Digital BW, The Print

Hi.

I had a post a week ago where I got some info for 3MK with the R1800,
well.. now the r1800 has disappeared from the market here in Norway so
I'm looking at other solutions for good A3+ BW printing.. 
The closest to the 100% carbon approach of the R1800 seems to be UT-3D 
with R2400, but I have a few questions..

Initially, could the UT-3D approach be too difficult for a beginner?


Which inks are necessary to buy for BW only? And, can I use UT-3D
Eboni, LK, LLK with the epson color inks for color printing, with 
good results?

There are no ICC's and curves for the paper I'll be using (permajet
delta matt fibre, at least at first), will I still be able to get 
acceptable results?


Thanks,
Espen

Hi Espen,

>... now the r1800 has disappeared from the market here in Norway

I have not seen enough information on the new replacement -- the 1900 -- to
know if it uses the same carts of if Epson has gone to a new cart type that
is not available.  Note also that the pending Epson case over here may make
it harder to buy any Epson-compatible cartridges from MIS.  I'm not sure if
they will ship anything.

>so I'm looking at other solutions for good A3+ BW printing..
>The closest to the 100% carbon approach of the R1800 seems to 
>be UT-3D with R2400,

It's not really very close.  The concept of the 1800 3-MK and other 100%
carbon approaches (Eboni-6 now in my 7500 -- see
http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/Eboni-5.pdf ) is to get rid of the color
inks entirely.  The 2400 with the 3D inkset does not do it.


>Initially, could the UT-3D approach be too difficult for a beginner?

I originally designed the 3D to be a very small gamut B&W inkset that would
allow control of both the Lab A and B axis, within what I thought was the
"sweet spot" of the B&W tones and also allow software profiling.  I
originally called it the UT-6 inkset, because it was aimed at hextone
printers.  It also worked quite well on the 2200/2100.  At the time MIS had
a gap in it's products -- nothing for the 2400.  So, I tried it in the 2400.
It sort of worked, but barely.  Software profiling with the ColorVision
PrintFixPro will be able to give a reasonable neutral print, but for manual
profiling, which is needed for very accurate neutrals or tones outside the
neutral range, the LLK interferes so much with the underlying hextone inkset
that I just cannot recommend the 3D inkset for the 2400.

An alternative for the 2400 that is far easier and flexible, and
accomplishes the goal of getting the excess color (not all color) out of the
2400 B&W image is to simply put a light carbon ink  in the yellow spot and
use the Epson ABW mode for tone control (plus, perhaps the QTR Create ICC
for linearization).  See http://www.paulroark.com/BW-Info/2400.pdf

>... can I use UT-3D Eboni, LK, LLK with the epson color inks for
> color printing, with good results?

The 3D LK and LLK are not the same tone as the Epson or even MIS standard LK
and LLK.  So, you would probably not be able to use standard profiles and
get good colors.  The 2400 Y = Carbon approach allows you to just change the
Y-position ink and be at a full color inkset -- much easier.

> ... I'll be using (permajet delta matt fibre, at least at first)...

That's an Innova coating.  They all profile about the same.  So, which ever
route you go, find a profile for any Innova paper.  I recommend taking an
approach that allows you to make your own profiles easily.  The 2400 with
the Y=Carbon (for example MIS EZ-W) works best.  Note that I found the Epson
C86-88 yellow chip worked in the 2400 yellow spot.

Good luck with the B&W.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "espen.aasheim" 
<princemild@...> wrote:
>
> Hi.
> 
> I had a post a week ago where I got some info for 3MK with the 
R1800,
> well.. now the r1800 has disappeared from the market here in Norway

Strange, I'm always under the impression that these things go mor or 
less continent by continent. here in the Netherlands it seems to be 
 for sale on regular basis...

> I'm looking at other solutions for good A3+ BW printing.. 
> The closest to the 100% carbon approach of the R1800 seems to be 
UT-3D 
> with R2400, but I have a few questions..
> 
> Initially, could the UT-3D approach be too difficult for a 
beginner?

The key question in this is how you drive the printer, via the Epson 
driver or via a RIP (such a QTR).

The R2400 is a very versatile machine and allows for both 
approaches. It makes very good B&W prints right out of the box with 
OEM K3 inks with the standard driver and is easy to use. Toning can 
be influenced easily as well. One can print directly from any 
application. And it can still color. On the negative side: as it 
uses some yellow the archival quality is less than other approaches. 
OEM inks are expensive. 

To address the archive issue it has been proposed here earlier to 
replace the yellow with a very light carbon (MIS EZW). Ink cost can 
be reduced by using bulk ink.

The 3MK/R1800 is more or less the opposite approach: just pure 
carbon, so the highest possible archival quality. You need to buy 
only one ink in bulk (Eboni) so ink is cheap. On the negative side: 
no toning possibility (except for different paper choice) and you 
need a RIP to print. 

I'm using UT3D myself (on a 2100), driving it with QTR. To my 
feeling this approach is somewhere in between the two above: very 
good archival quality (less then pure carbon, better than color 
inks), very good toning flexiblity. If you're prepared to work with 
a RIP, as I think you are as you are considering a 3MK approach, 
than UT3D is a fairly simple ink set. All toning difficulties are 
solved within the ink set, so one has mainly to address density. I 
ususally start making a warm curve, which takes some time. But then 
the cool and selenium curves are simple derivatives. When I started 
18 months ago I found the most difficult part to get the workflow 
with QTR right, but that is not much different for whatever ink set 
is used.

UT3D allows also for a totally different workflow. As it is a full 
spectrum, low gamut inkset it can be treated as a color ink set. In 
theory PrintFixPro supports this. That would actually be very 
simple. But see my recent posting on this topic. My information is 
that the toning capabilities of UT3D are much restricted by PFP.

> 
> Which inks are necessary to buy for BW only? And, can I use UT-3D
> Eboni, LK, LLK with the epson color inks for color printing, with 
> good results?

For a neutral BW print one needs Eboni, (warm) LK, (warm) LLK, cool 
LK and cool LLK. This is needed since LK and LLK are not neutral but 
quite warm inks. For a full spectrum one need the selenium toner as 
well. For use in a color work the neutral LK is needed as well. So 
there's no way you can combine this with a full gamut color inkset.
> 
> There are no ICC's and curves for the paper I'll be using (permajet
> delta matt fibre, at least at first), will I still be able to get 
> acceptable results?

For good results you need icc-profiles or QTR curves. If they don't 
exist you have to make them. I you don't want to, better restrict 
yourself to papers that are profiled.

Success,

Joost

> 
> 
> Thanks,
> Espen
>

Hi Espen,

I wrote my reply in two parts, separated by dinner ;-), and after 
posting I saw that Paul, our guru, already replied. So whatever info 
may be conflicting, please take Paul's word :-)

Joost


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Joost Horsten" 
<j.h.j.h@...> wrote:
>
> --- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "espen.aasheim" 
> <princemild@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi.
> > 
> > I had a post a week ago where I got some info for 3MK with the 
> R1800,
> > well.. now the r1800 has disappeared from the market here in 
Norway
> 
> Strange, I'm always under the impression that these things go mor 
or 
> less continent by continent. here in the Netherlands it seems to 
be 
>  for sale on regular basis...
> 
> > I'm looking at other solutions for good A3+ BW printing.. 
> > The closest to the 100% carbon approach of the R1800 seems to be 
> UT-3D 
> > with R2400, but I have a few questions..
> > 
> > Initially, could the UT-3D approach be too difficult for a 
> beginner?
> 
> The key question in this is how you drive the printer, via the 
Epson 
> driver or via a RIP (such a QTR).
> 
> The R2400 is a very versatile machine and allows for both 
> approaches. It makes very good B&W prints right out of the box 
with 
> OEM K3 inks with the standard driver and is easy to use. Toning 
can 
> be influenced easily as well. One can print directly from any 
> application. And it can still color. On the negative side: as it 
> uses some yellow the archival quality is less than other 
approaches. 
> OEM inks are expensive. 
> 
> To address the archive issue it has been proposed here earlier to 
> replace the yellow with a very light carbon (MIS EZW). Ink cost 
can 
> be reduced by using bulk ink.
> 
> The 3MK/R1800 is more or less the opposite approach: just pure 
> carbon, so the highest possible archival quality. You need to buy 
> only one ink in bulk (Eboni) so ink is cheap. On the negative 
side: 
> no toning possibility (except for different paper choice) and you 
> need a RIP to print. 
> 
> I'm using UT3D myself (on a 2100), driving it with QTR. To my 
> feeling this approach is somewhere in between the two above: very 
> good archival quality (less then pure carbon, better than color 
> inks), very good toning flexiblity. If you're prepared to work 
with 
> a RIP, as I think you are as you are considering a 3MK approach, 
> than UT3D is a fairly simple ink set. All toning difficulties are 
> solved within the ink set, so one has mainly to address density. I 
> ususally start making a warm curve, which takes some time. But 
then 
> the cool and selenium curves are simple derivatives. When I 
started 
> 18 months ago I found the most difficult part to get the workflow 
> with QTR right, but that is not much different for whatever ink 
set 
> is used.
> 
> UT3D allows also for a totally different workflow. As it is a full 
> spectrum, low gamut inkset it can be treated as a color ink set. 
In 
> theory PrintFixPro supports this. That would actually be very 
> simple. But see my recent posting on this topic. My information is 
> that the toning capabilities of UT3D are much restricted by PFP.
> 
> > 
> > Which inks are necessary to buy for BW only? And, can I use UT-3D
> > Eboni, LK, LLK with the epson color inks for color printing, 
with 
> > good results?
> 
> For a neutral BW print one needs Eboni, (warm) LK, (warm) LLK, 
cool 
> LK and cool LLK. This is needed since LK and LLK are not neutral 
but 
> quite warm inks. For a full spectrum one need the selenium toner 
as 
> well. For use in a color work the neutral LK is needed as well. So 
> there's no way you can combine this with a full gamut color inkset.
> > 
> > There are no ICC's and curves for the paper I'll be using 
(permajet
> > delta matt fibre, at least at first), will I still be able to 
get 
> > acceptable results?
> 
> For good results you need icc-profiles or QTR curves. If they 
don't 

> exist you have to make them. I you don't want to, better restrict 
> yourself to papers that are profiled.
> 
> Success,
> 
> Joost
> 
> > 
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Espen
> >
>

Hi Joost,

>... our guru,...

No, just a habitual hacker.

Actually, you raised a good point.  I was talking about the Epson driver and
ICC or curves approach being disappointing.  With QTR the system will work
very well.  I'm not sure how many QTR profiles exist for the system.  So,
that is an issue someone just starting out with digital would want to look
into.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Joost and Paul, thank you very much for taking the time to answer my
questions. 


The best thing happened; I found a 1800, in Sweden, and they 
would ship it to Norway. So I'm back with the 100% carbon, which was 
the idea to begin with.. I had actually bought 2 sets of 3 carts with
Eboni already so I'll be ready when the printer arrives. I'll have to
get hold of some good empty carts somewhere though.

Again, thanks for the insights.


espen