Digital BW, The Print

I have been experimenting with an R1800 and MIS inks for the last few 
weeks looking for a set-up that would suit my needs for smooth carbon 
only printing on PK (mainly) and MK papers in neutral to warm tones. 

Well, after some fustration I can report that I am starting to get 
somewhere. As I have had so much help from Paul and others on this 
board I thought it only fair to report back here and share what I 
have learnt.

I am using these spongeless carts which seem to work pretty well so 
far (although I have only been using them for a few days):
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Refillable-Ink-Cartridges-R1800-R800-code-
T054X8_W0QQitemZ290220359994QQihZ019QQcategoryZ101325QQcmdZViewItemQQ_
trksidZp1742.m153.l1262

I have also ordered these ones from Hong Knog to try  as they are a 
lot cheaper and look very similar. They have not arrived yet:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=370072534668#ebayphotohosting

I currently have installed 3mk and 3pk-k4 and 2GO. For PK papers I 
use two curves, one is a 3mk,1pk, 2GO curve and the other is a 3pk 
and 2GO one. The first curve gives me neutral and the second gives me 
warm. Blending the curves gives me all points in between. For mk 
papers I use a straight 3mk curve for neutral prints but have not yet 
converged upon a warm option. Neutral pk prints get a second pass of 
GO as do some warmer prints on papers that show bronzing, GD etc.

I am getting very nice prints with this set-up. No banding and great 
dmax (3.0+) on pk papers. I really like the way multiple blacks allow 
the ink load to be ramped up on papers that will take it. My 
favourite Hahn Photo Rag Pearl can take a high load in this regard. 
With the GO 2nd pass there is no GD or bronzing at all. While the 
prints are generally smooth, there is some grain in the 3/4 tones 
(20%-45%) and I would like to try and improve this aspect. To that 
end I am going to try some dilutions on one or two of the blacks to 
see if that helps and at what compromises elsewhere. 

Paul, if you are reading this, I recall in one of your earlier posts 
that you felt that the surfectant (Photoflo) used in the Carbon 6 
base was not up to the job in 1.5pl printers. What is the problem 
with it? Does it print too rough or does it clog or is something else 
going wrong? Have you found any other surfectants or bases that would 
work? I would like to stay with the two MIS blacks and try and find 
something suitable to dilute them with. 

Any thoughts folk may have regarding dilutions to address grain in 
the 3/4 tones would also be appreciated.

Thanks and regards

Alistair

"hp9180profile" <owens@...> wrote:
>
> I have been experimenting with an R1800 and MIS inks ...

 
> Paul ... I recall in one of your earlier posts 
> that you felt that the surfectant (Photoflo) used in the Carbon 6 
> base was not up to the job in 1.5pl printers. What is the problem 
> with it? Does it print too rough ...

Yes, and it banded more than the Eboni-6 in the 1.5 test I ran.

> or does it clog ...

Clogging is not a problem with C6 base inks.

> Have you found any other surfectants ...

Add 1% Edwal LFN wetting agent (available at photo stores). With it 
1.5 pl printers appear to be within what the base can handle.

> I would like to stay with the two MIS blacks and try and find 
> something suitable to dilute them with. 

C6 base is good for matte, but for glossy it only works with the 
pigments that have an acrylic type coating and thus do not depend on 
the base for the gloss.  I have not tried it with MIS PK, but I fear 
it would just dilute the Glop and reduce the gloss.  With the HP PK, 
the gloss holds very well with the C6 base.  Consider that C6 base 
uses mostly glycerol with the water -- just like the Epson gloss 
optimizer.

Good luck with the mix.  (And keep us posted as to how those carts 
work out.)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" 
<pr_roark@...> wrote:
>
> 
> Add 1% Edwal LFN wetting agent (available at photo stores). With it 
> 1.5 pl printers appear to be within what the base can handle.

Hi Paul, thanks for your replies. I cannnot find the Edwal wetting 
agent here in the UK. Is there any particular ingredient that makes 
it suitable for our use or is it that it is hihgly concentrated? I 
can get a highly concentrated 50ml version of Photoflo here which may 
do the trick if it is in fact concentration that is required. 



> C6 base is good for matte, but for glossy it only works with the 
> pigments that have an acrylic type coating and thus do not depend 
on > the base for the gloss.  I have not tried it with MIS PK, but I 
fear 
> it would just dilute the Glop and reduce the gloss.  With the HP 
PK, 
> the gloss holds very well with the C6 base.  Consider that C6 base 
> uses mostly glycerol with the water -- just like the Epson gloss 
> optimizer.
> 
OK, I will watch out for that. Ultimately I am hoping the 2nd GLOP 
pass will deal with gloss differentials between the MK, PK and 
dilutions of same.



> Good luck with the mix.  (And keep us posted as to how those carts 
> work out.)
>
So far I am quite pleased with the Laser Design cartridges. The only 
issue so far I have had with them is knowing whether the venting 
plugs should be in or out. If I take them out the ink flows straight 
out of the cartridges down through the heads so I am guessing they 
should be in. However they need to be taken out to initially get the 
ink flowing. However twice now the ink has stopped flowing but 
started again once the vent plugs were removed for a few minutes. I 
have emailed the vendor Laser Designs but as is the way with a most 
of these suppliers, they did not rely so I feel that I am on my own 
in that regard. 

I still have not received the cartridges from Hong Kong but will 
report back on those once (if!?) received! 
 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Regards

Alistair Owens

Alistair,

 
> > Add 1% Edwal LFN wetting agent (available at photo stores). 
> > With it 1.5 pl printers appear to be within what the base 
> > can handle.

>  I cannnot find the Edwal wetting agent here in the UK.

There is a 4 oz. (116 ml) bottle that might be economical to ship 
from the U.S.  I'm now buying it in that quantity because I think 
I'll use it even with the old printers.  I can clearly see the 
superior wetting (and cleaning) abiliity of the Edwal LFN.  For 
example, the sides of containers stay much cleaner.  Ink that was 
stuck on the sides of my pipettes comes off when the 1% Edwal base is 
used.  It appears to be an excellent surfactant.

Edwal Scientific in Chicago, IL appears to be the manufacturer.  The 
distributor is a separate company -- listed on the MSDS.

> Is there any particular ingredient that makes 
> it suitable for our use or is it that it is hihgly concentrated?

The Material Safety Data Sheet is at 
http://www.digitaltruth.com/products/msds/LFNWettingAgent.pdf

Isopropyl alcohol is the largest single ingredient and often used in 
ink forumulas.  So, that might be worth a try.  The other alcohols 
are listed on the MSDS by numbers that have no meaning to me.

> I can get a highly concentrated 50ml version of Photoflo here ...

I doubt it would do any more than teh 10% Photo Flo 200 I use.  The 
most concentrated 600 version contains a different form of glycol 
that is rather toxic.

 
> > C6 base is good for matte, but for glossy it only works with the 
> > pigments that have an acrylic type coating and thus do not depend 
> > on the base for the gloss.  I have not tried it with MIS PK, 
> > but I fear it would just dilute the Glop and reduce the gloss.
> >  With the HP  PK, the gloss holds very well with the C6 base.  


> OK, I will watch out for that. Ultimately I am hoping the 2nd GLOP 
> pass will deal with gloss differentials between the MK, PK and 
> dilutions of same.


>... with the Laser Design cartridges. ...
> the venting plugs ... If I take them out the ink flows straight 
> out of the cartridges down through the heads ...

That sounds like an unacceptable design defect.

Good luck with the system.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" 
<pr_roark@...> wrote:
>
> Alistair,
> 
> There is a 4 oz. (116 ml) bottle that might be economical to ship 
> from the U.S.  I'm now buying it in that quantity because I think 
> I'll use it even with the old printers.  I can clearly see the 
> superior wetting (and cleaning) abiliity of the Edwal LFN.  

OK, sounds like it is worth ordering some. Thanks for finding it.




> 
> >... with the Laser Design cartridges. ...
> > the venting plugs ... If I take them out the ink flows straight 
> > out of the cartridges down through the heads ...
> 
> That sounds like an unacceptable design defect.

And that may be board's understatement of the year right there!

> There is a 4 oz. (116 ml) bottle that might be economical to ship 
> from the U.S.  I'm now buying it in that quantity because I think 
> I'll use it even with the old printers.  I can clearly see the 
> superior wetting (and cleaning) abiliity of the Edwal LFN.  For 
> example, the sides of containers stay much cleaner.  Ink that was 
> stuck on the sides of my pipettes comes off when the 1% Edwal base is 
> used.  It appears to be an excellent surfactant.

A little OT here but I have switched from Photo-Flo to LFN in the
darkroom when developing film. Much cleaner negatives now. They even
suggest adding a drop or two to the developer in addition to using it
in the final wash.