Digital BW, The Print

Are there any pigment printers out there that can out-of-the-box
successfully print on glossy/semiglossy paper with zero bronzing and
zero metamerism? I ask this because in all the discussion I've seen
regarding pigment printing on glossy fiber there is always the
admission that some bronzing still persists and that print spraying,
or doing something else, will improve the bronzing problem. In a
related vein, I would accept the limitation of printing on only matte
paper - since I do like the nonglare of matte -  but I've yet to find
a matte paper that has no (to one degree or another) distracting
surface but _does_ have great dmax, handling etc. Any paper
suggestions would be appreciated.

Chris Hargens

These are two entirely different questions.  You are talking B&W only?

The K3 Epsons do not have bronzing or metamerism on matte (no printer
does) and do good B&W out of the box.  I'd really get a few sample
packs of paper. I personally like Innova Smooth White 315, PhotoRag
Duo, and Premier Art BW (for a brighter surface).  I don't find any of
their surfaces "distracting" (they are invisible at normal viewing
distances) and get perfectly good Dmax, especially under glass/plastic
sheets.  The Innova doesn't flake much in my experience.

I use the MIS UTR2 inkset in a letter sized printer and don't see any
bronzing or metamerism.  Maybe it's there but it's negligible compared
to color pigment inks.  There is some gloss differential, but using
papers like Harmon FB Al or Epson Premium Semimatte make that
negligible to me as well.  If you're really touchy you might need to
home brew a BW inkset that includes gloss optimizer which helps with
gloss differential and bronzing.  Note, none of this is out of the box.

Roger


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jhargens2000"
<chargens@...> wrote:

>
> Are there any pigment printers out there that can out-of-the-box
> successfully print on glossy/semiglossy paper with zero bronzing and
> zero metamerism? I ask this because in all the discussion I've seen
> regarding pigment printing on glossy fiber there is always the
> admission that some bronzing still persists and that print spraying,
> or doing something else, will improve the bronzing problem. In a
> related vein, I would accept the limitation of printing on only matte
> paper - since I do like the nonglare of matte -  but I've yet to find
> a matte paper that has no (to one degree or another) distracting
> surface but _does_ have great dmax, handling etc. Any paper
> suggestions would be appreciated.
> 
> Chris Hargens
>

Hi Chris-

It sort of depends on what the meaning of "is (zero),is."  LOL

Seriously, both questions you ask can only be answered on a "it's good
enough for me, I like it" basis.

"Zero bronzing and zero metamerism"? Don't think I've ever seen it, not in
digital prints, not in color analog prints, not in silver prints.

Having said that, the z3100 series printers from HP come pretty close,
though not necessarily on all papers. I wish the Z3100 had a variable GE
channel, that would help with some papers.

As far as matte papers, one person's beautiful texture is another's
distracting surface. I use Hahnemuhle William Turner a great deal, love the
surface for most prints, except when I don't, which is when I often use
Innova smooth cotton, or Hahn. Bamboo. There are many others that work well.
Have you tried the Bamboo?

Bill


On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 2:14 PM, jhargens2000 <chargens@...>wrote:

>   Are there any pigment printers out there that can out-of-the-box
> successfully print on glossy/semiglossy paper with zero bronzing and
> zero metamerism? I ask this because in all the discussion I've seen
> regarding pigment printing on glossy fiber there is always the
> admission that some bronzing still persists and that print spraying,
> or doing something else, will improve the bronzing problem. In a
> related vein, I would accept the limitation of printing on only matte
> paper - since I do like the nonglare of matte - but I've yet to find
> a matte paper that has no (to one degree or another) distracting
> surface but _does_ have great dmax, handling etc. Any paper
> suggestions would be appreciated.
>
> Chris Hargens
>
>  
>



-- 
Regards,

Bill Morse
Wm. Morse Editions

http://www.MorseEditions.com/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jhargens2000"
<chargens@...> wrote:
>
Thanks for the replies, especially the suggestions for paper. I'm
currently printing BW on a 2200 with the MIS Pro inkset using QTR. I
print color and also some BW (with QTR) with the Epson UC inkset. Most
of my printing has been with Entrada and VFA. I have experimented with
both MIS PKN and glop on rc glossy papers. I was impressed with the
reduction in bronzing, but there was still enough there to bother me.
Also, to try out some of the glossy fiber papers that interested me, I
would have to work with QTR's curve creation, etc., an activity that
takes me further into tinkering and further away from just printing. 
At any rate, I'll try some of the papers suggested and see where that
get me.

Chris

I used MISPro as well and saw bronzing for color and B&W using the
color inks.  The dedicated B&W inkset I used (UTR2) had far lower
bronzing than MISPRO.  Aren't there approaches for the 2200 that use
dediated B&W inks with QTR or the Epson driver?  

With the driver, just use QTR Create ICC to linearize and you can
print on whatever paper you want with minimal tweaking.  Of course if
you want glop you'll need to use QTR.

Entrada's a decent paper but I've found its Dmax underwhelming.  I
prefer PhotoRag Duo.  I haven't used VFA but have seen it- it's a bit
more textured than I like.  Try the sample packs at inksupply.com and
inkjetart.com and I'm sure you'll find something you like.

Roger


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jhargens2000"
<chargens@...> wrote:

>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jhargens2000"
> <chargens@> wrote:
> >
> Thanks for the replies, especially the suggestions for paper. I'm
> currently printing BW on a 2200 with the MIS Pro inkset using QTR. I
> print color and also some BW (with QTR) with the Epson UC inkset. Most
> of my printing has been with Entrada and VFA. I have experimented with
> both MIS PKN and glop on rc glossy papers. I was impressed with the
> reduction in bronzing, but there was still enough there to bother me.
> Also, to try out some of the glossy fiber papers that interested me, I
> would have to work with QTR's curve creation, etc., an activity that
> takes me further into tinkering and further away from just printing. 
> At any rate, I'll try some of the papers suggested and see where that
> get me.
> 
> Chris
>

Iam quite pleased with Harman fiber gloss on my epsom 3800

Paul

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 14, 2008, at 11:57 AM, "jhargens2000" <chargens@sbcglobal.net>  
wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jhargens2000"
> <chargens@...> wrote:
> >
> Thanks for the replies, especially the suggestions for paper. I'm
> currently printing BW on a 2200 with the MIS Pro inkset using QTR. I
> print color and also some BW (with QTR) with the Epson UC inkset. Most
> of my printing has been with Entrada and VFA. I have experimented with
> both MIS PKN and glop on rc glossy papers. I was impressed with the
> reduction in bronzing, but there was still enough there to bother me.
> Also, to try out some of the glossy fiber papers that interested me, I
> would have to work with QTR's curve creation, etc., an activity that
> takes me further into tinkering and further away from just printing.
> At any rate, I'll try some of the papers suggested and see where that
> get me.
>
> Chris
>
> 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Chris,

>Are there any pigment printers out there that can out-of-the-box
>successfully print on glossy/semiglossy paper with zero bronzing and
>zero metamerism?... 
>
>I'm currently printing BW on a 2200 with the MIS Pro inkset using 
>QTR...

If the 2200 is your experience so far, then I think you would be very
pleased with a K3 printer.  Accepting your "zero" requirement
literally, I don't think anyone would want to stick their neck out and
say there is none with K3, but I will say that "for all practical
purposes" there is none.  I have printed K3 on several of the new
fiber glossy papers and found no bronzing or metamerism, at least none
that got my attention and screamed at me.  My biggest complaint was
gloss differential, which varied from gastly to almost negligible,
depending on the paper.  And from reviews I've read about the very
latest papers, that is greatly improved.

When the K3 printers arrived in 2005 their main claim to fame in
the BW community was the effective elimination of bronzing and
metamerism on glossy papers.  From comments in various forms, my
impression is that they are still arguably up there in first place in
that regard, especially considering the wide variety of papers K3 can
print on.  

I would recommend getting some sample prints and have a look.  The K3
printers are remarkable creatures.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
I-Trak 2.1   http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jhargens2000"
<chargens@...> wrote:
>
> Are there any pigment printers out there that can out-of-the-box
> successfully print on glossy/semiglossy paper with zero bronzing and
> zero metamerism? I ask this because in all the discussion I've seen
> regarding pigment printing on glossy fiber there is always the
> admission that some bronzing still persists and that print spraying,
> or doing something else, will improve the bronzing problem. In a
> related vein, I would accept the limitation of printing on only matte
> paper - since I do like the nonglare of matte -  but I've yet to find
> a matte paper that has no (to one degree or another) distracting
> surface but _does_ have great dmax, handling etc. Any paper
> suggestions would be appreciated.
> 
> Chris Hargens
>
Well, on a whim, I picked up a used Epson r260 from Craigslist ($30
with inks loaded). Anyway, I've made a few prints using the Claria ink
profiles from QTR and I'm impressed -- good demax, no bronzing, etc.
Is there any problem with using this inkset on some of the fiber
glossy/luster papers? I ask because most 260/1400 users seem to prefer
to use the MIS inkset, which, for me, is great on matte paper but for
glossy paper displays too much bronzing and other problems associated
with using pigments on gloss. Sure, you can spray or use glop, but why
do so -- except for saving money on ink, and increasing archivality
(but how much?) -- when the Claria inks look great and prints made
with themn are purportedly long-lasting when stored in an album or
displayed under glass?

Chris