Digital BW, The Print

I've been lurking for a while looking for answers, but have not 
found exactly what I've been looking for. Maybe some of you, or 
Paul, can clear things up for me.

1)  According to Paul's workflow, I should be using the 
Photoshop 5 default color settings in PS 6. This brings up the 
question as to whether I should be assigning a profile to my 
image file before I edit it. For example, if it's an RGB file, do I 
bring it in untagged (no color management) or do I assign the 
working space, i.e., sRGB? When I convert the file to grayscale, 
PS assigns the PS5 default grayscale profile, gamma 2.2. Since 
I'm on a Mac, shouldn't I be assigning it a gamma of 1.8? Should 
I be saving my grayscale file with an imbedded profile or not?

2)  In the Epson Printer dialog, do any of you use the Brightness 
or Contrast sliders, or should this be left at 0?

3) The reason for question number 2 is that my prints seem a bit 
less contrasty (particularly in the shadows) and maybe slightly 
lighter then when I view them on the monitor (I'm assuming that 
my monitor is calibrated correctly). In one of Paul's text files, he 
mentions using the Black (RGB) curve of his curve set to adjust 
for monitor to print matching. Won't this affect or alter the 
separate R-G-B curves in a non-linear fashion? Placing a point 
in the center of the Black curve should just affect the mid-tones, 
no? I just want to adjust the gamma so that my prints come out a 
bit darker, like what I see on the monitor. How do I do this?

Well, I guess I've used up my 15 minutes... btw, this group really 
rocks. You folks have provided me with a wealth of information. 
Thanks.

Ed

<http://www.his.com/ed>

i have done two things to darken images. one is i have created a 
darkening curve which i have stored in the my documents folder and i 
load it when i need it. i used trial and error to arrive at a proper 
curve.  i basically make a curve layer. the other is to create a new 
layer and use the multiply function in the layers box and adjust to 
about 50% opacity. when all is said and done i make test prints till 
i like the image, then "save as" a new image. like darkroom printers 
we may change the way we feel about the printing of an image over 
time and want to change things so i leave it in layers. just my 
2cents. larry pirrone

DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "ednmetrodc" <ed@h...> wrote:
> I've been lurking for a while looking for answers, but have not 
> found exactly what I've been looking for. Maybe some of you, or 
> Paul, can clear things up for me.
> 
> 1)  According to Paul's workflow, I should be using the 
> Photoshop 5 default color settings in PS 6. This brings up the 
> question as to whether I should be assigning a profile to my 
> image file before I edit it. For example, if it's an RGB file, do I 
> bring it in untagged (no color management) or do I assign the 
> working space, i.e., sRGB? When I convert the file to grayscale, 
> PS assigns the PS5 default grayscale profile, gamma 2.2. Since 
> I'm on a Mac, shouldn't I be assigning it a gamma of 1.8? Should 
> I be saving my grayscale file with an imbedded profile or not?
> 
> 2)  In the Epson Printer dialog, do any of you use the Brightness 
> or Contrast sliders, or should this be left at 0?
> 
> 3) The reason for question number 2 is that my prints seem a bit 
> less contrasty (particularly in the shadows) and maybe slightly 
> lighter then when I view them on the monitor (I'm assuming that 
> my monitor is calibrated correctly). In one of Paul's text files, 
he 

> mentions using the Black (RGB) curve of his curve set to adjust 
> for monitor to print matching. Won't this affect or alter the 
> separate R-G-B curves in a non-linear fashion? Placing a point 
> in the center of the Black curve should just affect the mid-tones, 
> no? I just want to adjust the gamma so that my prints come out a 
> bit darker, like what I see on the monitor. How do I do this?
> 
> Well, I guess I've used up my 15 minutes... btw, this group really 
> rocks. You folks have provided me with a wealth of information. 
> Thanks.
> 
> Ed
> 
> <http://www.his.com/ed>

> 1)  According to Paul's workflow, I should be using the
> Photoshop 5 default color settings in PS 6. This brings up the
> question as to whether I should be assigning a profile to my
> image file before I edit it. For example, if it's an RGB file, do I
> bring it in untagged (no color management) or do I assign the
> working space, i.e., sRGB? When I convert the file to grayscale,
> PS assigns the PS5 default grayscale profile, gamma 2.2. Since
> I'm on a Mac, shouldn't I be assigning it a gamma of 1.8? Should
> I be saving my grayscale file with an imbedded profile or not?

Sounds like you are scanning in RGB, then converting to Grayscale, then back
to RGB? If so you can probably skip the conversion to grayscale by using
Monochromatic in Channel Mixer.

If your sRGB is set up as your color working space in PS Color Settings
you'll be fine, you won't need to "assign" a profile, it'll be done for you.
BTW, as I use Adobe RGB as my color working space I've chosen to use it for
my VM space as well with good results.

If you do want to convert to grayscale (or if you scan in grayscale) you are
probably best served to use gamma 2.2 because sRGB is a gamma 2.2 color
space, so there'll be less shift when you convert between them.

Don't worry about the Mac "being" gamma 1.8, to my understanding that's more
convention than anything in the hardware, and even the convention has
changed. Many highend prepress people, retouchers etc, use AdobeRGB, which
is gamma 2.2 and even calibrate their monitors to 6500K, gamma 2.2.

> 2)  In the Epson Printer dialog, do any of you use the Brightness
> or Contrast sliders, or should this be left at 0?

I haven't used them but I think others do.
 
> 3) The reason for question number 2 is that my prints seem a bit
> less contrasty (particularly in the shadows) and maybe slightly
> lighter then when I view them on the monitor (I'm assuming that
> my monitor is calibrated correctly). In one of Paul's text files, he
> mentions using the Black (RGB) curve of his curve set to adjust
> for monitor to print matching. Won't this affect or alter the
> separate R-G-B curves in a non-linear fashion? Placing a point
> in the center of the Black curve should just affect the mid-tones,
> no? I just want to adjust the gamma so that my prints come out a
> bit darker, like what I see on the monitor. How do I do this?

If you want to be a purist, just make a separate adjustment layer for this
gamma tweak and set it's blend mode to luminosity. That keeps the colors
from being effected. I always make sure that Paul's VM curves are at the
topmost layer in the stack, which helps too.
 
Todd

I use the brightness and contrast sliders in the print dialog box to 
match my print to what I see on the screen. (BTW I have gone through 
the gamma routine and have adjusted my monitor to a step wedge.) I 
can't remember the exact settings I use, but they remain the same for 
each print -- at least so far -- and I haven't had any resultant 
problems with posterizing, banding, etc. That said, I may experiment 
with a gamma adjustment, just to see how effective that is.

Chris
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> 
wrote:
> 
> > 1)  According to Paul's workflow, I should be using the
> > Photoshop 5 default color settings in PS 6. This brings up the
> > question as to whether I should be assigning a profile to my
> > image file before I edit it. For example, if it's an RGB file, do 
I
> > bring it in untagged (no color management) or do I assign the
> > working space, i.e., sRGB? When I convert the file to grayscale,
> > PS assigns the PS5 default grayscale profile, gamma 2.2. Since
> > I'm on a Mac, shouldn't I be assigning it a gamma of 1.8? Should
> > I be saving my grayscale file with an imbedded profile or not?
> 
> Sounds like you are scanning in RGB, then converting to Grayscale, 
then back
> to RGB? If so you can probably skip the conversion to grayscale by 
using
> Monochromatic in Channel Mixer.
> 
> If your sRGB is set up as your color working space in PS Color 
Settings
> you'll be fine, you won't need to "assign" a profile, it'll be done 
for you.
> BTW, as I use Adobe RGB as my color working space I've chosen to 
use it for
> my VM space as well with good results.
> 
> If you do want to convert to grayscale (or if you scan in 
grayscale) you are
> probably best served to use gamma 2.2 because sRGB is a gamma 2.2 
color
> space, so there'll be less shift when you convert between them.
> 
> Don't worry about the Mac "being" gamma 1.8, to my understanding 
that's more
> convention than anything in the hardware, and even the convention 
has
> changed. Many highend prepress people, retouchers etc, use 
AdobeRGB, which
> is gamma 2.2 and even calibrate their monitors to 6500K, gamma 2.2.
> 
> > 2)  In the Epson Printer dialog, do any of you use the Brightness
> > or Contrast sliders, or should this be left at 0?
> 
> I haven't used them but I think others do.
>  
> > 3) The reason for question number 2 is that my prints seem a bit
> > less contrasty (particularly in the shadows) and maybe slightly
> > lighter then when I view them on the monitor (I'm assuming that
> > my monitor is calibrated correctly). In one of Paul's text files, 
he
> > mentions using the Black (RGB) curve of his curve set to adjust
> > for monitor to print matching. Won't this affect or alter the
> > separate R-G-B curves in a non-linear fashion? Placing a point
> > in the center of the Black curve should just affect the mid-tones,
> > no? I just want to adjust the gamma so that my prints come out a
> > bit darker, like what I see on the monitor. How do I do this?
> 
> If you want to be a purist, just make a separate adjustment layer 
for this
> gamma tweak and set it's blend mode to luminosity. That keeps the 
colors
> from being effected. I always make sure that Paul's VM curves are 
at the

> topmost layer in the stack, which helps too.
>  
> Todd

Todd, I think that if he uses a 2.2 workspace, he would need to calibrate
his monitor to 2.2 as well.  Also, as I understand it, by placing the VM
curve at the top, you would eliminate the need to set the blend mode to
luminosity?

Bill

on 2/6/02 1:41 PM, Todd Flashner wrote:


Don't worry about the Mac "being" gamma 1.8, to my understanding that's more
convention than anything in the hardware, and even the convention has
changed. Many highend prepress people, retouchers etc, use AdobeRGB, which
is gamma 2.2 and even calibrate their monitors to 6500K, gamma 2.2.


If you want to be a purist, just make a separate adjustment layer for this
gamma tweak and set it's blend mode to luminosity. That keeps the colors
from being effected. I always make sure that Paul's VM curves are at the
topmost layer in the stack, which helps too.

Todd





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Todd, I think that if he uses a 2.2 workspace, he would need to calibrate
> his monitor to 2.2 as well.

Bill 

I'm not enough of an expert on this whole gamma/color management thing to
explain it, but from what I've gleaned it seems your monitor gamma and
workspace gamma are two different things and don't need to match. I better
not say any more about it because I can't really explain it. I know I've
been told that a color management aware program like PS compensates the
screen image so that two well calibrated monitors, side by side, on
calibrated to g1.8, the other g2.2, each displaying the same image in PS,
will look very very similar because PS uses the profiles to compensate. Such
is supposed to be the concept behind color management in the first place.
That said, my tests haven't always born that out so I too am confused.


>  Also, as I understand it, by placing the VM
> curve at the top, you would eliminate the need to set the blend mode to
> luminosity?

No, but remember his question. First off, Roark's curves themselves won't
work as designed if their mode is set to luminosity because then you'd loose
the chromacity effects that are deliberately written into them. They need to
be set to normal wherever they are because they have both a color and
luminosity affective purpose. IOW, the use color to distribute the inks
properly, and they use luminosity to linearize the grayscale. Print a step
wedge using VM inks without Roark's curve applied and you'll see the low end
of the tonal scale is less smooth than with Paul's curves applied - the
smoothness of the VM curve is from the luminosity effect of the curve, the
lack of dots and the distribution of the toner throughout the curve is from
the chromacity of the curve.

Back to the question, which was whether an additional gamma move to the
master channel of Roark's curve would affect the chromatic aspect of it and
the answer is yes, but I doubt it's a big deal.

(Take a color image and open a curves layer and steepen the curve to
increase contrast. You'll see color saturation increase too. That's because
Normal mode uses color and luminosity together. Then switch the mode between
color and luminosity to see the difference between the effect of each.)

So to be pure about it and have your gamma tweak only affect luminosity and
not color, you should make your gamma tweak on a separate layer, and, a) put
it below Roark's curves in Normal mode, or b) put it above Roark's curve in
Luminosity mode.

But really, I doubt it would make much difference in the real world. That's
why I say it's for purists.

Todd

> 
> Bill
> 
> on 2/6/02 1:41 PM, Todd Flashner wrote:
> 
> 
> Don't worry about the Mac "being" gamma 1.8, to my understanding that's more
> convention than anything in the hardware, and even the convention has
> changed. Many highend prepress people, retouchers etc, use AdobeRGB, which
> is gamma 2.2 and even calibrate their monitors to 6500K, gamma 2.2.
> 
> 
> If you want to be a purist, just make a separate adjustment layer for this
> gamma tweak and set it's blend mode to luminosity. That keeps the colors
> from being effected. I always make sure that Paul's VM curves are at the
> topmost layer in the stack, which helps too.
> 
> Todd