Digital BW, The Print

We produce astronomy prints. As you can image, we have a lot of black 
space between stars, galaxies and planets. Usually we use Epson Photo 
Paper. However, recently, I've been experimenting the Epson Matte 
Paper Heavyweight on a 1290 using OEM Match inks, NMC CIS, with 1290 
Profiles from Ian Lyons.

I like the "velvet" deep blacks this combination gives. But...the 
black are subject to rub off and are very easily scratched. Not 
exactly "rub off", but touching the black surface leaves a smudge, 
visible at certain angles. The black doesn't exactly rub off, but the 
velvet texture gets burnished. Other colors may do this, but it 
really shows up in the black areas. Annoying. Also, I noted that the 
colors scratch easily.

For sprays, I tried:

Lacquer Mat Pearl
Lacquer Mat Diamond
Sureguard Lustre #921

to no avail. The blacks still smudge.

I like these blacks with this combo..but does anyone have any 
suggestions about sprays, or how other ideas how I can avoid this 
annoying problem.

James Turley

--
Sky Image Lab
Saratoga, CA
http://www.skyimagelab.com
mailto:jturley@...

I have used Sureguard ClearGloss #910 directly on the
print and got beautiful blacks that do not smudge at
all. Unfortunately for my application, it deepens the
inks so well that the higlights comparatively become
too light and skintones (i am a  portrait
photographer) look blotchy.
FYI I use piezo inks
Benoit
--- "James Turley - Sky Lab (E-mail)"
<jturley@...> wrote:
> We produce astronomy prints. As you can image, we
> have a lot of black 
> space between stars, galaxies and planets. Usually
> we use Epson Photo 
> Paper. However, recently, I've been experimenting
> the Epson Matte 
> Paper Heavyweight on a 1290 using OEM Match inks,
> NMC CIS, with 1290 
> Profiles from Ian Lyons.
> 
> I like the "velvet" deep blacks this combination
> gives. But...the 
> black are subject to rub off and are very easily
> scratched. Not 
> exactly "rub off", but touching the black surface
> leaves a smudge, 
> visible at certain angles. The black doesn't exactly
> rub off, but the 
> velvet texture gets burnished. Other colors may do
> this, but it 
> really shows up in the black areas. Annoying. Also,
> I noted that the 
> colors scratch easily.
> 
> For sprays, I tried:
> 
> Lacquer Mat Pearl
> Lacquer Mat Diamond
> Sureguard Lustre #921
> 
> to no avail. The blacks still smudge.
> 
> I like these blacks with this combo..but does anyone
> have any 
> suggestions about sprays, or how other ideas how I
> can avoid this 
> annoying problem.
> 
> James Turley
> 
> --
> Sky Image Lab
> Saratoga, CA
> http://www.skyimagelab.com
> mailto:jturley@...
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files,
> Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are
> often being updated. The page is at:
> 
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have
> one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of
> earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to
> change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal
> attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message
> archives and the various resources on the homepage. 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! 
http://auctions.yahoo.com

I have used Sureguard ClearGloss #910 directly on the
print and got beautiful blacks that do not smudge at
all. Unfortunately for my application, it deepens the
inks so well that the higlights comparatively become
too light and skintones (i am a  portrait
photographer) look blotchy.
FYI I use piezo inks
Benoit

--- "James Turley - Sky Lab (E-mail)"
<jturley@...> wrote:
> We produce astronomy prints. As you can image, we
> have a lot of black 
> space between stars, galaxies and planets. Usually
> we use Epson Photo 
> Paper. However, recently, I've been experimenting
> the Epson Matte 
> Paper Heavyweight on a 1290 using OEM Match inks,
> NMC CIS, with 1290 
> Profiles from Ian Lyons.
> 
> I like the "velvet" deep blacks this combination
> gives. But...the 
> black are subject to rub off and are very easily
> scratched. Not 
> exactly "rub off", but touching the black surface
> leaves a smudge, 
> visible at certain angles. The black doesn't exactly
> rub off, but the 
> velvet texture gets burnished. Other colors may do
> this, but it 
> really shows up in the black areas. Annoying. Also,
> I noted that the 
> colors scratch easily.
> 
> For sprays, I tried:
> 
> Lacquer Mat Pearl
> Lacquer Mat Diamond
> Sureguard Lustre #921
> 
> to no avail. The blacks still smudge.
> 
> I like these blacks with this combo..but does anyone
> have any 
> suggestions about sprays, or how other ideas how I
> can avoid this 
> annoying problem.
> 
> James Turley
> 
> --
> Sky Image Lab
> Saratoga, CA
> http://www.skyimagelab.com
> mailto:jturley@...
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files,
> Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are
> often being updated. The page is at:
> 
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have
> one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of
> earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to
> change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal
> attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message
> archives and the various resources on the homepage. 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! 
http://auctions.yahoo.com

I use the Plug and Play (OEM Match) 6-color inks from Mediastreet. 
These are exact matches to the Epson Dye based 1280 inks. Not pigs.

Remember, the blacks don't rub off, but the texture changes. If I rub 
a gloved finger across a black area, and hold to the light, I can 
clearly see the imprint of the finger trace.

I'm sorry but if you were in a museum you would be told to leave.  If 
you are in a lab you should know better.  There isn't a media out 
there that won't show fat finger prints on it, glossy or otherwise.

I may be way wide here but feel the expectation in unreasonable.
If you are looking for handling prints, then you may just have to 
accept that they degrade with handling.

> 
<Remember, the blacks don't rub off, but the texture changes. If I 
___rub a gloved finger across a black area___, and hold to the light, 
I can clearly see the imprint of the finger trace.>

You don't do it to the lens of the telescope, the surface of paper 
isn't any different.

Cleavis (in a huff but parental type love :-)

I have used Sureguard ClearGloss #910 directly on the
print and got beautiful blacks that do not smudge at
all. Unfortunately for my application, it deepens the
inks so well that the higlights comparatively become
too light and skintones (i am a  portrait
photographer) look blotchy.
FYI I use piezo inks
Benoit

--- "James Turley - Sky Lab (E-mail)"
<jturley@...> wrote:
> We produce astronomy prints. As you can image, we
> have a lot of black 
> space between stars, galaxies and planets. Usually
> we use Epson Photo 
> Paper. However, recently, I've been experimenting
> the Epson Matte 
> Paper Heavyweight on a 1290 using OEM Match inks,
> NMC CIS, with 1290 
> Profiles from Ian Lyons.
> 
> I like the "velvet" deep blacks this combination
> gives. But...the 
> black are subject to rub off and are very easily
> scratched. Not 
> exactly "rub off", but touching the black surface
> leaves a smudge, 
> visible at certain angles. The black doesn't exactly
> rub off, but the 
> velvet texture gets burnished. Other colors may do
> this, but it 
> really shows up in the black areas. Annoying. Also,
> I noted that the 
> colors scratch easily.
> 
> For sprays, I tried:
> 
> Lacquer Mat Pearl
> Lacquer Mat Diamond
> Sureguard Lustre #921
> 
> to no avail. The blacks still smudge.
> 
> I like these blacks with this combo..but does anyone
> have any 
> suggestions about sprays, or how other ideas how I
> can avoid this 
> annoying problem.
> 
> James Turley
> 
> --
> Sky Image Lab
> Saratoga, CA
> http://www.skyimagelab.com
> mailto:jturley@...
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files,
> Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are
> often being updated. The page is at:
> 
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have
> one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of
> earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to
> change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal
> attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message
> archives and the various resources on the homepage. 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions! 
http://auctions.yahoo.com

> I use the Plug and Play (OEM Match) 6-color inks from Mediastreet.
> These are exact matches to the Epson Dye based 1280 inks. Not pigs.
> 
> Remember, the blacks don't rub off, but the texture changes. If I rub
> a gloved finger across a black area, and hold to the light, I can
> clearly see the imprint of the finger trace.

Around here we call that scuffing.

Wish I had a cure.

Depending on your use you could laminate, or brush on a few coats of glaze
or varnish. Others would be more qualified to coach you in that.

If I remember your original post, these are "work" prints - as in, you use
them at work - rather than fine art? What if you just keep them in clear
plastic sleeves or envelopes?

Todd

I use astro images to sell as prints, matted prints, or framed on my 
website at http://www.skyimagelab.com. So, they're not work prints. 

Re fat fingering the prints, just a light touch will scuff them on 
Espon MPH. Almost no pressure.  However, the same print using Epson 
Photo, almost no amount of fat fingering will scuff. 

Well...perhaps I'm expecting too much of the Matte finish. I guess 
I'll go back to the "Glossy" look, although I really like the velvet 
blacks in MPH. The Photo papers seem more resistant to abuse. I as 
hoping some kind of overspray may fix it. 

I'll try Krylon Clear Coat over Lacquer Mat Red. 

Or..some kinda of profile issue...like laying down too much black.

Thanks for all the feedback. I'll post my results, if any.

James
Sky Image Lab

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "lyonscox" <lyonscox@m...> 
wrote:
> You don't do it to the lens of the telescope, the surface of paper 
> isn't any different.

Yeah...but usually our telescope optics are Multi Coated to protect 
them from greasy fingers and light dispersion. I'm kinda am looking 
for something like that with my matte paper.
> 
> Cleavis (in a huff but parental type love :-)

I always have something to learn form my elders :-) 
Thanks!

James

In a message dated 1/26/02 2:02:03 AM, lyonscox@... writes:

<< I'm sorry but if you were in a museum you would be told to leave.  If 
you are in a lab you should know better.  There isn't a media out 
there that won't show fat finger prints on it, glossy or otherwise.

I may be way wide here but feel the expectation in unreasonable.
If you are looking for handling prints, then you may just have to 
accept that they degrade with handling. >>

Hi Clevis:

I agree to a point, but the platinum/palladium, gelatin silver and color 
c-prints I've made are not even close to being as fragile as many matte 
inkjet papers.  The Royal Plush deep blacks are so succeptible to that 
"shining" that I stopped using it.  Archival matte sees to have very few 
problems and Epson Heavyweight matte isn't so bad in my opinion.  I must say 
that the MIS VM inks on MPH from the recent exchange were as dense as I've 
seen any dye-very impressive.

-Andy Darlow

Photography, Digital Print Consulting and Custom Editions
Andrew Darlow Images International
www.andydarlow.com
andy@...
Toll free- 1-877-Adarlow

Todd wrote in response to James:

> > I use the Plug and Play (OEM Match) 6-color inks from Mediastreet.
> > These are exact matches to the Epson Dye based 1280 inks. Not pigs.
> >
> > Remember, the blacks don't rub off, but the texture changes. If I rub
> > a gloved finger across a black area, and hold to the light, I can
> > clearly see the imprint of the finger trace.
>
>Around here we call that scuffing.
>
>Wish I had a cure.
>
>Depending on your use you could laminate, or brush on a few coats of glaze
>or varnish. Others would be more qualified to coach you in that. [snip]


Didn't both Martin Wesley and Robert Morrison report experimenting 
with coatings at some length a few months ago? And couldn't James 
look those threads up somehow? I should know how, but I don't.

Sam