Digital BW, The Print

In a message dated 02/03/2002 7:55:12 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
jerryolson@... writes:


> I was taken off the black and white piezo list for mentioning MIS VM
> inks once too often. I started quad printing with the piezo system. Paid
> hundreds of dollars for it. I was one of the first to use it. There were
> terrible bugs in the first version of the software that resulted in my
> wasting hundreds of dollars in ink and paper before the problems (the
> dreaded screen pattern all over the prints, and the horizontal
> stripes... no image, just stripes.) and the banding, the prints weren't
> square, etc. It was awful. 
> 
> Jerry! your giving new readers the wrong idea again. There were no terrible 
> bugs in the first version of the software.
> All those problems you mention are printer related, not software! There 
> where a few screen door artifacts on the 1160
> version which was quite some time after the first version for the 3000 and 
> later versions fixed that. 
> Back then you were throwing money at everything that came by, and I believe 
> you had that Mac of yours so screwed up that you had to by a new g4.
> You talk about wasting hundreds of dollars on ink and paper! Who hasn't? 
> goes with the territory of making better prints. I'm sure you spent 
> hundreds of dollars working up the VM ink method, and wasted a few sheets 
> of paper. 

I only post this for some sense of balance, because Jerry Olsen's post always 
have a tone of declaration! This is the way it is! But fact is his 
experiences 
are only his experiences, nothing more. The regulars know he is very 
opinionated, and those opinions have cost some of us believers plenty of cash 
too.
I consider Jerry a friend of sorts, but  these posts of his, leave me shaking 
my head!
Steve M.






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
>I only post this for some sense of balance, because Jerry Olsen's post always
>have a tone of declaration! This is the way it is! But fact is his
>experiences
>are only his experiences, nothing more. The regulars know he is very
>opinionated, and those opinions have cost some of us believers plenty of cash
>too.
>I consider Jerry a friend of sorts, but  these posts of his, leave me shaking
>my head!
>Steve M.

Steve,

I think you miss the point. The Piezography List was started by users 
and within months taken over by ConeTech. Jerry had to leave for 
asking too many searching questions. I sure hope this and the 
Archivalcolor List remain independent . The " Plenty of Cash" that I 
have spent was based on my own choice  not on Jerry´s opinions, and 
the fact that I am on this and the Archivalcolor List speaks for 
itself.

The other jerry.

Steve, you have a GOOD 3000 printer. I had 2, and both were flawed and
performed in the same manner. If you had one of the good ones, you
probably never experienced the screen pattern or the stripes. 

The screen door patterns were experienced by MANY people on the list. It
was one of the more often mentioned complaints. And the very first
version of software certainly had bugs in it. They came out with a Fix
for the screen door pattern, which I also had in the 3000 AND 1160
printers. The stripes were also fixed in an update to the software. I
wasted a LOT of LARGE EXPENSIVE paper, thinking I would get a great
print, and all I got was horizontal stripes going across the paper. If
these weren't bugs, how come those are no longer problems?

I didn't say the banding or the fact that the prints weren't square were
piezo software problems, just that all these things put together left a
very bad taste in my mouth.

> > Jerry! your giving new readers the wrong idea again. There were no terrible
> > bugs in the first version of the software.

The two I mention above were bugs, and they were fixed in subsequent
versions of the software. and they were terrible for me.

> > All those problems you mention are printer related, not software! 

Not all!


> > where a few screen door artifacts on the 1160
> > version which was quite some time after the first version for the 3000 and
> > later versions fixed that.

I know. They fixed the bugs!

I'm sure you spent
> > hundreds of dollars working up the VM ink method, and wasted a few sheets
> > of paper.

Nowhere near as much as on the Piezo system.

I've never said anything against the Quality of the Piezo system when
everything was working correctly. I've praised it a lot on the lists and
have sent many newcomers to the piezo system. 

I never had the greenie problem that many others on the lists mention. I
also never had the severe clogging problems that some mention, although
I did have a couple of really bad ones. 
> 
> I only post this for some sense of balance, because Jerry Olsen's post always
> have a tone of declaration! This is the way it is! But fact is his
> experiences
> are only his experiences, nothing more. 

That's OlsOn. :) 

I think they were quite relevant. I too, often make decisions on what
the folks on these lists post.

The regulars know he is very
> opinionated, and those opinions have cost some of us believers plenty of cash
> too.

aw C'mon, I'm not THAT opinionated. Maybe just a "little" :).

> I consider Jerry a friend of sorts, but  these posts of his, leave me shaking
> my head!

I only reported my experiences with piezo, and they are true. I would
have no reason to make them up. I imagine there are hundreds of users
who have never had a problem with the system. 

Jerry

> The screen door patterns were experienced by MANY people on the list. It
> was one of the more often mentioned complaints. And the very first
> version of software certainly had bugs in it. They came out with a Fix
> for the screen door pattern, which I also had in the 3000 AND 1160
> printers. The stripes were also fixed in an update to the software. I
> wasted a LOT of LARGE EXPENSIVE paper, thinking I would get a great
> print, and all I got was horizontal stripes going across the paper. If
> these weren't bugs, how come those are no longer problems?
>
> I didn't say the banding or the fact that the prints weren't square were
> piezo software problems, just that all these things put together left a
> very bad taste in my mouth.
>
> > > Jerry! your giving new readers the wrong idea again. There
> were no terrible
> > > bugs in the first version of the software.
>
> The two I mention above were bugs, and they were fixed in subsequent
> versions of the software. and they were terrible for me.

Jerry,

I think you're being unfair.  The horizontal banding was NOT a "bug".  It
did not happen on ALL 3000 printers, only some, and once they were aligned
perfectly (if they could be, some could not), they would not exhibit this
"problem".  What the new driver did was make it so a lot of the "not so
perfect" 3000s would not exhibit this problem...but again, I'd hardly call
that a bug.

Austin

I didn't say that banding was a piezo software bug. It came under the
many things that, all together, left me quite upset with the process.
The bugs I am talking about specifically are the Horizontal stripes,
(This is NOT banding), this was stripes that were printed. NO IMAGE
appeared on the paper, ONLY the stripes. The other was the screen door
pattern which ruined hundreds of prints. These things appeared at
random. I never knew if I was going to get a perfect piezo print or a
paper full of horizontal lines (Thick and Thin, from 1/8th of an inch to
2 inches across), or the screen door pattern. The screen door pattern
sometimes showed up only in light areas like a sky, and sometimes in
only small parts of the print, and sometimes over the whole print.
Sometimes they were barely visible and sometimes you could see them from
2 feet away.  These must have been bugs, because they were fixed in
updates of the software.

Jerry

Hi Jerry,

> The bugs I am talking about specifically are the Horizontal stripes,
> (This is NOT banding), this was stripes that were printed. NO IMAGE
> appeared on the paper, ONLY the stripes.

Ah, I never saw or even heard of that one!

> The other was the screen door
> pattern which ruined hundreds of prints. These things appeared at
> random. I never knew if I was going to get a perfect piezo print or a
> paper full of horizontal lines (Thick and Thin, from 1/8th of an inch to
> 2 inches across), or the screen door pattern. The screen door pattern
> sometimes showed up only in light areas like a sky, and sometimes in
> only small parts of the print, and sometimes over the whole print.
> Sometimes they were barely visible and sometimes you could see them from
> 2 feet away.

Hum.  I don't recall ever hearing about the thick banding issue...but I did
hear about the screen door issue.  I've been using 1160s and 3000s since
Piezo came out, and never ran into either of these issues.

> These must have been bugs, because they were fixed in
> updates of the software.

Could very well be.  Were you on a Mac or a PC?  I'm on a PC.

Regards,

Austin

Really, I agree.  This list seems to suffer from a serious lack of 
objectivity the more it "matures."  There are many of us who wish it 
could stick to being more of an informative resource than a chatroom.

Phil
http://philbard.com


> Come on folks, let's get back to digital B/W printing and stop the BS. Otherwise those with the "opinionated" expertise will find another play to play.

on 2/4/02 9:10 PM, Michael Kravit wrote:

> Now Bergh is weighing in and ragging on Roark.  I received an email from Bill
> this morning, he agrees that he got a bit out of hand and I think he regrets
> posting the way he did.

The thing is, Bill's and Jon's comments are always welcome here. By all
means they should put their thoughts together coherently, and express
themselves fully, and not let their feelings get pent up. But Bill did the
equivalent of driving by, shouting things, and throwing bottles out the
window, which only harmed his credibility. None of us even wanted to believe
it was him!

If Jon or Bill would like to expose the fallacies and biases they perceive
on this list it would be good for everyone, however, one would hope they'd
at least try to substantiate their claims. People were never invited to do
that on the Piezo list and that's why it's atrophied. Even Jon and Bill
don't participate there anymore. Even problems aren't solved there, people
are told to call in to get the "secrete" to fixing their problem. I don't
know what that list is anymore; it's not a users list, because if users
don't tow the line they get threatened with censorship, and it's not tech
support because IJM doesn't answer to problems.

My point is debate is important. Talking pros and cons is important. Some
people feel saying anything contrary to their chosen product is harmful and
unfair. I think flame wars/platform wars/ink wars are juvenile, but maturely
discussing a product's, or system's, upside AND down side is essential for
craft persons of the caliber on this list.

Todd

Boy Jerry, they make you sound like an Ogar! Olsen the opinionated Ogar...  ;-)

Actually, if I were them, I would pay more attention to what you have to say.
This list is begining to sound more and more like the other lists. Too bad really, I always hoped it would not deteriorate to this point. Now Bergh is weighing in and ragging on Roark.  I received an email from Bill this morning, he agrees that he got a bit out of hand and I think he regrets posting the way he did.

Come on folks, let's get back to digital B/W printing and stop the BS. Otherwise those with the "opinionated" expertise will find another play to play.

Mike

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jerry Olson 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 11:11 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Piezo/Paul's curves and such

  aw C'mon, I'm not THAT opinionated. Maybe just a "little" :).

  > I consider Jerry a friend of sorts, but  these posts of his, leave me shaking
  > my head!

  I only reported my experiences with piezo, and they are true. I would
  have no reason to make them up. I imagine there are hundreds of users
  who have never had a problem with the system. 

  Jerry




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Olson the Ogre. Has a nice ring to it. O the O. Catchy.

O the O

Michael Kravit wrote:

> 
> Boy Jerry, they make you sound like an Ogar! Olsen the opinionated Ogar...  ;-)
> 
> Actually, if I were them, I would pay more attention to what you have to say.
> This list is begining to sound more and more like the other lists. Too bad really, I always hoped it would not deteriorate to this point. Now Bergh is weighing in and ragging on Roark.  I received an email from Bill this morning, he agrees that he got a bit out of hand and I think he regrets posting the way he did.
> 
> Come on folks, let's get back to digital B/W printing and stop the BS. Otherwise those with the "opinionated" expertise will find another play to play.
> 
> Mike
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Jerry Olson
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 11:11 AM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Piezo/Paul's curves and such
> 
>   aw C'mon, I'm not THAT opinionated. Maybe just a "little" :).
> 
>   > I consider Jerry a friend of sorts, but  these posts of his, leave me shaking
>   > my head!
> 
>   I only reported my experiences with piezo, and they are true. I would
>   have no reason to make them up. I imagine there are hundreds of users
>   who have never had a problem with the system.
> 
>   Jerry
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
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> 
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>>> This list is begining to sound more and more like the other 
lists. Too bad really, I always hoped it would not deteriorate to 
this point. Now Bergh is weighing in and ragging on Roark.  I 
received an email from Bill this morning, he agrees that he got a bit 
out of hand and I think he regrets posting the way he did.<<<<

I've debated with myself about weighing in on this thread because I 
haven't been sure what the outcome should be.

BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR...

We certainly don't want this to turn into some kind of religious war 
over what is the best way to print BW. And we don't want to 
discourage open discussion, especially on sensitive subjects...these 
are sensitive because they affect us all the most.

Bill touched on perhaps the most important observation...here we are 
in a tiny corner of the world of photography...the only people in the 
world who really care about digital BW printing...and we're having a 
flame war over which of two methods is the best while the other 98% 
are worrying about color or wet darkrooms or what have you.

Surely, there are members of this list who have a variety of feelings 
about Piezo...the technology and the company... Most feel positively 
(in fact most of us use the software, if not the inks), some do not 
and this is for many reasons from price to philosophy and service.

The first thing we should remember is that IJM is a business. Jon and 
his staff have the right to make business decisions and run their 
company as they see fit to survive and prosper (no one will benefit 
in this forum if he goes broke). Everyone may not like those 
decisions, but if you analyze them, it is a question of paying or not 
paying for what he offers.

I've read every post for the last four months or so, and I don't 
think Piezo or Jon have been treated unfairly here...rough 
occasionally, but both sides of a question were generally presented 
if the discussion went one way too much. 

I think it's great that Bill might drop in. Jon, too, for that 
matter. But if they do, they should expect their comments to be 
challenged with the same vigor as the rest of ours are (at least to 
the extent that they make assertions about which others might have 
opinions). If they have the time to add to our knowledge base, so 
much the better, but that is probably their secondary purpose to be 
here since they are busy running the shop. 

We've had a couple of other small bursts of personal criticisms creep 
into some threads lately as well. Hey, a little liveliness is great, 
but we always walk a fine line in public forums...the number of 
lurkers is always greater than the active participants and the growth 
and vigor of the forums (in my opinion) comes from the intellectual 
challenges that finally draw the newcomer to post and join in and add 
value to the community. So... While we want free speech, it is only 
good thinking to remember who is reading it... This is more than a 
chat session (I'm as guilty as anyone with the increasing number of 
OT posts that may be going too far...jeez, this is the best example?).

I'm personally benefited so much from the stimulation, information 
and personal help I've received in this forum that I would be 
extremely sad to see it start to unravel.

I don't have all the answers, but I just urge all of us to get back 
on the high road and engage in the very high level philosophical and 
technical discussions that have made this list so terrific.

Thanks for hearing me out if you've read this far.

Tom O'Connell

TomOC@...
www.thomasoconnell.com

Tom,

You wrote:

>...
>We certainly don't want this to turn into some kind of religious war
>over what is the best way to print BW. And we don't want to
>discourage open discussion,
>...here we are
>in a tiny corner of the world of photography...the only people in the
>world who really care about digital BW printing...and we're having a
>flame war over which of two methods is the best while the other 98%
>are worrying about color or wet darkrooms or what have you.

I concur.  In all the groups -- real and virtual -- I've been in, it is an
advantage to not react to every statement.  The common goals are better
served by making room for normal enthusiasm and biases toward one's own
views or organization.

I've had private communications with Jon (not in the past week, however),
and he and I understand each other quite well, I think.  There is no
conflict or bad blood as far as I can tell.  Of course, he doesn't like to
hear his products criticized, but his communications have always been very
business-like.

My loose affiliation with MIS has been rather productive, so I'm not willing
to do something that shuts that down.  However, it is fairly obvious that I
see Piezo software as a good (not perfect) product, and I think the FS inks
(another good, but not perfect product) with that software make a very nice
printing system.

On the other hand, having a free, competitive option is critical to this
little market niche.  Hopefully, the variable-tone option contributes to
that and, at the same time, expands what can be done with the inks.

There are, of course, other quad systems, and if/when Epson introduces 8-ink
(k, 2 grays, 5 colors), pigmented printers, the game will become much
tougher.  However, for right now, I think Piezo and MIS are the pigmented
quads/systems of choice.

The variable-tone option, however, is not a completely unrelated system.
The black inks are the same, and the cyan densities are the same.  The
systems are siblings that share a fair amount.  This makes the costs of, for
example, the FS neutral, rather minor since is it also the neutral for the
VM-sepia.  And I have an interest in both because I use both systems, and
wanted a neutral ink and a sepia option.

So, what we really have here is more like a family feud.  An occasional
emotional outburst or over-the-top statement is par for the course, and is
really not be a big deal.

I hope Bill is right that IJM is doing well.  They have made significant
contributions to the field, and I hope they continue to do so.

And if/when Epson introduces the 8-ink super printer, these third-party
suppliers might find they need to work together more closely to survive.
The Big Guy may not ignore the need for a long-lasting, neutral gray scale
for very long.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Paul-

'Nuff said. Family feud is OK, religious war not <g>

I certainly admire the work you are doing (and hope to see it first 
hand one day...we do live pretty close). I'm still struggling with 
the curves on the cool end, but sure love the warm ones...

Tom O'Connell

TomOC@...
www.thomasoconnell.com

You guys are the bestest! ;-)

Mike

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: tomoc 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 5:14 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Piezo/Paul's curves and such


  Paul-

  'Nuff said. Family feud is OK, religious war not <g>

  I certainly admire the work you are doing (and hope to see it first 
  hand one day...we do live pretty close). I'm still struggling with 
  the curves on the cool end, but sure love the warm ones...

  Tom O'Connell

  TomOC@...
  www.thomasoconnell.com


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