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RE: [Digital BW] Crane Portfolio Rag DMAX

RE: [Digital BW] Crane Portfolio Rag DMAX

2007-08-02 by Richard Wolfson

I like Crane's Museo Portfolio Rag very much for my black & white printing. Here are some of my Dmax measurements with a few comparisons. Note that I'm using the new GQ2 ink set I designed for Media Street.

Paper					Dmax	   K limit
Museo Portfolio Rag		1.64		 50%
Hahnemuhle Photo Rag		1.72		100%
Museo Silver Rag
  K = Photo Black Neutral	2.09		 63%
  K = Matte Black			1.77		100%

I agree with John Dean: you have to limit the inks on Crane's papers, and it is a beautiful paper. Since it has no optical brightener, it is a little warmer (but just a little) than Hahnemuhle Photo Rag. 

Since the GQ2 ink set includes both warm and cold grays in its seven inks, it's easy to adjust how warm the b&w prints should be. I build Cold, Warm, and Neutral profiles, and Roy Harrington's latest QuadToneRIP offers "Split Tone Curve Blending." That makes it easy to blend those three profiles for beautiful platinum prints (warm in the light to mid tones, neutral to cool in the darker tones) on papers like Crane's.

Richard

Richard Wolfson
black & white digital printmaker
www.RichardWolfson.com


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Re: [Digital BW] Crane Portfolio Rag DMAX

2007-08-02 by Terry Ritz

Thanks for the data Richard.

I did a bit of "troubleshooting" last night. I printed the QTR
calibration strip on Innova Soft Texture Art. I also printed a step
wedge on the same paper using my custom curve. 

I was very surprised to find that the 100% patch on the step wedge was
no longer solid black. It looks as if the paper has been overloaded
and it's density measures significantly less than the 95% patch. When
I checked the calibration strip the highest reading I now get is 1.57,
versus 1.63 before. Also, the points I used to build my curve (i.e.
ink limit) has shifted.

I went back to some old prints and indeed, they still measure as
expected (i.e. my spectro is fine). I tried a new black cartridge and
also aligned the printer heads (2200). There was a slight improvement,
but relatively little.

Something is out of whack.

Terry.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Wolfson"
<rw@...> wrote:
>
> I like Crane's Museo Portfolio Rag very much for my black & white
printing. Here are some of my Dmax measurements with a few
comparisons. Note that I'm using the new GQ2 ink set I designed for
Media Street.
> 
> Paper					Dmax	   K limit
> Museo Portfolio Rag		1.64		 50%
> Hahnemuhle Photo Rag		1.72		100%
> Museo Silver Rag
>   K = Photo Black Neutral	2.09		 63%
>   K = Matte Black			1.77		100%
> 
> I agree with John Dean: you have to limit the inks on Crane's
papers, and it is a beautiful paper. Since it has no optical
brightener, it is a little warmer (but just a little) than Hahnemuhle
Photo Rag. 
> 
> Since the GQ2 ink set includes both warm and cold grays in its seven
inks, it's easy to adjust how warm the b&w prints should be. I build
Cold, Warm, and Neutral profiles, and Roy Harrington's latest
QuadToneRIP offers "Split Tone Curve Blending." That makes it easy to
blend those three profiles for beautiful platinum prints (warm in the
light to mid tones, neutral to cool in the darker tones) on papers
like Crane's.
> 
> Richard
> 
> Richard Wolfson
> black & white digital printmaker
> www.RichardWolfson.com
> 
> 
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.2/931 - Release Date:
8/1/2007 4:53 PM
>

Re: [Digital BW] Crane Portfolio Rag DMAX

2007-08-02 by john dean

That's what I just said. Limit your black channel or your going to
loose dmax. It is over inking, just like everyone has been talking
about here. It is definately going to happen with the ABM Epson driver
or QTR if you aren't careful and aware of it. 

What I like about the paper is that is very smooth and sharp, much
more so than Photorag for small prints. Premier Art Hotpress is also
but for some reason it produces a strange reddish or bluish cast
depending on the inkset used. I hate Premier Art for monochrome. I
like the color of the Crane PR with sepia inks but I certainly
wouldn't use it as my primary paper for neutral toned work.

Richard, how is the world are you getting a 1.72 dmax on Photorag with
that inkset of yours? You must have put some dye in that black
channel. I've never seen a pure pigment go that high on matte papers
under the best conditions. The best I can get is 1.69 on a very good
day. Are you seeing bronzing with your inks on the fiber gloss papers,
or can one avoid the nasty sprays? 

john
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> I was very surprised to find that the 100% patch on the step wedge was
> no longer solid black. It looks as if the paper has been overloaded
> and it's density measures significantly less than the 95% patch. When
> I checked the calibration strip the highest reading I now get is 1.57,
> versus 1.63 before. Also, the points I used to build my curve (i.e.
> ink limit) has shifted.
> 
> I went back to some old prints and indeed, they still measure as
> expected (i.e. my spectro is fine). I tried a new black cartridge and
> also aligned the printer heads (2200). There was a slight improvement,
> but relatively little.
> 
> Something is out of whack.
> 
> Terry.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Wolfson"
> <rw@> wrote:
> >
> > I like Crane's Museo Portfolio Rag very much for my black & white
> printing. Here are some of my Dmax measurements with a few
> comparisons. Note that I'm using the new GQ2 ink set I designed for
> Media Street.
> > 
> > Paper					Dmax	   K limit
> > Museo Portfolio Rag		1.64		 50%
> > Hahnemuhle Photo Rag		1.72		100%
> > Museo Silver Rag
> >   K = Photo Black Neutral	2.09		 63%
> >   K = Matte Black			1.77		100%
> > 
> > I agree with John Dean: you have to limit the inks on Crane's
> papers, and it is a beautiful paper. Since it has no optical
> brightener, it is a little warmer (but just a little) than Hahnemuhle
> Photo Rag. 
> > 
> > Since the GQ2 ink set includes both warm and cold grays in its seven
> inks, it's easy to adjust how warm the b&w prints should be. I build
> Cold, Warm, and Neutral profiles, and Roy Harrington's latest
> QuadToneRIP offers "Split Tone Curve Blending." That makes it easy to
> blend those three profiles for beautiful platinum prints (warm in the
> light to mid tones, neutral to cool in the darker tones) on papers
> like Crane's.
> > 
> > Richard
> > 
> > Richard Wolfson
> > black & white digital printmaker
> > www.RichardWolfson.com
> > 
> > 
> > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
> > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.2/931 - Release Date:
> 8/1/2007 4:53 PM
> >
>

Re: [Digital BW] Crane Portfolio Rag DMAX

2007-08-02 by Carl Schofield

I just profiled Museo Portfolio Rag using Paul Roark's 3-MK Eboni  
only workflow using QTR.  Lovely warm tone prints with very good  
detail in landscapes.  Dmax with this workflow, printer (Epson 1800),  
and ink (MIS Eboni) was 1.69.  As John and others have noted ink  
limiting needs to be carefully evaluated with this paper.  There is a  
very fine line between dmax and overloading.

Carl
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Aug 2, 2007, at 3:50 PM, john dean wrote:

> That's what I just said. Limit your black channel or your going to
> loose dmax. It is over inking, just like everyone has been talking
> about here. It is definately going to happen with the ABM Epson driver
> or QTR if you aren't careful and aware of it.
>
> What I like about the paper is that is very smooth and sharp, much
> more so than Photorag for small prints. Premier Art Hotpress is also
> but for some reason it produces a strange reddish or bluish cast
> depending on the inkset used. I hate Premier Art for monochrome. I
> like the color of the Crane PR with sepia inks but I certainly
> wouldn't use it as my primary paper for neutral toned work.
>
> Richard, how is the world are you getting a 1.72 dmax on Photorag with
> that inkset of yours? You must have put some dye in that black
> channel. I've never seen a pure pigment go that high on matte papers
> under the best conditions. The best I can get is 1.69 on a very good
> day. Are you seeing bronzing with your inks on the fiber gloss papers,
> or can one avoid the nasty sprays?
>
> john
>
>
>
>>
>> I was very surprised to find that the 100% patch on the step wedge  
>> was
>> no longer solid black. It looks as if the paper has been overloaded
>> and it's density measures significantly less than the 95% patch. When
>> I checked the calibration strip the highest reading I now get is  
>> 1.57,
>> versus 1.63 before. Also, the points I used to build my curve (i.e.
>> ink limit) has shifted.
>>
>> I went back to some old prints and indeed, they still measure as
>> expected (i.e. my spectro is fine). I tried a new black cartridge and
>> also aligned the printer heads (2200). There was a slight  
>> improvement,
>> but relatively little.
>>
>> Something is out of whack.
>>
>> Terry.
>>
>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Richard  
>> Wolfson"
>> <rw@> wrote:
>>>
>>> I like Crane's Museo Portfolio Rag very much for my black & white
>> printing. Here are some of my Dmax measurements with a few
>> comparisons. Note that I'm using the new GQ2 ink set I designed for
>> Media Street.
>>>
>>> Paper					Dmax	   K limit
>>> Museo Portfolio Rag		1.64		 50%
>>> Hahnemuhle Photo Rag		1.72		100%
>>> Museo Silver Rag
>>>   K = Photo Black Neutral	2.09		 63%
>>>   K = Matte Black			1.77		100%
>>>
>>> I agree with John Dean: you have to limit the inks on Crane's
>> papers, and it is a beautiful paper. Since it has no optical
>> brightener, it is a little warmer (but just a little) than Hahnemuhle
>> Photo Rag.
>>>
>>> Since the GQ2 ink set includes both warm and cold grays in its seven
>> inks, it's easy to adjust how warm the b&w prints should be. I build
>> Cold, Warm, and Neutral profiles, and Roy Harrington's latest
>> QuadToneRIP offers "Split Tone Curve Blending." That makes it easy to
>> blend those three profiles for beautiful platinum prints (warm in the
>> light to mid tones, neutral to cool in the darker tones) on papers
>> like Crane's.
>>>
>>> Richard
>>>
>>> Richard Wolfson
>>> black & white digital printmaker
>>> www.RichardWolfson.com
>>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this outgoing message.
>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.2/931 - Release Date:
>> 8/1/2007 4:53 PM
>>>

RE: [Digital BW] Crane Portfolio Rag DMAX

2007-08-02 by Richard Wolfson

John, thanks, but of course there's NO dye in any GQ2 ink. 

GQ2 is based on the new G8 100% pigment inks Media Street developed for the Epson K3 printers. In fact the MK (matte black) in GQ2 is the same matte black in their G8 ink set. I, too, have been amazed at how good these inks are.

And no, I have not seen bronzing on the fiber gloss papers I've used so far (Crane's Silver Rag and Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl). Part of this may relate to the design of the GLOP ("Gloss Optimizer") which is one of the 7 channels in GQ2. For printing on any gloss, lustre, or fiber-gloss paper I make profiles that put down some glop in the very light areas. 

The other six channels in GQ2 are two blacks (pick one depending on the paper) and four grays (two dark, two light, cold & warm). There's more info under "inks" on my web site.

Richard

Richard Wolfson
black & white digital printmaker
www.RichardWolfson.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of john dean
Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 3:51 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Crane Portfolio Rag DMAX

That's what I just said. Limit your black channel or your going to loose dmax. It is over inking, just like everyone has been talking about here. It is definately going to happen with the ABM Epson driver or QTR if you aren't careful and aware of it. 

What I like about the paper is that is very smooth and sharp, much more so than Photorag for small prints. Premier Art Hotpress is also but for some reason it produces a strange reddish or bluish cast depending on the inkset used. I hate Premier Art for monochrome. I like the color of the Crane PR with sepia inks but I certainly wouldn't use it as my primary paper for neutral toned work.

Richard, how is the world are you getting a 1.72 dmax on Photorag with that inkset of yours? You must have put some dye in that black channel. I've never seen a pure pigment go that high on matte papers under the best conditions. The best I can get is 1.69 on a very good day. Are you seeing bronzing with your inks on the fiber gloss papers, or can one avoid the nasty sprays? 

john


No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.2/931 - Release Date: 8/1/2007 4:53 PM

Re: [Digital BW] Crane Portfolio Rag DMAX

2007-08-03 by Terry Ritz

Yes, the test strip I printed last night on Soft Texture Art did show
over inking. However, it did NOT when I last printed on this paper a
few months ago. That's what has me concerned. The same strip printed a
few months ago using QTR with the same inkset, printer and curve did
NOT over ink and had a higher DMAX. I was careful to limit the black
channel when I originally developed the curve and back then, I was
able to produce properly linearized output ending at a DMAX of 1.63.
Now, the maximum black I can get on the calibration strip is less than
it used to be (down to 1.57) plus the point on the curve where DMAX is
reached is lower.
 
My Portfolio Rag curve has been properly limited (the setting is quite
low actually) and the output properly linearized. The DMAX seems low
to me, although it is no longer that much below what I'm getting with
Soft Texture Art.
 
Terry.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
<deanwork2003@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> That's what I just said. Limit your black channel or your going to
> loose dmax. It is over inking, just like everyone has been talking
> about here. It is definately going to happen with the ABM Epson driver
> or QTR if you aren't careful and aware of it. 
> 
> What I like about the paper is that is very smooth and sharp, much
> more so than Photorag for small prints. Premier Art Hotpress is also
> but for some reason it produces a strange reddish or bluish cast
> depending on the inkset used. I hate Premier Art for monochrome. I
> like the color of the Crane PR with sepia inks but I certainly
> wouldn't use it as my primary paper for neutral toned work.
> 
> Richard, how is the world are you getting a 1.72 dmax on Photorag with
> that inkset of yours? You must have put some dye in that black
> channel. I've never seen a pure pigment go that high on matte papers
> under the best conditions. The best I can get is 1.69 on a very good
> day. Are you seeing bronzing with your inks on the fiber gloss papers,
> or can one avoid the nasty sprays? 
> 
> john

Re: [Digital BW] Crane Portfolio Rag DMAX

2007-08-03 by Terry Ritz

Just curious John. . .  why would you not use Crane PR for neutral work?

Thanks for all your feedback btw.

Terry.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" <deanwork2003@...> 
wrote:

> I like the color of the Crane PR with sepia inks but I certainly
> wouldn't use it as my primary paper for neutral toned work.

Re: [Digital BW] Crane Portfolio Rag DMAX

2007-08-03 by Terry Ritz

Did some more testing and clearly, I was working with a bad cartridge. . . .  

Museo PR - Old K7 Cart 1.54
Museo PR - New K7 Cart 1.60

Innova STA - Old K7 Cart 1.54
Innova STA - New K7 Cart 1.60
Innova STA - Eboni Cart 1.66

HPR - New K7 Cart 1.63
HPR - Eboni 1.68

I tried Eboni as well. I knew it's DMAX was higher than K7, but now I'm wondering how a 
print would look with Eboni for K and Cone K7 inks for the rest?

Terry.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Terry Ritz" <t.ritz@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Yes, the test strip I printed last night on Soft Texture Art did show
> over inking. However, it did NOT when I last printed on this paper a
> few months ago. That's what has me concerned. The same strip printed a
> few months ago using QTR with the same inkset, printer and curve did
> NOT over ink and had a higher DMAX. I was careful to limit the black
> channel when I originally developed the curve and back then, I was
> able to produce properly linearized output ending at a DMAX of 1.63.
> Now, the maximum black I can get on the calibration strip is less than
> it used to be (down to 1.57) plus the point on the curve where DMAX is
> reached is lower.
>  
> My Portfolio Rag curve has been properly limited (the setting is quite
> low actually) and the output properly linearized. The DMAX seems low
> to me, although it is no longer that much below what I'm getting with
> Soft Texture Art.
>  
> Terry.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
> <deanwork2003@> wrote:
> >
> > That's what I just said. Limit your black channel or your going to
> > loose dmax. It is over inking, just like everyone has been talking
> > about here. It is definately going to happen with the ABM Epson driver
> > or QTR if you aren't careful and aware of it. 
> > 
> > What I like about the paper is that is very smooth and sharp, much
> > more so than Photorag for small prints. Premier Art Hotpress is also
> > but for some reason it produces a strange reddish or bluish cast
> > depending on the inkset used. I hate Premier Art for monochrome. I
> > like the color of the Crane PR with sepia inks but I certainly
> > wouldn't use it as my primary paper for neutral toned work.
> > 
> > Richard, how is the world are you getting a 1.72 dmax on Photorag with
> > that inkset of yours? You must have put some dye in that black
> > channel. I've never seen a pure pigment go that high on matte papers
> > under the best conditions. The best I can get is 1.69 on a very good
> > day. Are you seeing bronzing with your inks on the fiber gloss papers,
> > or can one avoid the nasty sprays? 
> > 
> > john
>

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