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IMPROVING DMAX OF NK7 inks

IMPROVING DMAX OF NK7 inks

2007-01-09 by benong@bigpond.net.au

I posted a similar question to this a while ago when I wasn't happy with NK7 Dmax, I was surprised to read Paul's comment about the EBONI black being okay to swap into the system, because when I asked the same question several people replied saying it was not that simple, including Jon Cone himself. 

From memory I think the main reason was that the 'tone' of the eboni black is not the same as the NK7 inks. Also some people said it has a different 'flow' property to the NK7's and might cause problems like clogging. So that scared me off and I never tried it.

Instead I found this solution, and get a Dmax of 1.65 now on Hahn PhotoRag. Which is okay I guess.

When ready to print I convert my image from GG 2.2 to Adobe RGB '98 in Photoshop and then go to IMAGE then ADJUSTMENTS then SELECTIVE COLOUR. I then select the BLACK channel, and just make the blacks +15 or so darker. Then I convert back to Grey Gamma 2.2 and print as normal through QTR. 

It's actually a variation of a method I found on the Piezography website, there technique involved selecting the blacks and making them darker through a quick mask or something??? It's basically doing the same thing as my way but it's more complicated and I couldn't understand it!? 

Anyways check out the website and give my way a go too, see what you think.
I hope this helped.

P.S   There was a Portfolio Black ink that Jon Cone used to make for the old 4 Black system that gave a much better DMAX. Over 1.75 I think. It wasn't Pure Pigment though. Maybe you could swap that in??? What do others think of that out there???


Thanks

Re: [Digital BW] IMPROVING DMAX OF NK7 inks

2007-01-09 by Carolyn Frayn

On 9-Jan-07, at 3:50 AM, benong@... wrote:

> When ready to print I convert my image from GG 2.2 to Adobe RGB '98  
> in Photoshop and then go to IMAGE then ADJUSTMENTS then SELECTIVE  
> COLOUR. I then select the BLACK channel, and just make the blacks  
> +15 or so darker. Then I convert back to Grey Gamma 2.2 and print  
> as normal through QTR.
>
> It's actually a variation of a method I found on the Piezography  
> website, there technique involved selecting the blacks and making  
> them darker through a quick mask or something??? It's basically  
> doing the same thing as my way but it's more complicated and I  
> couldn't understand it!?

Are you referring to curve and levels adjustments using contrast  
masks? An effective approach when editing selected range and values.

IMO, boosting the darkest value(s) is best obtained in a curve  
adjustment or two... or a mix of levels and curves, with or without  
masking. You are then minimizing destruction, and allowing a smoother  
edit to your tonal range..

Carolyn
---
http://www.carolynfrayn.com

RE: [Digital BW] IMPROVING DMAX OF NK7 inks

2007-01-09 by Paul Roark

> ... I was surprised to read Paul's comment about the EBONI 
> black being okay to swap into the system, because when I 
> asked the same question several people replied saying it 
> was not that simple ...

No guarantees here, but I think it's worth a try.

> I think the main reason was that the 'tone' of the eboni black 
> is not the same as the NK7 inks.

It is a relatively neutral black.  By the time the black ink comes in, we're
not that sensitive to slight tone differences.  It's just too dark down in
the deep shadows to see much.  The only tone differential problems I've seen
in these deep shadows are with very warm MK inks like the Epson MK.  In
general, a cooler black is simply going to look deeper.  That is clearly one
reason for Eboni's success.  The Epson MK often actually has a higher dmax,
but it almost always looks less black due to its warmer tone.

> Also some people said it has a different 'flow' property to the
> NK7's and might cause problems like clogging.

Lots of people are using it in Epson printers.  I don't hear much about
clogged Eboni jets.  The only problem I've found with it is that it does not
like to be in a system that has dye in it.

> Instead I found this solution, and get a Dmax of 1.65 now on 
> Hahn PhotoRag. Which is okay I guess.

OK, but still not great.

Be sure the black ink load is properly set via the Black Boost.  This can be
done by trial and error.  However, it's faster to use a 21-step test curve
and a straight line black curve with 100% load.  I use the first Calibration
print to set this.  However, you can do this later quickly by making a curve
that prints only the black ink at 100%.  In Curve Creator, make a straight
line black ink curve with the Default Ink Limit and Black Boost at 100.
(Leave the ink limit box by the black ink blank.)  In the Black (K) ink box
have "Load Curve."  Push the Curve button just to the right of the box.  Put
only (0,0) and (100,100) in the blank table as the end points of the curve.
Preview the curve to see that it is a straight line. Create the curve and
save it in the appropriate Profiles folder for your printer. Print a 21-step
test print and see where the black density is the highest -- a spectro or
even just a flatbed scanner can do this.  Use that 21-step number as the
Black Boost setting in your actual paper profile Black Boost box.  See if
that works.  It should have virtually no impact on the rest of the profile,
just taking the black ink limit to what is needed for the best dmax.  

As I've mentioned before, I'd use 2880 as the resolution.  If the profile is
for 1440, then that's a different problem.  You'll have to re-linearize the
curve to change it to 2880.  (What do Piezo QTR profiles use?)   

>When ready to print I convert my image from GG 2.2 to 
>Adobe RGB '98 in Photoshop and then go to IMAGE then 
>ADJUSTMENTS then SELECTIVE COLOUR. I then select the BLACK 
>channel, and just make the blacks +15 or so darker. Then 
>I convert back to Grey Gamma 2.2 and print as normal through QTR. 

This should not be necessary if the system has a good dmax and the Photoshop
levels and other usual editing tools have been appropriately used.  I
remember these workflow gimmicks from my Piezo days, but I think they are
not good substitutes for a decent dmax in the first place.  They will not
increase the dmax.  What they do is make sure you have enough of the image
at or close to 100% black so that the image has a good black "foundation."

One reason I now work at Gray Gamma 2.2 (and then apply a layer to convert
to the QTR or IJC straight line output) is that it compresses the black
tones.  What this does is give me a reserve of information in that hidden
deep shadow zone that I can utilize to fine tune the deep shadows without
having the image and file break down due to insufficient information or
steps left to work with down there.

> ... There was a Portfolio Black ink that Jon Cone used to make for 
> the old 4 Black system that gave a much better DMAX. Over 1.75 
> I think. It wasn't Pure Pigment though

It appears to have dye or some other similar fast-fading substance in it.
I'd avoid it for display prints.  As its name implies, I would use it only
for portfolios that are not going to be in the light for any extended
periods.  (Actually, I would simply not use it at all.)

Hope this helps.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] IMPROVING DMAX OF NK7 inks

2007-01-09 by john dean

There is no need to increase the dmax of this inkset if you are making
good curves. I don't have any problems at all and my clients always
comment on the nice smooth deep density of the black areas, even when
they are very large. I would imagine that any black pigment that is
darker than this K has some dye in it, for better or worse.

john

Re: [Digital BW] IMPROVING DMAX OF NK7 inks

2007-01-09 by Carl Schofield

I consider the NK7 K borderline acceptable - barely 1.6 dmax on HPR  
and usually only 1.5+.

Carl
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Jan 9, 2007, at 1:37 PM, john dean wrote:

> There is no need to increase the dmax of this inkset if you are making
> good curves. I don't have any problems at all and my clients always
> comment on the nice smooth deep density of the black areas, even when
> they are very large. I would imagine that any black pigment that is
> darker than this K has some dye in it, for better or worse.
>
> john

Re: [Digital BW] IMPROVING DMAX OF NK7 inks

2007-01-09 by john dean

I'm averaging 1.76 on Photorag with QTR and a 7000 and that's better
than I ever got with Ultrachrome. That's good enough for me. However,
I am very curious as to what the HP Z3100 is going to come up with.

john
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I consider the NK7 K borderline acceptable - barely 1.6 dmax on HPR  
> and usually only 1.5+.
> 
> Carl
> 
> On Jan 9, 2007, at 1:37 PM, john dean wrote:
> 
> > There is no need to increase the dmax of this inkset if you are making
> > good curves. I don't have any problems at all and my clients always
> > comment on the nice smooth deep density of the black areas, even when
> > they are very large. I would imagine that any black pigment that is
> > darker than this K has some dye in it, for better or worse.
> >
> > john
>

Re: IMPROVING DMAX OF NK7 inks

2007-01-09 by Tyler Boley

1.76 is very good indeed John. I can barely reach 1.6 with the Epson
MK in the 9800. Frustrating, and further reason to use it only for
color or heavily toned mono.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
<deanwork2003@...> wrote:
>
> I'm averaging 1.76 on Photorag with QTR and a 7000 and that's better
> than I ever got with Ultrachrome. That's good enough for me. However,
> I am very curious as to what the HP Z3100 is going to come up with.
> 
> john
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > I consider the NK7 K borderline acceptable - barely 1.6 dmax on HPR  
> > and usually only 1.5+.
> > 
> > Carl
> > 
> > On Jan 9, 2007, at 1:37 PM, john dean wrote:
> > 
> > > There is no need to increase the dmax of this inkset if you are
making
> > > good curves. I don't have any problems at all and my clients always
> > > comment on the nice smooth deep density of the black areas, even
when
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > > they are very large. I would imagine that any black pigment that is
> > > darker than this K has some dye in it, for better or worse.
> > >
> > > john
> >
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: IMPROVING DMAX OF NK7 inks

2007-01-09 by Ernst Dinkla

Tyler Boley wrote:
> 1.76 is very good indeed John. I can barely reach 1.6 with the Epson
> MK in the 9800. Frustrating, and further reason to use it only for
> color or heavily toned mono.
> Tyler

About 1.7 here with Eboni on a 9000 and HPR. The Eboni in the 
10000 peaks at 1.71 on HPR in the calibration target made with 
QTR.

Higher resolutions and finer droplets are not always an 
advantage. And the 9800 MK scored better on Epson paper than 
the same printer does with Eboni on Epson paper. The 9600's 
and 10000's are probably best for quad tasks if the last get a 
proper QTR driver.

Met vriendelijke groeten,Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

[Digital BW] Re: IMPROVING DMAX OF NK7 inks

2007-01-09 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla
<E.Dinkla@...> wrote:
>
> Tyler Boley wrote:
> > 1.76 is very good indeed John. I can barely reach 1.6 with the Epson
> > MK in the 9800. Frustrating, and further reason to use it only for
> > color or heavily toned mono.
> > Tyler
> 
> About 1.7 here with Eboni on a 9000 and HPR. The Eboni in the 
> 10000 peaks at 1.71 on HPR in the calibration target made with 
> QTR.
> 
> Higher resolutions and finer droplets are not always an 
> advantage.

yes exactly, and John's 7000 is working to his advantage in that regard.
I'm going to see about larger drop sizes for the 9800, I belive lower
quality print settings go to a different drop size set, or move one
larger. Then selecting the smaller sizes in all but K could keep
things smooth.
More tests to do, no end of fun...

> And the 9800 MK scored better on Epson paper than 
> the same printer does with Eboni on Epson paper. The 9600's 
> and 10000's are probably best for quad tasks if the last get a 
> proper QTR driver.

Yup, sticking with the 9600 for quads here.
Tyler

Hi Carolyn (was IMPROVING DMAX OF NK7)

2007-01-10 by Clayton Jones

Hi Carolyn,

Nice to see you in here!  

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] Re: IMPROVING DMAX OF NK7 inks

2007-01-10 by Ernst Dinkla

Tyler Boley wrote:

>> And the 9800 MK scored better on Epson paper than 
>> the same printer does with Eboni on Epson paper. The 9600's 
>> and 10000's are probably best for quad tasks if the last get a 
>> proper QTR driver.
> 
> Yup, sticking with the 9600 for quads here.


There's a company in Amsterdam that sells Epsons to silkscreen 
printers for making film positives. As soon as they discovered 
that the 9800 didn't produce as nice an opaque black as the 
9600 they got most of the 9600's left in the distribution 
channel here.


Met vriendelijke groeten,Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

Re: [Digital BW] Hi Carolyn (was IMPROVING DMAX OF NK7)

2007-01-10 by Carolyn Frayn

On 9-Jan-07, at 5:27 PM, Clayton Jones wrote:

> Hi Carolyn,
>
> Nice to see you in here!

Thanks Clayton, it's been a while, nice to see familiar "faces"... :)

C

---
http://www.carolynfrayn.com

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