Yahoo Groups archive

Digital BW, The Print

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 22:56 UTC

Thread

Re: [Digital BW] Re: First steps toward black and white digital printing

Re: [Digital BW] Re: First steps toward black and white digital printing

2006-12-01 by Diane Fields

The only thing I would ask is if your monitor is calbrated--I didn't 
understand that from your post.

Best, Diane

----- Original Message ----- But then the really hard stuff. How to get on 
the screen what is coming out
of the printer!
<snip>.

Deciding on the settings for your screen is completely visual. You can never
get a complete likeness between a picture on screen and what is on the
print. It depends on your position for the screen, the balance between
highlights and shadows in the picture. It depends on the light in the room
and, I noticed, it depends on your being tired, your mood. If you get it
right (or almost) for one picture, it will be wrong for another.

<snip>
Greetings,

Anne Zwaan




I

Re: [Digital BW] Re: First steps toward black and white digital printing

2006-12-02 by Gary Brown

I think it would be nice, if people posting on this list include a place 
where their images can be seen. I realize that viewing images on the net 
isn't ideal, but it helps to know where they are coming from. Please, no 
replies that you already do that. This message is for the posters that 
don't.  Talk is becoming very cheap.

Gary

baffin@...
www.pbase.com/garyallenbrown
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "A.Zwaan" <azw@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 1:39 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: First steps toward black and white digital 
printing


I am a myself new in the field of B&W digital printing and it took me about
a month, which I can afford being retired, to get accustomed to the various
aspects of not getting the print you are expecting. Color Management,
profiling, curves and proofing, everything was new to me. So I did a lot of
reading and trying, but to be able to print every subtle change you are
planning was not possible at first. And, to my opinion, printing B&W is much
more delicate than color printing. It can make or ruin the picture. If you
want the look of old fashioned barite, you will have to master everything
that is involved in printing.
Of course you can get a lot of advice from Paul Roark and others, but I
found it several times not completely correct. The results depended too much
on a lot of settings in Photoshop for instance. Tiny tweaks that gave an
enormous difference. So I developed my own system that, of course, is much
better.
As follows;

I use Epson R220 en MIS inks in the combination warm tone/cool tone.  That
works marvelous.
The paper is INNOVA ifa-14 (matte) but for the future that will be ifa-09
(white gloss).
That was the easy part.

How to profile the paper? I noticed that the downloaded profile was not
correct (I suppose that every printer needs its own profile). Making a 21
grey-step was easy and the print was scanned with my scanner (Epson V700).
Maybe not needed for this stage, but keep working in gray 8-bit and
gamma=2,2.
My scanner does not give L-values, but with the use of a graph made with the
values for RGB and L which you see when you make the grey-step, you can read
the L-values from the graph when you scan the printed 21-step.
Make the txt-file needed for QTR-Create-ICC-RGB.exe and do not forget that
you have to use Tab's. Otherwise it won't work. And do not use the value 0
(zero), but use 0,1. And there is always a positive increment needed. Twice
the same value for L and it won't work.
With the resulting profile the grey-step printed nicely (printed from
Photoshop with preview,color management and profile QTR-INNOVA etc.)

But then the really hard stuff. How to get on the screen what is coming out
of the printer!
I tried curves, I tried custom dot-gain, I tried adjustment layers and I
tried adjusting the monitor, but I did not get a consistent result. And I
kept forgetting about no colormanagement, assigning profile, with or without
proof (you see, I am not a trained expert), RGB or Gray-mode and so on.
I gave up and found something better.

Deciding on the settings for your screen is completely visual. You can never
get a complete likeness between a picture on screen and what is on the
print. It depends on your position for the screen, the balance between
highlights and shadows in the picture. It depends on the light in the room
and, I noticed, it depends on your being tired, your mood. If you get it
right (or almost) for one picture, it will be wrong for another.

I use a grey-step (AdobeRGB, Gray gamma=2,2) with 21 steps + the steps in
between. Arranged so that the steps in-between are placed not in between but
besides. You print that special grey step using the profile for the paper
you are using. Than relax and sit back a bit. In Photoshop you have that
grey-step on screen. No colormanagement and proof is off. Than you compare
the grey's on the print with the grey's on the screen and you decide on a
L-value (they are printed on the steps). Do so for all the 21 steps on the
print but do not follow a sequence. That can be misleading! No, it certainly
is! Every decision for a L-value has to be a new start. So start with step
4, than step 16, than 8, than 20 etc. Repeat it several times and make a
graph for step's 1 to 21 against L. You can see how much difference there is
between each 'measuring' of L. But you can draw a nice graph and use those
values for making, as above, of a profile (Let's say  screen-INNOVA.icc).
Place it in the right folder.

Now you can use that screen profile as proof (in Photoshop:  view / custom
profile etc.)
Open the grey-step in Photoshop (no colormanagement and proof = screen
profile) and compare your screen with the print. It starts to get close. How
close depends on your ability to guess the L-value (above), but if it
differs it can be changed quite easily. Make a new profile for which you
change the L-value for the step that is wrong. L a bit higher and it becomes
a bit brighter. I succeeded so it must not be too difficult.

Now you have a good screen profile and a working paper profile so the prints
must be good? Wrong. As abovementioned you can not get a good setting for
every picture. You will have to adapt it just before the final printing. But
there is the graphic card too. I suppose that every graphic card  has the
possibility to adjust color settings. Mine has. Brightness, contrast and
gamma. I keep the program for adjusting the monitor open. Than I make a
print of the picture I want to work on. Adjust the settings for brightness,
contrast and gamma (minor adjustments) and know now that what is on the
screen will be on the print.
But I have noticed that you need to repeat that just before the final print.
I am the instability in the system who is changing all the time.

This is the way I am working now and it works fine. I am completely in
control of every minor adjustment  needed to get a good print. Mainly
landscape in cloudy, misty or rainy atmosphere, and they do need a lot of
work to get it lively.

In include my grey-step's for those who want to have a look at it.

Greetings,

Anne Zwaan




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as 
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to 
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same 
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep 
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. 
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the 
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W 
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from 
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and 
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND 
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU 
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY 
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, 
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND 
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE 
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY 
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR 
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY 
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

Yahoo! Groups Links

Re: [Digital BW] Re: First steps toward black and white digital printing

2006-12-02 by Steve Kale

I find this a rather peculiar post.  This forum is to help people print B&W
photographs.  Frankly I couldn¹t care less as to whether the leading voices
on this forum could take an adequate photograph.  Even if they could take a
³great² photograph I might not find their style appealing and so ³not
great².  (For the record I did take a look at your website and did like some
of your work.) What I do care about is their technical expertise in
PRINTING. Of course, in any net based community it is very difficult to
judge a participant¹s ability.  It is impossible, short of in person visits
and print exchanges, to view their work.  But listen in here long enough and
like any community of this nature one can pick out those whom one should
spend a little more time listening to than those one shouldn¹t.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: Gary Brown <baffin@...>
Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 11:26:26 -0700
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: First steps toward black and white digital
printing

 
 
 

I think it would be nice, if people posting on this list include a place
where their images can be seen. I realize that viewing images on the net
isn't ideal, but it helps to know where they are coming from. Please, no
replies that you already do that. This message is for the posters that
don't.  Talk is becoming very cheap.

Gary

baffin@... <mailto:baffin%40cox.net>
www.pbase.com/garyallenbrown




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.