Digital BW, The Print

Greetings Group,

I am a new member with a traditional b&w film/darkroom background and 
now converted to digital. I've been blown away by the quality of some 
b&w digital prints I saw recently and am totally fascinated with 
creating b&w images from the rgb digital pix I am taking now. I work 
in PSCS and am reasonably proficient. I'm fairly pleased with the 
channel mixer style of creating b&w (but always open to trying new 
methods) and I'm ready to take the next step and print. I need some 
recommendations and advice for:

Printers - I have a preference for HP products but will listen to 
group wisdom

Inks - I'm guessing that I must replace the standard color inks with 
grayscale inks - what is involved, software, drivers, etc? Who makes 
the best inks?

Papers - I print alot so super expensive papers are not good for my 
wallet. I tend to favor matte or semi-gloss papers and sometimes 
print duotone

Any and all help and advice is much appreciated.

Alan Trembly
atrembly@...

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "atrembly2001" 
<atrembly@...> wrote:
>
> Greetings Group,
> 
> I am a new member with a traditional b&w film/darkroom background 
and 
> now converted to digital. I've been blown away by the quality of 
some 
> b&w digital prints I saw recently and am totally fascinated with 
> creating b&w images from the rgb digital pix I am taking now. I 
work 
> in PSCS and am reasonably proficient. I'm fairly pleased with the 
> channel mixer style of creating b&w (but always open to trying new 
> methods) and I'm ready to take the next step and print. I need some 
> recommendations and advice for:
> 
> Printers - I have a preference for HP products but will listen to 
> group wisdom
> 
> Inks - I'm guessing that I must replace the standard color inks 
with 
> grayscale inks - what is involved, software, drivers, etc? Who 
makes 
> the best inks?
> 
> Papers - I print alot so super expensive papers are not good for my 
> wallet. I tend to favor matte or semi-gloss papers and sometimes 
> print duotone
> 
> Any and all help and advice is much appreciated.
> 
> Alan Trembly
> atrembly@...
>
Printers--Most of us on this group use Epson printers I think. I 
started with an Epson 1280--in fact I went through two of them before 
getting the Epson 2400. Now this is my printer of choice.

Inks--I use the 2400 with replacement inks from MIS 
(www.inksupply.com) and am printing both BW and COLOR with them to my 
satisfaction. Another choice of inks is from Cone 
(www.inkjetmall.com). I haven't used them though.

Papers--Most of my personal printing is on Epsoh HW Matte paper and 
the rare print for others is on the same paper. If I ever sell 
prints, I'll go to a better grade paper. You should get many 
responses from here on the different papers.


Your friend in Photography,

Johnny

Alan,

I am a novice at this but I would highly recommend that you check out
Clayton Jones website and read EVERYTHING and go to the MIS ink
website inksupply.com and look at all the information on B&W printing
and check out the site that Paul Roark put together. I've used the MIS
EZN inksets with an Epson C86 and had a lot of fun with it. I now have
an Epson R220 and am making very satisfying prints with BO (black
only) printing. The C86 and R220 are limited to letter size prints. 

If you have money to burn and want to print larger the conventional
wisdom with Epson users is to get the 2400 and print in ABW (advanced
black and white). If you want to spend less, get a used  Epson 2200P
(no longer sold by Epson as I found out when I went to buy one after
paying my holiday bills) and the MIS inks. As far as HP goes, there
have been really good reports by people using the HP B9180 for B&W as
well and that will put you somewhere between the price of the Epson
2400 and a used 2200P.

Sometime in the next year I am planning on going with one of the three
larger format printers I just mentioned. If I were you I would start
small and see if you can still get an Epson R220 if you like mat
prints. Epson no longer carries them but Ritz Camera still does-that's
how I got mine. Get the MIS neutral inkset (I tried the warm and it is
too warm for me) try full ink printing and BO printing. If you like
glossy or semi-glossy prints go with a C88 and get the MIS EZN inkset
but I found that BO didn't work well at all with my C86. If you go
with an Epson the refurbs are a great deal!
 
I know there are more experienced users out there and they may have a 
different take on how to get started. Hope I didn't step on anyones toes.

Scott

Alan, while I don't have the experience with the variety of printers that many of the other 
members of this group do...we've had a great success of teaching students on the Epson 
2400 printers with Red River papers...beautiful quality using the Advanced Black and White 
(ABW) mode on the printer for B&W prints; and using Red River's profiles for profile RGB 
printing from PS CS2.  Red River's downloadable profiles for the 2400 are as close as you 
could hope for.  ABW will take a bit of testing on your paper to maximize quality.

Easy, and good quality!

-Barry Snidow


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "atrembly2001" <atrembly@...> 
wrote:

>
> Greetings Group,
> 
> I am a new member with a traditional b&w film/darkroom background and 
> now converted to digital. I've been blown away by the quality of some 
> b&w digital prints I saw recently and am totally fascinated with 
> creating b&w images from the rgb digital pix I am taking now. I work 
> in PSCS and am reasonably proficient. I'm fairly pleased with the 
> channel mixer style of creating b&w (but always open to trying new 
> methods) and I'm ready to take the next step and print. I need some 
> recommendations and advice for:
> 
> Printers - I have a preference for HP products but will listen to 
> group wisdom
> 
> Inks - I'm guessing that I must replace the standard color inks with 
> grayscale inks - what is involved, software, drivers, etc? Who makes 
> the best inks?
> 
> Papers - I print alot so super expensive papers are not good for my 
> wallet. I tend to favor matte or semi-gloss papers and sometimes 
> print duotone
> 
> Any and all help and advice is much appreciated.
> 
> Alan Trembly
> atrembly@...
>

--- scottkathe1 <scott.kathe@...> wrote:
scott i have a c86, but am intersted in knowing the
difference in it and the c88 . can you tell me? thanks
frank
> Alan,
> 
> I am a novice at this but I would highly recommend
> that you check out
> Clayton Jones website and read EVERYTHING and go to
> the MIS ink
> website inksupply.com and look at all the
> information on B&W printing
> and check out the site that Paul Roark put together.
> I've used the MIS
> EZN inksets with an Epson C86 and had a lot of fun
> with it. I now have
> an Epson R220 and am making very satisfying prints
> with BO (black
> only) printing. The C86 and R220 are limited to
> letter size prints. 
> 
> If you have money to burn and want to print larger
> the conventional
> wisdom with Epson users is to get the 2400 and print
> in ABW (advanced
> black and white). If you want to spend less, get a
> used  Epson 2200P
> (no longer sold by Epson as I found out when I went
> to buy one after
> paying my holiday bills) and the MIS inks. As far as
> HP goes, there
> have been really good reports by people using the HP
> B9180 for B&W as
> well and that will put you somewhere between the
> price of the Epson
> 2400 and a used 2200P.
> 
> Sometime in the next year I am planning on going
> with one of the three
> larger format printers I just mentioned. If I were
> you I would start
> small and see if you can still get an Epson R220 if
> you like mat
> prints. Epson no longer carries them but Ritz Camera
> still does-that's
> how I got mine. Get the MIS neutral inkset (I tried
> the warm and it is
> too warm for me) try full ink printing and BO
> printing. If you like
> glossy or semi-glossy prints go with a C88 and get
> the MIS EZN inkset
> but I found that BO didn't work well at all with my
> C86. If you go
> with an Epson the refurbs are a great deal!
>  
> I know there are more experienced users out there
> and they may have a 
> different take on how to get started. Hope I didn't
> step on anyones toes.
> 
> Scott
> 
> 



 
____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't get soaked.  Take a quick peek at the forecast
with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather

Frank,

The C88 is the newer version and I think there is also a C88+ I saw at
the local Radio Shack for about $50. The cartridges are the same see
http://inksupply.com/utez.cfm. Maybe the C88 is better (and I just
don't know if it is better or not) but for full ink printing I was
very satisfied with the lowly C86 and the EZN inks (I had a warm in
the yellow position).

Can somebody else help out here?

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, frank cxhicarelli
<olachica3333@...> wrote:
>
> 
> --- scottkathe1 <scott.kathe@...> wrote:
> scott i have a c86, but am intersted in knowing the
> difference in it and the c88 . can you tell me? thanks
> frank
> > Alan,
> > 
> > I am a novice at this but I would highly recommend
> > that you check out
> > Clayton Jones website and read EVERYTHING and go to
> > the MIS ink
> > website inksupply.com and look at all the
> > information on B&W printing
> > and check out the site that Paul Roark put together.
> > I've used the MIS
> > EZN inksets with an Epson C86 and had a lot of fun
> > with it. I now have
> > an Epson R220 and am making very satisfying prints
> > with BO (black
> > only) printing. The C86 and R220 are limited to
> > letter size prints. 
> > 
> > If you have money to burn and want to print larger
> > the conventional
> > wisdom with Epson users is to get the 2400 and print
> > in ABW (advanced
> > black and white). If you want to spend less, get a
> > used  Epson 2200P
> > (no longer sold by Epson as I found out when I went
> > to buy one after
> > paying my holiday bills) and the MIS inks. As far as
> > HP goes, there
> > have been really good reports by people using the HP
> > B9180 for B&W as
> > well and that will put you somewhere between the
> > price of the Epson
> > 2400 and a used 2200P.
> > 
> > Sometime in the next year I am planning on going
> > with one of the three
> > larger format printers I just mentioned. If I were
> > you I would start
> > small and see if you can still get an Epson R220 if
> > you like mat
> > prints. Epson no longer carries them but Ritz Camera
> > still does-that's
> > how I got mine. Get the MIS neutral inkset (I tried
> > the warm and it is
> > too warm for me) try full ink printing and BO
> > printing. If you like
> > glossy or semi-glossy prints go with a C88 and get
> > the MIS EZN inkset
> > but I found that BO didn't work well at all with my
> > C86. If you go
> > with an Epson the refurbs are a great deal!
> >  
> > I know there are more experienced users out there
> > and they may have a 
> > different take on how to get started. Hope I didn't
> > step on anyones toes.
> > 
> > Scott
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
>  
>
____________________________________________________________________________________

> Don't get soaked.  Take a quick peek at the forecast
> with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
> http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather
>

Hi Johnny,

Thanks for your help. In looking at other posts, I see that Epson 
appears to be the printer of choice. I had a bad experience with 
Epson a few years ago with one of their printers but I guess I'll 
have to look again. Any idea on the best place to buy one?

Do you think it's worth it to have a dedicated b&w printer? 

Thanks again,

Alan




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny Eades" 
<jeades1@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "atrembly2001" 
> <atrembly@> wrote:
> >
> > Greetings Group,
> > 
> > I am a new member with a traditional b&w film/darkroom background 
> and 
> > now converted to digital. I've been blown away by the quality of 
> some 
> > b&w digital prints I saw recently and am totally fascinated with 
> > creating b&w images from the rgb digital pix I am taking now. I 
> work 
> > in PSCS and am reasonably proficient. I'm fairly pleased with the 
> > channel mixer style of creating b&w (but always open to trying 
new 
> > methods) and I'm ready to take the next step and print. I need 
some 
> > recommendations and advice for:
> > 
> > Printers - I have a preference for HP products but will listen to 
> > group wisdom
> > 
> > Inks - I'm guessing that I must replace the standard color inks 
> with 
> > grayscale inks - what is involved, software, drivers, etc? Who 
> makes 
> > the best inks?
> > 
> > Papers - I print alot so super expensive papers are not good for 
my 
> > wallet. I tend to favor matte or semi-gloss papers and sometimes 
> > print duotone
> > 
> > Any and all help and advice is much appreciated.
> > 
> > Alan Trembly
> > atrembly@
> >
> Printers--Most of us on this group use Epson printers I think. I 
> started with an Epson 1280--in fact I went through two of them 
before 
> getting the Epson 2400. Now this is my printer of choice.
> 
> Inks--I use the 2400 with replacement inks from MIS 
> (www.inksupply.com) and am printing both BW and COLOR with them to 
my 

> satisfaction. Another choice of inks is from Cone 
> (www.inkjetmall.com). I haven't used them though.
> 
> Papers--Most of my personal printing is on Epsoh HW Matte paper and 
> the rare print for others is on the same paper. If I ever sell 
> prints, I'll go to a better grade paper. You should get many 
> responses from here on the different papers.
> 
> 
> Your friend in Photography,
> 
> Johnny
>

Hi Johnny,

Thanks for your help. In looking at other posts, I see that Epson 
appears to be the printer of choice. I had a bad experience with 
Epson a few years ago with one of their printers but I guess I'll 
have to look again. Any idea on the best place to buy one?

Do you think it's worth it to have a dedicated b&w printer? 

Thanks again,

Alan




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny Eades" 
<jeades1@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "atrembly2001" 
> <atrembly@> wrote:
> >
> > Greetings Group,
> > 
> > I am a new member with a traditional b&w film/darkroom background 
> and 
> > now converted to digital. I've been blown away by the quality of 
> some 
> > b&w digital prints I saw recently and am totally fascinated with 
> > creating b&w images from the rgb digital pix I am taking now. I 
> work 
> > in PSCS and am reasonably proficient. I'm fairly pleased with the 
> > channel mixer style of creating b&w (but always open to trying 
new 
> > methods) and I'm ready to take the next step and print. I need 
some 
> > recommendations and advice for:
> > 
> > Printers - I have a preference for HP products but will listen to 
> > group wisdom
> > 
> > Inks - I'm guessing that I must replace the standard color inks 
> with 
> > grayscale inks - what is involved, software, drivers, etc? Who 
> makes 
> > the best inks?
> > 
> > Papers - I print alot so super expensive papers are not good for 
my 
> > wallet. I tend to favor matte or semi-gloss papers and sometimes 
> > print duotone
> > 
> > Any and all help and advice is much appreciated.
> > 
> > Alan Trembly
> > atrembly@
> >
> Printers--Most of us on this group use Epson printers I think. I 
> started with an Epson 1280--in fact I went through two of them 
before 
> getting the Epson 2400. Now this is my printer of choice.
> 
> Inks--I use the 2400 with replacement inks from MIS 
> (www.inksupply.com) and am printing both BW and COLOR with them to 
my 

> satisfaction. Another choice of inks is from Cone 
> (www.inkjetmall.com). I haven't used them though.
> 
> Papers--Most of my personal printing is on Epsoh HW Matte paper and 
> the rare print for others is on the same paper. If I ever sell 
> prints, I'll go to a better grade paper. You should get many 
> responses from here on the different papers.
> 
> 
> Your friend in Photography,
> 
> Johnny
>

Hi Johnny,

Thanks for your help. In looking at other posts, I see that Epson 
appears to be the printer of choice. I had a bad experience with 
Epson a few years ago with one of their printers but I guess I'll 
have to look again. Any idea on the best place to buy one?

Do you think it's worth it to have a dedicated b&w printer? 

Thanks again,

Alan




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny Eades" 
<jeades1@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "atrembly2001" 
> <atrembly@> wrote:
> >
> > Greetings Group,
> > 
> > I am a new member with a traditional b&w film/darkroom background 
> and 
> > now converted to digital. I've been blown away by the quality of 
> some 
> > b&w digital prints I saw recently and am totally fascinated with 
> > creating b&w images from the rgb digital pix I am taking now. I 
> work 
> > in PSCS and am reasonably proficient. I'm fairly pleased with the 
> > channel mixer style of creating b&w (but always open to trying 
new 
> > methods) and I'm ready to take the next step and print. I need 
some 
> > recommendations and advice for:
> > 
> > Printers - I have a preference for HP products but will listen to 
> > group wisdom
> > 
> > Inks - I'm guessing that I must replace the standard color inks 
> with 
> > grayscale inks - what is involved, software, drivers, etc? Who 
> makes 
> > the best inks?
> > 
> > Papers - I print alot so super expensive papers are not good for 
my 
> > wallet. I tend to favor matte or semi-gloss papers and sometimes 
> > print duotone
> > 
> > Any and all help and advice is much appreciated.
> > 
> > Alan Trembly
> > atrembly@
> >
> Printers--Most of us on this group use Epson printers I think. I 
> started with an Epson 1280--in fact I went through two of them 
before 
> getting the Epson 2400. Now this is my printer of choice.
> 
> Inks--I use the 2400 with replacement inks from MIS 
> (www.inksupply.com) and am printing both BW and COLOR with them to 
my 

> satisfaction. Another choice of inks is from Cone 
> (www.inkjetmall.com). I haven't used them though.
> 
> Papers--Most of my personal printing is on Epsoh HW Matte paper and 
> the rare print for others is on the same paper. If I ever sell 
> prints, I'll go to a better grade paper. You should get many 
> responses from here on the different papers.
> 
> 
> Your friend in Photography,
> 
> Johnny
>

Hi Johnny,

Thanks for your help. In looking at other posts, I see that Epson 
appears to be the printer of choice. I had a bad experience with 
Epson a few years ago with one of their printers but I guess I'll 
have to look again. Any idea on the best place to buy one?

Do you think it's worth it to have a dedicated b&w printer? 

Thanks again,

Alan




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny Eades" 
<jeades1@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "atrembly2001" 
> <atrembly@> wrote:
> >
> > Greetings Group,
> > 
> > I am a new member with a traditional b&w film/darkroom background 
> and 
> > now converted to digital. I've been blown away by the quality of 
> some 
> > b&w digital prints I saw recently and am totally fascinated with 
> > creating b&w images from the rgb digital pix I am taking now. I 
> work 
> > in PSCS and am reasonably proficient. I'm fairly pleased with the 
> > channel mixer style of creating b&w (but always open to trying 
new 
> > methods) and I'm ready to take the next step and print. I need 
some 
> > recommendations and advice for:
> > 
> > Printers - I have a preference for HP products but will listen to 
> > group wisdom
> > 
> > Inks - I'm guessing that I must replace the standard color inks 
> with 
> > grayscale inks - what is involved, software, drivers, etc? Who 
> makes 
> > the best inks?
> > 
> > Papers - I print alot so super expensive papers are not good for 
my 
> > wallet. I tend to favor matte or semi-gloss papers and sometimes 
> > print duotone
> > 
> > Any and all help and advice is much appreciated.
> > 
> > Alan Trembly
> > atrembly@
> >
> Printers--Most of us on this group use Epson printers I think. I 
> started with an Epson 1280--in fact I went through two of them 
before 
> getting the Epson 2400. Now this is my printer of choice.
> 
> Inks--I use the 2400 with replacement inks from MIS 
> (www.inksupply.com) and am printing both BW and COLOR with them to 
my 

> satisfaction. Another choice of inks is from Cone 
> (www.inkjetmall.com). I haven't used them though.
> 
> Papers--Most of my personal printing is on Epsoh HW Matte paper and 
> the rare print for others is on the same paper. If I ever sell 
> prints, I'll go to a better grade paper. You should get many 
> responses from here on the different papers.
> 
> 
> Your friend in Photography,
> 
> Johnny
>

Thanks for the advice Scott. I had a bad experience with Epson but it 
seems that they make the printers of choice for b&w. 

Onward and upward.

Alan

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scottkathe1" 
<scott.kathe@...> wrote:
>
> Alan,
> 
> I am a novice at this but I would highly recommend that you check 
out
> Clayton Jones website and read EVERYTHING and go to the MIS ink
> website inksupply.com and look at all the information on B&W 
printing
> and check out the site that Paul Roark put together. I've used the 
MIS
> EZN inksets with an Epson C86 and had a lot of fun with it. I now 
have
> an Epson R220 and am making very satisfying prints with BO (black
> only) printing. The C86 and R220 are limited to letter size prints. 
> 
> If you have money to burn and want to print larger the conventional
> wisdom with Epson users is to get the 2400 and print in ABW 
(advanced
> black and white). If you want to spend less, get a used  Epson 2200P
> (no longer sold by Epson as I found out when I went to buy one after
> paying my holiday bills) and the MIS inks. As far as HP goes, there
> have been really good reports by people using the HP B9180 for B&W 
as
> well and that will put you somewhere between the price of the Epson
> 2400 and a used 2200P.
> 
> Sometime in the next year I am planning on going with one of the 
three
> larger format printers I just mentioned. If I were you I would start
> small and see if you can still get an Epson R220 if you like mat
> prints. Epson no longer carries them but Ritz Camera still does-
that's
> how I got mine. Get the MIS neutral inkset (I tried the warm and it 
is
> too warm for me) try full ink printing and BO printing. If you like
> glossy or semi-glossy prints go with a C88 and get the MIS EZN 
inkset
> but I found that BO didn't work well at all with my C86. If you go
> with an Epson the refurbs are a great deal!
>  
> I know there are more experienced users out there and they may have 
a 
> different take on how to get started. Hope I didn't step on anyones 
toes.

> 
> Scott
>

Thanks Barry. Can you give a bit more on Red River and where I can 
get it/them?

Alan

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Barry" 
<barrysnidow@...> wrote:
>
> Alan, while I don't have the experience with the variety of 
printers that many of the other 
> members of this group do...we've had a great success of teaching 
students on the Epson 
> 2400 printers with Red River papers...beautiful quality using the 
Advanced Black and White 
> (ABW) mode on the printer for B&W prints; and using Red River's 
profiles for profile RGB 
> printing from PS CS2.  Red River's downloadable profiles for the 
2400 are as close as you 
> could hope for.  ABW will take a bit of testing on your paper to 
maximize quality.
> 
> Easy, and good quality!
> 
> -Barry Snidow
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "atrembly2001" 
<atrembly@> 
> wrote:
> >
> > Greetings Group,
> > 
> > I am a new member with a traditional b&w film/darkroom background 
and 
> > now converted to digital. I've been blown away by the quality of 
some 
> > b&w digital prints I saw recently and am totally fascinated with 
> > creating b&w images from the rgb digital pix I am taking now. I 
work 
> > in PSCS and am reasonably proficient. I'm fairly pleased with the 
> > channel mixer style of creating b&w (but always open to trying 
new 
> > methods) and I'm ready to take the next step and print. I need 
some 
> > recommendations and advice for:
> > 
> > Printers - I have a preference for HP products but will listen to 
> > group wisdom
> > 
> > Inks - I'm guessing that I must replace the standard color inks 
with 
> > grayscale inks - what is involved, software, drivers, etc? Who 
makes 
> > the best inks?
> > 
> > Papers - I print alot so super expensive papers are not good for 
my 

> > wallet. I tend to favor matte or semi-gloss papers and sometimes 
> > print duotone
> > 
> > Any and all help and advice is much appreciated.
> > 
> > Alan Trembly
> > atrembly@
> >
>

On Mar 28, 2007, at 6:20 AM, atrembly2001 wrote:

> Hi Johnny,
>
> Thanks for your help. In looking at other posts, I see that Epson
> appears to be the printer of choice. I had a bad experience with
> Epson a few years ago with one of their printers but I guess I'll
> have to look again.

I've had both good and bad, Alan, and so have the people I've known  
who have had HP or Canon printers. I think that's because they're all  
cheaply made and sold to snag more customers for their expensive  
inks. I'd prefer Epson because there is more Epson expertise  
available to you on this list, and I can't imagine doing without this  
list for B&W. Or, if you're on a Mac, on the MacEpsonList, also at  
Yahoo.


> Any idea on the best place to buy one?

When I was shopping for a 2400, Amazon was the best place for me,  
because the price was temporarily less by about $50, shipping was  
free (where it wasn't, the unadvertised shipping charges exceeded any  
price cut), and I don't live in Washington state. My advice is to  
shop around, don't forget the difference shipping and state and local  
sales taxes can make, and don't take a chance, for a small financial  
advantage, on an outlet without a good reputation.


> Do you think it's worth it to have a dedicated b&w printer?

I used to, but now I'd say maybe not if you get a 2400, unless you  
print so much that you need two printers anyway. But then I'm not  
sure it would be best to do it on 2400s. I'm relatively  
inexperienced, though, and eager to hear what others say about two- 
printer configurations. I don't have one of Epson's new dye-based  
printers. But it's occurred to me that one of them might be a useful  
companion to a pigment-based printer if you also print color and,  
when you do, care less about longevity. One of them could double as  
an "office" printer too.
--
Sam

How about the Canon IPF5000 pigment printer.Its suppose to have better
seperation in the low values compared to the Epsons (according to
luminous landscape}, can print pk or mk without wasting any ink, and
is less expensive.

Alan,

You'll get many responses on this question. I'd look on Epson's site 
for a refurbished printer and Ebay (if you are comfortable buying on 
the site}.It is preferable for me to go to a real store where I can 
look eye to eye with someong.Unless you are printing to sell, I'd 
stick with one good printer. I use the R2400 and print both color and 
BW with good results on both. The printer driver has an Advanced 
Black and White mode that is working well for me right now. I've 
tried other methods (Piezography, Black Only, QTR) This may change as 
I grow and learn more about the magic of this medium.

Your friend in Photography,

Johnny

> Do you think it's worth it to have a dedicated b&w printer? 
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
> Alan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny Eades" 
> <jeades1@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "atrembly2001" 
> > <atrembly@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Greetings Group,
> > > 
> > > I am a new member with a traditional b&w film/darkroom 
background 
> > and 
> > > now converted to digital. I've been blown away by the quality 
of 
> > some 
> > > b&w digital prints I saw recently and am totally fascinated 
with 
> > > creating b&w images from the rgb digital pix I am taking now. I 
> > work 
> > > in PSCS and am reasonably proficient. I'm fairly pleased with 
the 
> > > channel mixer style of creating b&w (but always open to trying 
> new 
> > > methods) and I'm ready to take the next step and print. I need 
> some 
> > > recommendations and advice for:
> > > 
> > > Printers - I have a preference for HP products but will listen 
to 
> > > group wisdom
> > > 
> > > Inks - I'm guessing that I must replace the standard color inks 
> > with 
> > > grayscale inks - what is involved, software, drivers, etc? Who 
> > makes 
> > > the best inks?
> > > 
> > > Papers - I print alot so super expensive papers are not good 
for 
> my 
> > > wallet. I tend to favor matte or semi-gloss papers and 
sometimes 
> > > print duotone
> > > 
> > > Any and all help and advice is much appreciated.
> > > 
> > > Alan Trembly
> > > atrembly@
> > >
> > Printers--Most of us on this group use Epson printers I think. I 
> > started with an Epson 1280--in fact I went through two of them 
> before 
> > getting the Epson 2400. Now this is my printer of choice.
> > 
> > Inks--I use the 2400 with replacement inks from MIS 
> > (www.inksupply.com) and am printing both BW and COLOR with them 
to 
> my 
> > satisfaction. Another choice of inks is from Cone 
> > (www.inkjetmall.com). I haven't used them though.
> > 
> > Papers--Most of my personal printing is on Epsoh HW Matte paper 
and 

> > the rare print for others is on the same paper. If I ever sell 
> > prints, I'll go to a better grade paper. You should get many 
> > responses from here on the different papers.
> > 
> > 
> > Your friend in Photography,
> > 
> > Johnny
> >
>

Thanks for the info Sam. I've done some research on the Epson 2400 
and found a refurbished unit direct from Epson for $500. Is that a 
good price?

Alan

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Sam McCandless 
<samcc@...> wrote:
>
> On Mar 28, 2007, at 6:20 AM, atrembly2001 wrote:
> 
> > Hi Johnny,
> >
> > Thanks for your help. In looking at other posts, I see that Epson
> > appears to be the printer of choice. I had a bad experience with
> > Epson a few years ago with one of their printers but I guess I'll
> > have to look again.
> 
> I've had both good and bad, Alan, and so have the people I've 
known  
> who have had HP or Canon printers. I think that's because they're 
all  
> cheaply made and sold to snag more customers for their expensive  
> inks. I'd prefer Epson because there is more Epson expertise  
> available to you on this list, and I can't imagine doing without 
this  
> list for B&W. Or, if you're on a Mac, on the MacEpsonList, also at  
> Yahoo.
> 
> 
> > Any idea on the best place to buy one?
> 
> When I was shopping for a 2400, Amazon was the best place for me,  
> because the price was temporarily less by about $50, shipping was  
> free (where it wasn't, the unadvertised shipping charges exceeded 
any  
> price cut), and I don't live in Washington state. My advice is to  
> shop around, don't forget the difference shipping and state and 
local  
> sales taxes can make, and don't take a chance, for a small 
financial  
> advantage, on an outlet without a good reputation.
> 
> 
> > Do you think it's worth it to have a dedicated b&w printer?
> 
> I used to, but now I'd say maybe not if you get a 2400, unless you  
> print so much that you need two printers anyway. But then I'm not  
> sure it would be best to do it on 2400s. I'm relatively  
> inexperienced, though, and eager to hear what others say about two- 
> printer configurations. I don't have one of Epson's new dye-based  
> printers. But it's occurred to me that one of them might be a 
useful  
> companion to a pigment-based printer if you also print color and,  
> when you do, care less about longevity. One of them could double 
as  

> an "office" printer too.
> --
> Sam
>

Thanks for the info. I'll check it out.

Alan

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "flyflightdeck" 
<cloudswimmer@...> wrote:

>
> How about the Canon IPF5000 pigment printer.Its suppose to have better
> seperation in the low values compared to the Epsons (according to
> luminous landscape}, can print pk or mk without wasting any ink, and
> is less expensive.
>

Thanks again Johnny. I checked out the Epson site and saw a refurb 
2400 for $500. Is that a good price?

Alan

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny Eades" 
<jeades1@...> wrote:
>
> Alan,
> 
> You'll get many responses on this question. I'd look on Epson's 
site 
> for a refurbished printer and Ebay (if you are comfortable buying 
on 
> the site}.It is preferable for me to go to a real store where I can 
> look eye to eye with someong.Unless you are printing to sell, I'd 
> stick with one good printer. I use the R2400 and print both color 
and 
> BW with good results on both. The printer driver has an Advanced 
> Black and White mode that is working well for me right now. I've 
> tried other methods (Piezography, Black Only, QTR) This may change 
as 
> I grow and learn more about the magic of this medium.
> 
> Your friend in Photography,
> 
> Johnny
> 
> > Do you think it's worth it to have a dedicated b&w printer? 
> > 
> > Thanks again,
> > 
> > Alan
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Johnny 
Eades" 
> > <jeades1@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In 
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "atrembly2001" 
> > > <atrembly@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Greetings Group,
> > > > 
> > > > I am a new member with a traditional b&w film/darkroom 
> background 
> > > and 
> > > > now converted to digital. I've been blown away by the quality 
> of 
> > > some 
> > > > b&w digital prints I saw recently and am totally fascinated 
> with 
> > > > creating b&w images from the rgb digital pix I am taking now. 
I 
> > > work 
> > > > in PSCS and am reasonably proficient. I'm fairly pleased with 
> the 
> > > > channel mixer style of creating b&w (but always open to 
trying 
> > new 
> > > > methods) and I'm ready to take the next step and print. I 
need 
> > some 
> > > > recommendations and advice for:
> > > > 
> > > > Printers - I have a preference for HP products but will 
listen 
> to 
> > > > group wisdom
> > > > 
> > > > Inks - I'm guessing that I must replace the standard color 
inks 
> > > with 
> > > > grayscale inks - what is involved, software, drivers, etc? 
Who 
> > > makes 
> > > > the best inks?
> > > > 
> > > > Papers - I print alot so super expensive papers are not good 
> for 
> > my 
> > > > wallet. I tend to favor matte or semi-gloss papers and 
> sometimes 
> > > > print duotone
> > > > 
> > > > Any and all help and advice is much appreciated.
> > > > 
> > > > Alan Trembly
> > > > atrembly@
> > > >
> > > Printers--Most of us on this group use Epson printers I think. 
I 

> > > started with an Epson 1280--in fact I went through two of them 
> > before 
> > > getting the Epson 2400. Now this is my printer of choice.
> > > 
> > > Inks--I use the 2400 with replacement inks from MIS 
> > > (www.inksupply.com) and am printing both BW and COLOR with them 
> to 
> > my 
> > > satisfaction. Another choice of inks is from Cone 
> > > (www.inkjetmall.com). I haven't used them though.
> > > 
> > > Papers--Most of my personal printing is on Epsoh HW Matte paper 
> and 
> > > the rare print for others is on the same paper. If I ever sell 
> > > prints, I'll go to a better grade paper. You should get many 
> > > responses from here on the different papers.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Your friend in Photography,
> > > 
> > > Johnny
> > >
> >
>

It might be the only refurb price, Alan; at least I don't remember  
seeing Epson refurb's for sale anywhere else. And Epson refurb's have  
a good reputation, I believe. I forgot to say in my post that when I  
was shopping for my 2400, they were too new for Epson to have any  
refurb's for sale yet. If they had, I would have bought one.
--
Sam

On Mar 29, 2007, at 7:53 AM, atrembly2001 wrote:

> Thanks for the info Sam. I've done some research on the Epson 2400
> and found a refurbished unit direct from Epson for $500. Is that a
> good price?
>
> Alan
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Sam McCandless
> <samcc@...> wrote:
>>
>> On Mar 28, 2007, at 6:20 AM, atrembly2001 wrote:
>>
>>> [snip]

I'm guessing that the 2400 is the top of the Epson line. Do you have 
any experience or thoughts about other Epson models such as the 1800 
or 1280 or R800?


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Sam McCandless 
<samcc@...> wrote:
>
> It might be the only refurb price, Alan; at least I don't remember  
> seeing Epson refurb's for sale anywhere else. And Epson refurb's 
have  
> a good reputation, I believe. I forgot to say in my post that when 
I  
> was shopping for my 2400, they were too new for Epson to have any  
> refurb's for sale yet. If they had, I would have bought one.
> --
> Sam
> 
> 
> On Mar 29, 2007, at 7:53 AM, atrembly2001 wrote:
> 
> > Thanks for the info Sam. I've done some research on the Epson 2400
> > and found a refurbished unit direct from Epson for $500. Is that a
> > good price?
> >
> > Alan
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Sam 
McCandless

> > <samcc@> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Mar 28, 2007, at 6:20 AM, atrembly2001 wrote:
> >>
> >>> [snip]
>

Does anyone have any suggestions for someone like me who want to start 
but has very little budget and is in the UK. The options for me seem to be
The :
D88+ \ufffd59.98
R265 \ufffd49.99
R360 \ufffd79.99
What would people recommend out of that lot .
It would be nice to be able to choose other but thats the local choice.
Alan


atrembly2001 wrote:

> Thanks for the info Sam. I've done some research on the Epson 2400 
> and found a refurbished unit direct from Epson for $500. Is that a 
> good price?
>
> Alan
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Sam McCandless 
> <samcc@...> wrote:
>   
>> On Mar 28, 2007, at 6:20 AM, atrembly2001 wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> Hi Johnny,
>>>
>>> Thanks for your help. In looking at other posts, I see that Epson
>>> appears to be the printer of choice. I had a bad experience with
>>> Epson a few years ago with one of their printers but I guess I'll
>>> have to look again.
>>>       
>> I've had both good and bad, Alan, and so have the people I've 
>>     
> known  
>   
>> who have had HP or Canon printers. I think that's because they're 
>>     
> all  
>   
>> cheaply made and sold to snag more customers for their expensive  
>> inks. I'd prefer Epson because there is more Epson expertise  
>> available to you on this list, and I can't imagine doing without 
>>     
> this  
>   
>> list for B&W. Or, if you're on a Mac, on the MacEpsonList, also at  
>> Yahoo.
>>
>>
>>     
>>> Any idea on the best place to buy one?
>>>       
>> When I was shopping for a 2400, Amazon was the best place for me,  
>> because the price was temporarily less by about $50, shipping was  
>> free (where it wasn't, the unadvertised shipping charges exceeded 
>>     
> any  
>   
>> price cut), and I don't live in Washington state. My advice is to  
>> shop around, don't forget the difference shipping and state and 
>>     
> local  
>   
>> sales taxes can make, and don't take a chance, for a small 
>>     
> financial  
>   
>> advantage, on an outlet without a good reputation.
>>
>>
>>     
>>> Do you think it's worth it to have a dedicated b&w printer?
>>>       
>> I used to, but now I'd say maybe not if you get a 2400, unless you  
>> print so much that you need two printers anyway. But then I'm not  
>> sure it would be best to do it on 2400s. I'm relatively  
>> inexperienced, though, and eager to hear what others say about two- 
>> printer configurations. I don't have one of Epson's new dye-based  
>> printers. But it's occurred to me that one of them might be a 
>>     
> useful  
>   
>> companion to a pigment-based printer if you also print color and,  
>> when you do, care less about longevity. One of them could double 
>>     
> as  
>   
>> an "office" printer too.
>> --
>> Sam
>>
>>     
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\ufffd in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>  
>

On Mar 29, 2007, at 9:00 AM, atrembly2001 wrote:

> I'm guessing that the 2400 is the top of the Epson line.

Well, Alan, it's the most-recent, 13-inches-wide "prosumer" pigment- 
ink printer. But there's also the even more recent 13-inch Claria-ink  
printer, which I guess is the top of the line for those "prosumers"  
who prefer it's new dye-based inks and don't mind to give up some  
longevity to get them. But there are larger "professional" grade  
Epson (pigment-ink) printers which are used for larger art prints.


> Do you have any experience or thoughts about other Epson models  
> such as the 1800
> or 1280 or R800?

No, Alan, I don't. But when my 1160's finally died, nothing I'd seen  
on this list made me think that any of those would be preferable,  
even at their lower prices, to the 2400. And what I've seen since  
reinforces that.
--
Sam

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Sam McCandless
> <samcc@...> wrote:
>>
>> It might be the only refurb price, Alan; at least I don't remember
>> seeing Epson refurb's for sale anywhere else. And Epson refurb's
> have
>> a good reputation, I believe. I forgot to say in my post that when
> I
>> was shopping for my 2400, they were too new for Epson to have any
>> refurb's for sale yet. If they had, I would have bought one.
>> --
>> Sam
>>
>>
>> On Mar 29, 2007, at 7:53 AM, atrembly2001 wrote:
>>
>>> [snip]

On Mar 29, 2007, at 9:00 AM, atrembly2001 wrote:

> I'm guessing that the 2400 is the top of the Epson line.

At this time, yes. It has the inconvenience of needing to swap black carts 
when switching from matte to gloss media, but otherwise is state of the arts for 
Epson. The 2400 allows users a wide range of options for printing both color 
and B&W from the same machine, with the same inkset. This isn't really true of 
the other models you ask about; with them good B&W requires dedicating the 
printer to B&W only (or make full inkset swaps to change from color to B&W and 
back), and that you use specialized printing methods, usually including a RIP, 
and specialized control methods, usually involving curves or curves built into 
ICC profiles, to print properly to specific papers. Considering that these 
specialty methods is what this list is about, you'll hear a lot about them here. 
Whether they are an interesting area you wish to delve into, or a lot of time 
and effort you wish to avoid is a matter of personal preference. You will 
need to make that decision in conjunction with determining what printer model you 
buy, as the two are intertwined.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


**************************************
 See what's free at 
http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm going to be in the distinct minority here (I assume), but I would
not rule out some of the HP printers as well.  They get very high marks
for B&W (many reviewers see them as serious competition to Epson's
models).  An advantage to the HP's is that they don't have the ink
clogging problems that Epsons seem to be known for.  I have an 8450
which only accommodates 8.5 X 11, but its B&W renditions are very nice
and completely neutral to my eye.

Ken

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sam
> McCandless
> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 12:22 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Need direction and advice
> 
> On Mar 29, 2007, at 9:00 AM, atrembly2001 wrote:
> 
> > I'm guessing that the 2400 is the top of the Epson line.
> 
> Well, Alan, it's the most-recent, 13-inches-wide "prosumer" pigment-
> ink printer. But there's also the even more recent 13-inch Claria-ink
> printer, which I guess is the top of the line for those "prosumers"
> who prefer it's new dye-based inks and don't mind to give up some
> longevity to get them. But there are larger "professional" grade
> Epson (pigment-ink) printers which are used for larger art prints.
> 
> 
> > Do you have any experience or thoughts about other Epson models
> > such as the 1800
> > or 1280 or R800?
> 
> No, Alan, I don't. But when my 1160's finally died, nothing I'd seen
> on this list made me think that any of those would be preferable,
> even at their lower prices, to the 2400. And what I've seen since
> reinforces that.
> --
> Sam
> 
> 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Sam McCandless
> > <samcc@...> wrote:
> >>
> >> It might be the only refurb price, Alan; at least I don't remember
> >> seeing Epson refurb's for sale anywhere else. And Epson refurb's
> > have
> >> a good reputation, I believe. I forgot to say in my post that when
> > I
> >> was shopping for my 2400, they were too new for Epson to have any
> >> refurb's for sale yet. If they had, I would have bought one.
> >> --
> >> Sam
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mar 29, 2007, at 7:53 AM, atrembly2001 wrote:
> >>
> >>> [snip]
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
resources
> as they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish
to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this
> same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital
B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed
> from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
> Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER"
> AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES),
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
THE

> PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR
> TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY
> ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER
> RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
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> 
> 
>