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2009-01-10 by Ted Shaw
G'day - I'm thinking of buying an Epson 3800 and using MIS K4 inks. Is anyone else doing this? Is it possbile to get third party carts for refilling or do you need a CFS? I can't find any carts for the 3800 on the MIS web site. Any advice greatly appreciated. Best, Ted Shaw [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2009-01-10 by Gary Wagner
Ted, I am using a 3800 with Cone K7 inks in their CIS. It has worked fine without issue. I have never seen MIS inks for this printer in any reference. Let me know if you start using them or find out more information. Thanks, Gary Wagner
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ted Shaw Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 12:02 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Digital BW] Epson 3800 & k4 inks G'day - I'm thinking of buying an Epson 3800 and using MIS K4 inks. Is anyone else doing this? Is it possbile to get third party carts for refilling or do you need a CFS? I can't find any carts for the 3800 on the MIS web site. Any advice greatly appreciated. Best, Ted Shaw [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2009-01-11 by steveabrink
Gary, If you've compared Cone K7 with ABW/K4 would you have any feedback...? I tried a couple of years back the C88+/MIS workflow but saw little if any improvement over ABW... Thanks in advance, SteveB --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Wagner" <gcwagner@...> wrote: > > Ted, > > I am using a 3800 with Cone K7 inks in their CIS. It has worked fine without > issue. I have never seen MIS inks for this printer in any reference. > > Let me know if you start using them or find out more information. > > Thanks, > > Gary Wagner > > > > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ted Shaw > Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 12:02 PM > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Digital BW] Epson 3800 & k4 inks > > > > G'day - > > I'm thinking of buying an Epson 3800 and using MIS K4 inks. Is anyone else > doing this? Is it possbile to get third party carts for refilling or do you
> need a CFS? > > I can't find any carts for the 3800 on the MIS web site. > > Any advice greatly appreciated. > > Best, > > Ted Shaw > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >
2009-01-11 by steveabrink
Oops,I meant ABW/K3 (epson UC inks)... --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "steveabrink" <steveabrink@...> wrote: > > Gary, > > If you've compared Cone K7 with ABW/K4 would you have any > feedback...? > > I tried a couple of years back the C88+/MIS workflow but saw little > if any improvement over ABW... > > Thanks in advance, > SteveB > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Wagner" > <gcwagner@> wrote: > > > > Ted, > > > > I am using a 3800 with Cone K7 inks in their CIS. It has worked > fine without > > issue. I have never seen MIS inks for this printer in any reference. > > > > Let me know if you start using them or find out more information. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Gary Wagner > > > > > > > > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> Ted Shaw > > Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 12:02 PM > > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [Digital BW] Epson 3800 & k4 inks > > > > > > > > G'day - > > > > I'm thinking of buying an Epson 3800 and using MIS K4 inks. Is > anyone else > > doing this? Is it possbile to get third party carts for refilling > or do you > > need a CFS? > > > > I can't find any carts for the 3800 on the MIS web site. > > > > Any advice greatly appreciated. > > > > Best, > > > > Ted Shaw > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >
2009-01-11 by Gary Wagner
Steve, I am not an expert in digital black and white techniques but I have been working on this topic for three years and have accumulated some insight into the issues. Also I did large format (8x10) black and white for 30 years in the darkroom. I have compared K3 with Cone K7. As they say there are "strengths and weaknesses" to most things and this topic is not an exception. I will try and summarize a few of them that I think are most important. K3 images overall look very nice to most people. Strength K3 has great blacks density wise . Strength. K3 is able to produce many shades of black and white from warm to cool tone. Strength K3 is producing these many tones with color ink that may not be archival as one would like. Weakness K3 black and white has hints of color in the black and white images when looked at under different lights. Weakness K3 is very expensive. weakness. K7 images look very nice to most people. Strength K7 black are weak density wise. Weakness K7 offers several shades of black and white ink. Strength K7 Inks are considered to be archival. Strength K7 Inks are fully black and white with no hint of color under any light I have used. Strength K7 Inks are very cost effective. Strength. So there you have my findings so far in my black and white digital journey. I am not an expert and would not even consider myself advanced in digital black and white but I have made three or four hundred test prints and work on black and white digital imaging every day. In conclusion at this time I would consider K7 a better option in most cases but I need a blacker blacks to be happy. Over the past several months I have been using MIS K6 in my other printer and have additional strengths and weaknesses for these ink. The bottom line is I want a cool tone ink that is archival, without color and has blacks at a density range of 2.0 or above on matte paper. Am I asking for too much? Thanks for asking. I hope others will contribute or dispute my findings so that I can find the perfect system for making digital black and white prints and get back to taking pictures. Gary Wagner
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of steveabrink Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 4:09 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Epson 3800 ABW & C7 inks Oops,I meant ABW/K3 (epson UC inks)... --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com> , "steveabrink" <steveabrink@...> wrote: > > Gary, > > If you've compared Cone K7 with ABW/K4 would you have any > feedback...? > > I tried a couple of years back the C88+/MIS workflow but saw little > if any improvement over ABW... > > Thanks in advance, > SteveB > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2009-01-12 by Clayton Jones
>The bottom line is I want a cool tone ink that is archival, without >color and has blacks at a density range of 2.0 or above on matte >paper. Am I asking for too much? Yes, I think so. Unless there's something new I'm not aware of, the best matte paper dmax is around 1.7-ish, done with MIS Eboni on HPR for no color inks and on VFA with K3. Eboni can produce cool tones on certain papers, but with lower dmax. HPR, which is moderately warm with Eboni, is still the dmax champ. I'm still waiting for the big matte paper dmax breakthrough... Regards, Clayton Info on black and white digital printing at http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm I-Trak 2.1 http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm
2009-01-12 by Gary Wagner
Clayton, My results are the same as yours regarding density. Eboni does produce an excellent neutral to cool tone using Premier Smooth BW 310. My only concern is that this paper does contain OB. The paper also looks different as the back side is significantly different looking than the front side. The front side has a very heavy coating on it that looks like emulsion if you peel it off. Besides that the prints look very nice and the tone is very nice. The black density is about 1.72 with Eboni. Have you used this paper and do you have any thoughts on it? What about the optical brightener issue? What ink and paper are you using these days? Thanks Gary Wagner
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Clayton Jones Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 5:31 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Epson 3800 ABW & C7 inks >The bottom line is I want a cool tone ink that is archival, without >color and has blacks at a density range of 2.0 or above on matte >paper. Am I asking for too much? Yes, I think so. Unless there's something new I'm not aware of, the best matte paper dmax is around 1.7-ish, done with MIS Eboni on HPR for no color inks and on VFA with K3. Eboni can produce cool tones on certain papers, but with lower dmax. HPR, which is moderately warm with Eboni, is still the dmax champ. I'm still waiting for the big matte paper dmax breakthrough... Regards, Clayton [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2009-01-12 by djon43
I've just started to use a 3800...ABW allows some QTR-like toning but the alternative "Black" setting is startlingly good, seems dead-neutral, is far better than the older "Black Only" with 2200 et al which, although it offered more density than Eboni or Piezo, was carbon-reddish, so needed cyan to be neutral. Personally I'm afraid of CIS systems and third party inks (clogging and mechanical issues involving tubes, suction, bubbles etc. The huge ink tanks in 3800 were one of the reasons I bought that printer. Granted, $500 for a full set of OEM 3800 ink is a big deal, but my 2200 was actually more expensive a lot more cranky (though, since I only used OEM pigments I had no significant clogs). I've been printing 365GSM Museo Fine Art for two days and had absolutely no hangups (2200 was very reliable too, but doesn't rival 3800 in that respect). --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Ted Shaw" <tedshaw@...> wrote: > > G'day - > > I'm thinking of buying an Epson 3800 and using MIS K4 inks. Is anyone else doing this? Is it possbile to get third party carts for refilling or do you need a CFS?
> > I can't find any carts for the 3800 on the MIS web site. > > Any advice greatly appreciated. > > Best, > > Ted Shaw > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >
2009-01-14 by Clayton Jones
Hello Gary, >My results are the same as yours regarding density. Eboni does >produce an excellent neutral to cool tone using Premier Smooth BW >310. My only concern is that this paper does contain OB...The black >density is about 1.72 with Eboni. Have you used this paper and do >you have any thoughts on it? I haven't used it but have heard a lot about it. I think that's the best dmax you'll get from a cool toned paper. Most of them are under 1.7 (and, I'm pretty sure, they all have OBAs). >What ink and paper are you using these days? I've been using K3 in a 2400 since August '05. I use two papers now: VFA - best dmax for K3 ink, gorgeous tonality, has OBAs. STA (Innova Soft Texture Art) - best non-OBA paper I found for K3, beautiful tonality, warmer paper color and tones, but less dmax. >What about the optical brightener issue? There are no completely satisfying answers here. I did some research on this a couple of years ago (see the OBA section of article #5 at the link below) and the bottom line is that there are different kinds of OBAs, the technology is improving, and they're getting more stable. Problem is, paper makers don't tell us what kind they're using or how they're using them (in the coating, in the paper, or both) or in what quantities. So we have no way to objectively evaluate a paper's OBA "profile". Some people think it's a crucial major issue and others think it's overblown. Many float around between those extremes and can't make up their mind. It's often pointed out that the fiber darkroom papers we used for years had OBAs but it wasn't a subject of discussion and nobody worried about it. I've got silver prints here approaching 30 years old and they still look fine. Our choices seem to be: 1) avoid them altogether and be free from worrying about it 2) look for technical test results and/or anecdotal reports to help with making choices 3) throw caution to the wind and forget about it Problem with #1 is you lose out on some of the best papers. #3 seems foolish. I fall in the #2 category. I've been conducting various tests of my own for several years, have read various Wilhelm papers, followed this forum closely, and have made careful choices. For example, my favorite OBA paper is VFA. I've been conducting a direct sun torture test on a print and it recently passed the 100 hour mark without any sign of OBA burn off (or ink fading for that matter). So I use it with confidence and sell prints on it. Bottom line for me is I think it's a real issue worth considering, but the modern papers are so good that any visual differences that may happen will happen slowly and evenly over a long period such that it won't ever be a real problem. Part of my arriving at that was experience with Condor BW, a favorite cold tone paper in my Eboni BO days. I noticed that after sitting around the workroom for a few months prints were not quite as bright as fresh sheets from the box. They were just as white, just not as bright. Old prints looked as good as fresh ones and I never saw any uneven changes of any sort. For several years I used 7 or 8 papers regularly and conducted all sorts of tests. That's my personal history on it. Everyone has to come to their own peace about it. I hope this is helpful. Regards, Clayton Info on black and white digital printing at http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm I-Trak 2.1 http://www.cjcom.net/itrak.htm
2009-01-14 by Gary Wagner
Clayton Thanks for the information regarding papers and OBA. I had used K3 on my 3800 and thought the results looked very good. The two issues that concerned me were the use of color inks and how archival they were and secondly I sometimes thought I saw hints of color in the prints under different lights which also bothered me. Because of these issues I have been working with Eboni 6 and Cone K7 to try and find a better solution. It seems that all combinations have plusses and minuses with no perfect winner but all very good and useable. I am looking to get a older larger printer to do B&W with and am trying to iron out these issues on 8.5x11 paper before going to larger roll paper. I am still looking for better black density with matte paper but continued to be challenged to find it. Thanks for your help. Gary Wagner
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Clayton Jones Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 5:30 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Epson 3800 ABW & C7 inks Hello Gary, > I've been using K3 in a 2400 since August '05. I use two papers now: VFA - best dmax for K3 ink, gorgeous tonality, has OBAs. STA (Innova Soft Texture Art) - best non-OBA paper I found for K3, beautiful tonality, warmer paper color and tones, but less dmax. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]