Digital BW, The Print

I'm been printing digital "positives" on transparency film to use in
making photo-polymer etching plates; similar to digital negatives, but
I'm printing positive images with black ink only at 720 or 1440 DPI,
because I want to get a dot/grain pattern that will become the "bite"
in the etching plate.  

I'm been doing this on my Epson R2400, using the Quadtone RIP
software, so I can print with black only ink. I have been using the
Matte Black ink cartridge because it seems to give better opacity and
coverage for this process (I read something similar about using this
ink for digital negatives as well). 

The problem is that on the transparency films I've been trying, the
matte black ink never seems to become permanent and I can smudge it
with my finger. I thought this might not be a problem if I handled the
sheets carefully, but under the pressure of the UV exposure unit
(similar to a big contact print frame but with much more pressure), it
seems the ink is getting smooshed against the plate and causing random
rings and marks to show up in the final image, especially in areas
with continuous tone.   

I'm wondering if people are having success with using the Photo black
ink to print digital negatives, or if anyone has found a transparency
film that will accept matte black ink? 

Any advice or suggestions would be helpful. 

Best, David.

David;

I'm not surprised you're having trouble keeping the ink on the film; 
you really do need to use the 
PK ink, and if that doesn't give you enough density try a combination 
of magenta and yellow to produce red. The dark magenta in particular 
can look every bit as 'grainy' as the K inks, you should still be 
able to get the effect you want.

Steve Karafyllakis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David" 
<dkfreed@...> wrote:
>
> I'm been printing digital "positives" on transparency film to use in
> making photo-polymer etching plates; similar to digital negatives, 
but
> I'm printing positive images with black ink only at 720 or 1440 DPI,
> because I want to get a dot/grain pattern that will become 
the "bite"
> in the etching plate.  
> 
> I'm been doing this on my Epson R2400, using the Quadtone RIP
> software, so I can print with black only ink. I have been using the
> Matte Black ink cartridge because it seems to give better opacity 
and
> coverage for this process (I read something similar about using this
> ink for digital negatives as well). 
> 
> The problem is that on the transparency films I've been trying, the
> matte black ink never seems to become permanent and I can smudge it
> with my finger. I thought this might not be a problem if I handled 
the
> sheets carefully, but under the pressure of the UV exposure unit
> (similar to a big contact print frame but with much more pressure), 
it
> seems the ink is getting smooshed against the plate and causing 
random
> rings and marks to show up in the final image, especially in areas
> with continuous tone.   
> 
> I'm wondering if people are having success with using the Photo 
black
> ink to print digital negatives, or if anyone has found a 
transparency

> film that will accept matte black ink? 
> 
> Any advice or suggestions would be helpful. 
> 
> Best, David.
>

It's possible that you using the wrong kind of transparency film.  If the 
film that you're using doesn't have a prepared layer or has a layer designed 
for dye, then pigmented ink won't adhere or dry properly.  The correct type 
of transparency will be slightly milky in appearance and also be tacky to 
damp fingertips.

The real difference in PK and MK inks on properly prepared inkjet 
transparency lies in durability of the dried ink over time.  Reports seem to 
suggest that PK inks hold up a bit better.

I haven't had any problem getting matte black (or other colors of Epson OEM 
inks) to stick to mylar transparency film that has been prepared for 
pigmented inks.  I, also, haven't used the results for vacuum frame 
printing, but since a whole industry subset has adopted inkjet technology in 
the screen printing industry I would be surprised for this to be an issue. 
Unfortunately I don't have any links handy to include for suppliers.  If any 
of you are interested (let me know on the list) I'll follow up this email 
with a couple of links for mylar transparency designed for pigmented inkjet 
use.

-Lloyd Braddy

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steven Karafyllakis" <stevekphoto@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2008 8:21 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: problem with matte black ink sticking to 
transparency film


David;

I'm not surprised you're having trouble keeping the ink on the film;
you really do need to use the
PK ink, and if that doesn't give you enough density try a combination
of magenta and yellow to produce red. The dark magenta in particular
can look every bit as 'grainy' as the K inks, you should still be
able to get the effect you want.

Steve Karafyllakis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David"
<dkfreed@...> wrote:
>
> I'm been printing digital "positives" on transparency film to use in
> making photo-polymer etching plates; similar to digital negatives,
but
> I'm printing positive images with black ink only at 720 or 1440 DPI,
> because I want to get a dot/grain pattern that will become
the "bite"
> in the etching plate.
>
> I'm been doing this on my Epson R2400, using the Quadtone RIP
> software, so I can print with black only ink. I have been using the
> Matte Black ink cartridge because it seems to give better opacity
and
> coverage for this process (I read something similar about using this
> ink for digital negatives as well).
>
> The problem is that on the transparency films I've been trying, the
> matte black ink never seems to become permanent and I can smudge it
> with my finger. I thought this might not be a problem if I handled
the
> sheets carefully, but under the pressure of the UV exposure unit
> (similar to a big contact print frame but with much more pressure),
it
> seems the ink is getting smooshed against the plate and causing
random
> rings and marks to show up in the final image, especially in areas
> with continuous tone.
>
> I'm wondering if people are having success with using the Photo
black
> ink to print digital negatives, or if anyone has found a
transparency
> film that will accept matte black ink?
>
> Any advice or suggestions would be helpful.
>
> Best, David.
>




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Thanks Steve.  

Will the magenta and yellow inks dry on the film even if the PK doesn't?

And, are you familiar with the Quadtone RIP, and if so, if I told you
my settings, could you suggest settings for the M and Y inks that
would mimic this? 

Thanks, David.  


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven
Karafyllakis" <stevekphoto@...> wrote:

>
> David;
> 
> if that doesn't give you enough density try a combination 
> of magenta and yellow to produce red. The dark magenta in particular 
> can look every bit as 'grainy' as the K inks, you should still be 
> able to get the effect you want.
> 
> Steve Karafyllakis

Lloyd, what brand of transparency film are you using? I have tried a
few where the MK worked, but the coating is so course, it doesn't pick
up the resolution that I need. All the ones made for fine art or
digital photo applications don't seem to work. I've seen a few brands
that were for dye inks and I've avoided those.  

I'm not really looking at permanence as usually defined--I just want
the ink to dry and be permanent enough so I can't wipe it off with my
finger. 

Regarding the difference between the two, I've read: "they're actually
the same pigment, the only difference is the photo black has a coating
around the pigment particles so it sticks to glossy/luster media."

David.  

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Lloyd Braddy"
<lbraddy@...> wrote:

> It's possible that you using the wrong kind of transparency film.  

> The real difference in PK and MK inks on properly prepared inkjet
transparency lies in durability of the dried ink over time. 

> I haven't had any problem getting matte black (or other colors of
Epson OEM > inks) to stick to mylar transparency film that has been
prepared for pigmented inks.  

 -Lloyd Braddy

David,

Ah, resolution may still be an issue then.  I was transferring line art and 
resolution wouldn't have been so obvious as with creating negs for 
continuous tone photographs.

I used Inkpress transparency film.  Printing was done on an Epson 4800 with 
matte black and the standard ultrachrome inks.    The Inkpress media happens 
to have a multi-purpose coating which works with dye, dura-brite, and 
ultrachrome inks.  Initially it was the easiest product to get in the right 
size for my purpose.  Since then I've found other manufacturers that seem to 
be allied with the graphic arts/screen printing industry.  Most of these 
products use a microporous coating which is why you can use either dye or 
pigment inkset in some cases. As long as you've chosen the proper type of 
media for your inkset type, PK or MK inks seem to be somewhat 
interchangeable.

With PK and MK inks, I wasn't speaking technically but referring more to the 
real world end results with transparency printing - all based on anecdotal 
reports...

Sounds like you've done enough experimenting to know this, but it's actually 
pretty easy to print on the wrong side with transparency film and when you 
do that, you CAN wipe the ink off with a finger. I usually test the 
tackiness of the film with a damp finger and print on the tacky side with 
good results.

Forgive the reference, but Dan Burkholder is reknown for making digital 
negatives and uses pictorico transparency film.  He's alluded to PK inks 
being superior, but I think that's related to D-max..(again, anecdotal).  I 
have no direct experience with this transparency media since it didn't suit 
my project's budget. 
http://www.ppmag.com/web-exclusives/2007/07/making-digital-negatives.html

Some other internet links which might be helpful:

http://www.adorama.com/IJT172220.html  This is a link to the Inkpress media 
at Adorama.

http://www.americanscreensupply.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=36  This is a 
link to a Fast Positive waterproof (pigment) film vendor.

http://screenprinters.net/product.php?fk_pid=fastposfamily This link 
provides product details for both the non-waterproof (dye) and waterproof 
(pigment) films.  It's mostly sales stuff, but it provides more details than 
just prices.

http://estore.lawsonsp.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=275  Yet 
another vendor of waterproof transparency media -- don't let the photo fool 
you, these films all have a slight milkyness to them.

http://news.thomasnet.com/companystory/477675  This is a product that I was 
interested in, but could not pursue because it was designed for DYE BASED 
printing.

http://www.ulano.com/ijf/inkjetfilm.htm  Inkjet media overview for Ulano 
nano-porous coated films.

I do have a continuing interest in printing on transparency so I'd 
appreciate learning of your eventual results.

-Lloyd

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David" <dkfreed@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 10:32 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: problem with matte black ink sticking to 
transparency film


Lloyd, what brand of transparency film are you using? I have tried a
few where the MK worked, but the coating is so course, it doesn't pick
up the resolution that I need. All the ones made for fine art or
digital photo applications don't seem to work. I've seen a few brands
that were for dye inks and I've avoided those.

I'm not really looking at permanence as usually defined--I just want
the ink to dry and be permanent enough so I can't wipe it off with my
finger.

Regarding the difference between the two, I've read: "they're actually
the same pigment, the only difference is the photo black has a coating
around the pigment particles so it sticks to glossy/luster media."

David.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Lloyd Braddy"
<lbraddy@...> wrote:

> It's possible that you using the wrong kind of transparency film.

> The real difference in PK and MK inks on properly prepared inkjet
transparency lies in durability of the dried ink over time.

> I haven't had any problem getting matte black (or other colors of
Epson OEM > inks) to stick to mylar transparency film that has been
prepared for pigmented inks.

 -Lloyd Braddy



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as 
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to 
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same 
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep 
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. 
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the 
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W 
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from 
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guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and 
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND 
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FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY 
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, 
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND 
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POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY 
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR 
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY 
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

Yahoo! Groups Links

It's not unusual for some inks to not work with some films—especially Matte 
Black.   Try Photo Black instead, it should solve your problem.   If you are 
making digital negatives, there is an easier work around to this using color and 
avoiding black altogether.   You can get better density too.   see link 
below.



Best Wishes,
Mark Nelson

Precision Digital Negatives - The System
PDNPrint Forum at Yahoo Groups
www.MarkINelsonPhoto.com






**************
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2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Mark, right now I can't afford to buy your book, but it looks
like you have a successful system for DN. Also, I'm creating image
positives with one ink, meaning that they are made up of a series of
ink dots (similar to an aquatint), but they are not continuous tone as
you'd do for a digital negative.

That said, which ink or inks would you suggest to get the most
opaqueness or UV blocking capacity (on the Epson R2400)? 

Regards, David. 

 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ender100@... wrote:
>
> It's not unusual for some inks to not work with some
filmsâ€"especially Matte 
> Black.   Try Photo Black instead, it should solve your problem.   If
you are 
> making digital negatives, there is an easier work around to this
using color and 

> avoiding black altogether.   You can get better density too.   see link 
> below.
> 
> Best Wishes,
> Mark Nelson
> 
> Precision Digital Negatives - The System
> PDNPrint Forum at Yahoo Groups
> www.MarkINelsonPhoto.com

Hi David,

For the R2400 "Green" ink gives the most density.   This is usually true.   
Black inks in the new printers are very weak.

Are you making negatives for polymer plate?

I've been experimenting with polymer plates for photogravure and PDN is 
producing really good results using the KM73 plates from Boxcar Press.

Best Wishes,
Mark Nelson

Precision Digital Negatives - The System
PDNPrint Forum at Yahoo Groups
www.MarkINelsonPhoto.com
In a message dated 2/20/08 5:33:59 PM, dkfreed@... writes:


> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Mark, right now I can't afford to buy your book, but it looks
> like you have a successful system for DN. Also, I'm creating image
> positives with one ink, meaning that they are made up of a series of
> ink dots (similar to an aquatint), but they are not continuous tone as
> you'd do for a digital negative.
> 
> That said, which ink or inks would you suggest to get the most
> opaqueness or UV blocking capacity (on the Epson R2400)?
> 
> Regards, David.
> 
> 
> 












**************
Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living.
      
(http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/
2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks again Mark. 

How would I create the green ink? I'm using Quadtone RIP to control
the printer and give me control over which inks I'm using. I assume I
could select only the yellow and cyan ink, but I'm not sure how to
create a curve where these inks would be "mixed" in each dot.

Yes, I'm using these for photo polymer etching. And I'm making my
plates with ImagOn film. 

Best, David. 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ender100@... wrote:
>
> Hi David,
> 
> For the R2400 "Green" ink gives the most density. This is usually
true.   

> Black inks in the new printers are very weak.
> 
> Are you making negatives for polymer plate?