Digital BW, The Print

Jerry, Paul, et al...
 
When you compare the curves of the VM inkset with the PiezoBW prints: 

1.  Is the PiezoBW closer to the "medium warm" or "warm"

2.  Does the VM variable nature allow you to go beyond the warmth of PiezoBW...in other words get it even warmer? (I like really warm prints.)

3.  Do you have to flush your CIS of PiezoBW inks before using the VM inks...or can one just fill up (top off) the 4 ounce bottles  with the VM inks to replace the Piezo inks?  

4. Does anyone out there know if there are any "compatibility issues" with pouring the VM inks into a CIS that has been using PiezoBW and is not "clean."

5.  If my PiezoBW inkset is running low on Black...can I just buy some MIS VM Black and pour it in on top of my PiezoBW Black to use until I run low on the other Piezo tones (CYM)?  

6.  Dotless?  
Was it the VM and Paul's Curves that is Dotless....or is it the Full Spectrum using the Piezo software?  Or is it both?

Thanks in advance. 
Steadman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jerry Olson 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 8:23 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Two Ink Sets?


  No, you don't need the piezo driver. I believe the MIS full spectrum inks
  are supposed to be a Cone Clone, identical to the piezo inks but at a much
  more reasonable price.   However, I don't like the brownish tones of the
  Piezo inks. The variable inks have it all. There are 5 curves, Cold, Cool,
  Neutral, Medium Warm and Warm. You can further define your favorite tone
  between any of the two curves by using the Magenta slider in the epson
  dialogue box. Slide it towards magenta, and your image gets bluer. Slide it
  to the green side and it gets warmer. The Magenta position is a very bluish
  ink. It will determine how brown or blue your prints get. This is for the
  1280 printer. If you are using an 1160, it's the Yellow/blue position slider
  that determines if you get more blue or more brown tones to your curve. The
  most beautiful tones I've gotten is with the Neutral curve and +20 Magenta
  (1280 6 ink printer). It is the exact shade I like in my prints. On the New
  Legion Photo matte paper it is beautiful. This is the whitest paper I've
  ever seen, and has very deep blacks. It's about twice the thickness (230
  gsms) of Epson's Heavyweight Matte paper.

  Jerry


  > So you are saying I'll get Piezography quality with the MIS
  > Variable Mix quads and Paul's curves? I don't need to  buy the
  > MIS Full Spectrum Inks and use my Piezography driver?

  Yes


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  If you do not wish to belong to Digital B&W, The Print, you may
  unsubscribe by sending an email to:
  DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steadman,

You wrote:

>When you compare the curves of the VM inkset with the PiezoBW prints:

>1.  Is the PiezoBW closer to the "medium warm" or "warm"

Piezo is just a hair warmer than the medium warm VM curve, at least if you
look at the red and blue RGB readings.  However, Piezo has a higher green
reading, so it has a slightly different look.

>2.  Does the VM variable nature allow you to
>go beyond the warmth of PiezoBW...in other words
>get it even warmer? (I like really warm prints.)

Yes.  The native MIS color is essentially the VM warm curve colors, and they
are noticeably warmer than Piezo.  Of course, you can also put the prints in
the sun for a while to warm them.  MIS inks warm a bit faster than Piezo at
first, but fade less.

>3.  Do you have to flush your CIS of PiezoBW inks before
>using the VM inks...or can one just fill up (top off)
>the 4 ounce bottles  with the VM inks to replace the Piezo inks?

On the 4-ink printers, the VM and Piezo inks are not only rather compatible
(I never use flushing fluid and have never had a clog even with lots of
switching of carts), but the gray inks are also the same density.  So, you
could probably salvage the CIS.  While you'd have some color inconsistencies
in the grays for a while, they would not be too far off.

The toner is another issue.  With the toner (yellow) position, I'd print
some solid yellow pages for a while until you get a consistent blue color.
Otherwise, you'll see the mixing of the inks in streaking, I'd guess.

So, bottom line, you can probably save the CIS, but get rid of as much of
the light inks as possible because there are some color differences.  (The
blacks are the same.)  The toner position will be the most critical and
hardest to clean out.

>4. Does anyone out there know if there are any
>"compatibility issues" with pouring the VM inks
>into a CIS that has been using PiezoBW and is not "clean."

See the above.  No guarantees, but I have never seen any evidence of
problems.  More likely you'll just have a hard time cleaning out the sponges
in the head.

Is it possible to replace the cartridge part cheaply?  Does MIS have a
cheaper part that will work and avoid the ink mixing in the cartridge
sponges?  This might be an interesting question for MIS.

>5.  If my PiezoBW inkset is running low on Black...
>can I just buy some MIS VM Black and pour it in on
>top of my PiezoBW Black to use until I run low on the
>other Piezo tones (CYM)?

I think the VM/FS MIS black is essentially the same ink -- maybe it is
actually the same ink.  So, I'd guess you can use it as a substitute.

Hope this helps.

Paul

> Hi Steadman,

> When you compare the curves of the VM inkset with the PiezoBW prints:
>
> 1.  Is the PiezoBW closer to the "medium warm" or "warm"

I'd say warm.

> 2.  Does the VM variable nature allow you to go beyond the warmth of PiezoBW...in other words get it even warmer? (I like really warm prints.)

Using the toner slider all the way to the left would probably give you a slightly warmer print than the warm curve, but not a large difference. The toner sliders are for fine tuning.
(it's the magenta/green slider for the 1280 and the Yellow Blue SLider for the 1160).

If you really want a WARM print, I can help you out by making your print as sepia as you want it by just using the color balance in Photoshop. Start with about 40 Yellow and 20
Magenta, and then just go up or down from there. There's also the many sepia tone duotones available in Photoshop. In any case there should probably be a little more yellow than
magenta in your final mix.

> 3.  Do you have to flush your CIS of PiezoBW inks before using the VM inks...or can one just fill up (top off) the 4 ounce bottles  with the VM inks to replace the Piezo inks?

I've never flushed. (except on the 3000 printer when I was using Lyson Fotonics)

>
> 4. Does anyone out there know if there are any "compatibility issues" with pouring the VM inks into a CIS that has been using PiezoBW and is not "clean."

I've done it. Generations and MIS are 100 percent compatible with epson original inks. So is piezo. I've used Generations photo Magenta and Photo Cyan mixed with Piezo yellow for cold
tones before the VM inkset was available.

>
> 5.  If my PiezoBW inkset is running low on Black...can I just buy some MIS VM Black and pour it in on top of my PiezoBW Black to use until I run low on the other Piezo tones (CYM)?

I think so. I think the two inks are probably the same base. I could be wrong though. I believe you can mix all the blacks except lyson's with each other. I've mixed Generations
Enhanced Black, Generations Beta Black (Which i believe are the same inks), MIS, Piezo and Ilford Archiva together with no problems.

In my 1280 I just went directly from the original color inks that came with it to the Variable MIS hextone set. No problems.

> 6.  Dotless?
> Was it the VM and Paul's Curves that is Dotless....or is it the Full Spectrum using the Piezo software?  Or is it both?

THe VM curves produce dotless prints. Haven't used the full spectrum. I believe that the Full Spectrum inks are identical to the Piezo inkset (i.e. the Cone Clone), same colors, same
inks.  Just a much much lower price. Ask Bob about that.

>
>
> Thanks in advance.
> Steadman
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Jerry Olson
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 8:23 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Two Ink Sets?
>
>   No, you don't need the piezo driver. I believe the MIS full spectrum inks
>   are supposed to be a Cone Clone, identical to the piezo inks but at a much
>   more reasonable price.   However, I don't like the brownish tones of the
>   Piezo inks. The variable inks have it all. There are 5 curves, Cold, Cool,
>   Neutral, Medium Warm and Warm. You can further define your favorite tone
>   between any of the two curves by using the Magenta slider in the epson
>   dialogue box. Slide it towards magenta, and your image gets bluer. Slide it
>   to the green side and it gets warmer. The Magenta position is a very bluish
>   ink. It will determine how brown or blue your prints get. This is for the
>   1280 printer. If you are using an 1160, it's the Yellow/blue position slider
>   that determines if you get more blue or more brown tones to your curve. The
>   most beautiful tones I've gotten is with the Neutral curve and +20 Magenta
>   (1280 6 ink printer). It is the exact shade I like in my prints. On the New
>   Legion Photo matte paper it is beautiful. This is the whitest paper I've
>   ever seen, and has very deep blacks. It's about twice the thickness (230
>   gsms) of Epson's Heavyweight Matte paper.
>
>   Jerry
>
>   > So you are saying I'll get Piezography quality with the MIS
>   > Variable Mix quads and Paul's curves? I don't need to  buy the
>   > MIS Full Spectrum Inks and use my Piezography driver?
>
>   Yes
>
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>               ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>   If you do not wish to belong to Digital B&W, The Print, you may
>   unsubscribe by sending an email to:
>   DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> If you do not wish to belong to Digital B&W, The Print, you may
> unsubscribe by sending an email to:
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Paul, I've done a dip 'n dunk test of 4 black inks. I know they'll all more or
less work for black and white quad and hextone printing, but can you mix them
for color prints too, without screwing up a color profile? I don't think a
black ink is actually mixed with the color inks very much, is it?

Of the blacks, I've found they rate like this: Do you feel this is accurate?  I
believe Lyson has the deepest black, but those inks are not compatible with
what most on this group are using.

Blackest of all :  Beta Black, from Generations.
Enhanced Black from Generations. Appears to be identical to Beta Black.
MIS black: So close to the above 2 you can barely tell it is the tiniest bit
lighter.
Piezo Black Ink, appears the lightest of the blacks, but it is still quite
black. I think I'm really splitting hairs here, and they all are very good.
They are so much deeper than the cone Color Piezo ink, I just can't understand
why he chose to use such a light black unless it was to eliminate metamerism.

Jerry

Jerry,


>I've done a dip 'n dunk test of 4 black inks. ...
> can you mix them for color prints too,
>without screwing up a color profile?

The black ink affects (approximately) the lower half of the tonal scale.
With quads, the different blacks mostly affect the separation of the tones
from about 65% to 100%, with the changes being more noticeable as you
approach 100%.

>Of the blacks, I've found they rate like this:
>Do you feel this is accurate?

>I believe Lyson has the deepest black, but those inks
>are not compatible with what most on this group are using.

>Blackest of all :  Beta/Enhanced Black, from Generations.

It's the darkest of the "pigmented" inks I've used.  However, I beleive the
darkness comes from having more black dye in it.  In the variable-tone
inkset testing, I found it caused metamerism, in addition to fading and
color shifting more than the others (MIS and Piezo).

>Piezo Black Ink, appears the lightest of the blacks,
>but it is still quite black.

The black ink for the Piezo COLOR inkset is light.  The Piezo quad black,
however, is very good and appears to be the same as the MIS VM quad black.
It is darker than the standard MIS black.  MIS VM black/Piezo quad black are
at the top of my list of blacks.

>...I just can't understand why [Cone] chose to use such a light
>black {in the color inkset] unless it was to eliminate metamerism.

That is the rumor I've heard.  However, I've not heard people complain about
metamerism in MIS or Generations pigments unless they try to use them for
B&W printing.  The Epson 2000P pigments are the ones that drive printers
crazy with the metamerism.

Paul