Digital BW, The Print

Hi all,

Currently I'm using UT3D inks in combination QTR (on an Epson 2100). 
I work on PC and I make my profiles with an Eye-one. I'm very happy 
with this setup in terms of print quality and toning versatility. But 
since I made Lightroom the centerpiece of my workflow (still doing 
the major editing work in PS), I get more and more annoyed by the 
fact I can't print directly from Lightroom. I know there are several 
workarounds (e.g. saving as pdf and then converting to tiff etc.), 
but it's just not convenient.

So for some time I'm considering to sell my Eye One and purchase 
PrintFixPro. Since UT3D is essentially a full spectrum, though low 
saturation, inkset that should allow for color managed work flow with 
all conveniences of it: printing directly from Lightroom, previewing 
toning, spatially different toning. This has been advocated on many 
occaisions here.

But from a private e-mail conversation with one of the group members 
I learned that the UT3D+PFP approach is nice in theory, but that in 
practice it is dissappointing since one loses almost all toning 
potential of UT3D and that prints are always essentially neutral. 
Apparently the color mapping done in PFP clips a large chunk of the 
UT3D gammut. After hearing this, I do recall an earlier remark in 
this group (I think it came from Paul Roark), that indicated 
something likes this, but not as severe as I learned recently.

Any experiences or insights in this? Is this is true indeed, than PFP 
will be no good for me and I'd rather stick with my workarounds.

Joost

I take the liberty to bump this one. No opinions this whatsoever? C. 
David Tobie, I'd expect you will have some first-hand insight in this.

Joost
 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Joost Horsten" 
<j.h.j.h@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> 
> Currently I'm using UT3D inks in combination QTR (on an Epson 
2100). 
> I work on PC and I make my profiles with an Eye-one. I'm very happy 
> with this setup in terms of print quality and toning versatility. 
But 
> since I made Lightroom the centerpiece of my workflow (still doing 
> the major editing work in PS), I get more and more annoyed by the 
> fact I can't print directly from Lightroom. I know there are 
several 
> workarounds (e.g. saving as pdf and then converting to tiff etc.), 
> but it's just not convenient.
> 
> So for some time I'm considering to sell my Eye One and purchase 
> PrintFixPro. Since UT3D is essentially a full spectrum, though low 
> saturation, inkset that should allow for color managed work flow 
with 
> all conveniences of it: printing directly from Lightroom, 
previewing 
> toning, spatially different toning. This has been advocated on many 
> occaisions here.
> 
> But from a private e-mail conversation with one of the group 
members 
> I learned that the UT3D+PFP approach is nice in theory, but that in 
> practice it is dissappointing since one loses almost all toning 
> potential of UT3D and that prints are always essentially neutral. 
> Apparently the color mapping done in PFP clips a large chunk of the 
> UT3D gammut. After hearing this, I do recall an earlier remark in 
> this group (I think it came from Paul Roark), that indicated 
> something likes this, but not as severe as I learned recently.
> 
> Any experiences or insights in this? Is this is true indeed, than 
PFP 

> will be no good for me and I'd rather stick with my workarounds.
> 
> Joost
>

In a message dated 11/30/07 6:17:54 AM, j.h.j.h@... writes:


> I take the liberty to bump this one. No opinions this whatsoever? C.
> David Tobie, I'd expect you will have some first-hand insight in this.
> 

I've answered this one recently, but apparently not here. This has to to with 
specialty B&W inksets, which are typically used with a specialty B&W RIP, 
most commonly QTR. The typical workflow would be to build custom curves for QTR 
using PrintFIX PRO or Spyder3Print to take the measurements and export them to 
QTR or its CreateICC Utility. 

The other option is to build an RGB driver profile totally inside PFP or 
S3Print. That works for me, in what testing I've done, to produce a neutral 
profile, if the combination actually can reach neutral. But the complexity comes in 
with how to tune such a profile for non-neutral printing. Since the gamut is 
tiny, the adjustments the the PFP/S3Print sliders can make are similarly tiny. 
I suspect the best solution, if one choses this rather unusual route, is to 
have the neutral image in RGB in Photoshop, and to use the neutral profile to 
softproof, then to carefully adjust the RGB curves to tint the image. Once you 
get a print with the tonality you want (if you can, so to speak, get there from 
here) that RGB curve set can be imported into PFP/S3Print to make it part of 
the profile. 

All of this is pretty far of the radar in terms of typical PFP/S3Print usage. 
Personally I'd recommend getting a "two grays" printer, leaving the standard 
inkset in it, and printing color as well as B&W from it, using our profiles 
for both, with your choice of printing via the color mode for B&W and tinted B&
W, or the driver's B&W mode, with one of our profiles in either case, though 
the tint is controlled by the driver settings, if you use the driver B&W mode, 
and PFP/S3Print is only used for density control and softproof capablities.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor
CDTobie@...
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3


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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... 
wrote:

Hi David,

Thanks for your comprehensive answer.

> This has to to with 
> specialty B&W inksets, which are typically used with a specialty 
B&W RIP, 
> most commonly QTR. The typical workflow would be to build custom 
curves for QTR 
> using PrintFIX PRO or Spyder3Print to take the measurements and 
export them to 
> QTR or its CreateICC Utility. 

Which is what I currently do.
 
> The other option is to build an RGB driver profile totally inside 
PFP or 
> S3Print. That works for me, in what testing I've done, to produce 
a neutral 
> profile, if the combination actually can reach neutral. But the 
complexity comes in 
> with how to tune such a profile for non-neutral printing. Since 
the gamut is 
> tiny, the adjustments the the PFP/S3Print sliders can make are 
similarly tiny. 
> I suspect the best solution, if one choses this rather unusual 
route, 

As a matter of fact, I recall it was yourself who advocated the 
combination of UT3D and PFP roughly a year ago...

> is to 
> have the neutral image in RGB in Photoshop, and to use the neutral 
profile to 
> softproof, then to carefully adjust the RGB curves to tint the 
image. Once you 
> get a print with the tonality you want (if you can, so to speak, 
get there from 
> here) that RGB curve set can be imported into PFP/S3Print to make 
it part of 
> the profile. 
> 
> All of this is pretty far of the radar in terms of typical 
PFP/S3Print usage. 
> Personally I'd recommend getting a "two grays" printer, leaving 
the standard 
> inkset in it, and printing color as well as B&W from it, using our 
profiles 
> for both, with your choice of printing via the color mode for B&W 
and tinted B&
> W, or the driver's B&W mode, with one of our profiles in either 
case, though 
> the tint is controlled by the driver settings, if you use the 
driver B&W mode, 
> and PFP/S3Print is only used for density control and softproof 
capablities.

... but I accept that further insight can lead to a different 
conclusion now.

Thanks for the explanation. The conclusion is clear: as long as I 
stay with UT3D, or another B&W inkset, I can happily stay with my 
Eye-One.

Regards,

Joost

In a message dated 11/30/07 2:33:17 PM, j.h.j.h@... writes:

> 
> Thanks for the explanation. The conclusion is clear: as long as I
> stay with UT3D, or another B&W inkset, I can happily stay with my
> Eye-One.
> 
Yes, there are some places where Spyder3Print offers advantages over other 
available options, but for working with third party grayscale inksets, one 
patchreader or the other will get you pretty much the same result.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor
CDTobie@...
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3



**************************************
Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest 
products.

(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)


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