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New printer time?

New printer time?

2007-02-25 by turn9453

Hello,

Are the new Epson printers using the K3 inks that much better then the
SP2200 for instance? I have an SP2200, but haven't used it much. I'm
thinking of gearing up for more serious involvement in my photography
and had scound thoughts about the printer I currently have. 

I came from a very traditional B&W large format background, but have
gone digital and trying my hand at color as well. I'm starting to pour
through all the info, but there is allot of it.

Any info/tips would be appreciated.

Pat
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pturner/

Re: [Digital BW] New printer time?

2007-02-25 by BKPhoto@aol.com

Pat-
 
 I'd image you'll get a number of options about this. The 2200 continues to be an excellent printer; however, the K3 inks are demonstrably better than the older K2 inks. K3 has improve gamut and the ABW option, combined with K, LK and LLK inks, produce grayscale prints with less metamerism. Many photographers are finding ABW more than adequate for their needs, provided you stay on the OEM (original equipment manufacturer's path). If you decide to print on non-OEM papers, you'll need to do a lot of tweaking through the print driver.
    Bill Kennedy
 Austin, Texas   
Show quoted textHide quoted text
 -----Original Message-----
 From: patrick.t@...
 To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 7:37 AM
 Subject: [Digital BW] New printer time?
 
     Hello,
 
 Are the new Epson printers using the K3 inks that much better then the
 SP2200 for instance? I have an SP2200, but haven't used it much. I'm
 thinking of gearing up for more serious involvement in my photography
 and had scound thoughts about the printer I currently have. 
 
 I came from a very traditional B&W large format background, but have
 gone digital and trying my hand at color as well. I'm starting to pour
 through all the info, but there is allot of it.
 
 Any info/tips would be appreciated.
 
 Pat
 http://www.flickr.com/photos/pturner/
 
      
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL.  Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] New printer time?

2007-02-25 by CorrPro96@aol.com

In a message dated 2/25/2007 3:30:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
patrick.t@... writes:

Hello,

Are the new Epson printers using the K3 inks that much  better then the
SP2200 for instance? I have an SP2200, but haven't used it  much. I'm
thinking of gearing up for more serious involvement in my  photography
and had scound thoughts about the printer I currently have.  

I came from a very traditional B&W large format background, but  have
gone digital and trying my hand at color as well. I'm starting to  pour
through all the info, but there is allot of it.

Any info/tips  would be  appreciated.

Pat
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pturner/



If you add ImagePrint to your 2200, you will have as much, if not more  
capability to produce professional color and B/W prints.
For B/W prints only, you can go with Piezo, MIS, or G-Quad inksets in your  
2200. I have 2 2200's set up with QTR ($50.00) for B/W.... 1 NK7 Split tone, 
the  other G-Quads (does both PK and MK).
 
Richard (Brooklyn)
<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free 
email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at 
http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: New printer time?

2007-02-26 by Clayton Jones

Hello Patrick,

>Are the new Epson printers using the K3 inks that much better then
>the SP2200 for instance? 

Yes and no.  As Richard has mentioned, there are many combinations of
inks, RIPs and workflows that can produce very fine results with the
2200 (and other printers).  So in that sense, no the K3 approach isn't
"better".  However, from another point of view the K3 printers are so
much more advanced that they have completely revolutionized the
marketplace.  This viewpoint is that of the beginner.  

For most of it's existance as a technology, BW digital printing has
been a potential nightmare for people just getting started.  The K3
printers have made it possible, for the first time, for beginners to
produce good prints out-of-the-box with a minimum of fuss and bother,
with full expectation of success, and without having to resort to the
"high-tech" approach that requires using RIPs, profiles,
densitometers, linearization curves and all of that.

Since the k3 printers arrived, the traffic in this forum has steadily
lessened to about 1/2 or less.  Look at the message history figures.
The K3 printers arrived in summer 2005 when monthly message traffic
was routinely at 1500 or more, and occasionally over 2000.  By
September the numbers began to fall off, and beginning in April 2006
it stayed below 1000. The average for the first 8 months of 2005 was
1750/mo.  For all of 2006 it was 882/mo.  The nature of the messages
has changed as well.  Before K3, a dominant theme was anguish and
frustration centered mostly around dealing with clogs and struggling
to get good results using various curves, RIPs and workflows.  Now
there is more discussion re the attributes of various papers and inks,
and there is a marked lack of anguish, frustration and struggle.

How have the K3 printers managed this?  It's not just the ink, but a
combination of the ink and the ABW driver, which is sort of a built in
simple RIP which combines the inks to create the BW tones.  We used to
have to use a 3rd party RIP, at some expense, along with all the rest
of the high tech approach in order to get good results, whether with
color or grayscale inks.  Now it can be done without all that (article
#9 at the web site below has a detailed outline of using the 2400 with
a simple workflow).

K3/ABW isn't perfect, though, and using a separate RIP with
densitometer and other approaches can still provide a greater degree
of control and some degree of improvement over the results.  But at
this point it's a matter of whether the photographer has the
inclination and motivation to put forth the extra time and effort to
get the relatively small degree of improvement.  But it's no longer a
requirement.  There are legions of darkroom practitioners making the
switch now, more than ever before, yet this forum, which has
historically been a place to get help with problems, has greatly
reduced traffic.  That's a huge difference.  It's a whole new world.


>I have an SP2200, but haven't used it much. I'm thinking of gearing 
>up for more serious involvement in my photography and had scound
thoughts about the printer I currently have. 
 
In the above sense, K3 is better, but it doesn't mean you have to
abandon your 2200.  It's more a matter of how you wish to go at it. 
If you want to stick with the 2200 you'll find lots of good help and
advice here.

There are, however, some reasons to seriously consider moving to a K3
printer, and that is the papers.  For people using glossy papers the
k3 ink is a huge improvement (greater dmax and less bronzing and gloss
differential).  But there are also some new papers that are neither
matte or glossy, but are sort of a combination of cotton base with a
semi glossy surface which strives to replicate the air dried fiber
based glossy (ADFBG) look and feel.  From all reports, the K3 inks
seem to do a better job than other inks with these papers.  This is an
emerging technology right now, and my impression is that people who
want to get on that bandwagon need to be using K3 (someone correct me
if this is wrong).


>I came from a very traditional B&W large format background, but have
>gone digital and trying my hand at color as well. I'm starting to 
>pour through all the info, but there is a lot of it.

Please have a look at the articles at the web site below.  There's a
lot of good material there, both general and specific.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: New printer time?

2007-02-26 by flyflightdeck

How does the K3 mk compare to eboni?Could someone coming from MIS
ultratone inks on an older Epson be happy with the K3 inks on a newer
x800 printer?

Chris


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Hello Patrick,
> 
> >Are the new Epson printers using the K3 inks that much better then
> >the SP2200 for instance? 
> 
> Yes and no.  As Richard has mentioned, there are many combinations of
> inks, RIPs and workflows that can produce very fine results with the
> 2200 (and other printers).  So in that sense, no the K3 approach isn't
> "better".  However, from another point of view the K3 printers are so
> much more advanced that they have completely revolutionized the
> marketplace.  This viewpoint is that of the beginner.  
> 
> For most of it's existance as a technology, BW digital printing has
> been a potential nightmare for people just getting started.  The K3
> printers have made it possible, for the first time, for beginners to
> produce good prints out-of-the-box with a minimum of fuss and bother,
> with full expectation of success, and without having to resort to the
> "high-tech" approach that requires using RIPs, profiles,
> densitometers, linearization curves and all of that.
> 
> Since the k3 printers arrived, the traffic in this forum has steadily
> lessened to about 1/2 or less.  Look at the message history figures.
> The K3 printers arrived in summer 2005 when monthly message traffic
> was routinely at 1500 or more, and occasionally over 2000.  By
> September the numbers began to fall off, and beginning in April 2006
> it stayed below 1000. The average for the first 8 months of 2005 was
> 1750/mo.  For all of 2006 it was 882/mo.  The nature of the messages
> has changed as well.  Before K3, a dominant theme was anguish and
> frustration centered mostly around dealing with clogs and struggling
> to get good results using various curves, RIPs and workflows.  Now
> there is more discussion re the attributes of various papers and inks,
> and there is a marked lack of anguish, frustration and struggle.
> 
> How have the K3 printers managed this?  It's not just the ink, but a
> combination of the ink and the ABW driver, which is sort of a built in
> simple RIP which combines the inks to create the BW tones.  We used to
> have to use a 3rd party RIP, at some expense, along with all the rest
> of the high tech approach in order to get good results, whether with
> color or grayscale inks.  Now it can be done without all that (article
> #9 at the web site below has a detailed outline of using the 2400 with
> a simple workflow).
> 
> K3/ABW isn't perfect, though, and using a separate RIP with
> densitometer and other approaches can still provide a greater degree
> of control and some degree of improvement over the results.  But at
> this point it's a matter of whether the photographer has the
> inclination and motivation to put forth the extra time and effort to
> get the relatively small degree of improvement.  But it's no longer a
> requirement.  There are legions of darkroom practitioners making the
> switch now, more than ever before, yet this forum, which has
> historically been a place to get help with problems, has greatly
> reduced traffic.  That's a huge difference.  It's a whole new world.
> 
> 
> >I have an SP2200, but haven't used it much. I'm thinking of gearing 
> >up for more serious involvement in my photography and had scound
> thoughts about the printer I currently have. 
>  
> In the above sense, K3 is better, but it doesn't mean you have to
> abandon your 2200.  It's more a matter of how you wish to go at it. 
> If you want to stick with the 2200 you'll find lots of good help and
> advice here.
> 
> There are, however, some reasons to seriously consider moving to a K3
> printer, and that is the papers.  For people using glossy papers the
> k3 ink is a huge improvement (greater dmax and less bronzing and gloss
> differential).  But there are also some new papers that are neither
> matte or glossy, but are sort of a combination of cotton base with a
> semi glossy surface which strives to replicate the air dried fiber
> based glossy (ADFBG) look and feel.  From all reports, the K3 inks
> seem to do a better job than other inks with these papers.  This is an
> emerging technology right now, and my impression is that people who
> want to get on that bandwagon need to be using K3 (someone correct me
> if this is wrong).
> 
> 
> >I came from a very traditional B&W large format background, but have
> >gone digital and trying my hand at color as well. I'm starting to 
> >pour through all the info, but there is a lot of it.
> 
> Please have a look at the articles at the web site below.  There's a
> lot of good material there, both general and specific.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

Re: New printer time?

2007-02-26 by Clayton Jones

Hello Chris,

>How does the K3 mk compare to eboni? 

There was a lot of discussion about this when K3 first appeared, with
this generally agreed upon conclusion (for matte paper of course): 
Eboni is still a tad cooler, and has slightly better dmax on HPR and
some other papers.  But K3 MK has slightly better dmax on VFA and
other Epson papers.  So it varies, but the general conclusion is that
K3 MK is very good and they are close.  

My sense from reports here are that people are either using the entire
MIS K4 set (includes Eboni), usually to reduce cost, or are using the
entire K3 set.  I never got the sense that using K3 inks with Eboni
was worthwhile.  Some are using a separate RIP to drive K3 inks
without the Yellow, or use ABW with a yellow substitute.  But it's
been a long time since I read anything about using Eboni with K3
colors...anybody doing this?


>Could someone coming from MIS ultratone inks on an older Epson be 
>happy with the K3 inks on a newer x800 printer?

Moving to a K3 printer is a completely different approach than MIS UT
(color inks vs grayscale inks).  It's much more than the difference
between Eboni and K3 MK.  There will definitely be a different look
and feel to the prints, and a difference in the way you work.  You
have to be prepared to discard all your notions of how things work and
how you tweak the system, basically starting over and learning a
different mind set.  The print quality is excellent.  Your ability to
"be happy with" it depends a lot on how well you can embrace something
new and different.

There are also different ways to use K3 printers, from the simplified
ABW workflow to color management with the Epson driver to using a RIP.
 So there are choices to be made there as well.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: New printer time?

2007-02-26 by flyflightdeck

Thanks Clayton.Good info as always.I actually got a new 4800 a few
weeks ago, but have not ran any ink through it yet.I'm still tweaking
my portfolio for 16x20's, and am trying to decide which ink to try
first.I have both the k3 mk and pk carts already, but have been toying
with the idea of starting with k7 or k4 and selling the unopened K3
carts.I have been printing in BO with Eboni on HPR on an old 1160 for
quite awhile with good results, and am a little nervous on how to
start with this new machine.

Chris

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Hello Chris,
> 
> >How does the K3 mk compare to eboni? 
> 
> There was a lot of discussion about this when K3 first appeared, with
> this generally agreed upon conclusion (for matte paper of course): 
> Eboni is still a tad cooler, and has slightly better dmax on HPR and
> some other papers.  But K3 MK has slightly better dmax on VFA and
> other Epson papers.  So it varies, but the general conclusion is that
> K3 MK is very good and they are close.  
> 
> My sense from reports here are that people are either using the entire
> MIS K4 set (includes Eboni), usually to reduce cost, or are using the
> entire K3 set.  I never got the sense that using K3 inks with Eboni
> was worthwhile.  Some are using a separate RIP to drive K3 inks
> without the Yellow, or use ABW with a yellow substitute.  But it's
> been a long time since I read anything about using Eboni with K3
> colors...anybody doing this?
> 
> 
> >Could someone coming from MIS ultratone inks on an older Epson be 
> >happy with the K3 inks on a newer x800 printer?
> 
> Moving to a K3 printer is a completely different approach than MIS UT
> (color inks vs grayscale inks).  It's much more than the difference
> between Eboni and K3 MK.  There will definitely be a different look
> and feel to the prints, and a difference in the way you work.  You
> have to be prepared to discard all your notions of how things work and
> how you tweak the system, basically starting over and learning a
> different mind set.  The print quality is excellent.  Your ability to
> "be happy with" it depends a lot on how well you can embrace something
> new and different.
> 
> There are also different ways to use K3 printers, from the simplified
> ABW workflow to color management with the Epson driver to using a RIP.
>  So there are choices to be made there as well.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

Re: New printer time?

2007-02-26 by Clayton Jones

Chris,

>Thanks Clayton.Good info as always.I actually got a new 4800 a few
>weeks ago, but have not ran any ink through it yet.I'm still tweaking
>my portfolio for 16x20's, and am trying to decide which ink to try
>first.I have both the k3 mk and pk carts already, but have been 
>toying with the idea of starting with k7 or k4 and selling the
>unopened K3 carts.I have been printing in BO with Eboni on HPR on 
>an old 1160 for quite awhile with good results, and am a little 
>nervous on how to start with this new machine.

I understand [g].  I got my 2400 after my 2200 began a death song.  I
remember feeling quite uneasy about it, and in the very beginning felt
I had made a big mistake.  But I plowed ahead and finally began to
understand it.  It took awhile to figure it out but eventually I came
to appreciate it and now I wouldn't go back.  It's an incredibly good
system.  Let us know what you decide to do.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

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