omitted are important.

>I'd like to get a bit closer to the results I've gotten 
>from a wet darkroom print on Oriental Seagull Fiber VC cooltone. 

>What do you recommend as my next step: diffenent paper or 
>different ink or quad tone rip?

You need both different papers and a B&W inkset and/or printer.

The papers that look most like the wet darkroom air dried fiber prints are
the Crane Silver Rag, Innova F-Type Gloss, and H. Pearl.  See the top sample
pack at http://www.shadesofpaper.com/  These are "glossy" papers, but do not
have the RC look, and they are acid free.

As one thread also suggested recently, matte papers, once you get used to
them, still are favored by many here.  However, Matte Heavy Weight is
acidic.  It's not as bad as Enhanced Matte, but I'd avoid it.  There are
good acid free papers that are just as cheap.  I've been using PremierArt's
Matte BW 210 (also known as Premium Matte) lately.  See
http://www.premierimagingproducts.com/pm_mattebw.php and
http://store.ultrafineonline.com/prprma210gr2.html  


> Or should I investigate digital inkjet negatives first. 

I've been that route and do not recommend it.  The quality of the inkjets is
now so good there is little reason to avoid them -- assuming you're using a
good carbon-based inkset.  The best internegatives get expensive.  The
inkjet internegatives cannot be enlarged.  I used relatively cheap 8x10
Fujix (400 RGB ppi/inch) output and was able to enlarge it to 16 x 20, but I
find inkjet output better.  One huge advantage of inkjets is the ability to
print drafts/proofs cheaply and immediately make the adjustments to the
image file.  The turn-around time, calibration issues, etc. with the
internegatives just did not fit into a workflow that I found pleasing.  (Of
course, for those doing alternative processes using contact printing, the
inkjet internegative is very useful.)

Good luck with your B&W journey.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: First steps toward black and white digital printing

2006-11-30 by pglombick

Hi Tad.

I was in the same boat a year ago, except with a R300. With the R800 
you have the option of trying Piezo inks. I'm not sure about other 
inks sets, but they would probably work as well. 

Since then, I decided to buy an Epson R2400. I was pretty impressed 
eith the results out of the box using ABW. If you fiddle around 
enough, this may be all you need. I'm sure Clayton can help you more 
with that. I've seen some of his prints, and he is able to achive 
very good results with just the R2400 and ABW with Epson K3 inks.

I wanted to keep trying new things, so I puchased a set of 
Piezography NK7 inks. The switchover was fairl easy and you can 
always go back to K3 inks later. I purchased QTR for $50. So, with a 
minimum investment in time and money, you can get started on 3rd 
party inks and a RIP.

I have been pleased with the results amd am currently trying many 
different papers. I have not messed about with profiles yet, other 
than the canned profiles in QTR. That will be next. This set-up may 
not be the best if you do lots of colour printing due to the 
switching of ink carts.

Hope this helps. I thought a fellow digital b/w printing newbie 
opinion might help.

Paul 





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mbutler355" 
<mbutler355@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tad Doxsee" 
<doxsee@> 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> > 
> > This is my first post here. Sorry if I'm going over old ground. 
I've
> > read many of the posts here but I'm afraid most of them are over 
my
> > head. (I haven't learned all the jargon yet.)
> > 
> > I'd like to start exploring printing black and white digitally 
and am
> > wondering what a good next step for me would be. My source will be
> > scanned 6x7 b&w tmax 100 negs. So far, I've printed using my Epson
> > R800 priter using Epson inks on Epson Heavyweight Matte and Epson
> > Ultra Premium Glossy. I have Photoshop Elemenets, but not full 
Photoshop.
> > 
> > I'd like to get a bit closer to the results I've gotten from a wet
> > darkroom print on Oriental Seagull Fiber VC cooltone. What do you
> > recommend as my next step: diffenent paper or different ink or 
quad
> > tone rip? One or more of the above? Or should I investigate 
digital
> > inkjet negatives first. I'd appreciate any suggestions for a 
simple
> > first step.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > Tad
> >
> Hi Tad and welcome.
> 
> With the r800, I think you'd want to investigate the piezography 
system of black and white 
> printing (piezography.com). On premium papers such as Hahnemule 
Photo Rag and 
> Somerset Enhanced Velvet, you can make very pleasing cold-tone 
prints that look 
> selenium-toned. 
> 
> However, if you eventually decide that you like the look of 
glossier papers, you'll probably 
> get frustrated with piezo. In that case, you haven't lost much. If 
you decide you like it, you 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> could easily step up to the r1800 and make larger prints.
> 
> Hope that helps a little.
> 
> Mike
>

Re: First steps toward black and white digital printing

2006-12-01 by A.Zwaan

I am a myself new in the field of B&W digital printing and it took me about
a month, which I can afford being retired, to get accustomed to the various
aspects of not getting the print you are expecting. Color Management,
profiling, curves and proofing, everything was new to me. So I did a lot of
reading and trying, but to be able to print every subtle change you are
planning was not possible at first. And, to my opinion, printing B&W is much
more delicate than color printing. It can make or ruin the picture. If you
want the look of old fashioned barite, you will have to master everything
that is involved in printing.
Of course you can get a lot of advice from Paul Roark and others, but I
found it several times not completely correct. The results depended too much
on a lot of settings in Photoshop for instance. Tiny tweaks that gave an
enormous difference. So I developed my own system that, of course, is much
better.
As follows;

I use Epson R220 en MIS inks in the combination warm tone/cool tone.  That
works marvelous.
The paper is INNOVA ifa-14 (matte) but for the future that will be ifa-09
(white gloss).
That was the easy part.

How to profile the paper? I noticed that the downloaded profile was not
correct (I suppose that every printer needs its own profile). Making a 21
grey-step was easy and the print was scanned with my scanner (Epson V700).
Maybe not needed for this stage, but keep working in gray 8-bit and
gamma=2,2.
My scanner does not give L-values, but with the use of a graph made with the
values for RGB and L which you see when you make the grey-step, you can read
the L-values from the graph when you scan the printed 21-step.
Make the txt-file needed for QTR-Create-ICC-RGB.exe and do not forget that
you have to use Tab's. Otherwise it won't work. And do not use the value 0
(zero), but use 0,1. And there is always a positive increment needed. Twice
the same value for L and it won't work.
With the resulting profile the grey-step printed nicely (printed from
Photoshop with preview,color management and profile QTR-INNOVA etc.)

But then the really hard stuff. How to get on the screen what is coming out
of the printer!
I tried curves, I tried custom dot-gain, I tried adjustment layers and I
tried adjusting the monitor, but I did not get a consistent result. And I
kept forgetting about no colormanagement, assigning profile, with or without
proof (you see, I am not a trained expert), RGB or Gray-mode and so on.
I gave up and found something better.

Deciding on the settings for your screen is completely visual. You can never
get a complete likeness between a picture on screen and what is on the
print. It depends on your position for the screen, the balance between
highlights and shadows in the picture. It depends on the light in the room
and, I noticed, it depends on your being tired, your mood. If you get it
right (or almost) for one picture, it will be wrong for another.

I use a grey-step (AdobeRGB, Gray gamma=2,2) with 21 steps + the steps in
between. Arranged so that the steps in-between are placed not in between but
besides. You print that special grey step using the profile for the paper
you are using. Than relax and sit back a bit. In Photoshop you have that
grey-step on screen. No colormanagement and proof is off. Than you compare
the grey's on the print with the grey's on the screen and you decide on a
L-value (they are printed on the steps). Do so for all the 21 steps on the
print but do not follow a sequence. That can be misleading! No, it certainly
is! Every decision for a L-value has to be a new start. So start with step
4, than step 16, than 8, than 20 etc. Repeat it several times and make a
graph for step's 1 to 21 against L. You can see how much difference there is
between each 'measuring' of L. But you can draw a nice graph and use those
values for making, as above, of a profile (Let's say  screen-INNOVA.icc).
Place it in the right folder.

Now you can use that screen profile as proof (in Photoshop:  view / custom
profile etc.)
Open the grey-step in Photoshop (no colormanagement and proof = screen
profile) and compare your screen with the print. It starts to get close. How
close depends on your ability to guess the L-value (above), but if it
differs it can be changed quite easily. Make a new profile for which you
change the L-value for the step that is wrong. L a bit higher and it becomes
a bit brighter. I succeeded so it must not be too difficult.

Now you have a good screen profile and a working paper profile so the prints
must be good? Wrong. As abovementioned you can not get a good setting for
every picture. You will have to adapt it just before the final printing. But
there is the graphic card too. I suppose that every graphic card  has the
possibility to adjust color settings. Mine has. Brightness, contrast and
gamma. I keep the program for adjusting the monitor open. Than I make a
print of the picture I want to work on. Adjust the settings for brightness,
contrast and gamma (minor adjustments) and know now that what is on the
screen will be on the print.
But I have noticed that you need to repeat that just before the final print.
I am the instability in the system who is changing all the time.

This is the way I am working now and it works fine. I am completely in
control of every minor adjustment  needed to get a good print. Mainly
landscape in cloudy, misty or rainy atmosphere, and they do need a lot of
work to get it lively.

In include my grey-step's for those who want to have a look at it.

Greetings,

Anne Zwaan




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: First steps toward black and white digital printing

2006-12-02 by Tad Doxsee

All,

Thanks for the advise. So it looks like some first good steps would be
to try the Piezography Neutral K7/K6 inks on my R800 on some different
matte papers. I could also use my Epson Ultrachrome inks with the QTR
to try out some of the new "silver" glossy papers. Beyond that, it
looks like I need to make some major investments: Epson R2400 or
similar + full Photoshop. (To get the big prints from my 6x7
negatives, I'll also have to upgrade to a better scanner.) Some sent
me email directly suggesting I avoid the digital negative route. I
hope I understood that right. Thanks.

Tad

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