Yahoo Groups archive
Thread
2008-02-07 by djon43
Right/Wrong? : HP B9180 beats Epson 2400 in *EVERY respect* ASSUMING OEM pigments (except panoramas and perhaps metamerism on gloss)...is that a fair conclusion? Asked another way: using OEM pigments, are there *any* B&W arguments in favor of 2400 or 1900, other than gloss and panoramas?
2008-02-07 by Ernst Dinkla
djon43 wrote: > Right/Wrong? : HP B9180 beats Epson 2400 in *EVERY respect* ASSUMING > OEM pigments (except panoramas and perhaps metamerism on gloss)...is > that a fair conclusion? > > Asked another way: using OEM pigments, are there *any* B&W arguments > in favor of 2400 or 1900, other than gloss and panoramas? I have none of them but some time ago they were compared to one another (+ a Canon) in a Photo-i review that also had a page on B&W: http://www.photo-i.co.uk/Reviews/printers/Pigs/page_1.html Also check what the reviewer would buy of all the printers on the market these days, at the end of the review. -- Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst | Dinkla Grafische Techniek | | www.pigment-print.com | | ( unvollendet ) |
2008-02-07 by Tony Sleep
On 07/02/2008 djon43 wrote: > Right/Wrong? : HP B9180 beats Epson 2400 in *EVERY respect* ASSUMING > OEM pigments (except panoramas and perhaps metamerism on gloss)...is > that a fair conclusion? > > Asked another way: using OEM pigments, are there *any* B&W arguments > in favor of 2400 or 1900, other than gloss and panoramas? Despite HP specs apparently limiting page length to 19", it is allegedly possible to get the B9180 to print up to 43" using Qimage. I haven't tried it since I don't shoot panoramas. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/hp9100Series/message/2332 I think you'll find owners of both printers who are mostly happy and a few unhappy. 'Better than' is relative to that and personal expectations, really. Both printers are extremely capable. For me, because I only print intermittently but when I do I need it to Just Work without the 3am Windex panic routine, the overwhelming virtue of the HP is its ability to maintain nozzle health on standby, with negligible ink usage. This does appear to do exactly what it says on the tin. The other clearcut issue for me is not having to swap between PK and MK inks when swapping between gloss and matte materials. I use both types and swap between them session to session, depending on what clients want. It makes excellent prints too, but there's no question Epsons manage that as well. Whether or not you like the HP's black+gray only option is subjective. It has no glaring defects (like dottiness or lack of tonal smoothness) except it bronzes badly on non matte papers. Aesthetically I mostly prefer composite B&W because I usually like warm prints rather than strictly neutral, and ultimate DMax is slightly improved too, but achieving that means tinkering with image colour rather than the elegant Epson ABW adjustments. Again, Qimage helps make up for that. I'll abstain on the 'better than', I have no regrets about getting the HP but I'm sure most 2400 owners would say the same about their choice too. Except maybe to wish they'd got a 3800 instead :) -- Regards Tony Sleep http://tonysleep.co.uk
2008-02-07 by Richard Smallfield
One thing I noted in the specs is that it doesn't like papers over 270gsm. That narrows paper options considerably. It is excellent value for money though - cheaper than the 2400 plus with a densitomiter. BTW - what's the value of a densitomiter compared with a colorimiter? Richard -- http://smallfield.vze.com "A conservative is one who admires radicals centuries after they're dead." --Leo C. Rosten
2008-02-07 by CDTobie@aol.com
In a message dated 2/7/08 1:06:23 PM, r.smallfield@... writes:
>
> BTW - what's the value of a densitomiter compared with a colorimiter?
>
While I fear this may be stating the obvious: a densitometer only measures
density, not color...
C. David Tobie
WW Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor
CDTobie@...
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
**************
Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all
time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp00300000002548)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2008-02-07 by Tony Sleep
On 07/02/2008 Richard Smallfield wrote: > One thing I noted in the specs is that it doesn't like papers over > 270gsm. That narrows paper options considerably. It's a conservative fib. I regularly print HPR 308GSM with no issues. Other people have printed with thicker stocks. Harman FB AL Glossy (320gsm) curl during printing is an issue for some people, giving head strikes, but I've had no problems. The B9180 adjusts itself to paper thickness but there is also a rigid media setting for board etc. that I've not used. The optical calibration is nothing to do with profiling, it allows the printer to recalibrate itself to a factory-set state if anything changes (eg new head installed) or drifts over time. This seems to be consistent enough across B9180's that a profile that works well on one will work equally well on any other B9180. Epson do their calibration at the factory or at service time, with the HP it's part of set-up, or any other time it might seem necessary. -- Regards Tony Sleep http://tonysleep.co.uk
2008-02-07 by daverich4
Hi David, This might just be a question of semantics but I've worked in a photo lab for a long time using a variety of densitometers. They're normally used for process control and read red, green and blue densities. Is that something different from what you're saying? -dave- > > While I fear this may be stating the obvious: a densitometer only measures > density, not color... > > C. David Tobie > WW Product Technology Manager > Digital Imaging & Home Theater > Datacolor > CDTobie@... > www.datacolor.com/Spyder3 > > > ************** > Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all > time on AOL Music. > > (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy? NCID=aolcmp00300000002548)
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >
2008-02-07 by CDTobie@aol.com
In a message dated 2/7/08 1:35:26 PM, TonySleep@... writes:
>
> The optical calibration is nothing to do with profiling, it allows the
> printer to recalibrate itself to a factory-set state if anything changes
> (eg new head installed) or drifts over time. This seems to be consistent
> enough across B9180's that a profile that works well on one will work
> equally well on any other B9180. Epson do their calibration at the factory
> or at service time, with the HP it's part of set-up, or any other time it
> might seem necessary.
>
That certainly improves consistancy, but I've yet to see it beat custom
profiling. Another reason HP does this and Epson does not, is that Epson's heads
are permanent, while HPs are replacable thus in need of site recalibration).
Epson provided (in some sections of the world) a utility that let users adjust
the printer calibration with an external patch reader, but has hesitated to put
much weight behind the method. And while its useful for making two printers of
the same model run from the same profile, its not really necessary to get
good results on a given printer, a custom profile pretty well covers that.
C. David Tobie
WW Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor
CDTobie@...
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
>
**************
Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp00300000002
548)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2008-02-07 by CDTobie@aol.com
In a message dated 2/7/08 2:46:04 PM, daverich04@... writes:
> Hi David,
>
> This might just be a question of semantics but I've worked in a photo lab
> for a long time
> using a variety of densitometers. They're normally used for process control
> and read red,
> green and blue densities. Is that something different from what you're
> saying?
>
>
Reading Red, Green, and Blue densities just helps you linearize each color
channel, or (making some dangerous assumptions) perhaps cross balance them. It
does not tell you, for instance, how saturated the red is, or if its a bit
orange, or a bit purple... that requires a color reading device, such as a
colorimeter, rather than a density reading device, like a densitometer. ICC
profiles require actual color information, not just density information. By the way,
a densitometer doesn't even know if the ramp its reading is Red, Green, or
Blue, you have to read the right strips in the right order...
C. David Tobie
WW Product Technology Manager
Digital Imaging & Home Theater
Datacolor
CDTobie@...
www.datacolor.com/Spyder3
**************
Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all
time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp00300000002548)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2008-02-08 by edknight_w
Using the straight paper path and the rigid photo rag setting, I've successfully printed several 13x19 prints on Hawk Mountain's Nighthawk paper(500gsm)using HP's B9180. The specs say the straight paper path accepts up to 1.5mm thickness. Believe this is close to the thickness of 4-ply matte board. I've also printed panoramas up to 36" long. Think prints will go to 44" on Windows, but have not yet had the need. --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tony Sleep <TonySleep@...> wrote: > > On 07/02/2008 Richard Smallfield wrote: > > One thing I noted in the specs is that it doesn't like papers over > > 270gsm. That narrows paper options considerably. > > It's a conservative fib. I regularly print HPR 308GSM with no issues. > Other people have printed with thicker stocks. Harman FB AL Glossy > (320gsm) curl during printing is an issue for some people, giving head > strikes, but I've had no problems. The B9180 adjusts itself to paper > thickness but there is also a rigid media setting for board etc. that I've > not used. > > The optical calibration is nothing to do with profiling, it allows the > printer to recalibrate itself to a factory-set state if anything changes > (eg new head installed) or drifts over time. This seems to be consistent > enough across B9180's that a profile that works well on one will work > equally well on any other B9180. Epson do their calibration at the factory > or at service time, with the HP it's part of set-up, or any other time it
> might seem necessary. > > -- > Regards > > Tony Sleep > http://tonysleep.co.uk >
2008-02-08 by Tony Sleep
On 08/02/2008 edknight_w wrote: > Using the straight paper path and the rigid photo rag setting, I've > successfully printed several 13x19 prints on Hawk Mountain's Nighthawk > paper(500gsm)using HP's B9180. The specs say the straight paper path > accepts up to 1.5mm thickness. Yes, having RTFM a 220gsm limit applies only to the 'Main tray' - the bulk sheet feed box. As you say, up to 1.5mm is specified for the 'specialty media tray' - the front single-sheet feed. -- Regards Tony Sleep http://tonysleep.co.uk
2008-02-08 by Ernst Dinkla
Ernst Dinkla wrote: > I have none of them but some time ago they were compared to > one another (+ a Canon) in a Photo-i review that also had a > page on B&W: > > http://www.photo-i.co.uk/Reviews/printers/Pigs/page_1.html > > Also check what the reviewer would buy of all the printers > on the market these days, at the end of the review. > The same printers are used for a range of papers: third party, HP, Canon and Epson in a test published in the February ColorFoto issue. http://www.colorfoto.de/kameras/testberichte/50_papiere_auf_3_druckern.155431.htm You have to pay some Euros for a download. German however. It is interesting to see that the B9180 is considered compatible with 20 papers of the 50 while the Canon ends at 9 and the Epson at 10. -- Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst | Dinkla Grafische Techniek | | www.pigment-print.com | | ( unvollendet ) |
2008-02-08 by daverich4
David, That makes sense. Thanks for the clarification. -dave- > > > Hi David, > > > > This might just be a question of semantics but I've worked in a photo lab > > for a long time > > using a variety of densitometers. They're normally used for process control > > and read red, > > green and blue densities. Is that something different from what you're > > saying? > > > > > Reading Red, Green, and Blue densities just helps you linearize each color > channel, or (making some dangerous assumptions) perhaps cross balance them. It > does not tell you, for instance, how saturated the red is, or if its a bit > orange, or a bit purple... that requires a color reading device, such as a > colorimeter, rather than a density reading device, like a densitometer. ICC > profiles require actual color information, not just density information. By the way, > a densitometer doesn't even know if the ramp its reading is Red, Green, or > Blue, you have to read the right strips in the right order... > > > C. David Tobie > WW Product Technology Manager > Digital Imaging & Home Theater > Datacolor > CDTobie@... > www.datacolor.com/Spyder3 > > > ************** > Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all > time on AOL Music. > > (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy? NCID=aolcmp00300000002548)
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >