Digital BW, The Print

I just printed with QTR, 2200, UC on GoldFibreSilk and although the
print is pretty good (I'll reserve judgement until the morning when
it's dry), I did notice that when I angle the print to the light
source,  it has a "solarized" appearance. I don't know if it's
characteristic of the paper, or ink, or curves. I don't quite know how
to explain it, and it would be impossible to post a jpeg showing it.
Do you know how I can correct this ? 

Thank you,
Frank

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "frankg_photo" 
<frankgross@...> wrote:
>
> I just printed with QTR, 2200, UC on GoldFibreSilk and although the
> print is pretty good (I'll reserve judgement until the morning when
> it's dry), I did notice that when I angle the print to the light
> source,  it has a "solarized" appearance. I don't know if it's
> characteristic of the paper, or ink, or curves. I don't quite know how
> to explain it, and it would be impossible to post a jpeg showing it.
> Do you know how I can correct this ? 
> 
> Thank you,
> Frank
>

By solarized do you mean a bronze-metallic sheen to the image when held 
at an angle to the light? If so that is called bronzing and is an 
inherent feature of the Epson k2 inks on gloss and semi gloss paper. 
Some of the oversprays may help as does a coat of GLOP or just use 
matte papers on which it does not show up.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "hp9180profile"
<owens@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "frankg_photo" 
> <frankgross@> wrote:
> >
> > I just printed with QTR, 2200, UC on GoldFibreSilk and although the
> > print is pretty good (I'll reserve judgement until the morning when
> > it's dry), I did notice that when I angle the print to the light
> > source,  it has a "solarized" appearance. I don't know if it's
> > characteristic of the paper, or ink, or curves. I don't quite know how
> > to explain it, and it would be impossible to post a jpeg showing it.
> > Do you know how I can correct this ? 
> > 
> > Thank you,
> > Frank
> >
> 
> By solarized do you mean a bronze-metallic sheen to the image when held 
> at an angle to the light? If so that is called bronzing and is an 
> inherent feature of the Epson k2 inks on gloss and semi gloss paper. 
> Some of the oversprays may help as does a coat of GLOP or just use 
> matte papers on which it does not show up.
>

Yes, I suppose it could be described as metallic. I don't see a bronze
tone & don't know if it's what you call 'bronzing' or not ? 

It is most evident at the edges where dark & light tones meet.

You say that it is inherent with this printer/inkset (photo black &
light black) & all gloss/semi-gloss papers ?

What oversprays are recommended ?

thanks,
Frank

> > > I just printed with QTR, 2200, UC on GoldFibreSilk and although the
> > > print is pretty good (I'll reserve judgement until the morning when
> > > it's dry), I did notice that when I angle the print to the light
> > > source,  it has a "solarized" appearance. I don't know if it's
> > > characteristic of the paper, or ink, or curves. I don't quite
know how
> > > to explain it, and it would be impossible to post a jpeg showing it.
> > > Do you know how I can correct this ? 
> > > 
> > > Thank you,
> > > Frank
> > >
> > 
> > By solarized do you mean a bronze-metallic sheen to the image when
held 
> > at an angle to the light? If so that is called bronzing and is an 
> > inherent feature of the Epson k2 inks on gloss and semi gloss paper. 
> > Some of the oversprays may help as does a coat of GLOP or just use 
> > matte papers on which it does not show up.
> >
> 
> Yes, I suppose it could be described as metallic. I don't see a bronze
> tone & don't know if it's what you call 'bronzing' or not ? 
> 
> It is most evident at the edges where dark & light tones meet.
> 
> You say that it is inherent with this printer/inkset (photo black &
> light black) & all gloss/semi-gloss papers ?
> 
> What oversprays are recommended ?
> 
I should add that although you say I will get this from Any gloss or
semi-gloss paper, I haven't noticed it before. I have printed on Epson
Premium Gloss and Ilford Pearl

> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "frankg_photo" 
> > <frankgross@> wrote:
> 
> 
> You say that it is inherent with this printer/inkset (photo black &
> light black) & all gloss/semi-gloss papers ?
> 
> What oversprays are recommended ?
> 
> thanks,
> Frank
>

Well, I use MIS GlOP to overspray PK papers. If you have a spare slot 
you could install this in your 2200. It does a great job in my view of 
getting rid of bronzing. Some on this board use Premier Art Shield but 
I have no first hand knowledge of this product so would not like to 
comment on its effectiveness at removing bronzing.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "frankg_photo" 
<frankgross@...> wrote:
>
> > 
> I should add that although you say I will get this from Any gloss or
> semi-gloss paper, I haven't noticed it before. I have printed on Epson
> Premium Gloss and Ilford Pearl
>

It will be there, just not so noticeable on those papers. Epson papers 
in particular seem to control it better. Regardless, I have bronzing on 
every 2200 print I ever made using the Epson inks, to a greater or 
lesser extent. You have to look for it though, and most people viewing 
your work will be looking at the image, not the bronzing.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "hp9180profile" <owens@...> 
wrote:
>
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "frankg_photo" 
> > > <frankgross@> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > You say that it is inherent with this printer/inkset (photo black &
> > light black) & all gloss/semi-gloss papers ?
> > 
> > What oversprays are recommended ?
> > 
> > thanks,
> > Frank

 Three light coats of PremierArt Print Shield on my IGFS prints does an excellent job of 
knocking down any metamerism or 'bronzing'. I'm using QTR with my R2400 & K3 inks and 
I'm very happy with Gold Fibre Silk.
Good Luck!
Julian Kaiser

> 
>  Three light coats of PremierArt Print Shield on my IGFS prints does
an excellent job of 
> knocking down any metamerism or 'bronzing'. I'm using QTR with my
R2400 & K3 inks and 
> I'm very happy with Gold Fibre Silk.
> Good Luck!
> Julian Kaiser
>

Julian, 

You get this effect with K3 inks too? I thought it was supposed to be
a K2 ink + gloss/semi-gloss paper problem ?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "frankg_photo"
<frankgross@...> wrote:
> You get this effect with K3 inks too? I thought it was supposed to be
> a K2 ink + gloss/semi-gloss paper problem ?
>

I'm no ink expert, but I have read that pigment inks are more
suseptible to bronzing and metamerism than dye inks, partly due to
their larger particle sizes.  I know some inksets and ink colors
exhibit this more than others.  Yellow inks seem to have more of their
share of problems than some of the others.  

I'm currently using a Canon iPF6100 pigment inkjet printer, and like
Epsons, it too can exhibit some bronzing, gloss differential and
metamerism, which is much more noticeable on some papers than others.
 As usual, luster, silk and gloss papers tend to be the worst. 
Different lighting can also either help hide or accentuate it.  

When mounted behind glass or Plexi, much or all of this effect is
invisible to my eye.  Sprays are another option.   

Lou

It is noticeable with UC K3 inks if you look for it, albeit very much less
than with the previous UC K2 inks.  I think the only way to avoid it is to
use GLOP like the Z3100.  Sadly, at least in my experience, it is rather
harder to get the GLOP laid down correctly than it seems at first glance.
Whilst you get rid of the bronzing/gloss differential you start to suffer
other problems like fine mottling in the upper midtones which is equally if
not more objectionable.  Just goes to show what a good job HP have done with
the Z3100.

David Whistance

  -----Original Message-----
  From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
frankg_photo
  Sent: 28 January 2009 19:04
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: A "solarized" appearance ?



  >
  > Three light coats of PremierArt Print Shield on my IGFS prints does
  an excellent job of
  > knocking down any metamerism or 'bronzing'. I'm using QTR with my
  R2400 & K3 inks and
  > I'm very happy with Gold Fibre Silk.
  > Good Luck!
  > Julian Kaiser
  >

  Julian,

  You get this effect with K3 inks too? I thought it was supposed to be
  a K2 ink + gloss/semi-gloss paper problem ?



  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 1/28/2009 3:18:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
david.whistance@... writes:

It is  noticeable with UC K3 inks if you look for it, albeit very much less
than  with the previous UC K2 inks.  I think the only way to avoid it is  to
use GLOP like the Z3100.  Sadly, at least in my experience, it is  rather
harder to get the GLOP laid down correctly than it seems at first  glance.
Whilst you get rid of the bronzing/gloss differential you start to  suffer
other problems like fine mottling in the upper midtones which is  equally if
not more objectionable.  Just goes to show what a good job  HP have done with
the Z3100.

David  Whistance



David:
In your experience, has HP solved the gloss differential problem, or is  
there still "fine mottling in the upper midtones"?
 
Richard
_www.rmassiephotography.com_ (http://www.rmassiephotography.com) 
 
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Just goes to show what a good job HP have done with
> the Z3100.
> 

I am starting to collect info on printers that will inform my next
purchase when I manage to upgrade from the 2200 - I hadn't really
thought of anything other than an Epson, but now that you mention th
HP Z3100 I am curious - do they eliminate this problem entirely ?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "frankg_photo" <frankgross@...> 
wrote:
>
> 
> > 
> >  Three light coats of PremierArt Print Shield on my IGFS prints does
> an excellent job of 
> > knocking down any metamerism or 'bronzing'. I'm using QTR with my
> R2400 & K3 inks and 
> > I'm very happy with Gold Fibre Silk.
> > Good Luck!
> > Julian Kaiser
> >
> 
> Julian, 
> 
> You get this effect with K3 inks too? I thought it was supposed to be
> a K2 ink + gloss/semi-gloss paper problem ?
>
Yes, very, very slightly and not on all images. Since I am printing a portfolio that will be 
handled,(loose prints in a clamshell case protected with archival sleeves) and the prints 
may be viewed from many angles I'm using Print Shield as a final step. 
Regards,
Julian Kaiser

This is a little late for this thread, but when I first read it, I  
was wondering why
one should have to spray a print three times to eliminate bronzing or  
metamerism.
I've not used Gold Fibre Silk paper, but assume it's at least close  
to a glossy paper.

For whatever it's worth, even though most of this group talks about  
various ink mixtures and
how they work with different papers, for my purposes, there's been a  
very easy solution to
eliminate both the metamerism and bronzing on glossy paper. I print  
my commercial work
mostly on a 2400, using Ultrachrome K3 Inks. I tested 5 or 6 papers a  
couple years ago, and
found that Lumijet Glossy II works perfectly, with the downloaded  
profile from Hahnemuhle,
who bought the company a few years ago.
The one thing I dislike about the paper is that it's not [paper]! It  
looks like an RC paper - I'm not
sure of it's exact composition, and probably would not generally pick  
it for prints in a show. On
the other hand, I'm able to make perfect reproductions of Old  
Master's paintings, which is difficult
to accomplish under most conditions. This has been true, even for the  
very large prints which I send
out for printing, from my files. The lab uses the same paper. Really  
- accurate reproduction under
3200 Kelvin gallery lighting and daylight, even when mixed with  
fluorescent.
Epson really did something correctly with that ink set.

Clay Price


"frankg_photo" <frankgross@...> wrote:
 > > Three light coats of PremierArt Print Shield on my IGFS prints does
 > an excellent job of
 > > knocking down any metamerism or 'bronzing'. I'm using QTR with my
 > R2400 & K3 inks and
 > > I'm very happy with Gold Fibre Silk.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

why
> one should have to spray a print three times to eliminate bronzing or  
> metamerism.


Clay, 
I'm the original poster so I'm obviously looking for solutions rather
than being able to dish out advice. But what I've learned so far is
that the Photo Black ink (in particular) sits on the surface and has a
different reflectance to the paper surface and that causes the
'solarized" appearance particularly where the dark and medium or light
tones meet.
Frank

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "frankg_photo"
<frankgross@...> wrote:
>
>  why
> > one should have to spray a print three times to eliminate bronzing
or  
> > metamerism.
> 
> 
> Clay, 
> I'm the original poster so I'm obviously looking for solutions rather
> than being able to dish out advice. But what I've learned so far is
> that the Photo Black ink (in particular) sits on the surface and has a
> different reflectance to the paper surface and that causes the
> 'solarized" appearance particularly where the dark and medium or light
> tones meet.
> Frank
>
& (I should have added to the last post) by spraying the 'shield' 2 or
3 times, you add some gloss to the print thereby lessening the
difference between the reflectance of the blacks and the rest,
reducing the 'solarized" appearance.

Hi Frank,
I guess my point  (although I didn't say it in exact terms), is that  
different papers
behave in different ways. Some, I remember from the early days with  
Piezo inks,
all sat right on the surface of glossy papers -- so much so that you  
could wipe half
the inks off with a paper towel, hours later.

The paper I mentioned, Lumijet Gloss II, ( I'm not connected with  
them in any way) pulls the K3
Photo Black deep enough below the surface so that I'm not seeing any  
of the  reflectance differential from the surface,
even with top back lighting. Until I found that paper, I totally  
avoided glossy papers, because IMO, it's a pain
in the rear  to start spraying, not to mention a myriad of  
environmental problems with sprays and their
various compounds, and the need for a ventilated spraying booth if  
one does spray!

Clay


   >....what I've learned so far is
 > that the Photo Black ink (in particular) sits on the surface and  
has a
 > different reflectance to the paper surface and that causes the
 > 'solarized" appearance particularly where the dark and medium or  
light
 > tones meet.
 > Frank

& (I should have added to the last post) by spraying the 'shield' 2 or
3 times, you add some gloss to the print thereby lessening the
difference between the reflectance of the blacks and the rest,
reducing the 'solarized" appearance.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Clay,
Thanks for the tip on which gloss paper doesn't require spraying.
I had originally encountered this problem by choosing a highly
recommended paper (Ilford Gold Fibre Silk). I am using K2 ink (2200)
which is probably a lot worse than your K3 and may even be a problem
on the Lumijet paper too? As recommended by others here, I bought a
can of PremierArt Shield spray and just tried it out on two small
prints - I am amazed at the improvement. But I do agree with you that
it's a pain to have to use spray.
Frank

>
> Hi Frank,
> I guess my point  (although I didn't say it in exact terms), is that  
> different papers
> behave in different ways. Some, I remember from the early days with  
> Piezo inks,
> all sat right on the surface of glossy papers -- so much so that you  
> could wipe half
> the inks off with a paper towel, hours later.
> 
> The paper I mentioned, Lumijet Gloss II, ( I'm not connected with  
> them in any way) pulls the K3
> Photo Black deep enough below the surface so that I'm not seeing any  
> of the  reflectance differential from the surface,
> even with top back lighting. Until I found that paper, I totally  
> avoided glossy papers, because IMO, it's a pain
> in the rear  to start spraying, not to mention a myriad of  
> environmental problems with sprays and their
> various compounds, and the need for a ventilated spraying booth if  
> one does spray!
> 
> Clay
> 
> 
>    >....what I've learned so far is
>  > that the Photo Black ink (in particular) sits on the surface and  
> has a
>  > different reflectance to the paper surface and that causes the
>  > 'solarized" appearance particularly where the dark and medium or  
> light
>  > tones meet.
>  > Frank
> 
> & (I should have added to the last post) by spraying the 'shield' 2 or
> 3 times, you add some gloss to the print thereby lessening the
> difference between the reflectance of the blacks and the rest,
> reducing the 'solarized" appearance.
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Frank - I don't remember if I tried glossy with K2 inks, although I used
them for beta testing the 2200 Epson. When the 2400 came along,
I switched the 2200 to Piezo inks and still use them, when the printer
isn't clogged. BTW, the 2400 has never clogged, even once, in the
three years I've been using it. I don't know whether to thank the  
printer
or the K3 inks for this occurrence, but whichever, it's been the best
behaving printer I've used in the last ten years.


Posted by: "frankg_photo" frankgross@...   frankg_photo
Sun Feb 1, 2009 4:59 pm (PST)

Thanks for the tip on which gloss paper doesn't require spraying.
I had originally encountered this problem by choosing a highly
recommended paper (Ilford Gold Fibre Silk). I am using K2 ink (2200)
which is probably a lot worse than your K3 and may even be a problem
on the Lumijet paper too? 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]