Digital BW, The Print

I must have missed the MIS post everybody is talking about. What happened?

Jerry




antonisphoto@... wrote:

> Todd,
>
> Martin and I are conferring on what is the best course of action. I certainly find
> the MIS wording inappropriate. And it was certainly not done with our consent.
>
> We will contact them and see what their intent was (beyond what it appears). I
> sometimes think people write something with good intentions (the mutual
> publicity benefit) but it turns out to "read" otherwise.  For the record, we do find
> it appropriate that the list is mentioned on the MIS site, as we do about all
> other bw-related sites, just not the wording.
>
> On the plus side, the nice thing about this list, is that it is appropriation- and
> cooptation-proof. The ownership and most members are end-users interested
> in making the best monochrome prints that fit their styles. They don't have a
> vested interest in one product over another. So, unlike a list used by a
> Manufacturer as tech support or promotion, this one will stay on course: if the
> product doesn't work, or we like another better, you'll find out about it here.
> Nobody is asked not to mention competitive products or their prices. On the
> contrary, the more people from different BW technologies, the better.
>
> Thanks for bringing this up.
>
> Antonis
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> wrote:
>
> > Martin, Antonis,
> >
> > As list owners you should know it appears that MIS is trying to appropriate
> > your list, behind the scenes, for their own ends. It is my understanding
> > this list was not "developed around these (MIS) inks", but to be inclusive
> > of all brands and methods of digital black & white output, including but not
> > limited to inkjet, and certainly not specifically those from MIS.
>
> > Todd Flashner
>
> If you do not wish to belong to Digital B&W, The Print, you may
> unsubscribe by sending an email to:
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> I must have missed the MIS post everybody is talking about. What happened?
> 
> Jerry My apologies for not stating it more clearly.

I received a message in my personal mailbox today from MIS. It was in
response to a request for more information about their inks, a long time
back. In their reply they referred me to this list, and stated it was
"developed" around their inks. I happen to know this list was developed
specifically to be free of any brand bias, other than any preferences users
may choose to share.

I felt it inappropriate of them to privately tell anyone that this list was
in anyway developed by, for, or around, them or their inks. They, as much as
we, are fortunate this list includes them, but they should take credit for
no more than that.

Mainly, I thought it fair that Antonis, and Martin, our esteemed hosts, know
that a vendor is taking credit for the existence, and/or purpose, of their
list, behind their eyes. Since MIS is insinuating this privately, to people
they presume don't already know about this list, new subscribers should have
no doubt of the true directive of this list.

Todd

> antonisphoto@... wrote:
> 
>> Todd,
>> 
>> Martin and I are conferring on what is the best course of action. I certainly
>> find
>> the MIS wording inappropriate. And it was certainly not done with our
>> consent.
>> 
>> We will contact them and see what their intent was (beyond what it appears).
>> I
>> sometimes think people write something with good intentions (the mutual
>> publicity benefit) but it turns out to "read" otherwise.  For the record, we
>> do find
>> it appropriate that the list is mentioned on the MIS site, as we do about all
>> other bw-related sites, just not the wording.
>> 
>> On the plus side, the nice thing about this list, is that it is
>> appropriation- and
>> cooptation-proof. The ownership and most members are end-users interested
>> in making the best monochrome prints that fit their styles. They don't have a
>> vested interest in one product over another. So, unlike a list used by a
>> Manufacturer as tech support or promotion, this one will stay on course: if
>> the
>> product doesn't work, or we like another better, you'll find out about it
>> here.
>> Nobody is asked not to mention competitive products or their prices. On the
>> contrary, the more people from different BW technologies, the better.
>> 
>> Thanks for bringing this up.
>> 
>> Antonis
>> 
>> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> wrote:
>> 
>>> Martin, Antonis,
>>> 
>>> As list owners you should know it appears that MIS is trying to appropriate
>>> your list, behind the scenes, for their own ends. It is my understanding
>>> this list was not "developed around these (MIS) inks", but to be inclusive
>>> of all brands and methods of digital black & white output, including but not
>>> limited to inkjet, and certainly not specifically those from MIS.
>> 
>>> Todd Flashner
>> 
>> If you do not wish to belong to Digital B&W, The Print, you may
>> unsubscribe by sending an email to:
>> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
> If you do not wish to belong to Digital B&W, The Print, you may
> unsubscribe by sending an email to:
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

Jerry,

if you go to
http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/workflow.html
and look under The Paul Roark Variable Tone Workflows, you will read the 
following:
>>>There is an excellent forum that has developed around the Variable Tone 
inkset called Digital Black and White Printing Forum. If you are using these 
inks or plan on using them, this is great place to get answers to your 
questions. <<<

Apparently wording to that effect is also emailed to  MIS customers as Todd 
mentioned.

That's the problem I was referring to.

Antonis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> I must have missed the MIS post everybody is talking about. What 
happened?
> 
> Jerry

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner 
<tflash@e...> wrote:
>I happen to know this list was developed
> specifically to be free of any brand bias, other than any 
>preferences users
> may choose to share.

I would suggest that everybody just take a breath; related to MIS 
and also to InkJetMall.

The MIS thing is probably just an innocent mistake. He probably 
heard a rumor that there was a big thread about MIS and he's 
guiding people there for further information. I can't imagine 
he/anyone would knowingly make up some story like that.

In general, I'd say we've got to do whatever we can to keep 
goodwill here. Both MIS and InkJetMall are our allies. They, to 
me, are the two leading players in supplying B/W inkjet image 
makers with quality products. I'd certainly not want to alienate 
them by spreading crazy unfounded rumors. 

If the wording of the MIS thing needs correcting, then let's get on 
with that, but then get back to work creating good B/W prints. 

If Jon Cone wants to respond the way he did, then I think that's 
his right; maybe he IS concerned; or maybe he does have 
something new on the horizon. He's obviously made a 
commitment to be in this business as a serious player; you can't 
expect him to completely show his hand to everyone who writes 
him with a question. Again, that's his right. I think you've gotta be 
careful to go pointing fingers so quickly. 

To me, both MIS and InkJetMall are on our side. They're regular 
guys like us. Short of Mike Columbotto at Epson, have you gotten 
anywhere near the amount of quality, honest, human support 
from Epson? 

Martin and Antonis have a good thing going here. It is refreshing 
that it's not founded by a company, with vested interests to 
protect. We're all just individual users, free to speak and 
question. But let's just make sure what we're talking about 
before we go posting just any unsubstantiated rumor.

-Mark Tucker, http://marktucker.com

A word of thanks for posting good advice, Mark.

Antonis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...> wrote:
[.........]
> I would suggest that everybody just take a breath; related to MIS 
> and also to InkJetMall.
[..........]
> -Mark Tucker, http://marktucker.com

Ah So! Thanks Todd!

Jerry

>
> I received a message in my personal mailbox today from MIS. It was in
> response to a request for more information about their inks, a long time
> back. In their reply they referred me to this list, and stated it was
> "developed" around their inks. I happen to know this list was developed
> specifically to be free of any brand bias, other than any preferences users
> may choose to share.

Hi Antonis,

Bob was getting so many posts about the MIS alternative to Piezo, he may have
thought that this list really did start around the MIS inks, and so that more
people could more easily speak their mind about the drawbacks of piezo without
getting rejected from the piezo list.  There's a lot of good information on that
list! I remember a while back when I was first mentioning cold toning piezo inks,
Bill Bergh wrote and asked that I not keep on posting along these lines, or "we
would be parting company".  I assume he meant I'd be kicked off the piezo list
for mentioning other inks.   This was before the MIS variable tone inks were
available, and I was adding photo cyan and photo magenta to the yellow piezo
position to get the cold tones. It's been over 2 years now that he has said a
cold inkset was coming out; they still aren't here; and I think that's long
enough. I've completely switched to the MIS variable tone Hextone inks for black
and white printing, and so far am totally happy with them. They offer Piezo
quality at a much lower price, and you can get any tone you want. In color I
switched from Generations to MIS because of the yellow. The generations yellow is
simply too light. But their Beta black is the blackest ink out there.  In my
case, I don't care that it's only rated at 50 years by RIT. Any ink that has a 50
year rating is good enough for me. I'll probably be using the MIS color inks,
along with the Generations Beta black for color. I don't do that much color,
except as freelance for others and my personal pictures, and I want the prints to
be as good as I can get.

> Jerry,
>
> if you go to
> http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/workflow.html
> and look under The Paul Roark Variable Tone Workflows, you will read the
> following:
> >>>There is an excellent forum that has developed around the Variable Tone
> inkset called Digital Black and White Printing Forum. If you are using these
> inks or plan on using them, this is great place to get answers to your
> questions. <<<
>
> Apparently wording to that effect is also emailed to  MIS customers as Todd
> mentioned.
>
> That's the problem I was referring to.
>
> Antonis
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> > I must have missed the MIS post everybody is talking about. What
> happened?
> >
> > Jerry
>
> If you do not wish to belong to Digital B&W, The Print, you may
> unsubscribe by sending an email to:
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/