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Thread
2007-04-30 by Paul Roark
If a grayscale image or an image file with R=G=B is fed into an R800, is any of the Red or Blue used to generate the print? I assume the C, M and Y are used, but I'm just not sure about the extra colors. Thanks, Paul www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2007-04-30 by CDTobie@aol.com
>>If a grayscale image or an image file with R=G=B is fed into an R800, is any of the Red or Blue used to generate the print? The R800 creates all its grays (except for the very darkest of them, which incorporate black) from color inks, since it has no gray inks. As best I can determine it integrates only the Blue into its base generations scheme, while holding the red out for saturated reds only. So printing only neutral images should use up CMYB and K inks, but no Red, except for that used in cleaning. Or course they would be poor grayscale prints, in terms of consistant neutrality under differing light sources... C. David Tobie Product Technology Manager ColorVision, Inc. CDTobie@... www.colorvision.com ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.
2007-05-01 by Keith Zimmerman
From my experience printing, or rather, attempting to print BW with an R800, I believe the red and blue inks are used. At least that is what I suspicion happens. I never made any color prints on the printer and the red and blue carts ran out of ink just as fast as the others. I don't think it was just cleaning cycles that used all the red and blue because I always had my printer powered on except when I was traveling. FWIW, I never got a single decent BW print from the printer so I sold it to someone that prints only color. He loves it. keithz --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote: > > If a grayscale image or an image file with R=G=B is fed into an R800, is any > of the Red or Blue used to generate the print? > > > > I assume the C, M and Y are used, but I'm just not sure about the extra
> colors. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Paul > > www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >
2007-05-06 by Jean Claude Parent
hello,
I'm owner of an R1800 (same driver etc as R800) and with specific's curves made wirg QTR I finally succed by having quite good (at least for me ;-) ) BW prints WITHOUT any other colors
I Check it under big magnification with binocular on the neutral curves I did . of course with the warm curves or sepia I added very few yellow or red...
the R1800 /R800 have B&W abilities only with QTR , I never succed before using this RIP to get real B&W prints - it was allaways some "greenish" or other colors on certain grays (green closed to 40% and magenta around 70% gray scale)
Check on the files and try the curves !!!
BTW please give me your comments,
bye from France
Keith Zimmerman <keithz@kzarts.com> a écrit :
From my experience printing, or rather, attempting to print BW with
an R800, I believe the red and blue inks are used. At least that is
what I suspicion happens. I never made any color prints on the
printer and the red and blue carts ran out of ink just as fast as
the others. I don't think it was just cleaning cycles that used all
the red and blue because I always had my printer powered on except
when I was traveling.
FWIW, I never got a single decent BW print from the printer so I
sold it to someone that prints only color. He loves it.
keithz
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> If a grayscale image or an image file with R=G=B is fed into an
R800, is any
> of the Red or Blue used to generate the print?
>
>
>
> I assume the C, M and Y are used, but I'm just not sure about the
extra
> colors.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Paul
>
> www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
BTW Have nice prints with QTR
don't forget "Life is just what we are looking for..."
R1800 mostly in B&W (80%)
Lyson Inks R8
Moab papers
JCP
---------------------------------
Découvrez une nouvelle façon d'obtenir des réponses à toutes vos questions ! Profitez des connaissances, des opinions et des expériences des internautes sur Yahoo! Questions/Réponses.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2007-05-07 by jfree2hear
Can you point where are the files and curves? I couldn't find them... --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jean Claude Parent <jcpeos@...> wrote: > > hello, > I'm owner of an R1800 (same driver etc as R800) and with specific's curves made wirg QTR I finally succed by having quite good (at least for me ;-) ) BW prints WITHOUT any other colors > > I Check it under big magnification with binocular on the neutral curves I did . of course with the warm curves or sepia I added very few yellow or red... > > the R1800 /R800 have B&W abilities only with QTR , I never succed before using this RIP to get real B&W prints - it was allaways some "greenish" or other colors on certain grays (green closed to 40% and magenta around 70% gray scale) > > Check on the files and try the curves !!! > BTW please give me your comments, > bye from France > > > > > > > Keith Zimmerman <keithz@...> a écrit : > From my experience printing, or rather, attempting to print BW with > an R800, I believe the red and blue inks are used. At least that is > what I suspicion happens. I never made any color prints on the > printer and the red and blue carts ran out of ink just as fast as > the others. I don't think it was just cleaning cycles that used all > the red and blue because I always had my printer powered on except > when I was traveling. > > FWIW, I never got a single decent BW print from the printer so I > sold it to someone that prints only color. He loves it. > > keithz > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" > <paul.roark@> wrote: > > > > If a grayscale image or an image file with R=G=B is fed into an > R800, is any > > of the Red or Blue used to generate the print? > > > > > > > > I assume the C, M and Y are used, but I'm just not sure about the > extra > > colors. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/> > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > BTW Have nice prints with QTR > don't forget "Life is just what we are looking for..." > > R1800 mostly in B&W (80%) > Lyson Inks R8 > Moab papers > > JCP > > --------------------------------- > Découvrez une nouvelle façon d'obtenir des réponses à toutes vos questions ! Profitez des connaissances, des opinions et des expériences des internautes sur Yahoo! Questions/Réponses.
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >
2007-05-07 by Paul Roark
Since there are several others experimenting with similar approaches, I
thought it appropriate to share some initial results I'm having with the
R800-1800. Although the first R800 refurb I purchased was defective, I saw
encouraging enough results to buy an R1800 (which just showed up while
writing this).
The bottom line for me is that "pure, 100% carbon" (plus base, etc., of
course), "neutral" (essentially paper white to relatively neutral black)
printing at what I consider photo quality may finally be possible. I'm
using multiple MIS Eboni jets and the Epson driver.
For the approximate spectral Lab A & B distributions of Eboni, see:
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-PA-325-BO.jpg for Premier Art Smooth
(Hot Press) 325 (no OBAs), and
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-PA-MBW-BO.jpg for the very affordable
and bright Premier Art Matte BW.
For a comparison of the 5% patch of an Epson k3 Advanced B&W mode print to a
similar density patch printed with 5 Eboni jets firing in an R800, see:
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/800-5-Eboni-v-2400-ABW-1600dpi.jpg
(The defective R800 may not have been firing all 5 jets.)
Whereas "Black Only" printing with the 3.5 picoliter printers was sometimes
referred to as "Digital Tri-X," the R800/1800 might be referred to as
digital Tmax 100. The link below is to a rather crude "apples v. oranges"
comparison of (1) a light midtone test patch of a Tmax 100 negative scanned
at 4000 dpi with my Nikon 8000 to (2) an R800 print, similar density test
patch scanned on an Epson 1600 flatbed at 1600. The Epson scan was then
downsized so that it would at least mathematically be at the same
magnification as the medium format Tmax 100 scan if such had been enlarged
to an 8 x 10 print. The image you'll be looking at would be 1.2 x 1.7 mm on
an 8x10. (The Tmax patch arguably needs to be sharpened to bit.)
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Tmax-R800-8x10.jpg
Note that I am not doing "Black Only" printing in the sense that it's been
used previously. I have multiple Eboni carts in the midtone spots. This is
definitely a dedicated B&W approach, not something someone would do to also
be able to print color with the printer. Most single-jet BO prints have
simply been too rough for my tastes. I'm aiming to match the quality of my
medium format Tmax 100 prints.
The workflow tentatively would be to simply print a grayscale file with the
Epson drive, using an ICC in the print preview.
To make the ICC, a 21-step test file is first used to determine the best
dmax. Then a curve from (0, 0) to (100, [best dmax point]) is made. I'll
probably have a 50% point pulled down to get approximately the right density
distribution. A second test strip is printed with this Photoshop curve. It
has its Lab L values read for purposes of linearization. Then the curve and
the text file with the L or density values are dropped into Create ICC-RGB
to make the ICC.
The bottom line is that the Epson driver would be used, and the system would
be able to be linearized even with a flatbed scanner.
The idea is to achieve pure carbon printing, with no color inks to cause
green shifts, etc. There are no cross-overs or partitioning to worry about.
The monitor and print will be matched via Create ICC.
There are obviously many modifications one could do to this approach. LK
could be used to warm up prints or smooth the highlights on brightened
paper. I have not explored whether there is a neutral PK that might also be
incorporated. Eboni's neutrality is obviously key to this approach being
acceptable to me. Dilute carbon inks are too warm for me.
My hopes are that this will make the most lightfast digital prints possible
in a manner that is so simple old darkroom types will be able to relate to
it without ever having to learn anything about how partition curves, control
the tones of prints, or much else.
This is not going to be for everyone. The prints do show a very fine grain.
But then those of us who've worked with film don't mind that, in fact, it
can lend a sense of sharpness to an image. But, as noted above, Tmax 100 in
medium format was my standard for years. I aim to match that quality level,
at least.
As a side benefit, consider what this does to your ink costs. You don't
need much Eboni to make prints. It's the diluted inks that drive up the
costs. Light inks are expensive water. Then there is the simplicity of
filling multiple carts with the same bottle of Eboni and single syringe.
("UC base" [no binder] may be in the other spots to help keep the sponges
and heads clean.)
This is still in a development stage. So, my results are tentative, and I
definitely reserve the right to change my opinion and dump this approach.
However, right now, I'm very excited by the prospects of a simple, neutral,
pure carbon, photo quality printing approach. I think it will be something
old darkroom printers can live with very nicely. (I wish there were a 24
inch printer with 1.5 pl dots.)
Paul
www.PaulRoark.com2007-05-08 by Paul Roark
In the new 1800 (also a defective machine, but better than the refurbished 800), I'm getting slightly warmer results than in the 3.5 pl printers. The Premier Art Matte BW and Smooth 325 are hitting a peak warmth at about 70% of almost Lab B 2 and 2.4, respectively. Paul www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/> _____
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul
Roark
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 3:04 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] R800-1800 pure carbon printing
Since there are several others experimenting with similar approaches, I
thought it appropriate to share some initial results I'm having with the
R800-1800. Although the first R800 refurb I purchased was defective, I saw
encouraging enough results to buy an R1800 (which just showed up while
writing this).
The bottom line for me is that "pure, 100% carbon" (plus base, etc., of
course), "neutral" (essentially paper white to relatively neutral black)
printing at what I consider photo quality may finally be possible. I'm
using multiple MIS Eboni jets and the Epson driver.
For the approximate spectral Lab A & B distributions of Eboni, see:
http://www.paulroar <http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-PA-325-BO.jpg>
k.com/BW-Info/Eboni-PA-325-BO.jpg for Premier Art Smooth
(Hot Press) 325 (no OBAs), and
http://www.paulroar <http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-PA-MBW-BO.jpg>
k.com/BW-Info/Eboni-PA-MBW-BO.jpg for the very affordable
and bright Premier Art Matte BW.
For a comparison of the 5% patch of an Epson k3 Advanced B&W mode print to a
similar density patch printed with 5 Eboni jets firing in an R800, see:
http://www.paulroar
<http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/800-5-Eboni-v-2400-ABW-1600dpi.jpg>
k.com/BW-Info/800-5-Eboni-v-2400-ABW-1600dpi.jpg
(The defective R800 may not have been firing all 5 jets.)
Whereas "Black Only" printing with the 3.5 picoliter printers was sometimes
referred to as "Digital Tri-X," the R800/1800 might be referred to as
digital Tmax 100. The link below is to a rather crude "apples v. oranges"
comparison of (1) a light midtone test patch of a Tmax 100 negative scanned
at 4000 dpi with my Nikon 8000 to (2) an R800 print, similar density test
patch scanned on an Epson 1600 flatbed at 1600. The Epson scan was then
downsized so that it would at least mathematically be at the same
magnification as the medium format Tmax 100 scan if such had been enlarged
to an 8 x 10 print. The image you'll be looking at would be 1.2 x 1.7 mm on
an 8x10. (The Tmax patch arguably needs to be sharpened to bit.)
http://www.paulroar <http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Tmax-R800-8x10.jpg>
k.com/BW-Info/Tmax-R800-8x10.jpg
Note that I am not doing "Black Only" printing in the sense that it's been
used previously. I have multiple Eboni carts in the midtone spots. This is
definitely a dedicated B&W approach, not something someone would do to also
be able to print color with the printer. Most single-jet BO prints have
simply been too rough for my tastes. I'm aiming to match the quality of my
medium format Tmax 100 prints.
The workflow tentatively would be to simply print a grayscale file with the
Epson drive, using an ICC in the print preview.
To make the ICC, a 21-step test file is first used to determine the best
dmax. Then a curve from (0, 0) to (100, [best dmax point]) is made. I'll
probably have a 50% point pulled down to get approximately the right density
distribution. A second test strip is printed with this Photoshop curve. It
has its Lab L values read for purposes of linearization. Then the curve and
the text file with the L or density values are dropped into Create ICC-RGB
to make the ICC.
The bottom line is that the Epson driver would be used, and the system would
be able to be linearized even with a flatbed scanner.
The idea is to achieve pure carbon printing, with no color inks to cause
green shifts, etc. There are no cross-overs or partitioning to worry about.
The monitor and print will be matched via Create ICC.
There are obviously many modifications one could do to this approach. LK
could be used to warm up prints or smooth the highlights on brightened
paper. I have not explored whether there is a neutral PK that might also be
incorporated. Eboni's neutrality is obviously key to this approach being
acceptable to me. Dilute carbon inks are too warm for me.
My hopes are that this will make the most lightfast digital prints possible
in a manner that is so simple old darkroom types will be able to relate to
it without ever having to learn anything about how partition curves, control
the tones of prints, or much else.
This is not going to be for everyone. The prints do show a very fine grain.
But then those of us who've worked with film don't mind that, in fact, it
can lend a sense of sharpness to an image. But, as noted above, Tmax 100 in
medium format was my standard for years. I aim to match that quality level,
at least.
As a side benefit, consider what this does to your ink costs. You don't
need much Eboni to make prints. It's the diluted inks that drive up the
costs. Light inks are expensive water. Then there is the simplicity of
filling multiple carts with the same bottle of Eboni and single syringe.
("UC base" [no binder] may be in the other spots to help keep the sponges
and heads clean.)
This is still in a development stage. So, my results are tentative, and I
definitely reserve the right to change my opinion and dump this approach.
However, right now, I'm very excited by the prospects of a simple, neutral,
pure carbon, photo quality printing approach. I think it will be something
old darkroom printers can live with very nicely. (I wish there were a 24
inch printer with 1.5 pl dots.)
Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2007-05-08 by Carl Schofield
Paul, Sounds like a promising approach. Did you try this with any of the 3.5 pl printers and is there any improvement relative to single channel BO printing or do we need the smaller 1.5 pl dot size for the highlight/midtones to minimize "grain"? Also, do the "1.5 pl" printers only use the smallest dot size in the highlights (assuming they use some kind of variable dot size approach) or is this controlled by driver resolution settings? Carl
On May 8, 2007, at 11:39 AM, Paul Roark wrote:
> In the new 1800 (also a defective machine, but better than the
> refurbished
> 800), I'm getting slightly warmer results than in the 3.5 pl
> printers. The
> Premier Art Matte BW and Smooth 325 are hitting a peak warmth at
> about 70%
> of almost Lab B 2 and 2.4, respectively.
>
>
>
> Paul
>
> www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> Paul
> Roark
> Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 3:04 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] R800-1800 pure carbon printing
>
>
>
> Since there are several others experimenting with similar
> approaches, I
> thought it appropriate to share some initial results I'm having
> with the
> R800-1800. Although the first R800 refurb I purchased was
> defective, I saw
> encouraging enough results to buy an R1800 (which just showed up while
> writing this).
>
> The bottom line for me is that "pure, 100% carbon" (plus base,
> etc., of
> course), "neutral" (essentially paper white to relatively neutral
> black)
> printing at what I consider photo quality may finally be possible. I'm
> using multiple MIS Eboni jets and the Epson driver.
>
> For the approximate spectral Lab A & B distributions of Eboni, see:
>
> http://www.paulroar <http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-PA-325-
> BO.jpg>
> k.com/BW-Info/Eboni-PA-325-BO.jpg for Premier Art Smooth
> (Hot Press) 325 (no OBAs), and
>
> http://www.paulroar <http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-PA-MBW-
> BO.jpg>
> k.com/BW-Info/Eboni-PA-MBW-BO.jpg for the very affordable
> and bright Premier Art Matte BW.
>
> For a comparison of the 5% patch of an Epson k3 Advanced B&W mode
> print to a
> similar density patch printed with 5 Eboni jets firing in an R800,
> see:
>
> http://www.paulroar
> <http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/800-5-Eboni-v-2400-ABW-1600dpi.jpg>
> k.com/BW-Info/800-5-Eboni-v-2400-ABW-1600dpi.jpg
>
> (The defective R800 may not have been firing all 5 jets.)
>
> Whereas "Black Only" printing with the 3.5 picoliter printers was
> sometimes
> referred to as "Digital Tri-X," the R800/1800 might be referred to as
> digital Tmax 100. The link below is to a rather crude "apples v.
> oranges"
> comparison of (1) a light midtone test patch of a Tmax 100 negative
> scanned
> at 4000 dpi with my Nikon 8000 to (2) an R800 print, similar
> density test
> patch scanned on an Epson 1600 flatbed at 1600. The Epson scan was
> then
> downsized so that it would at least mathematically be at the same
> magnification as the medium format Tmax 100 scan if such had been
> enlarged
> to an 8 x 10 print. The image you'll be looking at would be 1.2 x
> 1.7 mm on
> an 8x10. (The Tmax patch arguably needs to be sharpened to bit.)
>
> http://www.paulroar <http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Tmax-
> R800-8x10.jpg>
> k.com/BW-Info/Tmax-R800-8x10.jpg
>
> Note that I am not doing "Black Only" printing in the sense that
> it's been
> used previously. I have multiple Eboni carts in the midtone spots.
> This is
> definitely a dedicated B&W approach, not something someone would do
> to also
> be able to print color with the printer. Most single-jet BO prints
> have
> simply been too rough for my tastes. I'm aiming to match the
> quality of my
> medium format Tmax 100 prints.
>
> The workflow tentatively would be to simply print a grayscale file
> with the
> Epson drive, using an ICC in the print preview.
>
> To make the ICC, a 21-step test file is first used to determine the
> best
> dmax. Then a curve from (0, 0) to (100, [best dmax point]) is made.
> I'll
> probably have a 50% point pulled down to get approximately the
> right density
> distribution. A second test strip is printed with this Photoshop
> curve. It
> has its Lab L values read for purposes of linearization. Then the
> curve and
> the text file with the L or density values are dropped into Create
> ICC-RGB
> to make the ICC.
>
> The bottom line is that the Epson driver would be used, and the
> system would
> be able to be linearized even with a flatbed scanner.
>
> The idea is to achieve pure carbon printing, with no color inks to
> cause
> green shifts, etc. There are no cross-overs or partitioning to
> worry about.
> The monitor and print will be matched via Create ICC.
>
> There are obviously many modifications one could do to this
> approach. LK
> could be used to warm up prints or smooth the highlights on brightened
> paper. I have not explored whether there is a neutral PK that might
> also be
> incorporated. Eboni's neutrality is obviously key to this approach
> being
> acceptable to me. Dilute carbon inks are too warm for me.
>
> My hopes are that this will make the most lightfast digital prints
> possible
> in a manner that is so simple old darkroom types will be able to
> relate to
> it without ever having to learn anything about how partition
> curves, control
> the tones of prints, or much else.
>
> This is not going to be for everyone. The prints do show a very
> fine grain.
> But then those of us who've worked with film don't mind that, in
> fact, it
> can lend a sense of sharpness to an image. But, as noted above,
> Tmax 100 in
> medium format was my standard for years. I aim to match that
> quality level,
> at least.
>
> As a side benefit, consider what this does to your ink costs. You
> don't
> need much Eboni to make prints. It's the diluted inks that drive up
> the
> costs. Light inks are expensive water. Then there is the simplicity of
> filling multiple carts with the same bottle of Eboni and single
> syringe.
> ("UC base" [no binder] may be in the other spots to help keep the
> sponges
> and heads clean.)
>
> This is still in a development stage. So, my results are tentative,
> and I
> definitely reserve the right to change my opinion and dump this
> approach.
> However, right now, I'm very excited by the prospects of a simple,
> neutral,
> pure carbon, photo quality printing approach. I think it will be
> something
> old darkroom printers can live with very nicely. (I wish there were
> a 24
> inch printer with 1.5 pl dots.)
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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>
>2007-05-08 by Paul Roark
Hi Carl, > Sounds like a promising approach. I really like the idea of no color pigments, and the tones I'm getting on Premier Art 325 (no OBAs) is just a bit warm, but looks fine to me. I'm now printing with QTR and 3 jets. It may be enough to reduce the typical one-jet banding sufficiently. If so, it would allow the 1800 to be a full Epson driver color printer as well as a pure carbon QTR printer if only matte paper was used. > Did you try this with any of the 3.5 pl printers Not yet. The single channel 3.5 pl BO is a bit rough, but it is worth a try on one of them also. > ... do the "1.5 pl" printers only use the smallest dot size > in the highlights (assuming they use some kind of variable > dot size approach) or is this > controlled by driver resolution settings? I'm not sure. I've been using the highest resolution so far, assuming that is going to be needed. The 1800 is fast enough that the high resolution settings are fine. With QTR (and maybe even with the Epson driver) it may be that staggering the curves is needed to control some artifacts. The Gimp ordered dither is not particularly good with this setup when all are on the same curve. Once the curves are varied, the "ordered" nature of the pattern is more scattered. The highlights still seem a bit too ordered, but I'm not sure anyone can see that without a loupe. It's still early in this experimenting, and unfortunately, I'm at a disadvantage due to these defective refurbs. The C,M & Y jets are working on this one, so I'm a bit more able to see what a good printer will look like. Paul www.PaulRoark.com
2007-05-08 by Carl Schofield
Paul, The Epson 4000 driver dither is already quite good with just single channel BO so it might be a good candidate for multiple Eboni channels. Does the GRAY_OVERLAP function in QTR help at all with smoothing out the banding artifacts in the 1800? Carl
On May 8, 2007, at 3:05 PM, Paul Roark wrote: > Hi Carl, > >> Sounds like a promising approach. > > I really like the idea of no color pigments, and the tones I'm > getting on > Premier Art 325 (no OBAs) is just a bit warm, but looks fine to me. > > I'm now printing with QTR and 3 jets. It may be enough to reduce the > typical one-jet banding sufficiently. If so, it would allow the > 1800 to be > a full Epson driver color printer as well as a pure carbon QTR > printer if > only matte paper was used. > >> Did you try this with any of the 3.5 pl printers > > Not yet. The single channel 3.5 pl BO is a bit rough, but it is > worth a try > on one of them also. > >> ... do the "1.5 pl" printers only use the smallest dot size >> in the highlights (assuming they use some kind of variable >> dot size approach) or is this >> controlled by driver resolution settings? > > I'm not sure. I've been using the highest resolution so far, > assuming that > is going to be needed. The 1800 is fast enough that the high > resolution > settings are fine. > > With QTR (and maybe even with the Epson driver) it may be that > staggering > the curves is needed to control some artifacts. The Gimp ordered > dither is > not particularly good with this setup when all are on the same > curve. Once > the curves are varied, the "ordered" nature of the pattern is more > scattered. The highlights still seem a bit too ordered, but I'm > not sure > anyone can see that without a loupe. > > It's still early in this experimenting, and unfortunately, I'm at a > disadvantage due to these defective refurbs. The C,M & Y jets are > working > on this one, so I'm a bit more able to see what a good printer will > look > like. > > Paul > www.PaulRoark.com
2007-05-09 by Jean Claude Parent
here is the link to the files:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/QuadtoneRIP/files/Curves/R800%20and%20R1800/
have fun
bye
jfree2hear <joaoh2@...> a écrit :
Can you point where are the files and curves? I couldn't find them...
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jean Claude
Parent <jcpeos@...> wrote:
>
> hello,
> I'm owner of an R1800 (same driver etc as R800) and with
specific's curves made wirg QTR I finally succed by having quite good
(at least for me ;-) ) BW prints WITHOUT any other colors
>
> I Check it under big magnification with binocular on the neutral
curves I did . of course with the warm curves or sepia I added very
few yellow or red...
>
> the R1800 /R800 have B&W abilities only with QTR , I never succed
before using this RIP to get real B&W prints - it was allaways some
"greenish" or other colors on certain grays (green closed to 40% and
magenta around 70% gray scale)
>
> Check on the files and try the curves !!!
> BTW please give me your comments,
> bye from France
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Keith Zimmerman <keithz@...> a écrit :
> From my experience printing, or rather, attempting to
print BW with
> an R800, I believe the red and blue inks are used. At least that is
> what I suspicion happens. I never made any color prints on the
> printer and the red and blue carts ran out of ink just as fast as
> the others. I don't think it was just cleaning cycles that used all
> the red and blue because I always had my printer powered on except
> when I was traveling.
>
> FWIW, I never got a single decent BW print from the printer so I
> sold it to someone that prints only color. He loves it.
>
> keithz
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@> wrote:
> >
> > If a grayscale image or an image file with R=G=B is fed into an
> R800, is any
> > of the Red or Blue used to generate the print?
> >
> >
> >
> > I assume the C, M and Y are used, but I'm just not sure about the
> extra
> > colors.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> >
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> BTW Have nice prints with QTR
> don't forget "Life is just what we are looking for..."
>
> R1800 mostly in B&W (80%)
> Lyson Inks R8
> Moab papers
>
> JCP
>
> ---------------------------------
> Découvrez une nouvelle façon d'obtenir des réponses à toutes vos
questions ! Profitez des connaissances, des opinions et des
expériences des internautes sur Yahoo! Questions/Réponses.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
BTW Have nice prints with QTR
don't forget "Life is just what we are looking for..."
R1800 mostly in B&W (80%)
Lyson Inks R8
Moab papers
JCP
---------------------------------
Découvrez une nouvelle façon d'obtenir des réponses à toutes vos questions ! Profitez des connaissances, des opinions et des expériences des internautes sur Yahoo! Questions/Réponses.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2007-05-09 by Carl Schofield
Paul, Sounds very encouraging. If I can get some empty carts I will do some experimenting with my wife's R380 printer if Roy has this one on his list. I use MIS PK in my 4000 and 2400 and it is very warm as a BO print. PKN give a neutral/cool BO print. Carl
On May 9, 2007, at 12:15 PM, Paul Roark wrote: > Hi Carl, > >> The Epson 4000 driver dither is already quite good >> with just single channel BO so it might be a good >> candidate for multiple Eboni channels. > > I've been testing my 2200 with multiple Eboni ink channels as well > as the > 1800. In general, the multiple channels can greatly reduce or > virtually > eliminate microbanding, but it does not smooth out the grainy 2200 > midtones. > So, the graininess you see with BO is probably what you'll get with > multiple > Eboni channels. The larger dots to print slightly more neutral, > which I'd > say is an advantage. However, the 1800 Eboni prints on non-brightened > Premier Art Smooth (Hot Press) 325 are definitely a tone I can live > with -- > just slightly warm. > > The very light tones are actually better with a single channel > firing. I'm > getting close to "perfect" 1800 images (with a barely visible fine > grain > structure) by having a single jet fire to 25%, another one start > there, > another at 50%, and another at 75%. > > How many channels are optimum is still an open question. From what > I've > seen 3 may be a bit too little, and more than 4 may not result in any > visible improvement. Whether the extra 1800 channels are useful is > an open > question. So far I'd say that as soon as Roy gets the new 260 and > 1400 > going, they'll make good candidates for this approach. > > Have you done a BO print with Epson PK? I'm wondering how neutral > it is. > > I'm using QTR for this, with curves simply entered in the point > lists. The > channels are not partitioned, since they are all the same density. > The inks > never go into a negative slope. Right now most curves are essentially > straight lines, with the caveat that I make the starting points of > all but > the first one more gradual than a straight line would be. The last > curve, > which carries much or the black, has a highly increasing slope. I'll > probably come up with a more or less overall slope and then figure > out how > to make the system more simple and equalize ink usage somewhat. > Right now I > have not figured the areas under the curves. > > I'll be sending this defective 1800 back soon, but, again, I think > for those > interested in a pure carbon print that will not suffer from the > inevitable > differential fade of the magenta & cyan color pigments, it > tentatively looks > like a viable solution for up to 13 x 19. > > Paul > www.PaulRoark.com
2007-05-09 by Paul Roark
Hi Carl, >The Epson 4000 driver dither is already quite good >with just single channel BO so it might be a good >candidate for multiple Eboni channels. I've been testing my 2200 with multiple Eboni ink channels as well as the 1800. In general, the multiple channels can greatly reduce or virtually eliminate microbanding, but it does not smooth out the grainy 2200 midtones. So, the graininess you see with BO is probably what you'll get with multiple Eboni channels. The larger dots to print slightly more neutral, which I'd say is an advantage. However, the 1800 Eboni prints on non-brightened Premier Art Smooth (Hot Press) 325 are definitely a tone I can live with -- just slightly warm. The very light tones are actually better with a single channel firing. I'm getting close to "perfect" 1800 images (with a barely visible fine grain structure) by having a single jet fire to 25%, another one start there, another at 50%, and another at 75%. How many channels are optimum is still an open question. From what I've seen 3 may be a bit too little, and more than 4 may not result in any visible improvement. Whether the extra 1800 channels are useful is an open question. So far I'd say that as soon as Roy gets the new 260 and 1400 going, they'll make good candidates for this approach. Have you done a BO print with Epson PK? I'm wondering how neutral it is. I'm using QTR for this, with curves simply entered in the point lists. The channels are not partitioned, since they are all the same density. The inks never go into a negative slope. Right now most curves are essentially straight lines, with the caveat that I make the starting points of all but the first one more gradual than a straight line would be. The last curve, which carries much or the black, has a highly increasing slope. I'll probably come up with a more or less overall slope and then figure out how to make the system more simple and equalize ink usage somewhat. Right now I have not figured the areas under the curves. I'll be sending this defective 1800 back soon, but, again, I think for those interested in a pure carbon print that will not suffer from the inevitable differential fade of the magenta & cyan color pigments, it tentatively looks like a viable solution for up to 13 x 19. Paul www.PaulRoark.com
2007-05-09 by Paul Roark
PKN is also loaded with C & M, which defeats most of what I'm after. For snaps and postcards, however, it may be a way to utilize the extra jets. Paul www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/> _____
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl Schofield Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 7:25 AM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Digital BW] R800-1800 pure carbon printing Paul, Sounds very encouraging. If I can get some empty carts I will do some experimenting with my wife's R380 printer if Roy has this one on his list. I use MIS PK in my 4000 and 2400 and it is very warm as a BO print. PKN give a neutral/cool BO print. Carl On May 9, 2007, at 12:15 PM, Paul Roark wrote: > Hi Carl, > >> The Epson 4000 driver dither is already quite good >> with just single channel BO so it might be a good >> candidate for multiple Eboni channels. > > I've been testing my 2200 with multiple Eboni ink channels as well > as the > 1800. In general, the multiple channels can greatly reduce or > virtually > eliminate microbanding, but it does not smooth out the grainy 2200 > midtones. > So, the graininess you see with BO is probably what you'll get with > multiple > Eboni channels. The larger dots to print slightly more neutral, > which I'd > say is an advantage. However, the 1800 Eboni prints on non-brightened > Premier Art Smooth (Hot Press) 325 are definitely a tone I can live > with -- > just slightly warm. > > The very light tones are actually better with a single channel > firing. I'm > getting close to "perfect" 1800 images (with a barely visible fine > grain > structure) by having a single jet fire to 25%, another one start > there, > another at 50%, and another at 75%. > > How many channels are optimum is still an open question. From what > I've > seen 3 may be a bit too little, and more than 4 may not result in any > visible improvement. Whether the extra 1800 channels are useful is > an open > question. So far I'd say that as soon as Roy gets the new 260 and > 1400 > going, they'll make good candidates for this approach. > > Have you done a BO print with Epson PK? I'm wondering how neutral > it is. > > I'm using QTR for this, with curves simply entered in the point > lists. The > channels are not partitioned, since they are all the same density. > The inks > never go into a negative slope. Right now most curves are essentially > straight lines, with the caveat that I make the starting points of > all but > the first one more gradual than a straight line would be. The last > curve, > which carries much or the black, has a highly increasing slope. I'll > probably come up with a more or less overall slope and then figure > out how > to make the system more simple and equalize ink usage somewhat. > Right now I > have not figured the areas under the curves. > > I'll be sending this defective 1800 back soon, but, again, I think > for those > interested in a pure carbon print that will not suffer from the > inevitable > differential fade of the magenta & cyan color pigments, it > tentatively looks > like a viable solution for up to 13 x 19. > > Paul > www.PaulRoark.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2007-05-09 by Jean Claude Parent
Paul and Carl,
I am following your test & trials... very exiting !!!
Do you believe You'll succeed by keeping the color printing of the R1800 and giving us the way to print good B&W?
Are you testing with the PK and BK and with the Gloss head ? why not...? meaning three blacks... QTR is right for that...
Does the Gloss head have the same dot size? If yes, I could live without any Gloss on my Color prints... it's possible to print on "Pearl" paper type without any gloss...
thks for your efforts and good luck, I am waiting and confident...
BTW a shake hand from Paris
Paul Roark <paul.roark@...> a écrit :
PKN is also loaded with C & M, which defeats most of what I'm after. For
snaps and postcards, however, it may be a way to utilize the extra jets.
Paul
www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>
_____ From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Carl
Schofield
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 7:25 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] R800-1800 pure carbon printing
Paul,
Sounds very encouraging. If I can get some empty carts I will do
some experimenting with my wife's R380 printer if Roy has this one on
his list. I use MIS PK in my 4000 and 2400 and it is very warm as a
BO print. PKN give a neutral/cool BO print.
Carl
On May 9, 2007, at 12:15 PM, Paul Roark wrote:
> Hi Carl,
>
>> The Epson 4000 driver dither is already quite good
>> with just single channel BO so it might be a good
>> candidate for multiple Eboni channels.
>
> I've been testing my 2200 with multiple Eboni ink channels as well
> as the
> 1800. In general, the multiple channels can greatly reduce or
> virtually
> eliminate microbanding, but it does not smooth out the grainy 2200
> midtones.
> So, the graininess you see with BO is probably what you'll get with
> multiple
> Eboni channels. The larger dots to print slightly more neutral,
> which I'd
> say is an advantage. However, the 1800 Eboni prints on non-brightened
> Premier Art Smooth (Hot Press) 325 are definitely a tone I can live
> with --
> just slightly warm.
>
> The very light tones are actually better with a single channel
> firing. I'm
> getting close to "perfect" 1800 images (with a barely visible fine
> grain
> structure) by having a single jet fire to 25%, another one start
> there,
> another at 50%, and another at 75%.
>
> How many channels are optimum is still an open question. From what
> I've
> seen 3 may be a bit too little, and more than 4 may not result in any
> visible improvement. Whether the extra 1800 channels are useful is
> an open
> question. So far I'd say that as soon as Roy gets the new 260 and
> 1400
> going, they'll make good candidates for this approach.
>
> Have you done a BO print with Epson PK? I'm wondering how neutral
> it is.
>
> I'm using QTR for this, with curves simply entered in the point
> lists. The
> channels are not partitioned, since they are all the same density.
> The inks
> never go into a negative slope. Right now most curves are essentially
> straight lines, with the caveat that I make the starting points of
> all but
> the first one more gradual than a straight line would be. The last
> curve,
> which carries much or the black, has a highly increasing slope. I'll
> probably come up with a more or less overall slope and then figure
> out how
> to make the system more simple and equalize ink usage somewhat.
> Right now I
> have not figured the areas under the curves.
>
> I'll be sending this defective 1800 back soon, but, again, I think
> for those
> interested in a pure carbon print that will not suffer from the
> inevitable
> differential fade of the magenta & cyan color pigments, it
> tentatively looks
> like a viable solution for up to 13 x 19.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BTW Have nice prints with QTR
don't forget "Life is just what we are looking for..."
R1800 mostly in B&W (80%)
Lyson Inks R8
Moab papers
JCP
---------------------------------
Découvrez une nouvelle façon d'obtenir des réponses à toutes vos questions ! Profitez des connaissances, des opinions et des expériences des internautes sur Yahoo! Questions/Réponses.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2007-05-09 by Paul Roark
Hi Jean Claude, >I am following your test & trials... very exiting !!! Let's hope 1.5 pl dots allows us to finally get rid of the color pigs totally in relatively neutral, photo quality prints. I do still see a few occasional artifacts in my test prints, but I'm hopeful. Don't bet the farm on it yet. >Do you believe You'll succeed by keeping the color printing of >the R1800 and giving us the way to print good B&W? With the 1800 I now have (a defective refurb that I'm going to return) the issue is microbanding. Can it do a 3-Eboni B&W without microbanding? I can't say for sure. If it can, then matte color and pure carbon would be possible. >Are you testing with the PK and BK and with the Gloss head? I'm installing PK & Glop now. Paul www.PaulRoark.com
2007-05-10 by Paul Roark
>Do you believe You'll succeed by keeping the color printing of >the R1800 and giving us the way to print good B&W? It looks like, with some caveats, the R800/1800 can print both color and 100% Carbon/Eboni B&W -- on matte paper. The Glop channel prints just like the others. Also, 3 good channels can produce an excellent print. So, one could print color with the Epson driver and have Eboni in the MK, PK, and Glop spots and use QTR to print pure carbon B&W. The caveat is that not all of my channels are perfect. Three good channels -- meaning only minor microbanding when printed by themselves -- can make an excellent print. If one of the 3 needed for the carbon printing was a bad channel, I'm not sure you'd have enough jets firing to cover the defects. >Are you testing with the PK ...? The Epson R800 PK is too warm and green. Really ugly as a BO print, but a great, high gloss dmax. Without glop covering it on Kirkland glossy paper the reflection makes about the strongest rainbow I've seen. Actually, I think Eboni covered with glop on something like the Innova semi matte might be more interesting. Frankly, I'm still a matte paper printer and will probably not pursue this much. I did try some Eboni on Kirkland with glop. The glop might nail down the Eboni enough at least through the midtones. With an appropriate PK and on an appropriate paper, it could be part of an interesting medium warm print solution. Paul www.PaulRoark.com
2007-05-10 by jcpeos
thanks Paul for all these answers... As I am printing with Lyson inkset for the R1800, I'll have to change all my stuff to come on the MIS inkset... the Lyson and the MIS are not compatible ??? but I have to believe the one who knows ;-) I will change the carts by new one and flush all my Continuous Ink System (bottles, tubing) I'll flush with a ink solvent and cleaning cartridge to flush the head before going to MIS inks with -SURE - the 3 channels BK your are testing !!! I am so confident on your success go ahead, the r1800/r800 owner will look on you as the King.. ;-) Jean Claude --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote: > > > >Do you believe You'll succeed by keeping the color printing of > >the R1800 and giving us the way to print good B&W? > > It looks like, with some caveats, the R800/1800 can print both color and > 100% Carbon/Eboni B&W -- on matte paper. The Glop channel prints just like > the others. Also, 3 good channels can produce an excellent print. So, one > could print color with the Epson driver and have Eboni in the MK, PK, and > Glop spots and use QTR to print pure carbon B&W. > > The caveat is that not all of my channels are perfect. Three good channels > -- meaning only minor microbanding when printed by themselves -- can make an > excellent print. If one of the 3 needed for the carbon printing was a bad > channel, I'm not sure you'd have enough jets firing to cover the defects. > > > >Are you testing with the PK ...? > > The Epson R800 PK is too warm and green. Really ugly as a BO print, but a > great, high gloss dmax. Without glop covering it on Kirkland glossy paper > the reflection makes about the strongest rainbow I've seen. > > Actually, I think Eboni covered with glop on something like the Innova semi > matte might be more interesting. Frankly, I'm still a matte paper printer > and will probably not pursue this much. I did try some Eboni on Kirkland > with glop. The glop might nail down the Eboni enough at least through the > midtones. With an appropriate PK and on an appropriate paper, it could be
> part of an interesting medium warm print solution. > > Paul > www.PaulRoark.com >
2007-05-11 by Paul Roark
This is my latest experiment with this un-diluted, relatively neutral Eboni carbon core and the R1800. Since the Eboni core is more neutral to start with than the other neutral, non-blended carbon pigment inks, it might make an interesting starting place for the relatively neutral tonal (color) space I tend to like to print in. The more neutral the starting carbon core, the less color inks need to be added to achieve even a more neutral print. The fewer the color inks, the better I like it. With the previous variable tone inksets, to offset a yellowish carbon, I used a blue toner. I started mixing the blue toners from cyan and magenta. Then, when R800 blue became available, I used it and cyan. To avoid the problems of blended inksets, I moved to separate LC and LM channels. One problem I have with this approach is that the cyan and magenta will fade at different rates. Most likely, the prints will shift green as the magenta fades faster than the cyan. (Compare the RIT magenta and cyan pigment fade rates for MIS older color pigments at http://www.inksupply.com/rit.cfm Over about a 50 year simulated display life, the cyan was 5 to 7 times more lightfast. This strong cyan pulls the image tone into green as the magenta fades.) The first interesting toning variation to the multiple channel Eboni printing I've been experimenting with on the 1800 is to use a bit of R800 blue as a single-color toner. Basically, a tiny amount of R800 Blue makes a more neutral, classic "selenium" looking print. What I did is equalize the maximum midtone (50%) values for Lab A and B. See the charts at http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-Blue-PA270.jpg These compare the spectral distributions of Lab A and Lab b. (On the graph, the paper white is on the left and the 100% black on the right.) The top chart is 100% Eboni. The bottom chart is a QTR profile that injects just enough R800 blue into the Eboni core to make Lab A = B = 2 at 50%. This lowers the total chroma from 3.7 to 3.0 (according to my X-Rite Spectro) and, to me, makes a print that I might favor in some situations. The amount of toning can be varied via the ink limit and sliders in the QTR and IJC. The total amount of R800 Blue ink needed to reach this point in a curve point at 50% of (50, 13), with an ink limit of 2. So, multiplying these values, the R800 blue would be at 2.6%. At this point the Eboni curves total 9.4%, for comparison (but note that Eboni is probably a higher load ink). (The dmax for the carbon curves is at 82%.) The more neutral curve prints a 50% Lab L value of about L = 53, whereas the 100% Eboni core curve at this point prints a 50% Lab L = 53.9. So, there is little density that will be lost due to any blue ink fade. So one gets a slightly more neutral print to start with at the expense of a slightly larger warm color shift if the print is ever displayed for very long periods. Paul www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2007-05-11 by Paul Roark
This graph shows the spectral distributions of the Eboni core neutralized with R800 Blue on brightened Premier Art Matte BW: http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/MBW-1800-EB-N5.jpg The maximum blue addition is at 80%, where the Lab L density increases from 29.8 for pure Eboni to 29.5 for Eboni plus the blue. So, if the blue totally faded, it may be that density would only be decreased by L 0.3. At 50%, the addition of the blue needed to neutralize the Eboni medium warmth raises the density by L 0.8. For comparison, looking at a dilute carbon inkset and comparing the carbon 50% to the neutralized 50% density (in Lab L), there is a 3.7 difference. These numbers are probably approximate (samples of one each), but I think they help show the differences I'm trying to achieve. Assuming the color inks totally fade and the carbons are equally strong and do not fade (but we know dilute inks tend to fade more), the Eboni-based neutral print at 50% would fade only 20% as much as the dilute-carbon based neutral inkset print. And, of course, with the single R800 blue ink as the toner, there would be no cyan to pull the tone into green. The fade path would be straight from the neutralized to carbon tones. The single ink toner is also vastly easier to profile. Paul www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/> _____
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Roark Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 5:43 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Digital BW] R800-1800 Eboni Carbon Core variations -- Neutralizing with R800 Blue This is my latest experiment with this un-diluted, relatively neutral Eboni carbon core and the R1800. Since the Eboni core is more neutral to start with than the other neutral, non-blended carbon pigment inks, it might make an interesting starting place for the relatively neutral tonal (color) space I tend to like to print in. The more neutral the starting carbon core, the less color inks need to be added to achieve even a more neutral print. The fewer the color inks, the better I like it. With the previous variable tone inksets, to offset a yellowish carbon, I used a blue toner. I started mixing the blue toners from cyan and magenta. Then, when R800 blue became available, I used it and cyan. To avoid the problems of blended inksets, I moved to separate LC and LM channels. One problem I have with this approach is that the cyan and magenta will fade at different rates. Most likely, the prints will shift green as the magenta fades faster than the cyan. (Compare the RIT magenta and cyan pigment fade rates for MIS older color pigments at http://www.inksuppl <http://www.inksupply.com/rit.cfm> y.com/rit.cfm Over about a 50 year simulated display life, the cyan was 5 to 7 times more lightfast. This strong cyan pulls the image tone into green as the magenta fades.) The first interesting toning variation to the multiple channel Eboni printing I've been experimenting with on the 1800 is to use a bit of R800 blue as a single-color toner. Basically, a tiny amount of R800 Blue makes a more neutral, classic "selenium" looking print. What I did is equalize the maximum midtone (50%) values for Lab A and B. See the charts at http://www.paulroar <http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-Blue-PA270.jpg> k.com/BW-Info/Eboni-Blue-PA270.jpg These compare the spectral distributions of Lab A and Lab b. (On the graph, the paper white is on the left and the 100% black on the right.) The top chart is 100% Eboni. The bottom chart is a QTR profile that injects just enough R800 blue into the Eboni core to make Lab A = B = 2 at 50%. This lowers the total chroma from 3.7 to 3.0 (according to my X-Rite Spectro) and, to me, makes a print that I might favor in some situations. The amount of toning can be varied via the ink limit and sliders in the QTR and IJC. The total amount of R800 Blue ink needed to reach this point in a curve point at 50% of (50, 13), with an ink limit of 2. So, multiplying these values, the R800 blue would be at 2.6%. At this point the Eboni curves total 9.4%, for comparison (but note that Eboni is probably a higher load ink). (The dmax for the carbon curves is at 82%.) The more neutral curve prints a 50% Lab L value of about L = 53, whereas the 100% Eboni core curve at this point prints a 50% Lab L = 53.9. So, there is little density that will be lost due to any blue ink fade. So one gets a slightly more neutral print to start with at the expense of a slightly larger warm color shift if the print is ever displayed for very long periods. Paul www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroar <http://www.paulroark.com/> k.com/> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2007-05-11 by Paul Roark
With just a little red (.52% at 50%) injected over the Eboni core, I'm getting Lab A=B=2.5 on Premier Art 270. This is a nice medium warm that is close to what LensWork uses. More red causes Lab A to exceed B -- that is, it starts to go red. I am now also using an Eboni core that uses only the 3 channels MK, PK, and Glop. (It looks the same as the 6 Eboni channel core.) That allows full color printing on matte paper. Paul www.PaulRoark.com
2007-05-12 by Paul Roark
I've worked with numbers of carbon channels from 1 to 6. There is such a thing as too many here. I'd peg 4 as the optimum. 3 Eboni channels prints better than 6 channels and visually indistinguishable from 4 channels. Thus, with 8 channels available, the 1800 can support dual channels of excellent printing. One option that uses this is full color printing as well as the Eboni 100% carbon printing. For those who do full color and also want what is probably the most stable and lightfast digital B&W system we have, the 1800 is a very interesting alternative. In this alternative, all the colors are OEM or MIS alternatives. The color prints with the usual Epson driver workflow. I did a few color prints and they were excellent. The Eboni is in the MK, PK, and Glop channels. They are controlled by QTR. Only matte paper can be printed this way. A second option that will appeal to those who would rather have a glossy B&W alternative, the 1800 can support a separate EZ-N or other B&W printing inkset. I may put an EZ-N set with PK in my 1800 next (as well as, of course, the Eboni channels for carbon matte printing). I want the MIS PK there to be able to warm the Eboni in any case. At any rate, this 8-channel, 1.5 pl R800/1800 printing platform appears to give us the capability of running dual inksets. I think this is rather cool. Paul www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2007-05-14 by Jean Claude Parent
Yeah !!!
so you got it !!!
dual abilities "color & Good B&W" for the R1800/800 but as said before , only for Mat papers...
does a "pearl" surface have a lot of metamerism by printing with the Ebony Black when one would get a color print on this "pearl" surface?
If Yes, what about spraying an "gloss agent against UV" to get a "so gloss" apparence?
Bravo !!
As I said previously, I'll jump to MIS Ebony If you succeed... so time is coming for me to leave LYSON !
and
1)to buy some emptyed MIS cartridge to change mine full of Lyson inks
2) to flush my printing heads with cleaning fluid
3) to install the new emptyed cartridges and set up my CIS (after a complete flushing of tanks and tubing system of the Lyson CIS sytem)
4) enjoy real B&W printing !!!
rgds
jean claude
Paul Roark <paul.roark@...> a écrit :
I've worked with numbers of carbon channels from 1 to 6. There is such a
thing as too many here. I'd peg 4 as the optimum. 3 Eboni channels prints
better than 6 channels and visually indistinguishable from 4 channels.
Thus, with 8 channels available, the 1800 can support dual channels of
excellent printing.
One option that uses this is full color printing as well as the Eboni 100%
carbon printing. For those who do full color and also want what is probably
the most stable and lightfast digital B&W system we have, the 1800 is a very
interesting alternative. In this alternative, all the colors are OEM or MIS
alternatives. The color prints with the usual Epson driver workflow. I did
a few color prints and they were excellent. The Eboni is in the MK, PK, and
Glop channels. They are controlled by QTR. Only matte paper can be printed
this way.
A second option that will appeal to those who would rather have a glossy B&W
alternative, the 1800 can support a separate EZ-N or other B&W printing
inkset. I may put an EZ-N set with PK in my 1800 next (as well as, of
course, the Eboni channels for carbon matte printing). I want the MIS PK
there to be able to warm the Eboni in any case.
At any rate, this 8-channel, 1.5 pl R800/1800 printing platform appears to
give us the capability of running dual inksets. I think this is rather
cool.
Paul
www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BTW Have nice prints with QTR
don't forget "Life is just what we are looking for..."
R1800 mostly in B&W (80%)
Lyson Inks R8
Moab papers
JCP
---------------------------------
Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail ! Copiez vos mails vers Yahoo! Mail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2007-05-14 by Jean Claude Parent
Paul,
when do you feel that this new ebony set will be available to buy?
and what will be it's references?
thanks & rgds
jean claude
Paul Roark <paul.roark@...> a écrit :
I've worked with numbers of carbon channels from 1 to 6. There is such a
thing as too many here. I'd peg 4 as the optimum. 3 Eboni channels prints
better than 6 channels and visually indistinguishable from 4 channels.
Thus, with 8 channels available, the 1800 can support dual channels of
excellent printing.
One option that uses this is full color printing as well as the Eboni 100%
carbon printing. For those who do full color and also want what is probably
the most stable and lightfast digital B&W system we have, the 1800 is a very
interesting alternative. In this alternative, all the colors are OEM or MIS
alternatives. The color prints with the usual Epson driver workflow. I did
a few color prints and they were excellent. The Eboni is in the MK, PK, and
Glop channels. They are controlled by QTR. Only matte paper can be printed
this way.
A second option that will appeal to those who would rather have a glossy B&W
alternative, the 1800 can support a separate EZ-N or other B&W printing
inkset. I may put an EZ-N set with PK in my 1800 next (as well as, of
course, the Eboni channels for carbon matte printing). I want the MIS PK
there to be able to warm the Eboni in any case.
At any rate, this 8-channel, 1.5 pl R800/1800 printing platform appears to
give us the capability of running dual inksets. I think this is rather
cool.
Paul
www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BTW Have nice prints with QTR
don't forget "Life is just what we are looking for..."
R1800 mostly in B&W (80%)
Lyson Inks R8
Moab papers
JCP
---------------------------------
Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail ! Copiez vos mails vers Yahoo! Mail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2007-05-15 by Paul Roark
Hi Jean Claude, >... dual abilities "color & Good B&W" for the R1800/800 > but as said before , only for Mat papers... >does a "pearl" surface have a lot of metamerism by printing >with the Ebony Black when one would get a color print on this >"pearl" surface? I think Eboni on the pearl surface will look dusty -- flat. I think peal needs Photo Black, unless I'm thinking of the wrong paper. Metamerism is not a problem with Eboni. >If Yes, what about spraying an "gloss agent against UV" to get >a "so gloss" apparence? Some spray matte black inks on glossy surfaces. Actaully, in one experiment I used Glop in the 1800 to nail down the Eboni. It worked for the lighter densities, but the high loads from about 85% on continued to be easy to smear. (The 260 is next -- no dual capabilities there, just simple, cheap Eboni for now.) Paul www.PaulRoark.com
2007-05-15 by Paul Roark
Jean Claude, >when do you feel that this new ebony set will be available to buy? I don't know. I'm still experimenting with it. Minimizing the artifacts with 1.5 pl dots and only high load inks is harder than with very dilute inks and large dots. I haven't had the time to see how different papers look either. So far my usual un-brightened Premier Art Smooth 270 seems good, but I'm not sure if it's even available where you are. Do they sell Epson UltraSmooth there? Of course, anyone with an R800 or 1800 can buy Eboni and stick it in several positions and experiment with this. Paul www.PaulRoark.com
2007-05-15 by Jean Claude Parent
Paul,
>Minimizing the artifacts....dilute inks...and large dots.
Does that means that the Ebony is much more difficult to set with QTR than BK and LK?
>premier art smooth...
is available but EPSON UltraSmooth got another name on European market with same (of course) references SO41896 -13*19 it is called here "photo art Fin ultra lisse..."
>of course every one can buy & test ebony...
paul, we believe in you !!!
you are the one able to set and dilute as it should the several blacks so... I (we?) are waiting after your experiences...
BUT:
if I could help you in any ways like:
testing on some papers (moab, Ilford...) but I don't have the correct inks ;-(
doing some another stuff ?
or anything else in my possibilities...
I'll do it with pleasue...
don't hesitate
jean claude
Paul Roark <paul.roark@...> a écrit :
Jean Claude,
>when do you feel that this new ebony set will be available to buy?
I don't know. I'm still experimenting with it. Minimizing the artifacts
with 1.5 pl dots and only high load inks is harder than with very dilute
inks and large dots. I haven't had the time to see how different papers
look either. So far my usual un-brightened Premier Art Smooth 270 seems
good, but I'm not sure if it's even available where you are. Do they sell
Epson UltraSmooth there?
Of course, anyone with an R800 or 1800 can buy Eboni and stick it in several
positions and experiment with this.
Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
BTW Have nice prints with QTR
don't forget "Life is just what we are looking for..."
R1800 mostly in B&W (80%)
Lyson Inks R8
Moab papers
JCP
---------------------------------
Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail ! Copiez vos mails vers Yahoo! Mail
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2007-05-15 by jcpeos
Paul, >Of course, anyone with an R800 or 1800 can buy Eboni ... and experiment with this. To check the "bad" effect on Color Prints with the BK (from lyson not MIS) I did an icc profile for my "semi-gloss" moab KOKOPELLI paper and the BK ink. to be sure to print with the BK instead of PK, I printed my "Test IT8 print" with the R1800 driver setting for Matt Archival I print with Phptoshop CS on this semi matt paper and OFF COURSE got a lot of Non "semi-glossy" places due to the BK ink... Easily corrected with a spray and the result is quite correct but not as perfect compare to a print with PK instead of BK (both icc profiles for the duo -lyson & moab- are mine done with MonacoEZcolor) So, my question is: with your 3 blacks Ebony inks is that possible to use as "mid black" (dark grey) the PK ink ? meaning BK -Ebony Black- + PK + LLBK (ebony) in the Glop position Does that won't fit with your project ? if the B&W prints result is quite closed to your 3 black Ebony's inks using QTR, is that a solution for keeping color prints on Glossy/semi- glossy papers with the Epson driver? In fact the question is: Does the PK is compatible wth EBONY's Blacks-normal and/or diluted-? Sorry for these "new bee" questions? jean claude --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote: > > > Jean Claude, > > >when do you feel that this new ebony set will be available to buy? > > I don't know. I'm still experimenting with it. Minimizing the artifacts > with 1.5 pl dots and only high load inks is harder than with very dilute > inks and large dots. I haven't had the time to see how different papers > look either. So far my usual un-brightened Premier Art Smooth 270 seems > good, but I'm not sure if it's even available where you are. Do they sell > Epson UltraSmooth there? > > Of course, anyone with an R800 or 1800 can buy Eboni and stick it in several
> positions and experiment with this. > > Paul > www.PaulRoark.com >
2007-05-15 by Paul Roark
Jean Claude, >Does that means that the Ebony is much more difficult to set >with QTR than BK and LK? How the Eboni curves are set up affects the quality of the image. My intention is to come up with a standard set of curves for the Eboni that minimizes the artifacts, and then most people would simply tweak the dmax and linearize for different matte papers. So come up with this initial set of Eboni curves, however, is a manual trial land error effort to a certain extent. The QTR semi-automatic partitioning does not do it, since these are all the same density. Also, right now I have the Glop position carrying the dmax. I did this because I don't know if there is a simple way to check the nozzles for that position. So, I was just going to hide problems in the deep shadows. However, not having the black boost makes tweaking the dmax more difficult, so I might move the dmax control back to MK to utilize the boost. Right now 2 of the 3 Eboni curves are just straight lines. So, I have yet to do a lot of experimenting with curve shapes. That fact that I'm getting creamy-smooth prints at normal viewing distance is encouraging. Getting them perfect with a loupe is not there yet, however. Some of the issues actually remind me of the old 3000, where the paper transport was barely good enough even in the best of circumstances. I'm finding, for example, that the ends of the paper, particularly the bottom 1" (2.5 cm), are more prone to microbanding. The 1800 appears to benefit from having both the main and exit rollers doing their jobs. So, whereas I'd now be getting nearly perfect 11 x 14 prints on 13 x 19 paper (which, by the way, is my target for sale prints -- so I'm there for me), I'd like to see if I can make more progress with smaller prints. It may be that thinner paper is needed. I'll try the 205 today. (I'm also getting flaking with Premier Art 270. I've never had flaking with the 205 or 325. However, those 2 are dual sided. I'm wondering if this flaking is due to a single coating or is an artifact of Eboni. I doubt it's the Eboni.) >>premier art smooth... >is available but EPSON UltraSmooth got another name on European >market with same (of course) references SO41896 -13*19 it is >called here "photo art Fin ultra lisse..." I'm finding the Premier Art (UltraSmooth) coating to give me the print tones I like. The more "edge" there is with the Eboni dots, the more the warmth. So, more dilute means more warmth. More small dots are warmer than fewer large dots. Papers that hold a tight dot seem to give a more neutral paper than those that allow the dot to spread. So, for neutrality, we'd like perfectly opaque dots with perfectly sharp edges. The Eboni is dense enough that the centers of the dots are opaque, but minimizing the spread of the dot makes a better print, in my view. I have not tried a large number of papers yet, but the Moab line is clearly one that may be very suitable for this approach. I suspect Clayton's experiences with BO printing and print tone may apply here. (By the way, with 3.5 pl printers, I get a more neutral print. To match the R1800 print tone, I can add just a bit of LK. This warms the larger prints so they match the 1.5 pl prints. It also significantly reduces the roughness of the print. Hint: don't throw away old 7600s and 9600s that have a few clogged jets. What's left of them may be perfect for making large prints that match the tone of the small prints people with 260s will be getting.) I'll try to keep people posted on my progress, including the weaknesses. This is not for everyone, but I am hopeful those who want to get the color inks out of their prints yet still have a neutral-looking, photo-quality print will be able to use this method to do so. We'll see. >with your 3 blacks Ebony inks is that possible to use >as "mid black" (dark grey) the PK ink ? MIS PK makes a very warm print. The Epson PK is warm and greenish. If one wants color + Eboni B&W in an 1800, then there is no more room for anything else. >meaning BK -Ebony Black- + PK + LLBK (ebony) in the Glop position Recall that diluting leads to warmth. So, what I'm doing is not using any dilute black inks. That's why I can make a relatively neutral print without color inks (that will cause color -- green -- shift as they fade at different rates). One could have a 3-ink, partitioned B&W inkset in the 1800 also. With this you'd use the color inks to tone the warm carbon core. The carbon core could probably be partitioned almost automatically with QTR. This would be the same as the generic K3 inkset I'm suggesting for the 220 and ALL Epson hextone or better printers where one wants a variable tone inkset. This is easy -- almost too easy to be any fun for me. One could probably just use Mk, Pk, and Lk for the matte. Then the question would be whether just the LK and PK could make a good glossy B&W print. The LK might spread enough to cover the microbanding. Also, you'd have color inks being poured in to neutralize the image, so I'd probably be fine for a glossy B&W. But, of course, we'd be back to color inks in our B&W prints and all the complexities of balancing the color inks. Also, there would be no room for Glop in this setup, but I use MIS inks for glossy B&W without glop for my brochures and the like. They don't bronze very much on many papers. Paul www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2007-05-16 by Paul Roark
I've always thought that from a "collectible" perspective, pure "carbon on cotton" might be the ultimate B&W inkjet medium. With the 1800 firing 3 channels of Eboni onto UN-coated Arches Bright White Hot Press 140 lb. (300 gsm), I think I'm closer to an acceptable photo-quality "pure" carbon on cotton image than I've seen before. Usually I consider a 1.60 dmax density (about Lab L 18) to be my minimum acceptable dmax for matte papers. I'm happy to say I'm measuring that on Arches HP now -- at least occasionally. The blacks deeper than 95% have a blotchiness to them that causes the measures to vary a bit. The blotchiness might be best avoided in smooth, heavily-filtered skies, where 95% would be the darkest tone that would be very smooth. On the other hand, in most situations, the slight un-evenness is probably not a big deal. At any rate, with 3 Eboni channels firing, for a total QTR load of about 157, a 1.60 (L 18.06) is possible. The Lab A & B tones are nearly perfect for this creamy paper. The paper base has an (a, b) of (0.7, 2.8). These reach a maximum at about 50% of (1.3, 3.6). See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/ArchesHP.jpg for a graph of Lab A & B. The un-coated Arches HP is not quite as smooth as Epson UltraSmooth, but it's not bad. These dense little Eboni dots don't spread very much. I'm looking at a test print of my New Army Pass shot, which is on my home page at www.PaulRoark.com, and it looks nearly perfect in normal viewing. If the light is reflecting off the surface, I can see some of the un-even reflectiveness in the deepest blacks caused by the very high loads, but it's not apparent in normal viewing. In normal viewing the blacks look good. The test print is totally flat, with no waviness from the high black ink loads. I don't use cold press, but it might achieve the same dmax while hiding the uneven reflections of the deepest blacks. One thing I did notice is that the paper takes a long time to dry compared to our usual coated matte papers. I think this could be a serious contender for some who like to identify their photos with "fine art." The paper color matches the matte board I use almost perfectly. While most who buy my photos are clueless about the paper and ink issues, I think in some situations this paper option could have appeal. I'm definitely intrigued by the possibilities here. Paul www.PaulRoark.com
2007-05-16 by Richard Smallfield
At 04:07 AM Thursday 5/17/2007, you wrote: >I've always thought that from a "collectible" perspective, pure "carbon on >cotton" might be the ultimate B&W inkjet medium. With the 1800 firing 3 >channels of Eboni onto UN-coated Arches Bright White Hot Press 140 lb. (300 >gsm), I think I'm closer to an acceptable photo-quality "pure" carbon on >cotton image than I've seen before. Ages ago, I had relative success with the uncoated 'Fabriano Artistico Rough' (better blacks than I got with the Arches Hot Press) - but you have to want texture. I've not returned to it because the coated papers have better dmax. Richard -- http://smallfield.vze.com http://photos.smallfield.vze.com (Photos web site) http://warkworth.vze.com/ (Warkworth photo essay) http://picasaweb.google.com/rsmallfield/ (Recent work) "What is life? It is the flash of a firefly in the night. It is the breath of a buffalo in the wintertime. It is the little shadow which runs across the grass and loses itself in the sunset." --Crowfoot, Blackfoot warior and orator, 1890 - last words.