Digital BW, The Print

I just received a two sample prints from Allen Takichi Maertz of 
Lincoln Ink & Papers, www.lincolninks.com, printed with their 
Spectratone monochrome inks.  One print is on Oce watercolor paper, 
and was not impressive.  The other is on Ilford 9 mil Glossy paper 
and is most impressive.  The blacks are incredible.  I measured the 
reflectance of the zero patch to be 2.4!  This I compared to a zero 
patch reading of Cone's inks on German Etching Board (Orwell) which 
is 1.63.

The sample was printed on an Epson 3000 as a CMYK file using the 
Adobe Pressready RIP.  I can see the dither pattern, but overall it's 
not too bad.  

The print on the Ilford glossy looks very much like a photo RC glossy 
print, which is not the look I prefer for my fine art prints, but 
that black is hard to dismiss.

I'm going to order a sample of the paper to try with Cone's inkset.  
They'll probably smear, but it's worth a try.  I'll also order a set 
of Spectratone carts for my 3000 and print through Cone's RIP and my 
Wasatch RIP.

I'll post my findings.

Ron

Don't forget that the glossy will always give better blacks. Have you tried
Ultima Satin with the Cone inks? Again, just like an RC glossy print.

Julian
----- Original Message -----

From: <ron@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 11:24 PM
Subject: [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] Spectratone Quadtone inks


> I just received a two sample prints from Allen Takichi Maertz of
> Lincoln Ink & Papers, www.lincolninks.com, printed with their
> Spectratone monochrome inks.  One print is on Oce watercolor paper,
> and was not impressive.  The other is on Ilford 9 mil Glossy paper
> and is most impressive.  The blacks are incredible.  I measured the
> reflectance of the zero patch to be 2.4!  This I compared to a zero
> patch reading of Cone's inks on German Etching Board (Orwell) which
> is 1.63.
>
> The sample was printed on an Epson 3000 as a CMYK file using the
> Adobe Pressready RIP.  I can see the dither pattern, but overall it's
> not too bad.
>
> The print on the Ilford glossy looks very much like a photo RC glossy
> print, which is not the look I prefer for my fine art prints, but
> that black is hard to dismiss.
>
> I'm going to order a sample of the paper to try with Cone's inkset.
> They'll probably smear, but it's worth a try.  I'll also order a set
> of Spectratone carts for my 3000 and print through Cone's RIP and my
> Wasatch RIP.
>
> I'll post my findings.
>
> Ron
>
>
>
> If you do not wish to belong to Digital B&W, The Print, you may
> unsubscribe by sending an email to:
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Julian,

Yes I did try the Ultima Satin with Cone's inks but don't recall the blacks
being as rich as the Ilford sample.  I also didn't like the bronzing and
didn't want to mess with spraying the inks to fix them.  I'll print out a
gray scale on the Ultima Satin and measure the density of the black just for
comparison.

Ron
   >  Don't forget that the glossy will always give better blacks. Have you
tried
   >  Ultima Satin with the Cone inks? Again, just like an RC glossy print.

  >  Julian



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ron,

I haven't tried this paper but it might be of interest to you for a 
dye-based ink set. Brightcube has a paper called Gelatin Art 
described as:

"Gelatin Art is 100% cotton fiber, is acid-free, and inkjet coated 
with photographic gelatin. Gelatin Art is a warm white, textured 
watercolor paper that provides "predictable longevity" with virtually 
all dye based inks.
Weight: 300gsm"

I saw it at http://www.photoinkjet.com Maybe you can get a sample 
from them. The implication is that it is similar to traditional 
silver fiber print. If you try it, let us know what its like.

"...inkjet coated with photographic gelatin." Hmmm...probably a 
typo...

Martin Wesley





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., ron@p... wrote:
> I just received a two sample prints from Allen Takichi Maertz of 
> Lincoln Ink & Papers, www.lincolninks.com, printed with their 
> Spectratone monochrome inks.  One print is on Oce watercolor paper, 
> and was not impressive.  The other is on Ilford 9 mil Glossy paper 
> and is most impressive.  The blacks are incredible.  I measured the 
> reflectance of the zero patch to be 2.4!  This I compared to a zero 
> patch reading of Cone's inks on German Etching Board (Orwell) which 
> is 1.63.
> 
> The sample was printed on an Epson 3000 as a CMYK file using the 
> Adobe Pressready RIP.  I can see the dither pattern, but overall 
it's 
> not too bad.  
> 
> The print on the Ilford glossy looks very much like a photo RC 
glossy 
> print, which is not the look I prefer for my fine art prints, but 
> that black is hard to dismiss.
> 
> I'm going to order a sample of the paper to try with Cone's 
inkset.  
> They'll probably smear, but it's worth a try.  I'll also order a 
set 
> of Spectratone carts for my 3000 and print through Cone's RIP and 
my 

> Wasatch RIP.
> 
> I'll post my findings.
> 
> Ron

Julian,

I printed a 21-step grayscale with Cone's inks on the Kodak Ultima Satin and
measured the reflection density of the zero patch to be 1.88.  The Ilford
Glossy print with the Spectratone inks reads 2.4.  I'll try Cone's inks with
the Ilford Glossy when I receive it.

Ron



  Julian,

  Yes I did try the Ultima Satin with Cone's inks but don't recall the
blacks
  being as rich as the Ilford sample.  I also didn't like the bronzing and
  didn't want to mess with spraying the inks to fix them.  I'll print out a
  gray scale on the Ultima Satin and measure the density of the black just
for
  comparison.

  Ron
     >  Don't forget that the glossy will always give better blacks. Have
you
  tried
     >  Ultima Satin with the Cone inks? Again, just like an RC glossy
print.

    >  Julian





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I met with Charles Berger of Ultrastable Color Systems (developer of the
best printer paper for the Wide Spectrum inks) a week or two back - the dye
inks of Lincoln offer a perfect opportunity to print on glossy surfaces, and
judging by the _colour_ print I saw - Fantastic!

I'm hoping to be testing the colour inks & papers on small format printers
in the near future.

Nij

-----Original Message-----
From: ron@... [mailto:ron@...]
Sent: 30 July 2001 22:25
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] Spectratone Quadtone inks


I just received a two sample prints from Allen Takichi Maertz of
Lincoln Ink & Papers, www.lincolninks.com, printed with their
Spectratone monochrome inks.  One print is on Oce watercolor paper,
and was not impressive.  The other is on Ilford 9 mil Glossy paper
and is most impressive.  The blacks are incredible.  I measured the
reflectance of the zero patch to be 2.4!  This I compared to a zero
patch reading of Cone's inks on German Etching Board (Orwell) which
is 1.63.

The sample was printed on an Epson 3000 as a CMYK file using the
Adobe Pressready RIP.  I can see the dither pattern, but overall it's
not too bad.

The print on the Ilford glossy looks very much like a photo RC glossy
print, which is not the look I prefer for my fine art prints, but
that black is hard to dismiss.

I'm going to order a sample of the paper to try with Cone's inkset.
They'll probably smear, but it's worth a try.  I'll also order a set
of Spectratone carts for my 3000 and print through Cone's RIP and my
Wasatch RIP.

I'll post my findings.

Ron



If you do not wish to belong to Digital B&W, The Print, you may
unsubscribe by sending an email to:
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., ron@p... wrote:
> I just received a two sample prints from Allen Takichi Maertz of 
> Lincoln Ink & Papers, www.lincolninks.com, printed with their 
> Spectratone monochrome inks.  One print is on Oce watercolor paper, 
> and was not impressive.

Gee, I sorta liked it. By the way, "Gelatin Art Paper" is this stuff.
Tyler

Tyler,

I should have been more clear.  The Oce watercolor paper looks like a fine
paper.  I was claiming that the Spectratone inks on it were not all that
impressive.  BTW, how does the paper work with Cone's inks?  What profile do
you use?  And where do you buy it?

Thanks,

Ron

  > I just received a two sample prints from Allen Takichi Maertz of
  > Lincoln Ink & Papers, www.lincolninks.com, printed with their
  > Spectratone monochrome inks.  One print is on Oce watercolor paper,
  > and was not impressive.

  Gee, I sorta liked it. By the way, "Gelatin Art Paper" is this stuff.
  Tyler





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That's ok, I have some off center tastes. I thought those inks on
that paper had a very interesting cool to neutral platinum 
print look (on a warm base) that is very hard to get these days.
Folks after big Dmax
wouldn't like it. Oce watercolor paper seems to be the 
same as Xtreme Gamut Gelatin Art, Media Street Artist Water Color
Paper 140 lb., and Red River Caspian Art Card.
Pigment inks generally do not work well on gelatin coated papers,
true to form, the Cone inks had problems on it. I got 
reasonable results by working with a RIP and some difficult
separation curves, but didn't pursue it as I liked the results 
with the Cone inks on clay coated papers better.
Another problem is that the pigments take too long to take to the
paper, so the pizza wheels leave tracks of wet ink.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Ron Landucci" <ron@p...>
wrote:
> Tyler,
> 
> I should have been more clear.  The Oce watercolor paper looks like
a fine
> paper.  I was claiming that the Spectratone inks on it were not all
that
> impressive.  BTW, how does the paper work with Cone's inks?  What
profile do
> you use?  And where do you buy it?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ron
> 
>   > I just received a two sample prints from Allen Takichi Maertz of
>   > Lincoln Ink & Papers, www.lincolninks.com, printed with their
>   > Spectratone monochrome inks.  One print is on Oce watercolor
paper,
>   > and was not impressive.
> 
>   Gee, I sorta liked it. By the way, "Gelatin Art Paper" is this
stuff.

>   Tyler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ron,

in my tests, the Kodak Ultima Satin produced a dMax of 2.10 when freshly 
printed, but only a 1.73 the next day. I suspect your 1.88 is a little optimistic.
Which is to say that, at least with Piezo inks it's worth taking another reading 
the next day (at least). Some papers change, some don't.

Do you know anything about the longevity of the Spectratones? (are they 
pigment or dye or.. both?)

Antonis




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Ron Landucci" <ron@p...> wrote:
> Julian,
> 
> I printed a 21-step grayscale with Cone's inks on the Kodak Ultima Satin 
and

> measured the reflection density of the zero patch to be 1.88.  The Ilford
> Glossy print with the Spectratone inks reads 2.4.  I'll try Cone's inks with
> the Ilford Glossy when I receive it.
> 
> Ron

Ron,
You are right, you really need to spray the Ultima. The blacks go very deep
and there is no bronzing. But it is a pain!

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Landucci" <ron@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 11:50 PM
Subject: RE: [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] Spectratone Quadtone inks


> Julian,
>
> Yes I did try the Ultima Satin with Cone's inks but don't recall the
blacks
> being as rich as the Ilford sample.  I also didn't like the bronzing and
> didn't want to mess with spraying the inks to fix them.  I'll print out a
> gray scale on the Ultima Satin and measure the density of the black just
for
> comparison.
>
> Ron
>    >  Don't forget that the glossy will always give better blacks. Have
you
> tried
>    >  Ultima Satin with the Cone inks? Again, just like an RC glossy
print.

>
>   >  Julian
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> If you do not wish to belong to Digital B&W, The Print, you may
> unsubscribe by sending an email to:
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Wow! I'll try the Ilford.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Landucci" <ron@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 12:47 AM
Subject: RE: [DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint] Spectratone Quadtone inks


> Julian,
>
> I printed a 21-step grayscale with Cone's inks on the Kodak Ultima Satin
and
> measured the reflection density of the zero patch to be 1.88.  The Ilford
> Glossy print with the Spectratone inks reads 2.4.  I'll try Cone's inks
with
> the Ilford Glossy when I receive it.
>
> Ron
>
>
>
>   Julian,
>
>   Yes I did try the Ultima Satin with Cone's inks but don't recall the
> blacks
>   being as rich as the Ilford sample.  I also didn't like the bronzing and
>   didn't want to mess with spraying the inks to fix them.  I'll print out
a

>   gray scale on the Ultima Satin and measure the density of the black just
> for
>   comparison.
>
>   Ron
>      >  Don't forget that the glossy will always give better blacks. Have
> you
>   tried
>      >  Ultima Satin with the Cone inks? Again, just like an RC glossy
> print.
>
>     >  Julian
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> If you do not wish to belong to Digital B&W, The Print, you may
> unsubscribe by sending an email to:
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Antonis,

Following is a portion of an email I received from Allen T. Maertz of
Lincoln Ink when I asked him the vary same question.

>
...Spectratones on Ilford media are difficult to get to fade at all. It's
even beating the Generations Pigmented on Hahnemuhle Etch 310....
>

That sounds promising.  I'll give `em the old south window test when I get
up and running with them.

I don't know if they're dyes or pigs, and I can't find that info on the
website.  I'm guessing they're dyes.  I'll ask Allen.

Ron

  Do you know anything about the longevity of the Spectratones? (are they
  pigment or dye or.. both?)

  Antonis





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Antonis,

I just learned that the Spectratone inks are 100% dye.

Ron
    (are they  pigment or dye or.. both?)

    Antonis




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

They are derived from the Ilford Archiva azo dyes, apparently very
different animals than most dye inks, and best suited to gelatin 
coated papers. More info is here-
http://www.lincolninks.com/
I don't work for them, though I beta tested an early version. I think
Campfire Dan has considerably more experience with 
them.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Ron Landucci" <ron@p...>
wrote:

> Antonis,
> 
> I just learned that the Spectratone inks are 100% dye.
> 
> Ron
>     (are they  pigment or dye or.. both?)
> 
>     Antonis
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Tyler,

What is your take on the image quality and archival rating of this 
ink set? The Dmax reports sound wonderful.

And welcome!!

Martin
 
I owe you an e-mail.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> 
wrote:
> They are derived from the Ilford Archiva azo dyes, apparently very
> different animals than most dye inks, and best suited to gelatin 
> coated papers. More info is here-
> http://www.lincolninks.com/
> I don't work for them, though I beta tested an early version. I 
think

> Campfire Dan has considerably more experience with 
> them.
> Tyler
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Ron Landucci" <ron@p...>
> wrote:
> > Antonis,
> > 
> > I just learned that the Spectratone inks are 100% dye.
> > 
> > Ron
> >     (are they  pigment or dye or.. both?)
> > 
> >     Antonis
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Tyler and Ron for pointing me to the Lincoln inks. 

From what I see the best way to do quad with Spectratone is to use a RIP. 
Also, it seems obvious that one is best advised to use a CIS.
Any relevant comparisons to MIS et al?


Antonis


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> wrote:

> They are derived from the Ilford Archiva azo dyes, apparently very
> different animals than most dye inks, and best suited to gelatin 
> coated papers. More info is here-
> http://www.lincolninks.com/
> I don't work for them, though I beta tested an early version. I think
> Campfire Dan has considerably more experience with 
> them.
> Tyler
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Ron Landucci" <ron@p...>
> wrote:
> > Antonis,
> > 
> > I just learned that the Spectratone inks are 100% dye.
> > 
> > Ron
> >     (are they  pigment or dye or.. both?)
> > 
> >     Antonis
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Martin Wesley invited me to join the group 
so I can answer any questions on the 
Spectratones directly.  It's great to see this 
kind of group finally happening.

I read up on past posts and can confirm some 
information here.  Yes, it's the Azo dye 
based ink.  It's very difficult to get the 
Spectratones to fade and I'll be happy to mail 
out a small swatch for anyone to test for 
some head to head fading, just e-mail me off 
list at allentakichi@... and I'll be 
most interested in the diverse (and possibly 
more real world) testing conditions that pop 
up. 

The Spectratones inkset really is married to 
the ilford media for longevity as well as the 
geletin Oce Watercolor.  I've got some of 
Charles Bergers Ultrastable media in 
informal window tests also as well as a 
heavy Dupont superglossy media which will 
be released later.

My favorite printer is the 3000 with the 
PressReady RIP for both size, quality and 
reliablitly.  

I just did a back check on one of my 3000s 
with the Piezography driver last night and I 
get banding and puddeling on ilford media so 
I unfortunately don't think that it's the road 
to go down.

The d-max varies on the media that you put it 
down on with the highest of course being 
glossy.  There is an Ilford 4 mil white film 
(which is meant to be mounted) which in my 
mind is the black and white equivalent to the 
Classic Cibachrome with possibly the 
maximum d-max.   Yes, this really does look 
like cibachrome as you dive into the image 
past the surface.

In general for third party inkset and the 
Spectratones, "bronzing" or a value reversals 
in the dark end of the scale can often be 
remedied by raising the value of the black 
point.  I use a 21 step wedge and then further 
divide the darkest darks into steps of 4 and 
steps of 6 to find the "real" D-max.  Often, 
the maximum black is not rgb=000 but 
higher depending on the driver and driver 
settings.

It's great to have this forum happen and I'll 
try and contribute as time allows.

Since there is a giant swath of new epson 
printers coming out continuously, I'd be 
open to some serious beta testers for current 
production printers with the Spectratones.  
Contact me off list please.

Also, I'm brewing up an all pigmented inkset 
but I'll announce for beta testors after I've 
run some more preliminary test of my own. 

Sincerely,



Allen Maertz



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., 
antonisphoto@y... wrote:
> Thanks Tyler and Ron for pointing me to the Lincoln inks. 
> 
> From what I see the best way to do quad with Spectratone is to use a RIP. 
> Also, it seems obvious that one is best advised to use a CIS.
> Any relevant comparisons to MIS et al?
> 
> 
> Antonis
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> wrote:
> > They are derived from the Ilford Archiva azo dyes, apparently very
> > different animals than most dye inks, and best suited to gelatin 
> > coated papers. More info is here-
> > http://www.lincolninks.com/
> > I don't work for them, though I beta tested an early version. I think
> > Campfire Dan has considerably more experience with 
> > them.
> > Tyler
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Ron Landucci" <ron@p...>
> > wrote:
> > > Antonis,
> > > 
> > > I just learned that the Spectratone inks are 100% dye.
> > > 
> > > Ron
> > >     (are they  pigment or dye or.. both?)
> > > 
> > >     Antonis
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > [Non-text portions of this message 
have been removed]

Allen,

Glad you could make it and I hope that your very informative post 
will encourage some of the other vendors to contribute.

Now that I've got you here....

Would it be feasible to load the bulk inks into virgin cartridges for 
a 1270 or 1280 and print using the 1200 workflows or are the curves 
likely to be too far off for reasonable results?

Would Brightcube's Xtreme Gamut Gelatin Art paper, that uses the same 
gelatin as silver paper for a coating, be a likely candidate for your 
ink set?

Is the finished look of the prints on the Ilford paper more like an 
RC finish and, if so, is there a paper that will give a finish closer 
to an air dried silver fiber print?

Thanks,

Martin Wesley


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., allentakichi@e... wrote:
> Martin Wesley invited me to join the group 
> so I can answer any questions on the 
> Spectratones directly.  It's great to see this 
> kind of group finally happening.
> 
> I read up on past posts and can confirm some 
> information here.  Yes, it's the Azo dye 
> based ink.  It's very difficult to get the 
> Spectratones to fade and I'll be happy to mail 
> out a small swatch for anyone to test for 
> some head to head fading, just e-mail me off 
> list at allentakichi@e... and I'll be 

(snip previous)

Dear Martin,

Yes, loading the bulk inks into virgin carts 
for the 1270/1280 printers should work fine 
using the same curves and rgb workflow. 

In fact the workflow should be exactly the 
same with the same curves in all of the photo 
6 color epson printers.  One my take the 
curve and perhaps change the black point and 
overall raise or lower the curve a bit if 
needed.

I just haven't actually run the inks through 
those printers so I'll pass some ink out to 
new beta testors (interested?).  My place is 
piled up with 7 printers and the 9000 and I 
want to work on the pigmented quads here 
next.

On  Brightcube's Xtreme Gamut Gelatin Art 
paper, clue me in on where to get this or 
send me some and I'll run a check on it.  If 
it's real Gelatin, longevity could really be 
maximum, same as on some uncoated 
Gelatin sized watercolor papers.  

On the finish of the Ilford papers, I'd say 
that that the glossy would be between RC 
and Silver Fiber Glossy Paper. Send me 
your address and I'll send you some sample 
prints.

On the black point and overall print contrast 
on the ilford glossy media, I actually print 
better then my new 21" callibrated trinitron 
screen.  That always amazes me.

Allen

http://www.lincolninks.com


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., 
mwesley250@e... wrote:

> Allen,
> 
> Glad you could make it and I hope that your very informative post 
> will encourage some of the other vendors to contribute.
> 
> Now that I've got you here....
> 
> Would it be feasible to load the bulk inks into virgin cartridges for 
> a 1270 or 1280 and print using the 1200 workflows or are the curves 
> likely to be too far off for reasonable results?
> 
> Would Brightcube's Xtreme Gamut Gelatin Art paper, that uses the same 
> gelatin as silver paper for a coating, be a likely candidate for your 
> ink set?
> 
> Is the finished look of the prints on the Ilford paper more like an 
> RC finish and, if so, is there a paper that will give a finish closer 
> to an air dried silver fiber print?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Martin Wesley
>

Allen,

And I thought I was getting crowded out of my work space! (Of course 
if you need some place to store some of those printers.....)

I'm glad the workflow is the same. I was looking to see what the 
lowest cost path might be for people to give your inks a try.

I ran across the Brightcube paper on their retail site:

http://www.photoinkjet.com/

Well you are succeeding in getting me more interested.

Thanks,
Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., allentakichi@e... wrote:
> Dear Martin,
> 
> Yes, loading the bulk inks into virgin carts 
> for the 1270/1280 printers should work fine 
> using the same curves and rgb workflow. 
> 
> In fact the workflow should be exactly the 
> same with the same curves in all of the photo 
> 6 color epson printers.  One my take the 
> curve and perhaps change the black point and 
> overall raise or lower the curve a bit if 
> needed.
> 
> I just haven't actually run the inks through 
> those printers so I'll pass some ink out to 
> new beta testors (interested?).  My place is 
> piled up with 7 printers and the 9000 and I 
> want to work on the pigmented quads here 
> next.
> 
> On  Brightcube's Xtreme Gamut Gelatin Art 
> paper, clue me in on where to get this or 
> send me some and I'll run a check on it.  If 
> it's real Gelatin, longevity could really be 
> maximum, same as on some uncoated 
> Gelatin sized watercolor papers.  
> 
> On the finish of the Ilford papers, I'd say 
> that that the glossy would be between RC 
> and Silver Fiber Glossy Paper. Send me 
> your address and I'll send you some sample 
> prints.
> 
> On the black point and overall print contrast 
> on the ilford glossy media, I actually print 
> better then my new 21" callibrated trinitron 
> screen.  That always amazes me.
> 
> Allen
> 
> http://www.lincolninks.com
> 
> 
(snip earlier)

> They are derived from the Ilford Archiva azo dyes, apparently very
> different animals than most dye inks, and best suited to gelatin
> coated papers. More info is here-
> http://www.lincolninks.com/
> I don't work for them, though I beta tested an early version. I think
> Campfire Dan has considerably more experience with
> them.
> Tyler

Yep -they are dye.  Only quad inks I've tried that really gets you close to
a silver-glossy look.  If there is any flaw it is the plethora of options in
ink selection - good for folks like me, problematic perhaps for those who
are overwhelmed with options.  I have used the tri-tone RGB method on the
1200 and my own special spectrophotometer-based RGB softproof method on the
3000 (posted at the Lincoln Inks and Papers website).  Very high Dmax (2.2
plus) with both printers and very subtle control of the range with the
softproof method and CMYK methods.  All in all if these inks hold up in the
longevity tests (and I really think they  will) and if a good gelatin or
polymer coated smooth matte paper is found to round out the paper options I
doubt I will ever go back to any of the pigment inksets.  Presuming of
course that I ever get over my habit of perpetual experimentation for the
sake of experimentation.

Campfiredan 
(aka Dan Culbertson)

> From what I see the best way to do quad with Spectratone is to use a RIP.
> Also, it seems obvious that one is best advised to use a CIS.
> Any relevant comparisons to MIS et al?
> 
> 
> Antonis

Not necessarily.  A RIP gives additional control but with this system the
Dmax is so high and the range thus so expanded that this control is not
quite so important (ie you don't really need "rich black" CMYK ink
specifications to get a deep black).  The six color 1200 did very very well
just sending a grayscale to it with moderate dot area curve adjustment (or
gamma curve).  The 3000 and other four color printers need more control of
the individual channels but I think that RGB partitioning methods will be
quite acceptable.

Dan Culbertson

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., allentakichi@e... wrote:
snip
> On  Brightcube's Xtreme Gamut Gelatin Art 
> paper, clue me in on where to get this or 
> send me some and I'll run a check on it.  If 
> it's real Gelatin, longevity could really be 
> maximum, same as on some uncoated 
> Gelatin sized watercolor papers.

Allen, I'm still swamped and haven't sent the papers I promised. I think it's safe to assume Brightcube's Xtreme Gamut 
Gelatin Art is tha same as Xtreme Gamut's paper of the same name from other dealers. This, as well as Media Street Artist 
Water Color Paper 140 lb. and Red River Caspian Art Card., appear to be the Oce.
Regarding Arches, my last tests were looking good with Piezo inks and PressReady, then I discovered a regular pattern of 
unevenness in what should have been smooth tones. It didn't reveal itself at first because my test images were very 
textural. I'm wondering if sizing watercolor papers is a much less precise process than coating inkjet papers, they don't 
need to be. Have you noticed any such problems with Arches?
One paper I think your ink would kick butt on is Lumijet Premium DW Glossy. I think it would be the closest match to an air 
dried fiber selenium toned silver print available for inkjet. It was discontinued, but I heard it would be brought back to 
market. The longevity with Lysonics was pretty astounding compared to clay coated papers, I'm quite sure it was gelatin 
coated.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Dan Culbertson <danculb@b...> wrote:
...snip of everything useful...

>...Presuming of
> course that I ever get over my habit of perpetual experimentation for the
> sake of experimentation.
> 
> Campfiredan 
> (aka Dan Culbertson)

Actually, unless he's taken to burning test prints in his computer room, I'll bet he hasn't been around a camp fire since the 
dawn of color management...
Tyler

Seems like the epson-inkjet list has been dead since early yesterday,
and leben.com does not respond to pings. I wonder if Mitch's server got
zapped by the Code Red virus. Does anybody know?

Richard Wolfson
rwolfson at LyricDesign.com

>> ...Presuming of
>> course that I ever get over my habit of perpetual experimentation for the
>> sake of experimentation.
>> 
>> Campfiredan 
>> (aka Dan Culbertson)
> 
> Actually, unless he's taken to burning test prints in his computer room, I'll
> bet he hasn't been around a camp fire since the
> dawn of color management...
> Tyler

Acck!  More true than I like to admit.  However, I am rolling up all those
test prints into paper logs and storing them so if I ever do get back out
into the hills I will  never need to look for firewood again!

Dan

It is still working for me.

On Thu, 2 Aug 2001 10:06:47 -0400, you wrote:

>Seems like the epson-inkjet list has been dead since early yesterday,
>and leben.com does not respond to pings. I wonder if Mitch's server got
>zapped by the Code Red virus. Does anybody know?
>
>Richard Wolfson
>rwolfson at LyricDesign.com
>
>
>
>
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-----------------------------------------------------------
Victor Engel      lights@...      http://the-light.com