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Dedicated Black and White System Overview

Dedicated Black and White System Overview

2007-03-05 by Steve

I'm reading all I can on converting a printer to dedicated black and 
white.  Unfortunately, I'm not able to reach any conclusions on the 
suitability of one system over the other.

Can anyone give me a rundown of the competing systems and their 
advantages/disadvantages?

At the moment, I'm leaning toward the piezotone system because it 
seems straightforward and because the idea of doing split tones prints 
apeals to me.

I'm wishing I could get a hands-on look at output from the various 
systems, but I can't figure how to make that happen.

Dedicated Black and White System Overview

2007-03-05 by rternbach

dazegoneby,

Don't remain in a daze! Goto a studio where they are actually using 
the system you are considering. Have them do a print or two for you. 
Ask them about their printers, inks, profiles, etc. Better still, 
take a class in piezography. Don't buy a pig in a poke.

rt

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" 
<dazedgonebye@...> wrote:
>
> I'm reading all I can on converting a printer to dedicated black 
and 
> white.  Unfortunately, I'm not able to reach any conclusions on 
the 
> suitability of one system over the other.
> 
> Can anyone give me a rundown of the competing systems and their 
> advantages/disadvantages?
> 
> At the moment, I'm leaning toward the piezotone system because it 
> seems straightforward and because the idea of doing split tones 
prints 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> apeals to me.
> 
> I'm wishing I could get a hands-on look at output from the various 
> systems, but I can't figure how to make that happen.
>

Re: Dedicated Black and White System Overview

2007-03-05 by Tyler Boley

yes, this does have the potential to go sideways here. Yet, it's
precisely the question this list should be able to help with.
I agree, get samples, and ask on the Piezography list and particularly
the QTR list as well. Widen your scope, it may take some time, and
even trying some things you wind up abandoning.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "rternbach"
<RT@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> dazegoneby,
> 
> Don't remain in a daze! Goto a studio where they are actually using 
> the system you are considering. Have them do a print or two for you. 
> Ask them about their printers, inks, profiles, etc. Better still, 
> take a class in piezography. Don't buy a pig in a poke.
> 
> rt
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" 
> <dazedgonebye@> wrote:
> >
> > I'm reading all I can on converting a printer to dedicated black 
> and 
> > white.  Unfortunately, I'm not able to reach any conclusions on 
> the 
> > suitability of one system over the other.
> > 
> > Can anyone give me a rundown of the competing systems and their 
> > advantages/disadvantages?
> > 
> > At the moment, I'm leaning toward the piezotone system because it 
> > seems straightforward and because the idea of doing split tones 
> prints 
> > apeals to me.
> > 
> > I'm wishing I could get a hands-on look at output from the various 
> > systems, but I can't figure how to make that happen.
> >
>

Re: Dedicated Black and White System Overview

2007-03-05 by Steve

Argh!  More lists!  More reading!
Can't someone just be smart for me?  ;-)

I do need to find someone locally that can show me results.  I'll look.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
<tyler@...> wrote:
>
> yes, this does have the potential to go sideways here. Yet, it's
> precisely the question this list should be able to help with.
> I agree, get samples, and ask on the Piezography list and 
particularly
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> the QTR list as well. Widen your scope, it may take some time, and
> even trying some things you wind up abandoning.
> Tyler
>

Re: Dedicated Black and White System Overview

2007-03-05 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve"
<smaniscalco@...> wrote:
>
> Argh!  More lists!  More reading!
> Can't someone just be smart for me?  ;-)

of course, but they will also be narrowly focused and opinionated,
like me (except for that smart part). No one here has a totally
informed big picture no matter what they tell you.
No need for local, many shops and users are happy to send samples or
share results.
Good luck, try to keep it enjoyable.
Tyler

RE: [Digital BW] Dedicated Black and White System Overview

2007-03-05 by Paul Roark

Hi Steve,

>I'm reading all I can on converting a printer to dedicated black and 
>white. 

Which printer?  

How large you want to print and how much you want to spend are major
variables.

Whether you want to get involved in profiling the inkset yourself is also a
major one.  The different systems have different numbers of profiles
pre-made.  For self-profiling with no equipment or experience, the k3
(Epson) ABW mode is the best I've seen.  

>Can anyone give me a rundown of the competing systems and their 
>advantages/disadvantages?

The people on this forum mostly use Epson printers.  The most widely used
inksets on the group are probably Epson, MIS, and Cone/Piezo.

For a list of MIS inksets by printer model, see
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/ 

If I had to live with one printer today, I'd probably buy a 3800 and hope
that I'd be able to refill the carts with MIS inks.  The 3800 has the major
advantage of being able to print matte and glossy papers relatively easy for
a printer that can handle 16 x 20 prints.  Many of the MIS systems I've
worked on do it even easier (purely software/profile controlled).  The 2400
requires you to change the black cart, which is also not that bad.

>At the moment, I'm leaning toward the piezotone system because it 
>seems straightforward and because the idea of doing split tones prints 
>apeals to me.

Any variable tone system can do split tones.  The question is whether there
are ready-made profiles or how easy it is to profile the systems.  The k3
printers would require QTR of other rip to do a split tone.

Split tones that have different tones in different areas (like this
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Split_tone.pdf ) cannot be done with QTR.
The Epson driver and IJC can do this.  

If you're interested in the new glossy offerings, Piezotones may not be the
best choice.

>I'm wishing I could get a hands-on look at output from the various 
>systems, but I can't figure how to make that happen.

At this point the differences among the newer systems are going to have more
to do with paper and the quality of the profiling than the inks.  New Epson
k3, Piezo and MIS inksets are all capable of top notch prints.  At the entry
level, the C88 MIS EZ and R220/340 MIS R2 approaches are the bargains, but
they are limited to 8x10 printing.

Good luck.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: Dedicated Black and White System Overview

2007-03-05 by rgoldman2

Let us know where you live, and probably some people on this list who
are nearby will volunteer to show you what they are doing and how they
are doing it. The Epson 2400 (and larger printers in the same series)
was a real breakthrough for many of us because it has a feature called
Advanced Black and White (ABW) that for the first time made excellent
monochrome prints without the use of a third party RIP or third party
inks. And you have the choice of matte black or glossy black ink.
There is an exception to my last statement, and that is the "black
only" system that many people liked on the earlier vintage Epson
printers. Go to Clayton Jones' website (he is very helpful and posts
frequently here). For a very modest cost, he will send you examples of
prints made with both matte and glossy black and on different papers,
using the Epson system. Read his essays.

There are two all grey ink systems that are quite popular. And they
also work on these Epson printers (and earlier models). The MIS inks
are favored by many. Go to Paul Roark's website (also contributes
here)to see examples and get advice. The other system is made by Jon
Cone at InkjetMall.com. They also will send you examples.

If you want advice about how and where to start you decision making,
my suggestion is to start with this.

good luck

Re: Dedicated Black and White System Overview

2007-03-05 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
...
> 
> If you're interested in the new glossy offerings, Piezotones may not
be the
> best choice.


http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/piezography3000/message/27638

I'll repeat my recommendation that Steve include many info sources
outside this list. I'd particularly recommend placing the same initial
post here-

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/QuadtoneRIP/

Tyler

Re: Dedicated Black and White System Overview

2007-03-06 by Steve

I'm reading/posting on the piezography board.  I'll check out the 
quadtone now.

If it helps any, i've about decided on a refurbished R1800

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
<tyler@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@> wrote:
> >
> ...
> > 
> > If you're interested in the new glossy offerings, Piezotones may 
not
> be the
> > best choice.
> 
> 
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/piezography3000/message/27638
> 
> I'll repeat my recommendation that Steve include many info sources
> outside this list. I'd particularly recommend placing the same 
initial
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> post here-
> 
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/QuadtoneRIP/
> 
> Tyler
>

Re: Dedicated Black and White System Overview

2007-03-06 by David Keenan

>Can't someone just be smart for me? ;-)

Yes.

Get an Epson R2400 or 3800 and print using the printer's ABW mode.

The results are great.

Some purists will gripe about the permanence and the fact that there is a
little bit of color ink used to balance the tonality but you simply cannot
beat this system for ease of use.

The Epson inks are not cheap, of course.

But, all-in-all, if you want a method to make b&w prints with minimal fuss
and mystery, then I don't know how you could do better then this.

Dave.

-- 
Web Site: www.david-keenan.com
2007 PAW: www.david-keenan.com/paw
2006 EuroBlog: www.david-keenan.com/euroblog


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Dedicated Black and White System Overview

2007-03-06 by Steve

Cool!  Now I need you to be rich for me... :-) 
The R2400is out of my reach at the moment.
I'm going to end up with a refurb'd R1800 and buy a black and white 
ink set for it in the next few months.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David Keenan" 
<ausdlk@...> wrote:
>
> >Can't someone just be smart for me? ;-)
> 
> Yes.
> 
> Get an Epson R2400 or 3800 and print using the printer's ABW mode.
> 
> The results are great.
> 
> Some purists will gripe about the permanence and the fact that 
there is a
> little bit of color ink used to balance the tonality but you simply 
cannot
> beat this system for ease of use.
> 
> The Epson inks are not cheap, of course.
> 
> But, all-in-all, if you want a method to make b&w prints with 
minimal fuss
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> and mystery, then I don't know how you could do better then this.
> 
> Dave.
> 
> -- 
> Web Site: www.david-keenan.com
> 2007 PAW: www.david-keenan.com/paw
> 2006 EuroBlog: www.david-keenan.com/euroblog
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: Dedicated Black and White System Overview

2007-03-06 by djon43

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve"
<dazedgonebye@...> wrote:

> 
> I'm wishing I could get a hands-on look at output from the various 
> systems, but I can't figure how to make that happen.
>

One way is to go ahead and risk $$ on one of the cheap photo Epsons,
which are surprisingly good out of the box with OEM pigments, then
participate in a print exchange.

I think you'll see that Epsons going back several model cycles are all
capable of credible B&W, used well with OEM pigments/inks, though
you'll probably prefer MIS pigments. You'll develop preferences for
certain machines/inks/papers, but you'll be surprised how well even
the least current Epson replaces a wet darkroom. 

I mention Epson simply because I've not seen much from HP or Canon.

Re: Dedicated Black and White System Overview

2007-03-06 by Steve

Wow...is there anything to do with photography, computing, 
printing...etc that isn't the equivalent of arguing religion?

My initial and primary purpose for a printer will be to make large 
digital negatives for alternative print processes (cyanotypes and van 
dykes).
Just about any large format printer will do that for me.
So, the black and white aspect is secondary, and something that I can 
afford to work my way into over time.
Also, I have almost no interest whatsoever in printing color.
I am interested in the piezotone system and their claims that no 
flushing is needed between switching cart sets.  If this is so (is 
it?), I think that may be the way to go.  I can print my negs with the 
standard carts and print b&w from the piezo carts.  If I never master 
the piezo system, then I'm out the cost of those inks and still in 
great shape for my digital negatives.  

Considering that I have no interest in color, and a r1800 should do as 
well with aftermarket dedicated black and white as a R2400 (I 
think???), then I don't see a lot of advantage to the R2400 for me.

So I guess one important question is;
Are piezo carts swapable in the way they say they are?

Re: Dedicated Black and White System Overview

2007-03-06 by studio9chik

hey there steve - i own the r1800 and have had a great experience trying the different 
piezotone inks.  i made the decision to purchase the 1800 as it was considerably less 
expensive and those extra dollars allowed for ink and consumables.  

yes ... the carts are easily swappable and in my experience needed no extra work.  and as 
a result of this ease in swapping out the carts you can purchase individual inks from the 
sepia and neutrals and create your own "look" as i did.  i finally decided to purchase a cis 
and along with my own piezotone recipe of sepia  and neutral inks, i'm excited to start 
printing in earnest. 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <dazedgonebye@...> 
wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Wow...is there anything to do with photography, computing, 
> printing...etc that isn't the equivalent of arguing religion?
> 
> My initial and primary purpose for a printer will be to make large 
> digital negatives for alternative print processes (cyanotypes and van 
> dykes).
> Just about any large format printer will do that for me.
> So, the black and white aspect is secondary, and something that I can 
> afford to work my way into over time.
> Also, I have almost no interest whatsoever in printing color.
> I am interested in the piezotone system and their claims that no 
> flushing is needed between switching cart sets.  If this is so (is 
> it?), I think that may be the way to go.  I can print my negs with the 
> standard carts and print b&w from the piezo carts.  If I never master 
> the piezo system, then I'm out the cost of those inks and still in 
> great shape for my digital negatives.  
> 
> Considering that I have no interest in color, and a r1800 should do as 
> well with aftermarket dedicated black and white as a R2400 (I 
> think???), then I don't see a lot of advantage to the R2400 for me.
> 
> So I guess one important question is;
> Are piezo carts swapable in the way they say they are?
>

Re: Dedicated Black and White System Overview

2007-03-06 by Steve

That's encouraging, thanks!

I'd love the savings of a cis, but once I go with one, I'm pretty 
much stuck with whatever ink set up I have...right?
I mean, I can't easily remove the cis and pop in alternative 
carts...or can I?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "studio9chik" 
<laelia@...> wrote:
>
> hey there steve - i own the r1800 and have had a great experience 
trying the different 
> piezotone inks.  i made the decision to purchase the 1800 as it was 
considerably less 
> expensive and those extra dollars allowed for ink and consumables.  
> 
> yes ... the carts are easily swappable and in my experience needed 
no extra work.  and as 
> a result of this ease in swapping out the carts you can purchase 
individual inks from the 
> sepia and neutrals and create your own "look" as i did.  i finally 
decided to purchase a cis 
> and along with my own piezotone recipe of sepia  and neutral inks, 
i'm excited to start 
> printing in earnest. 
>

Re: Dedicated Black and White System Overview

2007-03-06 by studio9chik

i actually don't have that answer. a call to inkjetmall could answer that.  btw there's a 
yahoo group for piezotone questions and concerns.
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <dazedgonebye@...> 
wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> That's encouraging, thanks!
> 
> I'd love the savings of a cis, but once I go with one, I'm pretty 
> much stuck with whatever ink set up I have...right?
> I mean, I can't easily remove the cis and pop in alternative 
> carts...or can I?
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "studio9chik" 
> <laelia@> wrote:
> >
> > hey there steve - i own the r1800 and have had a great experience 
> trying the different 
> > piezotone inks.  i made the decision to purchase the 1800 as it was 
> considerably less 
> > expensive and those extra dollars allowed for ink and consumables.  
> > 
> > yes ... the carts are easily swappable and in my experience needed 
> no extra work.  and as 
> > a result of this ease in swapping out the carts you can purchase 
> individual inks from the 
> > sepia and neutrals and create your own "look" as i did.  i finally 
> decided to purchase a cis 
> > and along with my own piezotone recipe of sepia  and neutral inks, 
> i'm excited to start 
> > printing in earnest. 
> >
>

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Dedicated Black and White System Overview

2007-03-06 by Eric Neilsen Photo

Steve, The piezotone inks, not K6 or K7 will not stick to Pictorico OHP. I
used Freestyles Ultra Clear. I am not however very happy using those to make
digital negs. The new K3 ink set, Epson 4800, 3800, will do a better job of
making digital negs.  

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

214-827-8301

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

 

Skype : ejprinter

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 3:42 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Dedicated Black and White System Overview

 

That's encouraging, thanks!

I'd love the savings of a cis, but once I go with one, I'm pretty 
much stuck with whatever ink set up I have...right?
I mean, I can't easily remove the cis and pop in alternative 
carts...or can I?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "studio9chik" 
<laelia@...> wrote:
>
> hey there steve - i own the r1800 and have had a great experience 
trying the different 
> piezotone inks. i made the decision to purchase the 1800 as it was 
considerably less 
> expensive and those extra dollars allowed for ink and consumables. 
> 
> yes ... the carts are easily swappable and in my experience needed 
no extra work. and as 
> a result of this ease in swapping out the carts you can purchase 
individual inks from the 
> sepia and neutrals and create your own "look" as i did. i finally 
decided to purchase a cis 
> and along with my own piezotone recipe of sepia and neutral inks, 
i'm excited to start 
> printing in earnest. 
> 

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Dedicated Black and White System Overview

2007-03-06 by Jeff Randall

Steve:  I recently bought a refurbed R1800 for dedicated BW printing 
based on exactly the same reasoning you mention regarding the R2400. 
It has worked very well for me -- I used to fight the 3 1270/1280s 
and their clogging that I bought over the last 6 years.  I also use 
to use CIS systems, but I really like the 1800's individual carts -- 
I'm now sold.  The MIS carts (and I would assume the same for Piezo 
carts) on the 1800 are easy to swap in and out and reset and the 
refilling process is now second nature.  I've run about 700 prints 
through my 1800 with no clogging problems.

I use Paul Roark's 4K+Ccm inkset (MIS inks and carts) and inking 
profiles generated with QTR.  I'll post my draft carbon and neutral 
profiles (currently only for EEM) and ink positions here in the 
files section soon.  They aren't perfect, but they can serve as a 
starting place. 

Now the fine print...This is all my personal experience, YMMV.

Good Luck

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" 
<dazedgonebye@...> wrote:
> 
> Considering that I have no interest in color, and a r1800 should 
do as 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> well with aftermarket dedicated black and white as a R2400 (I 
> think???), then I don't see a lot of advantage to the R2400 for me.
> 
> So I guess one important question is;
> Are piezo carts swapable in the way they say they are?
>

[Digital BW] Re: Dedicated Black and White System Overview

2007-03-07 by Steve

It's a shame the piezotone inks won't work on OHP.  I'd just load a 
cis with those inks and never change anything.



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Neilsen 
Photo " <e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
>
> Steve, The piezotone inks, not K6 or K7 will not stick to Pictorico 
OHP. I
> used Freestyles Ultra Clear. I am not however very happy using 
those to make
> digital negs. The new K3 ink set, Epson 4800, 3800, will do a 
better job of
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> making digital negs.  
> 
>  
> 
> Eric Neilsen Photography
> 
> 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
> 
> Dallas, TX 75226
> 
> 214-827-8301
> 
> http://ericneilsenphotography.com
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Dedicated Black and White System Overview

2007-03-07 by Mark Savoia

They may work in the future when Jon gets done with the version of  
inks that will work on glossy media.
Mark
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Mar 6, 2007, at 7:32 PM, Steve wrote:

> It's a shame the piezotone inks won't work on OHP.  I'd just load a
> cis with those inks and never change anything.
>
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Neilsen
> Photo " <e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
>>
>> Steve, The piezotone inks, not K6 or K7 will not stick to Pictorico
> OHP. I
>> used Freestyles Ultra Clear. I am not however very happy using
> those to make
>> digital negs. The new K3 ink set, Epson 4800, 3800, will do a
> better job of
>> making digital negs.
>>
>>
>>
>> Eric Neilsen Photography
>>
>> 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
>>
>> Dallas, TX 75226
>>
>> 214-827-8301
>>
>> http://ericneilsenphotography.com
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
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Re: Dedicated Black and White System Overview

2007-03-07 by Steve

I need to read up on Mr. Roark's products.  The little bit I found 
confused my newbie brain.  There seem to be so many approaches to the 
problem.
Are you refilling your carts yourself?  If I can't go with a CIS and 
maintain the versatility I want, I may want to do refills.  Ink costs 
so dang much more than printers....

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Randall" 
<jrandall@...> wrote:
>
> Steve:  I recently bought a refurbed R1800 for dedicated BW 
printing 
> based on exactly the same reasoning you mention regarding the 
R2400. 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> It has worked very well for me -- I used to fight the 3 1270/1280s 
> and their clogging that I bought over the last 6 years.  I also use 
> to use CIS systems, but I really like the 1800's individual carts --
 
> I'm now sold.  The MIS carts (and I would assume the same for Piezo 
> carts) on the 1800 are easy to swap in and out and reset and the 
> refilling process is now second nature.  I've run about 700 prints 
> through my 1800 with no clogging problems.
> 
> I use Paul Roark's 4K+Ccm inkset (MIS inks and carts) and inking 
> profiles generated with QTR.  I'll post my draft carbon and neutral 
> profiles (currently only for EEM) and ink positions here in the 
> files section soon.  They aren't perfect, but they can serve as a 
> starting place. 
> 
> Now the fine print...This is all my personal experience, YMMV.
> 
> Good Luck
>

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Dedicated Black and White System Overview

2007-03-07 by Paul Roark

Steve,

>I need to read up on Mr. Roark's products.

Let me clarify where I'm coming from.

I don't have any ink or printer products.  What I do is publish the
workflows and profiles I come up with.  MIS Associates has a business model
that is simply to sell what people want.  So, when they found people were
following up on my workflows, they started to put them on their web page as
their products.

>The little bit I found confused my newbie brain.

Some of the newer ones are not very user friendly write-ups just due to lack
of time these days.

> There seem to be so many approaches to the problem.

True, but it more or less follows the progress of printers.  It also follows
my learning curve.  So, the older inksets are not exactly what I might want
to use today.  

Lately you'll notice that I not longer am satisfied with just a single
toner.  The UT2 and UT7, while they have a sepia, in the neutral range they
are only adjustable along a straight line between carbon and the cool toner
-- close to the Lab B axis.  While this is more flexible than a monotone
inkset, when every paper has a slightly different reaction to ink, not only
along the Lab B axis (yellow-blue) but also along the A axis (red/magenta -
green), I became frustrated at the inability to accurately profile along
that axis.  Add to this variations that inevitably occur from one batch of
ink to the next, and I've decided for my perfectionist side, I need to be
able to profile both Lab A and B, not to mention "linearize" the gray ramp.

The latest approach -- what I sometimes call the 4K+cm -- is basically a K3
approach: K, LK and LLK.  But since carbon is too warm for most of what I
do, I tone the prints neutral with LC and LM. Since my old 7500 has big,
non-variable dots, I need to dilute the LC by 50% to increase smoothness.
With modern printers this is really not necessary.  

I also add a 4th K by having PK in the mix.  This ads a little between the
LK and MK, but, again, in modern printers the effect is minimal.  It's
mostly there so that I can print glossy without changing inks.

I've also added a more dilute LLK, what I call an LLLK (.3 LLK, .7 base).
This adds no visible smoothness on the 2200.  What it does is lower
lightfastness.  Not only are more dilute inks less lightfast, but also they
print warmer.  This thus causes more LC and LM to be needed.  Color pigments
are not, in general, as lightfast as the MIS carbon inks.

I also have C in my 2200.  This is marginally useful in matte printing, but
I expect it to be useful for glossy because a neutralized PK is darker than
a warm PK.  So, I'll generate a 100% black patch with a combination of PK
and C. 

In my 220 I'm going to go to a 3K+cmy, adding the yellow.  This allows not
only a sepia, but it also allows me to match the brightened paper to the mat
board.  I currently print down the too-bright paper borders with 2% carbon,
but a little yellow will do a better job.  (It can also be interesting for
slit tones.)

One reason for my current approach is also so that standard inks can be
used.  One thing we've all probably found as we move from one printer to the
next is that we have wasted inks.  I'd like to stop that.  I'd also like to
have the maximum competition from sellers.  (I'm an old antitrust law
enforcer.  So, promoting competition has been a lifestyle for years.)  So,
I'm cheap and like low prices for good products.  Competition is what gets
us that result.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

[Digital BW] Re: Dedicated Black and White System Overview

2007-03-07 by Steve

I think I understood some of that Paul....

The thing is, I don't want to know as much as you obviously know 
about all of this.
I realize that attitude might get my lynched on a technical board 
like this...but it's true.
I want to be able to drop in carts, do some adjustments in software, 
and have a better than fair chance of getting results that please me.

To drive a nail, I need to know how to swing a hammer.  I don't need 
a background in physics.  
Because I trust in the power of the marketplace.  I'm pretty sure 
that there is now, or will be in the future, a perfectly useable 
selection of hammers out there from which I can choose one or two 
that fit my needs.

I'm grateful there are folks out there thinking of these things in 
the terms you describe...I'm just never going to be one of them.



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> Steve,
> 
> >I need to read up on Mr. Roark's products.
> 
> Let me clarify where I'm coming from.
> 
> I don't have any ink or printer products.  What I do is publish the
> workflows and profiles I come up with.  MIS Associates has a 
business model
> that is simply to sell what people want.  So, when they found 
people were
> following up on my workflows, they started to put them on their web 
page as
> their products.
> 
> >The little bit I found confused my newbie brain.
> 
> Some of the newer ones are not very user friendly write-ups just 
due to lack
> of time these days.
> 
> > There seem to be so many approaches to the problem.
> 
> True, but it more or less follows the progress of printers.  It 
also follows
> my learning curve.  So, the older inksets are not exactly what I 
might want
> to use today.  
> 
> Lately you'll notice that I not longer am satisfied with just a 
single
> toner.  The UT2 and UT7, while they have a sepia, in the neutral 
range they
> are only adjustable along a straight line between carbon and the 
cool toner
> -- close to the Lab B axis.  While this is more flexible than a 
monotone
> inkset, when every paper has a slightly different reaction to ink, 
not only
> along the Lab B axis (yellow-blue) but also along the A axis 
(red/magenta -
> green), I became frustrated at the inability to accurately profile 
along
> that axis.  Add to this variations that inevitably occur from one 
batch of
> ink to the next, and I've decided for my perfectionist side, I need 
to be
> able to profile both Lab A and B, not to mention "linearize" the 
gray ramp.
> 
> The latest approach -- what I sometimes call the 4K+cm -- is 
basically a K3
> approach: K, LK and LLK.  But since carbon is too warm for most of 
what I
> do, I tone the prints neutral with LC and LM. Since my old 7500 has 
big,
> non-variable dots, I need to dilute the LC by 50% to increase 
smoothness.
> With modern printers this is really not necessary.  
> 
> I also add a 4th K by having PK in the mix.  This ads a little 
between the
> LK and MK, but, again, in modern printers the effect is minimal.  
It's
> mostly there so that I can print glossy without changing inks.
> 
> I've also added a more dilute LLK, what I call an LLLK (.3 LLK, .7 
base).
> This adds no visible smoothness on the 2200.  What it does is lower
> lightfastness.  Not only are more dilute inks less lightfast, but 
also they
> print warmer.  This thus causes more LC and LM to be needed.  Color 
pigments
> are not, in general, as lightfast as the MIS carbon inks.
> 
> I also have C in my 2200.  This is marginally useful in matte 
printing, but
> I expect it to be useful for glossy because a neutralized PK is 
darker than
> a warm PK.  So, I'll generate a 100% black patch with a combination 
of PK
> and C. 
> 
> In my 220 I'm going to go to a 3K+cmy, adding the yellow.  This 
allows not
> only a sepia, but it also allows me to match the brightened paper 
to the mat
> board.  I currently print down the too-bright paper borders with 2% 
carbon,
> but a little yellow will do a better job.  (It can also be 
interesting for
> slit tones.)
> 
> One reason for my current approach is also so that standard inks 
can be
> used.  One thing we've all probably found as we move from one 
printer to the
> next is that we have wasted inks.  I'd like to stop that.  I'd also 
like to
> have the maximum competition from sellers.  (I'm an old antitrust 
law
> enforcer.  So, promoting competition has been a lifestyle for 
years.)  So,
> I'm cheap and like low prices for good products.  Competition is 
what gets
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> us that result.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

[Digital BW] Re: Dedicated Black and White System Overview

2007-03-07 by Roger

How much effort do you want to put into it?  Maybe you should also 
look at HP 8450?  I saw an 8750 quite cheap the other day at Staples 
(ink costs may be high however)

http://photo-i.co.uk/Reviews/printers/HP%208450/page-4.htm


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" 
<dazedgonebye@...> wrote:
>
> I think I understood some of that Paul....
> 
> The thing is, I don't want to know as much as you obviously know 
> about all of this.
> I realize that attitude might get my lynched on a technical board 
> like this...but it's true.
> I want to be able to drop in carts, do some adjustments in 
software, 
> and have a better than fair chance of getting results that please 
me.
> 
> To drive a nail, I need to know how to swing a hammer.  I don't 
need 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> a background in physics.  
> Because I trust in the power of the marketplace.  I'm pretty sure 
> that there is now, or will be in the future, a perfectly useable 
> selection of hammers out there from which I can choose one or two 
> that fit my needs.
> 
> I'm grateful there are folks out there thinking of these things in 
> the terms you describe...I'm just never going to be one of them.

Re: Dedicated Black and White System Overview

2007-03-07 by Jeff Randall

The "Roark" inksets you are talking about are all MIS products and 
many of them have been suggested and developed by Paul Roark.  Most 
are designed to work with the Epson driver. There can be a lot of 
tweaking, but there are many canned curves/profiles. See the MIS and 
Paul's web sites for more details.


The alternative approach is to use a RIP like QTR or IJC to generate 
profiles and replace the Epson driver.  

As CDTobie indicated in an earlier post, the easiest way to go for BW 
is to use an OEM inkset.  For smoothest BW my opinion is that one 
needs at least 3 shades of black (my personal preference is 4 
blacks).  This really is a matter of your taste in print output -- 2 
shades of black or black only may suit your needs.  Three shades means 
currently using the Epson K3 inkset in a matching printer (assuming 
Epson is your choice).  Other inksets and printers are on the way. 

I now refill my carts rather than use CIS systems.  The ink costs are 
identical because I buy the same bulk quantities of inks for either 
approach.  My personal experience is that CIS systems are more prone 
to problems unless you print every day and the individual cart 
approach allows me to quickly change inksets and to experiment with 
new inksets.  Moreover, the CIS carts will not likely last any longer 
than the regular refillable carts -- both will need to be replaced 
periodically (~1 to 2 years based on my personal experience).

The R1800 is a good platform for BW, but you can't use the OEM inkset 
unless you only want to do black only printing.  The R2400 is a good 
OEM BW platform, but costs a lot more than the R1800.



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" 
<dazedgonebye@...> wrote:
>
> I need to read up on Mr. Roark's products.  The little bit I found 
> confused my newbie brain.  There seem to be so many approaches to 
the 
> problem.
> Are you refilling your carts yourself?  If I can't go with a CIS and 
> maintain the versatility I want, I may want to do refills.  Ink 
costs 
> so dang much more than printers....

Re: Dedicated Black and White System Overview

2007-03-07 by Steve

Jeff,
What refill system are you using?  The spongeless carts from 
inksupply.com look like a good idea, but I have no idea.
Refilling would give me the cost savings without sacrificing 
versatility...so I'm interested, of course.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Randall" 
<jrandall@...> wrote:
>
> The "Roark" inksets you are talking about are all MIS products and 
> many of them have been suggested and developed by Paul Roark.  Most 
> are designed to work with the Epson driver. There can be a lot of 
> tweaking, but there are many canned curves/profiles. See the MIS 
and 
> Paul's web sites for more details.
> 
> 
> The alternative approach is to use a RIP like QTR or IJC to 
generate 
> profiles and replace the Epson driver.  
> 
> As CDTobie indicated in an earlier post, the easiest way to go for 
BW 
> is to use an OEM inkset.  For smoothest BW my opinion is that one 
> needs at least 3 shades of black (my personal preference is 4 
> blacks).  This really is a matter of your taste in print output -- 
2 
> shades of black or black only may suit your needs.  Three shades 
means 
> currently using the Epson K3 inkset in a matching printer (assuming 
> Epson is your choice).  Other inksets and printers are on the way. 
> 
> I now refill my carts rather than use CIS systems.  The ink costs 
are 
> identical because I buy the same bulk quantities of inks for either 
> approach.  My personal experience is that CIS systems are more 
prone 
> to problems unless you print every day and the individual cart 
> approach allows me to quickly change inksets and to experiment with 
> new inksets.  Moreover, the CIS carts will not likely last any 
longer 
> than the regular refillable carts -- both will need to be replaced 
> periodically (~1 to 2 years based on my personal experience).
> 
> The R1800 is a good platform for BW, but you can't use the OEM 
inkset 
> unless you only want to do black only printing.  The R2400 is a 
good 
> OEM BW platform, but costs a lot more than the R1800.

Re: Dedicated Black and White System Overview

2007-03-07 by Jeff Randall

I use the MIS refillable carts.  They have two chambers: one chamber 
without sponge and one with for my R1800.  As with most gravity 
refillable systems, you will also need some syringes, needles, a 
chip resetter, bulk inks -- the same bulk inks you would buy to feed 
a CIS system, and bottom fill adapters to suck/purge the air from 
the cart outlet ports the first time you fill the cart.  I 
personally like to use one syringe/needle combo for each ink to keep 
cleaning time down to a minimum during the refilling operation.  
They are all reasonably priced and worth the time saving.

The first time fill can be a little messy and time consumming, but 
once you've mastered the technique, it is easy and quick.  

Note:  The MIS chip resetter does not fit exactly the R1800 
carts...so you have to manually align the cart on the resetter.  MIS 
has told me that they do not intend to manufacture another plastic 
guide for the 1800. Just so you know.

Remember all this is my experience and opinion -- YMMV.



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" 
<dazedgonebye@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Jeff,
> What refill system are you using?  The spongeless carts from 
> inksupply.com look like a good idea, but I have no idea.
> Refilling would give me the cost savings without sacrificing 
> versatility...so I'm interested, of course.
>

Re: Dedicated Black and White System Overview

2007-03-07 by Jeff Randall

I forgot to make it crystal clear that I use the MIS refill carts 
for my R1800 that come with chips for the total price of $5.50 each 
(see carts, epson, select R1800 and go to the bottom of the page).  
The totally spongeless carts are $5.50 + cost of chips and you have 
to mess around with installing the chips on the carts.

The MIS web site is poorly organized in certain areas and it is easy 
to get lost.




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" 
<dazedgonebye@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Jeff,
> What refill system are you using?  The spongeless carts from 
> inksupply.com look like a good idea, but I have no idea.
> Refilling would give me the cost savings without sacrificing 
> versatility...so I'm interested, of course.
> 
>

Re: Dedicated Black and White System Overview

2007-03-07 by Steve

Thanks Jeff,
I just ordered my R1800 from Epson and 2 sets of the Generations carts 
from Media Street.
I'll likely sell the original epson carts that will come with the 
printer and go right to the Generations ink.  I need to calibrate my 
digital negatives to a single ink and I'd rather not have to switch 
when it comes time to start refilling my own.
If all goes well, I'll add piezotones to my arsenal in some months 
from now.
Thanks for the input.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Randall" 
<jrandall@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I forgot to make it crystal clear that I use the MIS refill carts 
> for my R1800 that come with chips for the total price of $5.50 each 
> (see carts, epson, select R1800 and go to the bottom of the page).  
> The totally spongeless carts are $5.50 + cost of chips and you have 
> to mess around with installing the chips on the carts.
> 
> The MIS web site is poorly organized in certain areas and it is easy 
> to get lost.

[Digital BW] Re: Dedicated Black and White System Overview

2007-03-07 by Bob Marsolais

Paul,
-
>
> In my 220 I'm going to go to a 3K+cmy, adding the yellow....
>
> One reason for my current approach is also so that standard inks can be
> used. One thing we've all probably found as we move from one printer
to the
> next is that we have wasted inks.

You mentioned LC and LM for your 7500.  Is that because of the large
dot sizes?  Would it be correct to assume your standard "4k+cm"
inksets are as follows?

Six ink printers such as the 220 (and I assume1280):  mk, lk, llk, pk,
c, and m.  Substitute y for pk if you want to match matting on matte
prints.

Seven ink printers:  mk, lk, llk, lllk, c, m, and pk.  On variable dot
size printers, substitute y for lllk to match matte (and increase
lightfastness?).

Eight Ink Printers: mk, pk, lk, llk, lllk, c, m, and y.

It would appear that since lllk has decreases lightfastness, there is
no real advantage to a seven or eight ink printer.  Both could do
matte and gloss with the inclusion of pk and match the paper to the
matting.

Which leads to my final question:  If one uses your profiled inkset,
what advantages do the $850 R2400's or $1300 3800 have over the $550
1800 (other that the 17" width of the 3800)?

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Dedicated Black and White System Overview

2007-03-08 by Paul Roark

Hi Bob,

> > In my 220 I'm going to go to a 3K+cmy, adding the yellow....
>
> >One reason for my current approach is also so that 
> > standard inks can be used. One thing we've all probably 
> > found as we move from one printer to the
> > next is that we have wasted inks.

>You mentioned LC and LM for your 7500. 
> Is that because of the large dot sizes?

Actually, in the old 7500, with it's large and non-variable dots, I dilute
the LC 50%.  In new printers that is not necessary.  I do have the diluted
LC in my 2200 also, in part just for consistency with my 7500, but it's
marginal in how much smoothness it adds.  For most people the advantages of
a standard ink would probably outweigh the incremental smoothness from the
dilution.  Also, I'm trying to unify workflows, which have come to resemble
the fabled "Tower of Babel."  Since Epson has established a de facto
standard in their very successful K3 printers, I'm inclined to think a third
party approach that is consistent with that would be most useful.  

> Would it be correct to assume your standard "4k+cm" 
> inksets are as follows?

> Six ink printers such as the 220 (and I assume1280): mk, lk, llk, 
> pk, c, and m. Substitute y for pk if you want to match matting on
> matte prints.

Actually, I'm inclined to let people continue to swap out the MK - PK in
hextone printers.  If we have yellow in there, we can make sepia and also
match the borders to the mats.  So, I'm going to try LC = LC, LM = LM, Y =
Y, C = LK, M = LLK.

>Seven ink printers: mk, lk, llk, lllk, c, m, and pk.

I've pulled the LLLK on my 2200.  It added no smoothness and takes more
color to offset its warmer printing.  So, it's going to be less lightfast.
In my 2200 I have PK in all the time and use it between the LK and MK.  Its
usefulness is marginal, but since it's there, I might as well use it.
Again, since it is more dense than the LK, it reduces the amount of color
needed in the shadows.  

(I'm interested in whether a 1.5 PL dot size even needs to be LLK.  The less
dilute ink we use the better in terms of lightfastness, etc.  Also, many,
including the BO aficionados, think that more paper showing through the
highlights improves them.)


> On variable dot size printers, substitute y for lllk to match matte 
>(and increase lightfastness?).

There are no 7 ink Epson printers that are not variable dot, I believe.  So,
where the LLLK would really add something is on a machine like my 7500.
However, I'd rather have PK in there than LLLK.  So, I just live with a bit
of grain in my display prints.  Even the LLK is light enough that for
display print purposes I don't think anything lighter is needed.  If I were
doing small prints on the 7500, I might not be as satisfied.

> Eight Ink Printers: mk, pk, lk, llk, lllk, c, m, and y.

I'd rather have glop, or dark cyan in there than LLLK.

To be honest, I'm not sure I'd alter the ink positions of a 3800 at all.
The magenta is the least useful for B&W, but I might prefer to just have the
3800 do everything, including color.  The feedback I've seen indicates these
are very good B&W printers as is.  One must recall that our hacking in B&W
was primarily due to the fact that standard printers could not do good B&W.
That simply is not the case any more.  The easiest way to improve the B&W on
a 3800 is to use a rip, not mess with inks.  Old darkroom guys like me will
always be inclined to want to do something different just because it is
different.  However, the main practical reason to use a custom inkset today
is to avoid the cost of the Epson k3 printers.

> If one uses your profiled inkset, what advantages do the 
> $850 R2400's or $1300 3800 have over the $550
> 1800 (other that the 17" width of the 3800)?

The 2400 Advanced B&W mode is easy, even if it is a compromise in some
respects, and the Epson driver is fast.  If one puts carbon in the Y
position, the 2400 ABW mode prints become as lightfast with as low a
metamerism as any.  So, there are some reasons one might want a 2400, as
well as the obvious one of being able to print color as well as B&W.  (I
currently use my 2400 for color.)  

The 3800 is really about 17" paper and having the MK and PK more easily
switched than in other large format printers.  While this list has lots of
people who have no interest in color printing, I find color printing to be a
necessary occasionally.  I think the vast majority of people who buy a 3800
and prefer B&W will, nonetheless, leave the OEM ink positions as is.  So,
again, my interest is to have a workflow that is consistent with that likely
reality, but cheaper.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: Dedicated Black and White System Overview

2007-03-09 by Bob Marsolais

Paul,

Thanks for the very complete explanation.  The learning was in the reasoning
behind your choices.

Concerning 6 ink printers, you said you're "inclined to let people continue
to swap out the MK - PK in
hextone printers. If we have yellow in there, we can make sepia and also
match the borders to the mats. So, I'm going to try LC = LC, LM = LM, Y = Y,
C = LK, M = LLK."

That makes more sense.  Besides, for the 1280 (which may have the last
multi-ink cartridge in printers used on this list), you only need to switch
out the black cartridge for MK or PK.  That gives we six ink users easy
matte and semigloss/glossy paper selection.

Also, if one wanted a dedicated B&W printer, the 1400 could be a very
affordable "3K" printer for 13" papers and not have the 1280's clogging and
maintenance issues.  (MIS says they will not have spongeless cartridges for
the 1400 "for at least 6 months".  In other words, they'll eventually have
them.)


Bob


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