Digital BW, The Print

I want to go to 24" wide (have Epson 4800 now).  Guys at Calumet told
me they thought HP Z3100 than Epson 7880, and we did some
large B&W test
prints from files of my work I brought in on DVD.  These were done in
B&W mode (blacks and grays only) on commercial gloss roll media
(reminds me of CibaChrome), so
I didn't get to see it try to make "warm" tones.  At this point. I'm
printing warm tone on off-white smooth matt fine art papers.  I'm
leaning towards the HP, but would sure like some input from group.  I
do mostly B&W from scanned 8 X 10 negs.  Using traditional paper
(Ilford Gallerie), I would dry on ferotype for gloss.  But I've never
liked gloss media for inkjet, so I've been trying to get more depth by
lacquering the finished matt prints with moderate success.  I'm
excited about gloss enhancer idea because of this issue, but gather it
only works for gloss or semi-gloss media.

Other issue: in the store, they were using a Mac computer.  Processing
the photos in PhotoShop was extremely slow.  Also the printing was
very slow compared to my 4800 printing from my PC with XP
Professional.  I print 16 X 20- they were printing 22 X 28 with gloss
enhancer.  Is this printer slow compared to Epsons?

Thanks, Kip......

kipduff wrote:

  At this point. I'm
> printing warm tone on off-white smooth matt fine art papers.  I'm
> leaning towards the HP, but would sure like some input from group.  I
> do mostly B&W from scanned 8 X 10 negs.  Using traditional paper
> (Ilford Gallerie), I would dry on ferotype for gloss.  But I've never
> liked gloss media for inkjet, so I've been trying to get more depth by
> lacquering the finished matt prints with moderate success.  I'm
> excited about gloss enhancer idea because of this issue, but gather it
> only works for gloss or semi-gloss media.

It only works on gloss or satin media but includes the 
fiber, baryta types. On matte papers the GE drowns in the 
coating. I like it where it just separates the image with a 
little more gloss from the paper that is between matte and 
satin like Sihl's Professional Photo Baryt 290 gsm. The B&W 
results on matte paper with the MK,PK, Grey, LGrey used in 
quad formation and color toning added are perfect. It is 
based on the same calibration (linearisation) that is used 
for color printing.

> 
> Other issue: in the store, they were using a Mac computer.  Processing
> the photos in PhotoShop was extremely slow.  Also the printing was
> very slow compared to my 4800 printing from my PC with XP
> Professional.  I print 16 X 20- they were printing 22 X 28 with gloss
> enhancer.  Is this printer slow compared to Epsons?

On the printserver a 2.4 Pentium 4 with 2 GB memory + XP Pro 
and Qimage as the application to print from I can not 
complain about the driver's speed. It isn't slower than 
Epson drivers or printers in general. Possibly slower to the 
9900 and 7900 that were introduced at the Drupa last week 
but they will not be available till the end of the year.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,  Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

Thanks for response- never heard of Sihl- want to get some and try. 
Since I don't have a Z3100, I'll try on the 4800- not sure whether to
use matt or photo black ink cart (matt installed now).  It sounds like
you're saying the Epson can't achieve this look because no gloss
enhancer or use of both blacks.  How is metamerism when doing warm
tones with the Z3100?  I think I'm getting some with the Epson.  Your
website very interesting.  Thanks......

if you can wait a little, there is a new epson 24 on the horizon with
built in icc profiling as an optional add-on, if you are comfortable
with epson, stay put.

On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 8:54 PM, kipduff <kip.duff@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for response- never heard of Sihl- want to get some and try.
> Since I don't have a Z3100, I'll try on the 4800- not sure whether to
> use matt or photo black ink cart (matt installed now). It sounds like
> you're saying the Epson can't achieve this look because no gloss
> enhancer or use of both blacks. How is metamerism when doing warm
> tones with the Z3100? I think I'm getting some with the Epson. Your
> website very interesting. Thanks......
>
> 



-- 
 -------------------------------------
 regards, mehrdad

also u can get 220mil inks in the new epson printer where as the HP is
only 130mil.

On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 9:12 PM, mehrdad <msadat@...> wrote:
> if you can wait a little, there is a new epson 24 on the horizon with
> built in icc profiling as an optional add-on, if you are comfortable
> with epson, stay put.
>
> On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 8:54 PM, kipduff <kip.duff@...> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for response- never heard of Sihl- want to get some and try.
>> Since I don't have a Z3100, I'll try on the 4800- not sure whether to
>> use matt or photo black ink cart (matt installed now). It sounds like
>> you're saying the Epson can't achieve this look because no gloss
>> enhancer or use of both blacks. How is metamerism when doing warm
>> tones with the Z3100? I think I'm getting some with the Epson. Your
>> website very interesting. Thanks......
>>
>> 
>
>
>
> --
>  -------------------------------------
>  regards, mehrdad
>



-- 
 -------------------------------------
 regards, mehrdad

That may be the case but I have owned a HP3100 for about 1 year now and find that it is far more efficient in the use of inks than are the Epsons.  An HP 130ml cartridge is probably equivalent to an Epson 220.  Also, HP's APS (Advanced Profiling Solution) is just outstanding. You can try it out today.  No need to wait until the end of the year. Virtually effortless to produce very accurate profiles.  No color shifting with glossy papers.  
   
  I don't have anything against the Epson printers but I wouldn't trade my 3100 for a 7880.  Now Epson is coming out with a 7900?  After introducing the 7880 and 9880 just within the last year?  Wonder how that is going to go over with the people who just bought new Epson printers?   




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kipduff wrote:
> Thanks for response- never heard of Sihl- want to get some and try. 
> Since I don't have a Z3100, I'll try on the 4800- not sure whether to
> use matt or photo black ink cart (matt installed now).  It sounds like
> you're saying the Epson can't achieve this look because no gloss
> enhancer or use of both blacks.  How is metamerism when doing warm
> tones with the Z3100?  I think I'm getting some with the Epson.  Your
> website very interesting.  Thanks......   

On the Epson R1800 there's gloss enhancer so it should be
possible on that printer too.
There's no metamerism to speak off in either B&W or color
prints from the Z3100.
The Dmax on matte papers is better than that of the K3 inks.

The smaller cartridge size mentioned is an optical
illusion. 12 x 130 ML and a much more efficient use of inks
in the Z3100 can be easily compared to the 8 x 220 ML in the
Epson 9800-9880 models. With irregular printing needs big
carts are not an advantage either and the ML price (30
Eurocents excl VAT) in the twin 130 ML packs is the same as
Epson's 220ML cart. There's a pump in each Z3100 cart that
mixes the ink thoroughly before it enters the ink tube so 
pigment settling is no issue.

The new Epson 9900 and 7900 that I have seen on the Drupa
with and without the optional spectrometer will be an extra
category for Epson as I understand it. Pricing accordingly.
In the first place designed for proofing in the graphic arts
world. With the spectrometer the rumored price is around
8.5K dollar. A Z3100 with a spectrometer is way lower in
price.  On the 9900 PK and MK have each a channel to the
black head but a switch is still needed as the head is
shared and some ink will be lost like on the 3800. The 9880
and 7880 will stay in the catalog and they have the full
channel switch which is wasting more ink. The Epson
spectrometer has better specs (Fogra, with and without UV
filter) that suit the proofing task excellent but the Z3100
spectrometer is working perfectly for me in art and
photography printing. I bought the optional Advanced
Profiling Solution to get improved results from the
spectrometer though.

Epsons policy on replacing heads is now even more 
restricting than it was before as the distributors no longer 
are allowed to sell directly to users. The Canon and HP 
models have heads that can be easily replaced by the user. 
That doesn't mean they do not last long. Mine are 15 months 
old and not a single one had to be replaced.

-- 
Met vriendelijke groeten,  Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

> 
> It only works on gloss or satin media but includes the 
> fiber, baryta types. On matte papers the GE drowns in the 
> coating. I like it where it just separates the image with a 
> little more gloss from the paper that is between matte and 
> satin like Sihl's Professional Photo Baryt 290 gsm. The B&W 
> results on matte paper with the MK,PK, Grey, LGrey used in 
> quad formation and color toning added are perfect. It is 
> based on the same calibration (linearisation) that is used 
> for color printing.
> 
> 

Ernst:
Since the possibilities of varnish/gloss enhancer techniques are very
important to me, I want to study this before I get my 24" printer. 
Coating the prints with sprays or brushes is tedious with questionable
results.  I have offers from vendors to do an A - B test of the 7880 v
3100 if I send them some of my B & W files over internet or locally. 
Epson is promoting their printers with significant rebates and free
media offers- a vendor is implying that the Epson is better (but may
have conflict of int reset).  I am having some trouble finding the
Sihl Baryt 290 satin you mentioned (but I was able to get Harman
[Ilford?] Baryta Fb Mp).  At this point, Monochrom in Germany appears
to be only source (limited stock at Monochrom): I am calling Sihl USA
today.  I really appreciate
your suggestions and help so far.  If you could be a little more
specific about the print instructions with the Z3100, I will be better
able to give instructions to vendor when/if I get the Silh Satin 290.
 Since I have an Epson and may get another, are you saying that the
same/similar results may be possible with them?  If you could provide
more info, I could more easily decide which printer to get.  If you
wish to respond off-list, I'm at kip.duff@....  Again, much
thanks for advice, Kip.......