Digital BW, The Print

I received my $300 refurbished Epson R1800 the other day.
Set-up and installation was trouble free.  I loaded the Generations G7 
ink I received from Media Street at a bargain price.
Inks charged and software installed, I realized I'd forgotten one 
little thing...paper!  I don't want to waste my expensive Pictorico 
testing the printer out, so I'll be picking up something today at 
lunch.

Forum question:
Is it ok to list something on topic for sale here?

Well, I experienced some bad banding issues and the head cleaning test 
patterns would not clear up.  
I removed the Generations inks and installed the Epson original inks.  
It all came back in to alignment and is now putting out beautiful color 
prints.
I'm back and forth with the Media Street support people right now.  I'm 
trying to figure out if I should even bother to try putting their inks 
back in or not.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" 
<dazedgonebye@...> wrote:
>
> I received my $300 refurbished Epson R1800 the other day.
> Set-up and installation was trouble free.  I loaded the Generations 
G7 

> ink I received from Media Street at a bargain price.
> Inks charged and software installed, I realized I'd forgotten one 
> little thing...paper!  I don't want to waste my expensive Pictorico 
> testing the printer out, so I'll be picking up something today at 
> lunch.
> 
> Forum question:
> Is it ok to list something on topic for sale here?
>

Well, the "bargain priced inks" weren't such a bargain after all! I
sure would not put them back in! Look at all the time and effort you
have wasted thus far.

John Nollendorfs

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve"
<dazedgonebye@...> wrote:

>
> Well, I experienced some bad banding issues and the head cleaning test 
> patterns would not clear up.  
> I removed the Generations inks and installed the Epson original inks.  
> It all came back in to alignment and is now putting out beautiful color 
> prints.
> I'm back and forth with the Media Street support people right now.  I'm 
> trying to figure out if I should even bother to try putting their inks 
> back in or not.
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" 
> <dazedgonebye@> wrote:
> >
> > I received my $300 refurbished Epson R1800 the other day.
> > Set-up and installation was trouble free.  I loaded the Generations 
> G7 
> > ink I received from Media Street at a bargain price.
> > Inks charged and software installed, I realized I'd forgotten one 
> > little thing...paper!  I don't want to waste my expensive Pictorico 
> > testing the printer out, so I'll be picking up something today at 
> > lunch.
> > 
> > Forum question:
> > Is it ok to list something on topic for sale here?
> >
>

My comments from before still stand.



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "sinar001" 
<jnolly@...> wrote:
>
> Well, the "bargain priced inks" weren't such a bargain after all! I
> sure would not put them back in! Look at all the time and effort you
> have wasted thus far.
> 
> John Nollendorfs
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve"
> <dazedgonebye@> wrote:
> >
> > Well, I experienced some bad banding issues and the head cleaning 
test 
> > patterns would not clear up.  
> > I removed the Generations inks and installed the Epson original 
inks.  
> > It all came back in to alignment and is now putting out beautiful 
color 
> > prints.
> > I'm back and forth with the Media Street support people right 
now.  I'm 
> > trying to figure out if I should even bother to try putting their 
inks 
> > back in or not.

Just seems like someone aught to be able to put out a good product at 
a reasonable price. The prices Epson charges for ink seriously affect 
how much printing I'm able to do.  
I guess ink/carts must be more complicated than they look.

Off topic here, I guess...

Besides the banding problem, the color from the Epson inks is just so 
much better than the Generations.  Really, the Generations prints 
look to be about 20% desaturated versions of the Epson prints.

Back on topic....

I'm surprised at how good the black and white output is from the 
R1800.  On mat paper, the balance is a bit cold.  On glossy, it seems 
right on.
A close look shows that the tonal transitions aren't what I would 
like them to be, but I could show an 8x10 to a non-photographer and 
they'd be thrilled.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" 
<dfaprinting@...> wrote:
>
> My comments from before still stand.
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "sinar001" 
> <jnolly@> wrote:
> >
> > Well, the "bargain priced inks" weren't such a bargain after all! 
I
> > sure would not put them back in! Look at all the time and effort 
you

> > have wasted thus far.
> > 
> > John Nollendorfs
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m, "Steve"
> > <dazedgonebye@> wrote:

Media street advised me to let the inks I removed sit overnight and 
try again.
Instead, I installed the second set of inks I'd bought from them (in 
all my moronic enthusiasm for saving the buck).  I just went through 
two clean/align cycles and I've still got banding all over the place.
I don't know...surely these must work for some people that they sell 
them to.  They can't be surviving with no repeat business at all!

Now I've got to wast good Epson ink switching back and see how much 
of this useless stuff they'll give me my money back on.

Stay tuned for the customer service part of our show....

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" 
<dazedgonebye@...> wrote:
>
> Just seems like someone aught to be able to put out a good product 
at 
> a reasonable price. The prices Epson charges for ink seriously 
affect 
> how much printing I'm able to do.  
> I guess ink/carts must be more complicated than they look.
> 
> Off topic here, I guess...
> 
> Besides the banding problem, the color from the Epson inks is just 
so 
> much better than the Generations.  Really, the Generations prints 
> look to be about 20% desaturated versions of the Epson prints.
> 
> Back on topic....
> 
> I'm surprised at how good the black and white output is from the 
> R1800.  On mat paper, the balance is a bit cold.  On glossy, it 
seems 
> right on.
> A close look shows that the tonal transitions aren't what I would 
> like them to be, but I could show an 8x10 to a non-photographer and 
> they'd be thrilled.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" 
> <dfaprinting@> wrote:
> >
> > My comments from before still stand.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "sinar001" 
> > <jnolly@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Well, the "bargain priced inks" weren't such a bargain after 
all! 
> I
> > > sure would not put them back in! Look at all the time and 
effort 

> you
> > > have wasted thus far.
> > > 
> > > John Nollendorfs
> > > 
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve"
> > > <dazedgonebye@> wrote:
>

One, two, Freddy's coming for you.
Three, four, better lock your door.
Five, six, grab your crucifix.
Seven, eight, gonna stay up late.
Nine, ten, never sleep again….




So, they are blaming the problems on air bubbles... if you have a
syringe you can draw out a little ink from the cart and leave a drop
where the cart goes onto the printhead. That should eliminate the
question of bubbles (though it is odd that the problem goes away as
soon as you switch to Epson carts).

Along the way, two of the little caps on the carts fell off and in to 
my printer.  I had quite a time fishing them out.
I didn't reallize what had happened at first and all the yellow ink 
ran out of that cart.  Fortunately, they were in a plastic bag.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" 
<dfaprinting@...> wrote:
>
> One, two, Freddy's coming for you.
> Three, four, better lock your door.
> Five, six, grab your crucifix.
> Seven, eight, gonna stay up late.
> Nine, ten, never sleep again
.

> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, they are blaming the problems on air bubbles... if you have a
> syringe you can draw out a little ink from the cart and leave a drop
> where the cart goes onto the printhead. That should eliminate the
> question of bubbles (though it is odd that the problem goes away as
> soon as you switch to Epson carts).
>

OK, now I feel guilty-I've been running an 1800 with MIS inks for 
over a year, I should've put in my 2 cents worth, but you jumped on 
the Generations rather fast while I was distracted....so anyway, let 
me offer you some options.

First, if money is an issue, the MIS Pro inks are probably your best 
alternative. They do quite well in color, and on many RC papers 
bronze less than the Epsons. The saturation isn't as good as Epson, 
but not by a whopping 20%, more like five percent. Close enough 
thatyou can make up the difference with a custom profile and a little 
tweaking, or even just upping your sat a little. 

Do you want good B&W? I'll assume the answer is yes, or you wouldn't 
be on this forum. Your choices are:

A) Color Profiles. Get profiling software and hardware and make your 
own profiles, (the 'canned' ones will not be good enough) OR, have 
custom profiles made for each paper/ink/resolution setting you want 
to use. $500 the first way and quite a bit of learning, $40-60 per 
profile and a minimum of a week's delay the second way.

B)Download and figure out QTR. There are not many R1800 profiles 
supplied for this printer, but the 3 for matte paper will give you a 
starting point. From there you can build more BO profiles for your 
papers, which works well if the printer is not visibly banding.

If you print color on luster and semi-matte, and think you can live 
without glossy papers, you can put an Epson K3 LK or MIS K4 LK cart 
in the Gloss position (obviously you'll have to swap chips) and build 
your curves with two blacks for RC and 3 blacks for matte papers. The 
later approach uses MK properly, but adds the PK between MK and LK. 
This gives you smoother shadows, and distributes the use-pattern a 
bit better, saving you from having to refill the LK(gloss) as often.

The whole business of swapping LK for gloss works even better with 
MIS inks because they gloss a bit less, and therefore need the 
optimizer for fewer papers.

If you decide later you're willing to dedicate this printer to color, 
you can add more grays-I'm currently using the MIS K4 inks for MK, 
PK, LK and LLK and MIS pro in the remaining color positions. I'm 
getting results that are indisinguishable from my 3800 and ABW
without a 10x lupe.


If you do decide to go with QTR, contact me off-list later, and I'll 
see if I have any profiles appropriate for your ink configuration, 
and further suggestions.

Best,

Steve Karafyllakis

http://www.stevekphoto.com

DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" 
<dazedgonebye@...> wrote:
>
> Along the way, two of the little caps on the carts fell off and in 
to 
> my printer.  I had quite a time fishing them out.
> I didn't reallize what had happened at first and all the yellow ink 
> ran out of that cart.  Fortunately, they were in a plastic bag.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" 
> <dfaprinting@> wrote:
> >
> > One, two, Freddy's coming for you.
> > Three, four, better lock your door.
> > Five, six, grab your crucifix.
> > Seven, eight, gonna stay up late.
> > Nine, ten, never sleep again
.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > So, they are blaming the problems on air bubbles... if you have a
> > syringe you can draw out a little ink from the cart and leave a 
drop
> > where the cart goes onto the printhead. That should eliminate the
> > question of bubbles (though it is odd that the problem goes away 
as

> > soon as you switch to Epson carts).
> >
>

I jumped on the generations so quickly, because I did not want to 
calibarate my digital negative process to epson inks, then switch to 
aftermarket inks later (to save money) and have to rework my 
process.  Better, I thought, to start out with the less expensive 
inks from the start.
The lower saturation really would not have been a problem for my 
negatives, because whatever the saturation, I'd adjust the negatives 
based on my final results.  
I think I'm going to back off of the aftermarket inks for awhile.
My primary use of this printer is for digital negatives.  I need to 
get that working with the stock color inks and then I'll worry about 
a dedicated black and white system in the future.
Playing around like this has distracted me from my actual goals and 
I've accomplished nothing in their direction.

I think that in the end, the problem will be for me to find a good 
system for digital negatives that can also print quality black and 
white...so I don't have to go switching back and forth.

A second printer might be the best solution when the time comes.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven 
Karafyllakis" <stevekphoto@...> wrote:
>
> OK, now I feel guilty-I've been running an 1800 with MIS inks for 
> over a year, I should've put in my 2 cents worth, but you jumped on 
> the Generations rather fast while I was distracted....so anyway, 
let 
> me offer you some options.
> 
> First, if money is an issue, the MIS Pro inks are probably your 
best 
> alternative. They do quite well in color, and on many RC papers 
> bronze less than the Epsons. The saturation isn't as good as Epson, 
> but not by a whopping 20%, more like five percent. Close enough 
> thatyou can make up the difference with a custom profile and a 
little 
> tweaking, or even just upping your sat a little. 
> 
> Do you want good B&W? I'll assume the answer is yes, or you 
wouldn't 
> be on this forum. Your choices are:
> 
> A) Color Profiles. Get profiling software and hardware and make 
your 
> own profiles, (the 'canned' ones will not be good enough) OR, have 
> custom profiles made for each paper/ink/resolution setting you want 
> to use. $500 the first way and quite a bit of learning, $40-60 per 
> profile and a minimum of a week's delay the second way.
> 
> B)Download and figure out QTR. There are not many R1800 profiles 
> supplied for this printer, but the 3 for matte paper will give you 
a 
> starting point. From there you can build more BO profiles for your 
> papers, which works well if the printer is not visibly banding.
> 
> If you print color on luster and semi-matte, and think you can live 
> without glossy papers, you can put an Epson K3 LK or MIS K4 LK cart 
> in the Gloss position (obviously you'll have to swap chips) and 
build 
> your curves with two blacks for RC and 3 blacks for matte papers. 
The 
> later approach uses MK properly, but adds the PK between MK and LK. 
> This gives you smoother shadows, and distributes the use-pattern a 
> bit better, saving you from having to refill the LK(gloss) as often.
> 
> The whole business of swapping LK for gloss works even better with 
> MIS inks because they gloss a bit less, and therefore need the 
> optimizer for fewer papers.
> 
> If you decide later you're willing to dedicate this printer to 
color, 
> you can add more grays-I'm currently using the MIS K4 inks for MK, 
> PK, LK and LLK and MIS pro in the remaining color positions. I'm 
> getting results that are indisinguishable from my 3800 and ABW
> without a 10x lupe.
> 
> 
> If you do decide to go with QTR, contact me off-list later, and 
I'll 

> see if I have any profiles appropriate for your ink configuration, 
> and further suggestions.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Steve Karafyllakis
> 
> http://www.stevekphoto.com
> 
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve"

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" 
<dazedgonebye@...> wrote:
>
> I jumped on the generations so quickly, because I did not want to 
> calibarate my digital negative process to epson inks, then switch 
to 
> aftermarket inks later 

Sorry, I didn't mean my remark as a criticism, it's just that very 
few people on this list use the Generations inks, so we have no real 
help to offer.

>  I need to 
> get that working with the stock color inks and then I'll worry 
about 
> a dedicated black and white system in the future.

I don't know how much of this you've done so far, and what processes 
you use the negs for, but I feel I must comnplicate your life a bit 
more: many processes, if not all, are sensetive to the color of light 
you're exposing with. Ergo, if you make a neg with color inks, each 
set of dot colors will register differently on the paper. This can 
often produce a much 'grainier' print than you would expect looking 
at the negative. My take after repeatedly trying to produce silver-
gel quality negs, is that the best solution is to use QTR to mix two 
curves: one 3K curve composed of PK, LK, and LLK, and a second curve
composed of magenta, yellow and LLK, or magenta, red and yellow. The 
primary work would be done by the gray curve, with the color curve 
adding density or in the case of VC papers, contrast, where and when 
needed. But again, everything depends on your process and its 
spectral response.

At any rate, best of luck, and keep us posted on your progress. One 
of these days I'll take another whack at it myself, seeing as how I 
have a fair quantity of (free!) Sihl film I need to test.

Regards,

Steve Karafyllakis

I didn't take offense Steve, or even think you were being critical.
I tend to jump big when I go, and I don't always look first.

I make digital negatives for cyanotypes...so I think I'm a bit 
covered by the limited capabilities of that process.  I may move on 
to do van dykes in the future, but I don't have any plans for the 
higher end processes.  
I actually like the very basic alternative processes.  I find it a 
nice contrast to the "perfection" of silver/platinum etc...  Which is 
just as well since I don't think I have the attention to detail to 
really excel at those more demanding processes.

Link to one of my cyanotypes...  
http://www.flickr.com/photos/stevemphoto/347434952/in/set-
72157594360326487/

Thanks for your input and willingness to help.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven 
Karafyllakis" <stevekphoto@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" 
> <dazedgonebye@> wrote:
> >
> > I jumped on the generations so quickly, because I did not want to 
> > calibarate my digital negative process to epson inks, then switch 
> to 
> > aftermarket inks later 
> 
> Sorry, I didn't mean my remark as a criticism, it's just that very 
> few people on this list use the Generations inks, so we have no 
real 
> help to offer.
> 
> >  I need to 
> > get that working with the stock color inks and then I'll worry 
> about 
> > a dedicated black and white system in the future.
> 
> I don't know how much of this you've done so far, and what 
processes 
> you use the negs for, but I feel I must comnplicate your life a bit 
> more: many processes, if not all, are sensetive to the color of 
light 
> you're exposing with. Ergo, if you make a neg with color inks, each 
> set of dot colors will register differently on the paper. This can 
> often produce a much 'grainier' print than you would expect looking 
> at the negative. My take after repeatedly trying to produce silver-
> gel quality negs, is that the best solution is to use QTR to mix 
two 
> curves: one 3K curve composed of PK, LK, and LLK, and a second curve
> composed of magenta, yellow and LLK, or magenta, red and yellow. 
The 
> primary work would be done by the gray curve, with the color curve 
> adding density or in the case of VC papers, contrast, where and 
when 

> needed. But again, everything depends on your process and its 
> spectral response.
> 
> At any rate, best of luck, and keep us posted on your progress. One 
> of these days I'll take another whack at it myself, seeing as how I 
> have a fair quantity of (free!) Sihl film I need to test.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Steve Karafyllakis
>