Digital BW, The Print

I spend loads of time in PS making the image look just the way I want
but when I print it, it's up to 30% lighter than what I see on screen.
So I adjust the screen image to be 30% darker and it looks lousy on
the screen but it's "closer" to what I wanted on the print. Still I
feel I'm losing something doing it this way. I also have no idea what
people are seeing on their monitors when I email them a sample image.
(no complaints to date but it concerns me.)

At the moment I just don't have the funds for an expensive calibration
software. Anyone have experience with the cheaper Spyder
version.."Spyder 2" I think it's called. Are there any other options
out there?

Any response would be most welcome as I have a show coming up next
month and I'm at wits ends.

Thanks,

Tim

P.S.

I'm using an NEC Multisync Fp1355 CRT monitor. 21" I believe.

Costco (not an advertisment or an endoresment on my part) is offering
this LCD plus a $30 rebate:

Sceptre 20.1" W DVI
5ms 1000:1 300 cd/m2
1680 x 1050 WSXGA+ 
Digital & Analog Connections
Built-in Speakers 
 
$209.99 
Item # 146898 
Shipping & Handling: $17.03 
 
 So it ends up under $200. Is it worth the switch? I've never used
LCD's before.

Tim

Tim,

 

You don't say what your platform is (PC or Apple) nor your version of PS nor
your printer make and model. I use a PC (home built), PS2, and an Epson 1280
and get excellent prints that match the image on my screen for both color
and density.  You MUST do two things: Profile your monitor (and possibly
your printer, see below) and ensure that your printer settings are correct.
For my monitor I use the original Colorvision Spyder which works just fine.
I profile once a month and before any major printing session. I have not
profiled my printer as the generic profiles from Epson work just fine for my
paper/ink combo. The key (once the monitor is properly profiled) is to
ensure that PS is determining the colors and that the printer is not adding
its two cents. Be sure that all printer color settings are turned off, in
the case of my 1280 it's selecting "no color adjustment" and invoking the
appropriate profile for your paper/ink combo. In my case I use the "Epson
Stylus Photo 1290 Premium Glossy Photo Paper" profile which, as I said,
works just fine.

 

If you want more detail with regard to proper printer settings contact me
off-list, Thomas@....

 

Good luck!

 

Tom Maugham

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Timmermans
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 3:47 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] It's soooo frustrating

 

I spend loads of time in PS making the image look just the way I want
but when I print it, it's up to 30% lighter than what I see on screen.
So I adjust the screen image to be 30% darker and it looks lousy on
the screen but it's "closer" to what I wanted on the print. Still I
feel I'm losing something doing it this way. I also have no idea what
people are seeing on their monitors when I email them a sample image.
(no complaints to date but it concerns me.)

At the moment I just don't have the funds for an expensive calibration
software. Anyone have experience with the cheaper Spyder
version.."Spyder 2" I think it's called. Are there any other options
out there?

Any response would be most welcome as I have a show coming up next
month and I'm at wits ends.

Thanks,

Tim

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tim,

 

I have been using an older version of the Spyder and it has served me well.
As you know, the color space is multi dimensional so liner adjustments are
often ineffectual.  By adjusting your monitor to the accepted standard you
are at least not out on the edge of the color space.  Calibrating your
monitor is essential.  

 

Good luck.

 

Harkey

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Timmermans
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 3:47 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] It's soooo frustrating

 

I spend loads of time in PS making the image look just the way I want
but when I print it, it's up to 30% lighter than what I see on screen.
So I adjust the screen image to be 30% darker and it looks lousy on
the screen but it's "closer" to what I wanted on the print. Still I
feel I'm losing something doing it this way. I also have no idea what
people are seeing on their monitors when I email them a sample image.
(no complaints to date but it concerns me.)

At the moment I just don't have the funds for an expensive calibration
software. Anyone have experience with the cheaper Spyder
version.."Spyder 2" I think it's called. Are there any other options
out there?

Any response would be most welcome as I have a show coming up next
month and I'm at wits ends.

Thanks,

Tim

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I should also have mentioned that if you are printing monochrome (black and
white) you should switch off the color nozzles if your printer so allows
otherwise you will get an undesirable color cast on your print.

 

Tom

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Timmermans
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 3:47 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] It's soooo frustrating

 

I spend loads of time in PS making the image look just the way I want
but when I print it, it's up to 30% lighter than what I see on screen.
So I adjust the screen image to be 30% darker and it looks lousy on
the screen but it's "closer" to what I wanted on the print. Still I
feel I'm losing something doing it this way. I also have no idea what
people are seeing on their monitors when I email them a sample image.
(no complaints to date but it concerns me.)

At the moment I just don't have the funds for an expensive calibration
software. Anyone have experience with the cheaper Spyder
version.."Spyder 2" I think it's called. Are there any other options
out there?

Any response would be most welcome as I have a show coming up next
month and I'm at wits ends.

Thanks,

Tim

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tim, In PS you must check and set up the view that your screen is showing.
On the View tab, go to proof set up and tell us what it is telling you. Tom
mentioned the printer controls but it is important to first determine what
PS is showing you. When I first started using PS at a studio I made a
horrible assumption; that the person showing me what he wanted done KNEW how
to set up PS. Well the prints never looked like what I had on screen. It
turned out that some where in setting stuff up, he set the default view to
the Yellow Plate of CMYK. 

 

The Proof view is the first best place to start; without it being correct a
calibrated monitor means very little.  Then go down stream in your workflow
to assigned profile. 2.2 , 1.8, Dot Gain? Then output devices. Good luck

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street

Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

http://e.neilsen.home.att.net

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

Skype ejprinter

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Timmermans
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 2:47 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] It's soooo frustrating

 

I spend loads of time in PS making the image look just the way I want
but when I print it, it's up to 30% lighter than what I see on screen.
So I adjust the screen image to be 30% darker and it looks lousy on
the screen but it's "closer" to what I wanted on the print. Still I
feel I'm losing something doing it this way. I also have no idea what
people are seeing on their monitors when I email them a sample image.
(no complaints to date but it concerns me.)

At the moment I just don't have the funds for an expensive calibration
software. Anyone have experience with the cheaper Spyder
version.."Spyder 2" I think it's called. Are there any other options
out there?

Any response would be most welcome as I have a show coming up next
month and I'm at wits ends.

Thanks,

Tim

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The dogma is to calibrate the system, but, frankly, for B&W I did just fine
for a long time with just the Adobe Gamma routine to "profile" my monitor.

 

After that, it's a question of printing workflow.  If you're using a color
managed system, the print should be close to the monitor, but they are never
exact.  

 

When I print with either the IJC or QTR rips, they are not color managed.
So, while I like to standardize on a Gray Gamma 2.2 profile for working up
the image (set in PS Edit>Color Settings), they "linearize" to a straight
line, which is a different distribution of gray levels.  The prints will
look lighter in the shadows since the GG 2.2 toe is substantially
compressed.  (Dot gain 20% is closer to what these rips print.)

 

To compensate for this, I have a PS image adjustment curve that translates
my GG 2.2 image to what fits these linear printing workflows.  I just stick
a curves layer with this curve on the image for printing, and the system
then prints fine.

 

So, basically, I'd say your simplest adjustment would be an image adjustment
curve that caused the monitor to match the print.  Use a 21-step test file
to make this.  I have several posted here:
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Test-files.htm   

 

Good luck.

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Timmermans
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 12:47 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] It's soooo frustrating

 

I spend loads of time in PS making the image look just the way I want
but when I print it, it's up to 30% lighter than what I see on screen.
So I adjust the screen image to be 30% darker and it looks lousy on
the screen but it's "closer" to what I wanted on the print. Still I
feel I'm losing something doing it this way. I also have no idea what
people are seeing on their monitors when I email them a sample image.
(no complaints to date but it concerns me.)

At the moment I just don't have the funds for an expensive calibration
software. Anyone have experience with the cheaper Spyder
version.."Spyder 2" I think it's called. Are there any other options
out there?

Any response would be most welcome as I have a show coming up next
month and I'm at wits ends.

Thanks,

Tim

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tim,

The Spyder 2 Pro (about $250) works well, though I think it has just been
upgraded to a new model.  My 21" CRT finally got to the point where I could
no longer reliably calibrate it (they do wear out).  I bought a 21" LCD and
dvi card and it was a big improvement.  Myself, I gave up some time back and
went with Imageprint.  It was expensive, but I figured it was cheaper than
the inevitable psychotherapy or rehab.  B&W or color, I get a monitor/print
match the first or second time (taking into account the difference between a
backlit and reflective image).

I have an article around here somewhere on how to build a custom dot gain
curve for the b&w space in PS to better match the print.  I can look for it
if you like.

Ken

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim
> Timmermans
> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 2:47 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] It's soooo frustrating
> 
> I spend loads of time in PS making the image look just the way I want
> but when I print it, it's up to 30% lighter than what I see on screen.
> So I adjust the screen image to be 30% darker and it looks lousy on
> the screen but it's "closer" to what I wanted on the print. Still I
> feel I'm losing something doing it this way. I also have no idea what
> people are seeing on their monitors when I email them a sample image.
> (no complaints to date but it concerns me.)
> 
> At the moment I just don't have the funds for an expensive calibration
> software. Anyone have experience with the cheaper Spyder
> version.."Spyder 2" I think it's called. Are there any other options
> out there?
> 
> Any response would be most welcome as I have a show coming up next
> month and I'm at wits ends.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Tim

Tim, you can get a Samsung 204B 20.1" dvi 1600x1200 at Newegg for $305 after
rebate.  I bought one for my son, who uses it for PS, and it is fine for the
money.  Check the warranty for the Samsung vs. the Sceptre - the Samsung may
be longer.

Ken

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim
> Timmermans
> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 2:59 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: It's soooo frustrating
> 
> P.S.
> 
> I'm using an NEC Multisync Fp1355 CRT monitor. 21" I believe.
> 
> Costco (not an advertisment or an endoresment on my part) is offering
> this LCD plus a $30 rebate:
> 
> Sceptre 20.1" W DVI
> 5ms 1000:1 300 cd/m2
> 1680 x 1050 WSXGA+
> Digital & Analog Connections
> Built-in Speakers
> 
> $209.99
> Item # 146898
> Shipping & Handling: $17.03
> 
>  So it ends up under $200. Is it worth the switch? I've never used
> LCD's before.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Maugham"
<Thomas@...> wrote:
>

> You don't say what your platform is (PC or Apple) nor your version
of PS nor
> your printer make and model. I use a PC (home built), PS2, and an
Epson 1280
> and get excellent prints that match the image on my screen for both
color
> and density. >>>>

Duh..my bad. I'm using a PC and PS7.0 and a 1280. I also have an R1800
but I'm taking it back to Comp USA. It just drove me crazy and the
bronzing (even with the spray) was just too disturbing.

My monitor was used when it was givne to me. I don't know it's
history. NEC Multisync FP 1355.

By the way my proof setup is "working CMYK."
I am printing both color and BW. I do in fact switch to BO when
printing BW.

The color settings are set as follows:

I'm sure the following makes sense to most of you but it is chinese to me.

Custom
RGB  SRGB IEc61966-21
CMYK US WEB COATED (SWOP) V2
GRAY GAMMA 2.2
SPOT: DOT GAIN 20%
RGB, CMYK, GRAY...ALL "OFF"


I thank you all for your responses. One of my problems here is not
unlike the problems I have with my music. I have played on Grammy
Winning Cd's and I have several Cd's of my own music that I've
released over the years on several different labels.
I am a gifted composer and instrumentalist but I'm not a great
recording engineer. I end up, like most musicians, having to hire an
engineer to do the final mix. I'm just not a tech guy with music or
photography but I don't want to farm out my prints

 With photography I am blessed with an eye for great imagery but I
struggle on the technical side of printing. I just get the image set
to where it looks right and print the damn thing. Sometimes it's
WISIWIG but other times it's not even close.

 Folks like our brilliant friend Paul and many others of this group
might share my opinion of my imagery but will find the many of the
prints themselves woefully lacking.

I just want it to be easy. I want something that will show an image on
the monitor that actually represents what I have and a print process
that will match that.

I'm exhibiting with increasingly greater success and I plan to start
being more aggressive in that vein. I just waste too much time and
money on failed prints. I know it's not a "one button" world but it
has to be easier than it has been to date. I suppose Calibration is a
neccessity but my NEC 21" CRT monitor was given to me so I don't know
how old it is. That is why I'm considering the 21" LCD from Costco. (I
understand they also have a fairly liberal return policy on monitors.)

I guess I have to breakdown and get the Spyder Pro. Spyder 2 isn't
good enough? Maybe not for exhibit prints eh?

I thank you all for your indulgence and support. This is a wonderful
forum and I am in awe of your group expertise.

Many thanks,

Tim












 You MUST do two things: Profile your monitor (and possibly
> your printer, see below) and ensure that your printer settings are
correct.
> For my monitor I use the original Colorvision Spyder which works
just fine.
> I profile once a month and before any major printing session. I have not
> profiled my printer as the generic profiles from Epson work just
fine for my
> paper/ink combo. The key (once the monitor is properly profiled) is to
> ensure that PS is determining the colors and that the printer is not
adding
> its two cents. Be sure that all printer color settings are turned
off, in
> the case of my 1280 it's selecting "no color adjustment" and
invoking the
> appropriate profile for your paper/ink combo. In my case I use the
"Epson
> Stylus Photo 1290 Premium Glossy Photo Paper" profile which, as I said,
> works just fine.
> 
>  
> 
> If you want more detail with regard to proper printer settings
contact me

> off-list, Thomas@...
> 
>  
> 
> Good luck!
> 
>  
> 
> Tom Maugham
> 
>  
> 
>   _____  
> 
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim
> Timmermans
> Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2007 3:47 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] It's soooo frustrating
> 
>  
> 
> I spend loads of time in PS making the image look just the way I want
> but when I print it, it's up to 30% lighter than what I see on screen.
> So I adjust the screen image to be 30% darker and it looks lousy on
> the screen but it's "closer" to what I wanted on the print. Still I
> feel I'm losing something doing it this way. I also have no idea what
> people are seeing on their monitors when I email them a sample image.
> (no complaints to date but it concerns me.)
> 
> At the moment I just don't have the funds for an expensive calibration
> software. Anyone have experience with the cheaper Spyder
> version.."Spyder 2" I think it's called. Are there any other options
> out there?
> 
> Any response would be most welcome as I have a show coming up next
> month and I'm at wits ends.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Tim
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Here are a few ideas that I hope will be helpful. First, it's almost a given
that you must calibrate your monitor. There are several very inexpensive
calibrators now that didn't exist a few years ago. The Pantone Huey and the
Colorvision Spider Express are both under $100 and either will be FAR better
than nothing.

Second, learning the Photoshop dialog boxes for printing is hard enough, but
when you actually click the print button, you go from Photoshop into the
Epson driver where there are a bunch of other dialog boxes. You have to know
what the settings should be here to avoid double profiling. It's way too
easy to make a mistake and the best advice is to sit down with someone who
actually knows what they're doing to go through these boxes and what each
means. It is NOT intuitive.

Third, I suggest you look into QImage. This is a printing program that many
Windows users rave about (unavailable for the Mac), something I have no
personal knowledge of but I've heard that using it bypasses both Photoshop
and the Epson drivers completely making it hard to double profile.

Last, I have to second the person who mentioned the criticality of
softproofing if you stay with Photoshop for printing. I the "View" menu,
under softproofing, there is a list of profiles. You MUST SELECT the one for
the paper you are using, NOT the default profile. Otherwise, you're not
really proofing on screen. Using the softproof feature is what allows
Photoshop to "understand" what printer/ink/paper combination you are using
and approximate it on screen. Yu can toggle beetween softproofing on and off
to see the difference, all under the View menu.

You might also try a couple of the many color management books on the market
to further clarify these things.

Best of luck...

Rick

Tim,

Before you buy the Spyder, check out Digital Light and Color's monitor
and scanner profiling packages.  In a review article that covered all
the current monitor profile generators, the DL&C package (Profile
Mechanic-Monitor) was at the top for accuracy and is the most
inexpensive at $180.  Their scanner package (Profile Mechanic-Scanner,
$60 plus targets) is also very good.  Total cost for both is about the
Spyder price and you get both monitor and scanner profile generators.
 I purchased both packages and am very satisfied.  I have no
connection with DL-C.  Their web address is www.dl-c.com.

A couple of points mentioned by others.

1 Your setup should be RGB. The Epson printer is an RGB device. If you 
are using a printing press then yes use CMYK.

2. Qimage is good at printing. But turn off colour in the Epson driver 
and use a profile from your paper manufacture within Qimage, in fact 
let Qimage control everything.

3 Qimage does not replace Photoshop. Do your colour adjustments in PS 
and then save to disk. Then let Qimage resize to the final print size 
for you.

4 You may want to try Quadgui for B&W's.

http://www.ddisoftware.com/qimage/

 
http://www.sbillard.org/Shareware/QTRgui.htm

hope that helps

Peter Banks
New Zealand


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Marsolais" 
<bob@...> wrote:

>
> Tim,
> 
> Before you buy the Spyder, check out Digital Light and Color's monitor
> and scanner profiling packages.  In a review article that covered all
> the current monitor profile generators, the DL&C package (Profile
> Mechanic-Monitor) was at the top for accuracy and is the most
> inexpensive at $180.  Their scanner package (Profile Mechanic-Scanner,
> $60 plus targets) is also very good.  Total cost for both is about the
> Spyder price and you get both monitor and scanner profile generators.
>  I purchased both packages and am very satisfied.  I have no
> connection with DL-C.  Their web address is www.dl-c.com.
>

Tim, silly question, but are you Tim Timmermans as in "Poems of the
Five Mountains" or "Seven Bridges"?

Ciao!

Joe