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Digital 'contact prints'

Digital 'contact prints'

2007-07-16 by Sarah Thompson

Firstly, thanks to the people who responded about my lack-of-neutral 
tone problem with my r2400 ABW prints -- it did turn out to be a flaky 
light magenta cartridge. Swapping it out helped a fair bit, but wasn't 
perfect. Then, I moved house, which involved packing everything up, 
putting it in a truck and driving about 40 miles. On trying again, the 
prints were perfectly neutral, so I therefore recommend moving house as 
often as possible as a means of maintaining consistent print quality. ;-)

Actually, what I really wanted to write about is some experiments I've 
done recently. I read a few articles online about problems with the 
default interpolation algorithms used by both Photoshop and the Epson 
drivers when rescaling images to the driver's internal 720ppi 
resolution. I was thinking about doing some experiments with various 
interpolation algorithms, then it occured to me, why not just print the 
actual *image* at 720dpi? This means that no interpolation will occur 
other than that which is purely part of the driver's dithering 
algorithm. I realise that for many people this would result in prints 
that are too small, but I am lucky enough that my two cameras have 
4000x4000 and 8000x6000 resolution (a Megavision E4 monochrome 
medium-format back and a Better Light large format scan back 
respectively). Anyway, I tried it with a few images and was blown away 
with the results -- the prints (made with the Epson driver in ABW mode, 
Photo RPM, Epson Premium Glossy) are astonishingly sharp, if anything 
more so than a large-format contact print (hence the title of the post), 
with a level of three-dimensionality that I've never really seen before. 
A (medium-format) photo taken a few months ago in Yosemite Valley from a 
bridge over one of the streams shows incredibly fine detail in the 
foliage. I also printed a couple of Better Light images shot in the 
Mojave desert in Joshua Tree National Monument (roughly letter-size) 
where every grain in the sandstone of a large boulder was clearly visible.

I think these days there is a real push toward ever-larger prints, but 
some of the best images I've ever seen were actually really quite small 
by modern standards (I'm thinking here of some original prints by Edward 
Weston, who was very much into the contact printing approach).

Anyway, just thinking out loud, and wondering if anyone else had tried 
the same approach.

[s]

Re: Digital 'contact prints'

2007-07-16 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Sarah Thompson
<sarah@...> wrote:
>
> ...then it occured to me, why not just print the 
> actual *image* at 720dpi? This means that no interpolation will occur 
> other than that which is purely part of the driver's dithering 
> algorithm.

bingo!

...

> Anyway, just thinking out loud, and wondering if anyone else had tried 
> the same approach.

yes, with the same result. Thinking of doing a body of work this way
with imagery suited to the smaller prints.
Where's the time?
Tyler

Re: [Digital BW] Digital 'contact prints'

2007-07-16 by Michael King

Sarah,

Did you print with "Finest detail" checked in the print dialog?
In my tests it only prints @ 720 when finest detail is checked, otherwise it
downsamples to 360, presumably to keep the processing time and spool size
down.

Mike


On 16/07/07, Sarah Thompson <sarah@...> wrote:
>
>   Firstly, thanks to the people who responded about my lack-of-neutral
> tone problem with my r2400 ABW prints -- it did turn out to be a flaky
> light magenta cartridge. Swapping it out helped a fair bit, but wasn't
> perfect. Then, I moved house, which involved packing everything up,
> putting it in a truck and driving about 40 miles. On trying again, the
> prints were perfectly neutral, so I therefore recommend moving house as
> often as possible as a means of maintaining consistent print quality. ;-)
>
> Actually, what I really wanted to write about is some experiments I've
> done recently. I read a few articles online about problems with the
> default interpolation algorithms used by both Photoshop and the Epson
> drivers when rescaling images to the driver's internal 720ppi
> resolution. I was thinking about doing some experiments with various
> interpolation algorithms, then it occured to me, why not just print the
> actual *image* at 720dpi? This means that no interpolation will occur
> other than that which is purely part of the driver's dithering
> algorithm. I realise that for many people this would result in prints
> that are too small, but I am lucky enough that my two cameras have
> 4000x4000 and 8000x6000 resolution (a Megavision E4 monochrome
> medium-format back and a Better Light large format scan back
> respectively). Anyway, I tried it with a few images and was blown away
> with the results -- the prints (made with the Epson driver in ABW mode,
> Photo RPM, Epson Premium Glossy) are astonishingly sharp, if anything
> more so than a large-format contact print (hence the title of the post),
> with a level of three-dimensionality that I've never really seen before.
> A (medium-format) photo taken a few months ago in Yosemite Valley from a
> bridge over one of the streams shows incredibly fine detail in the
> foliage. I also printed a couple of Better Light images shot in the
> Mojave desert in Joshua Tree National Monument (roughly letter-size)
> where every grain in the sandstone of a large boulder was clearly visible.
>
> I think these days there is a real push toward ever-larger prints, but
> some of the best images I've ever seen were actually really quite small
> by modern standards (I'm thinking here of some original prints by Edward
> Weston, who was very much into the contact printing approach).
>
> Anyway, just thinking out loud, and wondering if anyone else had tried
> the same approach.
>
> [s]
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Digital 'contact prints'

2007-07-16 by Sarah Thompson

Michael King wrote:
> Sarah,
>
> Did you print with "Finest detail" checked in the print dialog?
> In my tests it only prints @ 720 when finest detail is checked, otherwise it
> downsamples to 360, presumably to keep the processing time and spool size
> down.
>
>   
I can't remember seeing a finest detail option -- where is it? Are you 
using Mac or PC?

Sarah

Re: [Digital BW] Digital 'contact prints'

2007-07-16 by Michael King

on PC you get to it by clicking the advanced button on the first tab.
That takes you to the tab where you can set up various parameters for ABW
including tint and
"Finest detail".

Mike


On 16/07/07, Sarah Thompson <sarah@...> wrote:
>
>   Michael King wrote:
> > Sarah,
> >
> > Did you print with "Finest detail" checked in the print dialog?
> > In my tests it only prints @ 720 when finest detail is checked,
> otherwise it
> > downsamples to 360, presumably to keep the processing time and spool
> size
> > down.
> >
> >
> I can't remember seeing a finest detail option -- where is it? Are you
> using Mac or PC?
>
> Sarah
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Digital 'contact prints'

2007-07-16 by Sarah Thompson

Hmm... am I being blind? I still can't find it:

http://files.support.epson.com/htmldocs/r2400_/r2400_rf/images/g12w_04.gif

Sarah



Michael King wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> on PC you get to it by clicking the advanced button on the first tab.
> That takes you to the tab where you can set up various parameters for ABW
> including tint and
> "Finest detail".
>
> Mike
>
>
> On 16/07/07, Sarah Thompson <sarah@...> wrote:
>   
>>   Michael King wrote:
>>     
>>> Sarah,
>>>
>>> Did you print with "Finest detail" checked in the print dialog?
>>> In my tests it only prints @ 720 when finest detail is checked,
>>>       
>> otherwise it
>>     
>>> downsamples to 360, presumably to keep the processing time and spool
>>>       
>> size
>>     
>>> down.
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>> I can't remember seeing a finest detail option -- where is it? Are you
>> using Mac or PC?
>>
>> Sarah
>>
>>
>>     
>
>

RE: [Digital BW] Digital 'contact prints'

2007-07-16 by Alan Kearney

No, your not blind. Epson "hides" this option. So here's how I get to it.
From Photoshop I select Print w/Preview, after checking the settings I
select Print. Some times I'm told the paper is larger than the printer - I
just click "Proceed", next I have to select which printer I'll be using
(I've got 4 to select from in the Print Window) > Select Epson Stylus Pro
4800 (your's will be R2400(?). Next click on the "Properties" button which
brings up the Epson Stylus Pro 4800 Properties screen, here's where you'll
see 4 tabs but NO Advanced button on the first Tab YET. 

 

So next I have to select a paper or Custom setting that works with ABW, I'll
select "Watercolor Paper - Radiant White" to print on the Hahnemuhle paper
I'm using right now (just match this selection to your printing/paper
needs).

 

Selecting this kind or paper or selecting the "Custom" Radio Button about
1/3 down the first tabs surface, sort of middle - right of the page. Either
action will finally display the Advanced button (quite large, just below
"Custom Setting").

 

From here you have to select Advanced B&W Photo and you'll have a ton of
options to choose from!

 

Hope that helps. If not send me you direct email address and I'll take
screen shots to send to you.

 

Good luck, Alan

 

alan_kearney@...

 

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sarah
Thompson
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 2:39 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Digital 'contact prints'

 

Hmm... am I being blind? I still can't find it:

http://files.
<http://files.support.epson.com/htmldocs/r2400_/r2400_rf/images/g12w_04.gif>
support.epson.com/htmldocs/r2400_/r2400_rf/images/g12w_04.gif

Sarah

Michael King wrote:
> on PC you get to it by clicking the advanced button on the first tab.
> That takes you to the tab where you can set up various parameters for ABW
> including tint and
> "Finest detail".
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Digital 'contact prints'

2007-07-16 by Michael King

Txs Alan as I was scratching my head trying to figure out what was going on.

Also Sarah you can download a resolution test image from this link that will
show you what resolution you are really printing at.

http://www.ddisoftware.com/qimage/quality/

Mike



On 17/07/07, Alan Kearney <alan_kearney@...> wrote:
>
>   No, your not blind. Epson "hides" this option. So here's how I get to
> it.
> From Photoshop I select Print w/Preview, after checking the settings I
> select Print. Some times I'm told the paper is larger than the printer - I
> just click "Proceed", next I have to select which printer I'll be using
> (I've got 4 to select from in the Print Window) > Select Epson Stylus Pro
> 4800 (your's will be R2400(?). Next click on the "Properties" button which
> brings up the Epson Stylus Pro 4800 Properties screen, here's where you'll
> see 4 tabs but NO Advanced button on the first Tab YET.
>
> So next I have to select a paper or Custom setting that works with ABW,
> I'll
> select "Watercolor Paper - Radiant White" to print on the Hahnemuhle paper
> I'm using right now (just match this selection to your printing/paper
> needs).
>
> Selecting this kind or paper or selecting the "Custom" Radio Button about
> 1/3 down the first tabs surface, sort of middle - right of the page.
> Either
> action will finally display the Advanced button (quite large, just below
> "Custom Setting").
>
> From here you have to select Advanced B&W Photo and you'll have a ton of
> options to choose from!
>
> Hope that helps. If not send me you direct email address and I'll take
> screen shots to send to you.
>
> Good luck, Alan
>
> alan_kearney@... <alan_kearney%40sbcglobal.net>
>
> _____
>
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com<DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com<DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>]
> On Behalf Of Sarah
> Thompson
> Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 2:39 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com<DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Digital 'contact prints'
>
> Hmm... am I being blind? I still can't find it:
>
> http://files.
> <
> http://files.support.epson.com/htmldocs/r2400_/r2400_rf/images/g12w_04.gif
> >
> support.epson.com/htmldocs/r2400_/r2400_rf/images/g12w_04.gif
>
> Sarah
>
> Michael King wrote:
> > on PC you get to it by clicking the advanced button on the first tab.
> > That takes you to the tab where you can set up various parameters for
> ABW
> > including tint and
> > "Finest detail".
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Digital 'contact prints'

2007-07-17 by Sarah Thompson

Michael King wrote:
> Txs Alan as I was scratching my head trying to figure out what was going on.
>
> Also Sarah you can download a resolution test image from this link that will
> show you what resolution you are really printing at.
>
> http://www.ddisoftware.com/qimage/quality/
>
> Mike
>   
I think there must be a slight difference between the 2400 and the 4800 
drivers -- I couldn't get that particular option to appear whatever I 
did. However, I reproduced my printing procedure with the Qimage test 
image as you suggested, and it seems that the r2400 was printing at 
720ppi after all. You can clearly see the difference between the 720 and 
the 360ppi tests, particularly in column D, so I think it's pretty much 
proven. One thing that I would say, though, is that in column A, you 
can't actually resolve adjacent lines, so whilst the ppi is clearly 720, 
I have my suspicions that the real optical resolution as seen in the 
final print is probably closer to 360, but if you're printing from an 
image that's come from a Bayer pattern sensor, printing at 720 will 
match this pretty much exactly. Since my images aren't 
Bayer-interpolated at all, it might make more sense for me to be 
resampling the image exactly 2:1 in each axis, so the Nyquist limit of 
the image will match the Nyquist limit of the printer. Hmmm... I shall 
have to try that...

Actually, I've probably answered my own question here -- adjacent black 
and white lines are actually *exactly* on the Nyquist frequency, so 
clever DSP algorthms responsible for the dithering are probably going to 
brick wall below that frequency in order to avoid aliasing (i.e. visible 
pixellation). Since the frequency limit of an image sourced from a Bayer 
sensor is actually f/4 for red and blue and a bit more for green, this 
should all be comfortably under the true Nyquist limit.

[s]

Re: [Digital BW] Digital 'contact prints'

2007-07-17 by bwinkjet

Hi,

I can find it.  My question is why check it for traditional 
rasterized files?  Epson states it is for use with print or vector 
images to sharpen straight lines.  Does it help or hinder when 
checked and used with raster files of landscape, portraits, 
paintings, etc.?

Paul


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Sarah Thompson 
<sarah@...> wrote:
>
> Hmm... am I being blind? I still can't find it:
> 
> 
http://files.support.epson.com/htmldocs/r2400_/r2400_rf/images/g12w_04
.gif
> 
> Sarah
> 
> 
> 
> Michael King wrote:
> > on PC you get to it by clicking the advanced button on the first 
tab.
> > That takes you to the tab where you can set up various parameters 
for ABW
> > including tint and
> > "Finest detail".
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > On 16/07/07, Sarah Thompson <sarah@...> wrote:
> >   
> >>   Michael King wrote:
> >>     
> >>> Sarah,
> >>>
> >>> Did you print with "Finest detail" checked in the print dialog?
> >>> In my tests it only prints @ 720 when finest detail is checked,
> >>>       
> >> otherwise it
> >>     
> >>> downsamples to 360, presumably to keep the processing time and 
spool
> >>>       
> >> size
> >>     
> >>> down.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>       
> >> I can't remember seeing a finest detail option -- where is it? 
Are you
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> >> using Mac or PC?
> >>
> >> Sarah
> >>
> >>
> >>     
> >
> >
>

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