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Desert Varnish Spray

Desert Varnish Spray

2007-12-22 by Richard Smallfield

Hi,
I wondered if anyone could voice an opinion of this spray. I've used Lyson Print Guard, which didn't change the appearance of the print at all, but the fumes are appalling.

I might be tempted to change if this spray is less obnoxious or more protective.

Thanks,
Richard
--
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Re: [Digital BW] Desert Varnish Spray

2007-12-22 by atodzia@cox.net

Desert Varnish is the same spray.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:02:38 +1300, you wrote:

>Hi,
>I wondered if anyone could voice an opinion of this spray. I've used Lyson Print Guard, which didn't change the appearance of the print at all, but the fumes are appalling.
>
>I might be tempted to change if this spray is less obnoxious or more protective.
>
>Thanks,
>Richard

Re: [Digital BW] Desert Varnish Spray

2007-12-22 by john dean

And now Hahnemuhle has a uv spray that looks and applies exactly like
Premiere Art. They even have the same new spray nozzles which are
sputtery in my opionion and inferior to the original Premier Art
nozzles that were very smooth. It woudn't surprise me if they came
from the same factory with different labels. The Lascaux and Lyson
nozzles are better.

They both work great in eliminating bronzing on the fiber gloss papers
like Innova, but I'm ready for a printer that doesn't require this
toxic mess. Like a real glop channel, Epson, is that too much to ask?
I've spent way too much money on that expensive uv spray.

john





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, atodzia@... wrote:
>
> Desert Varnish is the same spray.
> 
> On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:02:38 +1300, you wrote:
> 
> >Hi,
> >I wondered if anyone could voice an opinion of this spray. I've
used Lyson Print Guard, which didn't change the appearance of the
print at all, but the fumes are appalling.
> >
> >I might be tempted to change if this spray is less obnoxious or
more protective.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Richard
>

Re: [Digital BW] Desert Varnish Spray

2007-12-22 by atodzia@cox.net

Definitely stay away from the cans with the small spray nozzles (new,
according to Premier). You will ruin a lot of prints with the new, as
John calls it - "sputtery" non-reliable nozzles.  The good nozzles are
white and have a round base that hides the nozzle stem.

I returned a case of Premier Print Shield with the new nozzles and the
way they handled the whole mess left me thinking that I will stay away
from this companies products in the future.  I believe Lyson and
Desert Varnish may still be using the better nozzles.

Andy
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 15:59:24 -0000, you wrote:

>And now Hahnemuhle has a uv spray that looks and applies exactly like
>Premiere Art. They even have the same new spray nozzles which are
>sputtery in my opionion and inferior to the original Premier Art
>nozzles that were very smooth. It woudn't surprise me if they came
>from the same factory with different labels. The Lascaux and Lyson
>nozzles are better.
>
>They both work great in eliminating bronzing on the fiber gloss papers
>like Innova, but I'm ready for a printer that doesn't require this
>toxic mess. Like a real glop channel, Epson, is that too much to ask?
>I've spent way too much money on that expensive uv spray.
>
>john
>
>
>
>
>
>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, atodzia@... wrote:
>>
>> Desert Varnish is the same spray.
>> 
>> On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:02:38 +1300, you wrote:
>> 
>> >Hi,
>> >I wondered if anyone could voice an opinion of this spray. I've
>used Lyson Print Guard, which didn't change the appearance of the
>print at all, but the fumes are appalling.
>> >
>> >I might be tempted to change if this spray is less obnoxious or
>more protective.
>> >
>> >Thanks,
>> >Richard
>>
>

Re: [Digital BW] Desert Varnish Spray

2007-12-22 by john dean

Right. But the problem for me is the only brand that has been tested
in accelerated tests by an outside source is Premiere Art. Why is it
that Henry only tests that brand while Lyson was around for years
before?j That's a good question. They could very well all be the same
exact formula but how are we going to know?

john

Re: [Digital BW] Desert Varnish Spray

2007-12-22 by atodzia@cox.net

Most of these sprays come out of the same factory and have different
labels put on them..
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 17:23:52 -0000, you wrote:

>Right. But the problem for me is the only brand that has been tested
>in accelerated tests by an outside source is Premiere Art. Why is it
>that Henry only tests that brand while Lyson was around for years
>before?j That's a good question. They could very well all be the same
>exact formula but how are we going to know?
>
>john

Re: [Digital BW] Desert Varnish Spray

2007-12-22 by Richard Smallfield

I had a can of Schminke Fixative that didn't smell as bad as the Lyson but it had spattery nozzles too.

BTW happy xmas,
Richard

At 06:23 AM Sunday 12/23/2007, you wrote:
>Right. But the problem for me is the only brand that has been tested
>in accelerated tests by an outside source is Premiere Art. Why is it
>that Henry only tests that brand while Lyson was around for years
>before?j That's a good question. They could very well all be the same
>exact formula but how are we going to know?

--
Backroads Essay:
http://picasaweb.google.com/rsmallfield/TheBackroadsOfWarkworth
Greeting Cards available for purchase:
http://picasaweb.google.com/rsmallfield/GreetingCards
http://photos.smallfield.vze.com
http://smallfield.vze.com

   "Not only is there no God, but try finding a plumber on Sunday." 
   --Woody Allen (1935-)

Re: [Digital BW] Desert Varnish Spray

2007-12-22 by Eugene Coggins

John:

Henry does not run a charity. He runs a profit making corporation. 
You want something tested - you pay for it. Maybe Lyson didn't wish 
to PAY for the tests and the posting of the results.
Gene
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>Why is it that Henry only tests that brand while Lyson was around for years
>before?
>john
>

Re: [Digital BW] Desert Varnish Spray

2007-12-22 by john dean

Hey, I agree with you. I'm one of Wilhelm's most dilignet supporters
around here and get ribbed for doing it all the time. I also agree
that Lyson has been extremely sloppy when it comes to publishing
realistic fade data over the years (among other things).

There was also talk that Henry helped Premier Art develop this spray
in the beginning. Maybe. What buggs the hell out of me though is the
the not knowing if all these products are the same or if Premiere Art
has a superior formulation (or not). There is absolutely no way to
tell. I also don't know if Henry is even interested in testing other
uv sprays and laquers and would take that on with various inksets.
Epson is committed to Premier Art now and may well have even invested
in it financially. Who knows. They produce papers for them like
Ultrasmooth FA. 

In a related note, there may very well be some liquid laminates that
can be used in in low pressure spray systems that give amazing results
well beyond Premier Art and Lyson, that are only now being used with
canvas products. We just don't know. He doesn't comment about any of
that in his published statements that I'm aware of other than to say
that post coating and keep prints behind glass doubles their life at a
minimum. To me is seems a huge part of this research and Premier Art
is the only one refered to. I also wonder about thermal laminates and
how they rate. Most of the information about them is rumor at best.  

John




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Eugene Coggins
<elcoggins@...> wrote:
>
> John:
> 
> Henry does not run a charity. He runs a profit making corporation. 
> You want something tested - you pay for it. Maybe Lyson didn't wish 
> to PAY for the tests and the posting of the results.
> Gene
> 
> >Why is it that Henry only tests that brand while Lyson was around
for years
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> >before?
> >john
> >
>

Re: [Digital BW] Desert Varnish Spray

2007-12-22 by James Irelan

>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Eugene Coggins
> <elcoggins@...> wrote:
> >
> > John:
> >
> > Henry does not run a charity. He runs a profit making corporation.
> > You want something tested - you pay for it. Maybe Lyson didn't wish
> > to PAY for the tests and the posting of the results.
> > Gene
>


It wouldn't surprise me if Lyson COULDN'T pay for Wilhelm.  During  
the time that their Cave Paints were killing my 7600, I had so many  
converations with them that I was on first name basis with them.   
(And I have to give them credit for really doing everything they  
could.  I can't fault their efforts to try to help.)  But the  
impression I got was that they were basically two guys in a suite in  
an industrial park.  This was the US office.  At any given time one  
or both of them were out of the office, and there was no one else to  
talk to.  Maybe their UK headquarters is a bigger concern, but it is  
hard for me to picture Lyson, at least from my US experience, as  
being a big enough player to afford Wilhelm testing all their  
products. Actually, that's all Oriental was, too.  I once drove up  
from San Diego to Irvine to pick up their VC printing head from  
Oriental, and it was just that- a couple of guys in an industrial  
park, one of whom was Al Belson, now also passed on.  And it wasn't  
too many years after that that Oriental was gone.

James Irelan

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Desert Varnish Spray

2007-12-22 by john dean

Lyson is a pretty big outfit in England and from what I can gather is
primarily in the solvent ink business for the textile industry. Their
Chicago outfit was like you say,  a small marketing division.
john
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> It wouldn't surprise me if Lyson COULDN'T pay for Wilhelm.  During  
> the time that their Cave Paints were killing my 7600, I had so many  
> converations with them that I was on first name basis with them.   
> (And I have to give them credit for really doing everything they  
> could.  I can't fault their efforts to try to help.)  But the  
> impression I got was that they were basically two guys in a suite in  
> an industrial park.  This was the US office.  At any given time one  
> or both of them were out of the office, and there was no one else to  
> talk to.  Maybe their UK headquarters is a bigger concern, but it is  
> hard for me to picture Lyson, at least from my US experience, as  
> being a big enough player to afford Wilhelm testing all their  
> products. Actually, that's all Oriental was, too.  I once drove up  
> from San Diego to Irvine to pick up their VC printing head from  
> Oriental, and it was just that- a couple of guys in an industrial  
> park, one of whom was Al Belson, now also passed on.  And it wasn't  
> too many years after that that Oriental was gone.
> 
> James Irelan
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

RE: [Digital BW] Desert Varnish Spray

2007-12-22 by Paul Roark

>... one of Wilhelm's ... supporters

Add me to that list.  It's so much better than nothing, as long as we know
the conditions of the tests and, for example, that the manufacturer decides
what tests get published -- thus no bad results.

> There was also talk that Henry helped Premier Art develop 
> this spray in the beginning. Maybe. 

And maybe there was a friendship or the like.  Perhaps the principals have
the same concerns for longevity and have been working together and with
other like minded people for a long time.

>... the not knowing if all these products are the same ...

I think same factory produces many of the canned sprays that use the same
can, but are made to different formulas and specifications.  I definitely
have tested different companies' sprays that were in the same type of can
and found them different. 

> or if Premiere Art has a superior formulation (or not). 
> There is absolutely no way to tell.

We can obtain some information just by easy fade testing.  I've done some
and found different fade rates and yellowing of some products.  With a
spectro you can detect these things with just a few hundred hours of
exposure.  

The very long term problems are almost impossible to test, however.  We see
a lot a fade testing because it is easy.  Long term accelerated age testing
is really crude in comparison.  So, here, I give more weight to history.
Most varnishes have yellowed.  That is the problem with almost anything with
a benzene ring in it -- UV breaks them and that causes the yellowing.  That
is how I ended up with the "aliphatic" (straight line instead of the usual
aromatic ring structure) polyurethane for my water-based coating
experiments.  Unfortunately, even aliphatic epoxy yellows.  Almost all of
the natural varnishes have the yellowing problem. (I'm not a chemist and
would appreciate any corrections to the above.) 

Acrylics (e.g., the Rohm & Haas B72 in Lascaux) have a great reputation for
non-yellowing as far as I can tell.

Even though my tests show no yellowing with Print Shield, I like to see a
Wilhelm test, as, for sure, will customers.

> ... Epson is committed to Premier Art 

Don't you think they are just a customer?  I think Premier Art developed the
UltraSmooth paper, but I believe PA is just one of many suppliers.  I
suspect Epson (and I) like working with Premier Imaging (aka Premier Art or
PA by me in profiles, for example) because we get good products and straight
talk from the people there.

>... there may very well be some liquid laminates ...
> give amazing results ...

I think so also.  Some of the coated matte prints are about the best I've
seen.  The carbon is embedded under a coating so that it's very well
protected from at least physical abrasion.  One of the highest dmax's I've
measured is from a (matte) print on Arches Hot Press (uncoated) that had a
water-based polyurethane coating on it.  (The rest of the test was a bust --
I couldn't deal with the tiny paper fibers sticking out of the image.)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Desert Varnish Spray

2007-12-22 by James Irelan

On Dec 22, 2007, at 4:37 PM, john dean wrote:

> Lyson is a pretty big outfit in England and from what I can gather is
> primarily in the solvent ink business for the textile industry. Their
> Chicago outfit was like you say, a small marketing division.
> john.
>

Yes, that's the impression I got.

James
>
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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