Digital BW, The Print

Hello, 

I am just sitting down with the HP Z3100. This is my first non Epson 
printer and I'm feeling a little lost. I confess that the whole issue 
of bronzing is an unwelcome surprise that's taking me a back three 
years or more. I was sure that this issue was behind us. The bronzing 
effect on semi gloss and gloss papers without the Gloss Enhance 
option seems extreme to me. I would have to go back as far as the Pro 
Stylus 7500 to get such a radical bronzing effect. Its not just 
restricted to highlight areas but gives a bronze cast to all ink 
densities when viewed at an angle. HP recommends greyscale printing 
using the "standard" preset which appears to impose a "whole page 
gloss enhance" This gloss enhance acts like a varnish or lamination 
which fogs the paper and turns it slightly green. This obviously 
reduces the brilliance of the print and shifts the colour slightly. 
Setting the gloss enhance to Econo mode seems to back it off base 
white and restrict the coating to the image perimeters but still 
covers all densities up to but not including 255.  

Am I missing something or is this primarily an archival matte printer?

eugene

It seems to me to be the elephant in the room.
I was in a situation some months back where a wide variety of
shooters/printers all had work out on a table. There were quite a few
faux silver ink prints laid out on a number of the new papers.
One was mine, done with UCK3PK on the newest Innova F smooth, I
brought it to lay next to the same image made with peizo and Willima
Turner. I worked hard on both, thought they were good, and thought it
would be interesting to consider the attributes of both.
An extraordinary master printer with decades of fine printing of all
kinds walked through the room and glanced at the table. He picked up
my "gloss" print and held it to the light various ways.
Then he put it back down and as he walked from the room he said "why
is that considered acceptable?"

Exactly.

In the years past when I had the opportunity to be around amazing and
demanding artists in workshop situations, everything had to be right.
We were there aspiring to create art after all, and objects that never
distracted you from the experience with some odd quality. Critiques
could be brutal. This would be unacceptable.

For many, it's fine. But to take rank in the top level of fine print
process, it's not there yet.
That's why some great printers like John Dean are doing post surface
treatment, out of the box it's not there yet.

Don't take offense please, I realize that for many it doesn't matter,
for all kinds of reasons, many sound. Some reject the fine art object
paradigm, many have no need for it nor even recognize it.
I just think we have some distance to go for extraordinary results
with ink onto glossier materials, I think the manufacturers should
know some of us are still less than thrilled.

OK, I'm ducking...
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "eappert"
<appert@...> wrote:

>
> Hello, 
> 
> I am just sitting down with the HP Z3100. This is my first non Epson 
> printer and I'm feeling a little lost. I confess that the whole issue 
> of bronzing is an unwelcome surprise that's taking me a back three 
> years or more. I was sure that this issue was behind us. The bronzing 
> effect on semi gloss and gloss papers without the Gloss Enhance 
> option seems extreme to me. I would have to go back as far as the Pro 
> Stylus 7500 to get such a radical bronzing effect. Its not just 
> restricted to highlight areas but gives a bronze cast to all ink 
> densities when viewed at an angle. HP recommends greyscale printing 
> using the "standard" preset which appears to impose a "whole page 
> gloss enhance" This gloss enhance acts like a varnish or lamination 
> which fogs the paper and turns it slightly green. This obviously 
> reduces the brilliance of the print and shifts the colour slightly. 
> Setting the gloss enhance to Econo mode seems to back it off base 
> white and restrict the coating to the image perimeters but still 
> covers all densities up to but not including 255.  
> 
> Am I missing something or is this primarily an archival matte printer?
> 
> eugene
>

Well said, Tyler.

One must decide where one stands (or they'll fall into the river...).


 


Bill Kennedy
K2 Press
Austin, Texas

-----Original Message-----
From: Tyler Boley <tyler@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 12:14 pm
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: the bronze age


















  



    

            
It seems to me to be the elephant in the room.

I was in a situation some months back where a wide variety of

shooters/printers all had work out on a table. There were quite a few

faux silver ink prints laid out on a number of the new papers.

One was mine, done with UCK3PK on the newest Innova F smooth, I

brought it to lay next to the same image made with peizo and Willima

Turner. I worked hard on both, thought they were good, and thought it

would be interesting to consider the attributes of both.

An extraordinary master printer with decades of fine printing of all

kinds walked through the room and glanced at the table. He picked up

my "gloss" print and held it to the light various ways.

Then he put it back down and as he walked from the room he said "why

is that considered acceptable?"



Exactly.



In the years past when I had the opportunity to be around amazing and

demanding artists in workshop situations, everything had to be right.

We were there aspiring to create art after all, and objects that never

distracted you from the experience with some odd quality. Critiques

could be brutal. This would be unacceptable.



For many, it's fine. But to take rank in the top level of fine print

process, it's not there yet.

That's why some great printers like John Dean are doing post surface

treatment, out of the box it's not there yet.



Don't take offense please, I realize that for many it doesn't matter,

for all kinds of reasons, many sound. Some reject the fine art object

paradigm, many have no need for it nor even recognize it.

I just think we have some distance to go for extraordinary results

with ink onto glossier materials, I think the manufacturers should

know some of us are still less than thrilled.



OK, I'm ducking...

Tyler



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "eappert"

<appert@...> wrote:

>

> Hello, 

> 

> I am just sitting down with the HP Z3100. This is my first non Epson 

> printer and I'm feeling a little lost. I confess that the whole issue 

> of bronzing is an unwelcome surprise that's taking me a back three 

> years or more. I was sure that this issue was behind us. The bronzing 

> effect on semi gloss and gloss papers without the Gloss Enhance 

> option seems extreme to me. I would have to go back as far as the Pro 

> Stylus 7500 to get such a radical bronzing effect. Its not just 

> restricted to highlight areas but gives a bronze cast to all ink 

> densities when viewed at an angle. HP recommends greyscale printing 

> using the "standard" preset which appears to impose a "whole page 

> gloss enhance" This gloss enhance acts like a varnish or lamination 

> which fogs the paper and turns it slightly green. This obviously 

> reduces the brilliance of the print and shifts the colour slightly. 

> Setting the gloss enhance to Econo mode seems to back it off base 

> white and restrict the coating to the image perimeters but still 

> covers all densities up to but not including 255.  

> 

> Am I missing something or is this primarily an archival matte printer?

> 

> eugene

>





    
  

    
    








 


________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think we also need some more R&D in the ink department.  Clearly,  
these new faux silver papers just don't cut it with the current  
pigment inks, unless you are willing to carry on with the post  
printing spraying and brushing required to get rid of the last traces  
of bronzing and GD.  UC K3 is getting long in the tooth.  I wish  
Epson would put more effort into advancing the Claria inks, which BTW  
look terrific on the new papers.  I just made some Claria BO prints  
on the new Harman FB Al paper that look great, if you can get past  
the midtone grain.  Really close to a real silver print, but we need  
a Claria LK to keep the midtones smooth and a printer with 7 or 8 ink  
slots.  I'm not that concerned about the longevity issue at the  
moment, given the Wilhelm ratings and the absence (so far) of fading  
or color shifting horror stories.

Carl

On Oct 27, 2007, at 1:14 PM, Tyler Boley wrote:

> It seems to me to be the elephant in the room.
> I was in a situation some months back where a wide variety of
> shooters/printers all had work out on a table. There were quite a few
> faux silver ink prints laid out on a number of the new papers.
> One was mine, done with UCK3PK on the newest Innova F smooth, I
> brought it to lay next to the same image made with peizo and Willima
> Turner. I worked hard on both, thought they were good, and thought it
> would be interesting to consider the attributes of both.
> An extraordinary master printer with decades of fine printing of all
> kinds walked through the room and glanced at the table. He picked up
> my "gloss" print and held it to the light various ways.
> Then he put it back down and as he walked from the room he said "why
> is that considered acceptable?"
>
> Exactly.
>
> In the years past when I had the opportunity to be around amazing and
> demanding artists in workshop situations, everything had to be right.
> We were there aspiring to create art after all, and objects that never
> distracted you from the experience with some odd quality. Critiques
> could be brutal. This would be unacceptable.
>
> For many, it's fine. But to take rank in the top level of fine print
> process, it's not there yet.
> That's why some great printers like John Dean are doing post surface
> treatment, out of the box it's not there yet.
>
> Don't take offense please, I realize that for many it doesn't matter,
> for all kinds of reasons, many sound. Some reject the fine art object
> paradigm, many have no need for it nor even recognize it.
> I just think we have some distance to go for extraordinary results
> with ink onto glossier materials, I think the manufacturers should
> know some of us are still less than thrilled.
>
> OK, I'm ducking...
> Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
<list@...> wrote:
>
> I think we also need some more R&D in the ink department...

I think that's probably right, because it's not only the bronzing or
GD. There's just something about the way these pigments sit right on
the surface instead of being taken in a bit that seems less than elegant.

Not really sure, but it's just not all adding up to 110% yet, after
all it's quite new still.

Bill... where we stand? We'll be standing? Won't there be cots or
something? Lawn chairs perhaps?

Tyler

I understand your augments. I too was trained in the seventies by 
master printers and spent many years perfecting silver printing 
techniques. My question here concerns specifically the HP Z3100 
printer. 

I waited patiently from about 1995 for digital printing technology to 
advance enough to replace the wet darkroom. It has only been since 
ultra chrome K3 and the new PK papers that I have decided to make the 
jump. I am holding a print from my 3800 on Museo Silver rag beside a 
silver gelatine print from exactly the same file (via LVT) .The most 
obvious difference is that light does not enter the paper so the ink 
print seems less "3 dimensional" , this gives the silver print more 
of a creamy brilliance. In all other aspects the two prints are 
indistinguishable to my eye.  I think the Silver Rag black is deeper 
than the silver gelatine black but that the useable shadow 
distinction is higher which produces similar results. Of course we 
all have different levels of scrutiny and critical tolerance. 

I have read a lot of positive commentary concerning the Z3100 and 
after my initial experience I was wondering if its high acclaim was 
exclusively with matte paper. 

Eugene

Guys, It is apparent to me, and I am sure to you, that for quite some time
the driving force behind this has NOTHING to do with fine art printing but
acceptable level out put for the likes of P of PA, etc. If the market was
being driven by fine artist, Lightroom would function for us. Plug ins
wouldn't crash when presented with a file that we use day in and day out,
and prints on paper would come much closer than they do to "matching" our
beloved old friends from the wet side. Papers wouldn't yellow when mounted
on a "standard" archival substrate or they would be marketed as a pair or
new paradigm. 

 

We have being dealing with compromise for years; making the best we can out
of inferior material and methods; some with greater success than others. It
will be a few more years before we have in hand, and practice with, a new
set of materials that truly allow for fine art prints to roll out our doors.


 

Keep the faith brother artists,

 

Eric

 

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street

Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

http://e.neilsen.home.att.net

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

Skype ejprinter

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tyler
Boley
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 1:50 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: the bronze age

 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
<list@...> wrote:
>
> I think we also need some more R&D in the ink department...

I think that's probably right, because it's not only the bronzing or
GD. There's just something about the way these pigments sit right on
the surface instead of being taken in a bit that seems less than elegant.

Not really sure, but it's just not all adding up to 110% yet, after
all it's quite new still.

Bill... where we stand? We'll be standing? Won't there be cots or
something? Lawn chairs perhaps?

Tyler

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"Tyler Boley: Lawn Chair Zen Master."

That sounds pretty good. Through in a beer or six and I'll follow you anywhere...


 


Bill Kennedy
K2 Press
Austin, Texas

-----Original Message-----
From: Tyler Boley <tyler@tylerboley.com>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 1:50 pm
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: the bronze age


















  



    

            
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield

<list@...> wrote:

>

> I think we also need some more R&D in the ink department...



I think that's probably right, because it's not only the bronzing or

GD. There's just something about the way these pigments sit right on

the surface instead of being taken in a bit that seems less than elegant.



Not really sure, but it's just not all adding up to 110% yet, after

all it's quite new still.



Bill... where we stand? We'll be standing? Won't there be cots or

something? Lawn chairs perhaps?



Tyler





    
  

    
    








 


________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Indeed Tyler.

After living with the results from the Ultrachromes in our aging Epson 
for several years already, I naturally expected that our brand new 12 
ink Canon would have the problem licked or at least ameliorated. 
Instead, I was shocked to find that it's almost as bad or even worse.

Let's hope the manufacturers are listening since they not only sell 
technology that doesn't live up to the advance press, they also do 
everything possible to lock out third party and end user solutions.

john castronovo

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tyler Boley"

---snip----
An extraordinary master printer with decades of fine printing of all
kinds walked through the room and glanced at the table. He picked up
my "gloss" print and held it to the light various ways.
Then he put it back down and as he walked from the room he said "why
is that considered acceptable?"

 ----snip-----

I just think we have some distance to go for extraordinary results
with ink onto glossier materials, I think the manufacturers should
know some of us are still less than thrilled.

eappert wrote:
> Hello, 
> 
> I am just sitting down with the HP Z3100. This is my first non Epson 
> printer and I'm feeling a little lost. I confess that the whole issue 
> of bronzing is an unwelcome surprise that's taking me a back three 
> years or more. I was sure that this issue was behind us. The bronzing 
> effect on semi gloss and gloss papers without the Gloss Enhance 
> option seems extreme to me. I would have to go back as far as the Pro 
> Stylus 7500 to get such a radical bronzing effect. Its not just 
> restricted to highlight areas but gives a bronze cast to all ink 
> densities when viewed at an angle. HP recommends greyscale printing 
> using the "standard" preset which appears to impose a "whole page 
> gloss enhance" This gloss enhance acts like a varnish or lamination 
> which fogs the paper and turns it slightly green. This obviously 
> reduces the brilliance of the print and shifts the colour slightly. 
> Setting the gloss enhance to Econo mode seems to back it off base 
> white and restrict the coating to the image perimeters but still 
> covers all densities up to but not including 255.  
> 
> Am I missing something or is this primarily an archival matte printer?
> 
> eugene 

I wouldn't call it primarily an archival matte printer with 
that gloss enhancer aboard. Of the pigment inkjet printers 
available right now it probably is the best solution for 
gloss. Customised dedicated B&W gloss printers with gloss 
enhancer or varnish applied afterwards may be a little better.

The Z3100 is very good with matte papers and B&W. It is very
good with satin and gloss RC papers + the gloss enhancer for
B&W.  It is good with the Fiber Base papers with gloss
enhancer if the paper transport doesn't put its marks on the
coating surface. It gives bronzing and gloss difference
without the gloss enhancer on the gloss and satin papers so one
uses gloss enhancer. The gloss enhancer is not completely
clear but I do not find that a problem on RC papers and not
on the Sihl Fiber Base Baryta (satin). With other printers 
the need to spray or coat an extra varnish layer has been 
discussed enough here and the MIS gloss enhancer as used by 
some in their printers isn't totally clear either.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,  Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

Follow up,

On gloss printing with the Z3100:

On the Wasatch SoftRip 6.2, that I also have, the settings 
for adding GE are far more advanced than what the HP driver 
gives. You can select either full page or image only and 
both in three grades Light-Medium-Heavy and Off of course. 
That separate from the ink limitation + curve that's also 
accessible for that ink channel. There's very little GE 
needed to suppress bronzing.

On the other hand I still have to get/make good color 
profiles for that RIP as the existing ones are not at the HP 
driver level and there's no quad configuration with any of 
the matte papers like the HP driver has. The black channel 
partitioning is simply not accessible like it would be in a 
QTR style RIP.

I do not know what HP has in store on firmware upgrades but 
a bit more of the GE control would be nice. There's a new 
firmware upgrade since a few days but that mainly addresses 
paper transport and feeding issues and the driver that 
belongs to it isn't added right now.

Related:
On gloss and drying: as I understand it the analogue RC 
papers showed a much better gloss when dried with infrared 
dryers like Ilford 1250 etc than air dried or dried with 
non-infrared dryers. Even soaking papers again that were 
dried by other machines showed improved gloss with Ilford 
dryers. Has someone ever used that last method for RC inkjet 
paper ?  My guess is that much of the coating components of 
both types of paper are quite similar and could react the 
same way. The waterfastness of for example the HP ID Premium 
Gloss RC paper could be sufficient to keep the pigments from 
wandering in the image but the proof of the pudding is in 
the eating and I have no Ilford dryer.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,  Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
<tyler@...> wrote:
>
"Some reject the fine art object
paradigm, many have no need for it nor even recognize it."

1) Excellent. That there is a "fine art object paradigm," independent
from photographic concerns is important to recognize. 

2) According to this Group's formal mandate, print quality obsession
is more appropriate here than it would be if this was a "B&W
Photography" Group. 

2) Many have, over time, simply accepted that one or another
photographer was a great printer without seeing more than a few of his
originals. Ansel (I've seen hundreds) is a classic example...many of
his earlier prints were by the standards of the time inferior to those
of his contemporaries, Weston, Avedon, and Penn most obviously in the
thirties/forties. As well, from his sixties era I recall his murals
from Polaroid PN, not to mention his "Hills Brothers" coffee cans :-) 

3) "Master printers" seem sometimes, but only rarely, to be
interesting photographers. However, their renditions of boring images
can be compelling in terms of print quality alone. I wish I had either
 problem.