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Search For Best Non-OBA Matte Paper

Search For Best Non-OBA Matte Paper

2008-01-11 by Clayton Jones

Hello All,

I've been using mostly VFA for a long time because it has great dmax,
depth, richness, etc., really gorgeous paper.  But it's so white it's
hard to find mat board for it.  I have an on-going project selling
matted prints at a gift shop, and the recent non-OBA paper threads got
my curiosity up so I've been searching for the best non-OBA matte
paper for K3 inks (my earlier paper tests were with Eboni - there's
quite a difference - see my other post on Eboni/K3 differences).  The
main ingredient of "best" for me is dmax, followed by other things.  I
would like a paper on which my prints can hold their own with the VFA
prints.

Paul suggested I try Premier Fine Art Hot Press 270 (PFA) so I got
some and gave it a test run.  An important part of this test was the
availability of an accurate dmax reading with a densitometer a friend
now has and has graciously offered to read my test prints.  

I ended up not liking PFA very much, but found one I like better in
Innova's Soft Texture Art (STA).  First thing was dmax.  With K3 ink,
VFA dmax is 1.75 (I think the best matte paper dmax I've heard of), so
that's my baseline for comparison.  PFA is 1.61 and STA is 1.66.  I
also tried Merlin Natural (1.55) and Museo max (no number yet but
looks slightly less than PFA and has the sheen problem mentioned below).

Here some other observations about PFA:

- hard to feed into printer, STA feeds much easier (maybe the rollers
can't grab the smooth surface...)

- burnishes and scuffs easily, even after extended drying.  Large
black area had a nice shiny roller mark.  STA had no such problems.

- black areas have a reflective sheen at certain angles which has the
effect of looking like very weak dmax.  STA print does not do this.

- bad low end shadow compression; difficult to correct, with most
efforts weakening the dark areas even more.  STA has very nice shadow
separation, plus better dmax to start with, so is much easier and
more satisfying to work with.)

- requires long drying time before evaluation can take place, with
dmax looking best after 4 to 5 hours.

- doesn't take K3 inks as easily.  Spent more time correcting for
color casts to get a convincing photographic look, was never fully
satisfied.  STA handled this much more easily.  

- is a nice bright paper, hard smooth surface.  STA is medium
textured, similar to VFA (Innova also has Cold Press Art, all else the
same but with heavy texture)

- Print looked a bit flat and lifeless compared to STA version (same
for Museo Max, BTW).  STA version has a 3-dimentionality and richness
that resembles VFA.  This is a very subtle thing, maybe not an issue
for some but I'm sensitive to it.  PFA made a nice looking print, but
the STA and VFA versions look better to me.

- Much cheaper than VFA, STA in between
 VFA at Atlex = $24.88/20 -> 1.25/sheet
 PFA at Atlex = $16.65/25 -> 0.67/sheet
 STA at Shades = $20.49/25 -> 0.82/sheet

STA is a tiny bit warmer in color than PFA, but both look good with BW
Westminster rag board.
>---------------------------------------------------------

Bottom line for me was STA was much easier to work with (printer feed,
open shadows, great K3 response, faster dryup time), made better
looking prints (dmax, depth, richness), and was more durable (no
roller marks, scuffing, burnishing).  With PFA I always felt the paper
was fighting me.  STA felt like a long-time good friend helping me to
do the work.

The STA prints don't have quite the dmax punch of VFA, but the prints
still look great.  The warmer paper tone adds a richness that VFA
lacks.  I think it will be good for this project.  I've ordered some
and will report back after some time with it.

So far, having tried PFA, Museo Max and Merlin Smooth (and with
Richard Smallfield reporting that Condor Natural has poor dmax),
Innova's STA is the only one that even comes close to competing with
VFA.  If anyone has any other non-OBA matte paper they think I should
try please contact me.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: Search For Best Non-OBA Matte Paper

2008-01-11 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" <cj@...> wrote:
>
...

> So far, having tried PFA, Museo Max and Merlin Smooth (and with
> Richard Smallfield reporting that Condor Natural has poor dmax),
> Innova's STA is the only one that even comes close to competing with
> VFA.  If anyone has any other non-OBA matte paper they think I should
> try please contact me.

Perhaps Museum Etching, lovely paper. But the Innova you've discovered is very nice and 
hard to beat. It may not be 100% rag, but I'm not sure that's as big a deal as some think.

Tyler

Re: Search For Best Non-OBA Matte Paper

2008-01-11 by Clayton Jones

Hello Tyler,

>Perhaps Museum Etching, lovely paper. But the Innova you've
>discovered is very nice and hard to beat. 

Someone suggested I try it (my apology for forgetting to mention it)
but it's so expensive I hesitate to buy a box.  If anyone can send me
a couple of sheets I'd be happy to pay the costs.


>It may not be 100% rag, but I'm not 
>sure that's as big a deal as some think.

After my research and interviews with several paper makers and
vendors, the modern alpha-cellulose papers are not a concern for me. 
They say that with today's technology it's just as long lasting as
cotton.  This Innova paper feels just like a cotton paper, really nice
and luxurious.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: Search For Best Non-OBA Matte Paper

2008-01-11 by met.graphix

> VFA.  If anyone has any other non-OBA matte paper they think I should
> try please contact me.

You should try Entrada Natural. I get about 1.68 with Ebony. Very nice 
paper, though a bit on the warm side.

Dario

Re: [Digital BW] Digital papers/printing 101

2008-01-11 by AnnMarie Tornabene

Dear kind people here:

Can you please make a list of the acronyms and abbreviations on here  
and their definitions so the newbies, like me, can understand what  
you mean? It would be very helpful! I would be willing to print it  
out for reference ;)

Example: VFA = Velvet Fine Art


Thank you kindly!
AnnMarie




AnnMarie Tornabene
www.annmarietornabene.net





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Search For Best Non-OBA Matte Paper

2008-01-11 by Louis Dina

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "met.graphix" 
<metgraphix@...> wrote:

> You should try Entrada Natural. I get about 1.68 with Ebony. Very 
nice 
> paper, though a bit on the warm side.
> 
> Dario
>

Agreed. Entrada Natural measures 98.1L, -0.4a, 2.7b, so it is fairly 
bright and slightly warm.  Nice paper, good Dmax and color gamut, and 
coated 2 sides.

Lou

Re:Search For Best Non-OBA Matte Paper

2008-01-11 by El Estudio

Hi Clayton,

I use Innova STA and yes, it's a beautiful paper to
handle, but I would agree with Tyler. Try the Museum
Etching, it really is a lovely paper with very good
dmax and no scuffing (that I've noticed). I don't have
any numbers but I'm sure you wont be dissappointed.
I've been using it and I really like it!

Pablo


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?  
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Re: Search For Best Non-OBA Matte Paper

2008-01-11 by pr_roark

>
> "Clayton Jones" cj@ wrote:

> ...
> > Innova's STA is the only one that even comes close to competing with
> > VFA. If anyone has any other non-OBA matte paper they think I should
> > try please contact me.


<tyler@...> wrote:

> Perhaps Museum Etching, lovely paper. But the Innova you've discovered

>is very nice and  hard to beat. It may not be 100% rag, but

>I'm not sure that's as big a deal as some think.


The PermaJet version of the Innova Soft Texture, which they called
"Alpha" (why?), has a cotton base and was my paper of choice for some
time.   When PermaJet left the U.S. market MIS started to package the
Innova alpha-cellulose version, continuing to use a name that included
"Alpha."  I found that the alpha cellulose version was more prone to
overloading and blotchiness if -- but only if -- very dilute inks were
used.  This will be very dependent on which inkset is used.  With most
inksets, it's going to be a very nice paper and reasonably priced.

By the way, the Premier Art Hot Press line of papers has a marginal dmax
(low 1.60's) only with the 205 weight (the Epson Scrapbook paper).  The
270 and 325 weights should hit the high 1.60s.  They may have the
highest dmax of non-OBA papers that I've used.

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.PaulRoark.com>







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Search For Best Non-OBA Matte Paper

2008-01-11 by Clayton Jones

Hello Gabriel,

>Did you try with the Museo Silver rag?

Yes I have, but am limiting this current search to matte papers. 
Thanks for the tip though.  SR is a popular paper.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: Search For Best Non-OBA Matte Paper

2008-01-11 by Clayton Jones

Hello Dario,

>You should try Entrada Natural. I get about 1.68 with Ebony. Very nice 
>paper, though a bit on the warm side.

I was never much impressed with the regular Entrada, even after they
"improved" it.  I'm also testing with K3, does anyone have a reading
for that?  If the natural is much better I'd be willing to test
it. Can anyone send me a couple of sheets?  I'm happy to pay the costs.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re:Search For Best Non-OBA Matte Paper

2008-01-11 by Clayton Jones

Thanks Pablo,

> I use Innova STA and yes, it's a beautiful paper to
> handle, but I would agree with Tyler. Try the Museum
> Etching, it really is a lovely paper with very good
> dmax and no scuffing (that I've noticed). I don't have
> any numbers but I'm sure you wont be dissappointed.
> I've been using it and I really like it!

I just received an offer to send me some samples, so I hope to have
some in hand soon.  You guys are making me eager to try it.  Why is it
so expensive???


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: Search For Best Non-OBA Matte Paper

2008-01-11 by gvalansi

Hy Clayton:

Wich glossy or semiglossy fiber art paper you would recomend to me to get the best d-mx 
and the widest gray range?
thanks!

Gabriel


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" <cj@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Hello Gabriel,
> 
> >Did you try with the Museo Silver rag?
> 
> Yes I have, but am limiting this current search to matte papers. 
> Thanks for the tip though.  SR is a popular paper.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

Re: Search For Best Non-OBA Matte Paper

2008-01-11 by Clayton Jones

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "gvalansi"
<gvalansi@...> wrote:

>Wich glossy or semiglossy fiber art paper you would recomend to me 
>to get the best d-mx and the widest gray range?

Sorry, I don't have enough experience with them to say.  Except for
brief tests on a few of these I have used only matte papers.

There is another current thread about "paper comparisons" that is
discussing those papers.  The post that started it gives an
interesting overview that may be helpful.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: Search For Best Non-OBA Matte Paper

2008-01-11 by gvalansi

Thanks!

Gabriel

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones" <cj@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "gvalansi"
> <gvalansi@> wrote:
> 
> >Wich glossy or semiglossy fiber art paper you would recomend to me 
> >to get the best d-mx and the widest gray range?
> 
> Sorry, I don't have enough experience with them to say.  Except for
> brief tests on a few of these I have used only matte papers.
> 
> There is another current thread about "paper comparisons" that is
> discussing those papers.  The post that started it gives an
> interesting overview that may be helpful.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

Re: Search For Best Non-OBA Matte Paper

2008-01-11 by Tyler Boley

yes, but I thought he was after a matte paper, no?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "gvalansi" <gvalansi@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> -Hi Tyler:
> 
> Did you try with the Museo Silver rag?
> 
> Gabriel
>

Re: Search For Best Non-OBA Matte Paper

2008-01-11 by Clayton Jones

Hello Paul,

>By the way, the Premier Art Hot Press line of papers has a marginal 
>dmax (low 1.60's) only with the 205 weight...  The 270 and 325 
>weights should hit the high 1.60s.  They may have the highest dmax 
>of non-OBA papers that I've used.

I did try the 270 and got a reading of 1.61, but that's with K3 ink. 
It may be higher with Eboni (some papers read lower with K3, some are
higher).  With K3 STA is 1.65, as well as having the other advantages
mentioned.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: Search For Best Non-OBA Matte Paper

2008-01-11 by robert49brake

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <pr_roark@...> wrote:
>

> By the way, the Premier Art Hot Press line of papers has a marginal dmax
> (low 1.60's) only with the 205 weight (the Epson Scrapbook paper).  The
> 270 and 325 weights should hit the high 1.60s.  They may have the
> highest dmax of non-OBA papers that I've used.

Hello Paul, have you found a need to re-profile or re-linearize switching from the PAHP205 
to the PAHP270. with the R220.  I'm just about out of 205 and would like to make a 
permanent switch to the 270.  I'm primarily using UT-3D with your profiles  for the 205 on an 
R220.  Thanks in advance,  Robert.

Re: Search For Best Non-OBA Matte Paper

2008-01-12 by pr_roark

Hi Robert,

> Paul, have you found a need to re-profile or 
> re-linearize switching from the PAHP205 
> to the PAHP270. 

In general I do think the 205 coating is a little different than the 
270 & 325.  So, a re-linearization would be a good idea. 

With my 1800 3-MK profiles in QTR you can see the differences I 
measured in all the papers profiled.  In the Curve Creation boxes you 
can see the different ink limits (on the curves, not the boxes for 
that purpose), and the linearizaion tables tell you the dmax (read 
immediatly after use of a hair drier, so they may go up a bit 
overnight).  The 205 and 325 show different numbers in each of these 
areas.  The 205 dmax was L=16.95, and the 325 was L=16.02.  The 205 
actually has a higher ink limit (takes more ink to reach its lower 
dmax).  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: Search For Best Non-OBA Matte Paper

2008-01-13 by Philip Schwartz

I am getting a dMax of 1.66 using Eboni on Premier Fine Art 270.
Like Moab Entrada Natural, it has excellent contrast and can take a
large ink load without display any bronzing.
 
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Hello Paul,
> 
> >By the way, the Premier Art Hot Press line of papers has a marginal 
> >dmax (low 1.60's) only with the 205 weight...  The 270 and 325 
> >weights should hit the high 1.60s.  They may have the highest dmax 
> >of non-OBA papers that I've used.
> 
> I did try the 270 and got a reading of 1.61, but that's with K3 ink. 
> It may be higher with Eboni (some papers read lower with K3, some are
> higher).  With K3 STA is 1.65, as well as having the other advantages
> mentioned.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

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