Digital BW, The Print

Hello Folks, 

I like to think of myself as on a perpetual learning curve so pardon my question if it seems a little beneath the expertise I see on this forum.  

I am curious about the MIS VM and Full Spectrum inksets.  After all of the messages on this forum lately, it is hard not to have some level of curiosity about the stuff.  

So I visited the MIS website tonight (thanks Martin and Jerry) to peruse and learn.

Everything sounds so good.  Paul has recommended the inks/curves/workflow and others concur.  So you guys are persuasive.  

Here is a question that pops up in my review so far: 

On the MIS site there is a Paper Profile Library chart that has only a few (3) profiles listed.  None were for the 1160 printer (unless you count "generic").  This chart was updated in January 2001.  

Given that proper profiles are so important to getting the best results with ink and paper, how is it that MIS only has three profiles available?  

In comparison, the Piezography system ships with 25 or more paper specific profiles.  

Am I missing something here?  

I have seen with my own eyes the difference that a properly profiled paper/ink combination can make.  IF one uses a paper that is not with a matiching profile, there is a likelihood of some "flaws" in the print or a sub-optimum print (as a consultant would say).  

So MIS users, how is it done?  Is everyone buying custom profiles?  Does everyone have a special profile making machine and testing equipment?  Or is it hit and miss methodology?  

Lest you get the wrong impression, these are sincere questions.  

Thanks in advance, 
Steadman


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I probably speak for all currently using MIS quad tone inks in this 
reply. Don't look at the profiles, we are using the workflows listed 
in the quadinks>workflow page, and self created workflows. 
Generally they involve either... 1) curves or levels applied to an 
image to get a good print range 2) transfer curves applied in the 
page setup dialog box to do basically the same thing, 3) more 
invloved rgb/cmyk seperations to seperate the print tones into 
the proper inks. Many different workflows going on here... none of 
which are actually "profiles" per se... as in ICC profiles applied 
through colorsync. Rather we are using "workflows" to profile our 
output to match our moniters. 

Hope this helps.

Dave

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Steadman Uhlich" 
<steadmanuhlich@k...> wrote:
> Hello Folks, 
> 
> I like to think of myself as on a perpetual learning curve so 
pardon my question if it seems a little beneath the expertise I 
see on this forum.  
> 
> I am curious about the MIS VM and Full Spectrum inksets.  After 
all of the messages on this forum lately, it is hard not to have 
some level of curiosity about the stuff.  
> 
> So I visited the MIS website tonight (thanks Martin and Jerry) to 
peruse and learn.
> 
> Everything sounds so good.  Paul has recommended the 
inks/curves/workflow and others concur.  So you guys are 
persuasive.  
> 
> Here is a question that pops up in my review so far: 
> 
> On the MIS site there is a Paper Profile Library chart that has 
only a few (3) profiles listed.  None were for the 1160 printer 
(unless you count "generic").  This chart was updated in January 
2001.  
> 
> Given that proper profiles are so important to getting the best 
results with ink and paper, how is it that MIS only has three 
profiles available?  
> 
> In comparison, the Piezography system ships with 25 or more 
paper specific profiles.  
> 
> Am I missing something here?  
> 
> I have seen with my own eyes the difference that a properly 
profiled paper/ink combination can make.  IF one uses a paper 
that is not with a matiching profile, there is a likelihood of some 
"flaws" in the print or a sub-optimum print (as a consultant would 
say).  
> 
> So MIS users, how is it done?  Is everyone buying custom 
profiles?  Does everyone have a special profile making machine 
and testing equipment?  Or is it hit and miss methodology?  
> 
> Lest you get the wrong impression, these are sincere 
questions.  

> 
> Thanks in advance, 
> Steadman
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steadman,

The profiles in Piezo software are one of its attractions.  However, I note
that there is no Archival Matte profile.  Yet, in the Piezo print exchange
in which I participated, EAM was the choice of most of the printers.

My hope is that everyone will share the Transfer Function profiles they make
for the inkset.  I also hope MIS will have a place where this can be done,
but I really don't know what their plans are.  (I'm not familiar with the
profiles section you mention.  Maybe they already have such a place.)

I find that the EAM curves work for Museo.  For Somerset Enhanced, it's
close, but a transfer function makes it better.  I have a draft TF for that
paper.

Paul

 -----Original Message-----
From: Steadman Uhlich [mailto:steadmanuhlich@...]
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 8:45 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] MIS Profiles Lacking?


  Hello Folks,

  I like to think of myself as on a perpetual learning curve so pardon my
question if it seems a little beneath the expertise I see on this forum.

  I am curious about the MIS VM and Full Spectrum inksets.  After all of the
messages on this forum lately, it is hard not to have some level of
curiosity about the stuff.

  So I visited the MIS website tonight (thanks Martin and Jerry) to peruse
and learn.

  Everything sounds so good.  Paul has recommended the inks/curves/workflow
and others concur.  So you guys are persuasive.

  Here is a question that pops up in my review so far:

  On the MIS site there is a Paper Profile Library chart that has only a few
(3) profiles listed.  None were for the 1160 printer (unless you count
"generic").  This chart was updated in January 2001.

  Given that proper profiles are so important to getting the best results
with ink and paper, how is it that MIS only has three profiles available?

  In comparison, the Piezography system ships with 25 or more paper specific
profiles.

  Am I missing something here?

  I have seen with my own eyes the difference that a properly profiled
paper/ink combination can make.  IF one uses a paper that is not with a
matiching profile, there is a likelihood of some "flaws" in the print or a
sub-optimum print (as a consultant would say).

  So MIS users, how is it done?  Is everyone buying custom profiles?  Does
everyone have a special profile making machine and testing equipment?  Or is
it hit and miss methodology?

  Lest you get the wrong impression, these are sincere questions.

  Thanks in advance,
  Steadman


  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Steadman:  Given that proper profiles are so important to getting the best results with ink and paper, how is it that MIS only has three profiles available?

This is a good question! It's been like that for a long time. But I don't think you really need many profiles for black and white printing. Paul's curves are made around the Epson Archival matte, but also work very well with the following papers:

Epson Archival Matte
Epson Watercolor
Torchon/Royal Riviera
Epson Heavyweight Matte
Aspen Dual Sided Matte Paper
Orwell
William Turner
Legion Photo Matte

Somerset Enhanced and Museo blacks are not deep with Paul's curves, but neither is the Piezo system. These papers just don't seem to have deep blacks, if that is important to you

> In comparison, the Piezography system ships with 25 or more paper specific profiles.

But if you print all 25 profiles on say, epson archival matte paper, they'll all print extremely close to each other. You will have 22 useable prints, and have a hard time telling them apart. (3 of them are darker and contrastier than the others)

> Am I missing something here?

Yup, see above.

>
> I have seen with my own eyes the difference that a properly profiled paper/ink combination can make.  IF one uses a paper that is not with a matiching profile, there is a likelihood of some "flaws" in the print or a sub-optimum print (as a consultant would say).

I think this is very true for color, not so true for black and white. I suppose you could just choose the 3 or 4 papers you really like and then have someone profile them for you.

Jery

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> > In comparison, the Piezography system ships with 25 or more paper
specific profiles.
> 
> But if you print all 25 profiles on say, epson archival matte
paper, they'll all print extremely close to each other. You will have
22 useable prints, and have a hard time telling them apart. (3 of
them are darker and contrastier than the others)
> 
Jerry Jerry Jerry
But none of those profiles are made for EAM, are they? They are made
to deal with specific issues for the intended papers. 
Perhaps they are wasting thier time optimizing the way that ink goes
down on that paper through that model Epson in 
ways your discerning eye considers pointless...

ah, the hell with it

> ...I suppose you could just choose the 3 or 4 papers you really
like and then have someone profile them for you.

Oh yea? How? Profiling software and hardware are for making profiles
to correct color. They have no way of knowing the 
desired end result of partitioning monochromatic inks. Creating quad
profiles...

ah, the hell with it.

and under Re: [Digital BW] BWdigital printing in photo mags - not
Jerry Olson <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> You don't hear much from Bill Bergh or Jon on the lists anymore
either. I suppose
> he is fed up with people talking about alternate inks that actually
result in as
> good a print as his inks for 1/5th the price!

Well well. Things become a little clearer.
Jeez, I need to spend less time on the internet.
Tyler

Tyler, The point was, that 23 profiles produced very nice black and white
prints. You'd be happy with any of them. The profile for the Epson Archival
Matte paper MAY be better than one of the 23, but we'll never know, because
Cone simply won't profile the most used of all papers. for folks on the
various lists. I can't say for 100 percent certain, but I don't think the
epson profile would be THAT much better than one of the other 23.

And about 2 years ago I bought 2 custom profiles from Cone Studios, and
Neither of them produced a print nearly as nice as I could get with tweaking
the Epson sliders. This was for Color inks, (Generations) on Aspen and
Glacier Papers. The prints made with his profiles were washed out and light.
So profiles aren't everything.


>
> > But if you print all 25 profiles on say, epson archival matte
> paper, they'll all print extremely close to each other. You will have
> 22 useable prints, and have a hard time telling them apart. (3 of
> them are darker and contrastier than the others)
> >
> Jerry Jerry Jerry
> But none of those profiles are made for EAM, are they? They are made
> to deal with specific issues for the intended papers.
> Perhaps they are wasting thier time optimizing the way that ink goes
> down on that paper through that model Epson in
> ways your discerning eye considers pointless...

Out of curiosity have you ever ran the 27 cone profiles using one image on
the same paper to see the differences

>
> > ...I suppose you could just choose the 3 or 4 papers you really
> like and then have someone profile them for you.
>
> Oh yea? How? Profiling software and hardware are for making profiles
> to correct color. They have no way of knowing the
> desired end result of partitioning monochromatic inks. Creating quad
> profiles...

Well Cone must know how, he's made 27 of them for Piezo inks and his
papers....

JErry