Digital BW, The Print

Has anybody used this "universal" inkset? I am interested in using the black ink for good Dmax on both matte and glossy papers.

Or is the black ink Dmax generated by composite inks (not K) similar to Paul Roark's numerous approaches?

Depends upon the workflow. If you use a Piezography generated curve for QTR (which I make) - its quite complex and involves several inks...  If you go your own, then its up to how you generate the black.

MPS is a gloss compatible 100% pure pigment black - that I can get up to 2.5 on glossy with it and about 1.54 to 1.6 on Photo Rag depending upon Photo Rag batches...

NK7 Matte black gets 1.64 to 1.68 on Photo Rag - so you give up about .10

regards,

Jon Cone
Piezography

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "shileshjani" <janishilesh@...> wrote:

>
> Has anybody used this "universal" inkset? I am interested in using the black ink for good Dmax on both matte and glossy papers.
> 
> Or is the black ink Dmax generated by composite inks (not K) similar to Paul Roark's numerous approaches?
>

Jon,

Thank you for this information. Is the 2.5 you report for glossy using K only? It does not require composite to hit this number?

OK, now that we know this K works fairly well with matte papers, is there any reason why it cannot be used with a color inkset such as K3 compatible? I would think all of the K3 printers would jump at the chance of using this black ink. If it is compatible with color inks, I might just try it out on my 2400.

Regards.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Cone" <jon@...> wrote:

>
> Depends upon the workflow. If you use a Piezography generated curve for QTR (which I make) - its quite complex and involves several inks...  If you go your own, then its up to how you generate the black.
> 
> MPS is a gloss compatible 100% pure pigment black - that I can get up to 2.5 on glossy with it and about 1.54 to 1.6 on Photo Rag depending upon Photo Rag batches...
> 
> NK7 Matte black gets 1.64 to 1.68 on Photo Rag - so you give up about .10
> 
> regards,
> 
> Jon Cone
> Piezography
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "shileshjani" <janishilesh@> wrote:
> >
> > Has anybody used this "universal" inkset? I am interested in using the black ink for good Dmax on both matte and glossy papers.
> > 
> > Or is the black ink Dmax generated by composite inks (not K) similar to Paul Roark's numerous approaches?
> >
>

No this is MPS Black with Piezography GO. MPS is designed to be overprinted with Piezography Gloss Optimizer.  It can hit that with or without composite - but needs GO (or a spray).

I think Epson Photo Black is more desirable for color printmakers because of its dye content - it can hit a better dMax without need for GO as a result of dye. Yes its weak on matte... 

If its longevity, I do not think longevtiy is an issue with black and white printmakers using color inks - or they would not be using color inks in the first place. So the MPS does not add anything to their mix either.  If longevity is a factor - I have some WIR i-Star metrics on MPS vs Photo Black. But its just a performance on the fade of the black position so becomes irrelevant in the overall picture. The Epson ABW shifts color rapidly even as it does not lose density (which explains the high Wilhelm results.)  B&W printed with color inks and ABW has very poor longevity performance when color shift is measured and not just density. Wilhelm of course only measures density in all of his v3.0 testing procedures.

And as just a PhotoK replacement for a color ink set to make color prints - I am not certain what advantage MPS would have over Epson Photo Black.  A matte/gloss replacement black just does not seem feasible because Epson uses the cart chip to allow the use of matte or glossy settings... 

The majority of Epson color ink customers who are using Piezography inks in conjunction with their color set have replaced the Epson MK, LK, and LLK with my Neutral K7 shades 1, 4, and 5. Some others have replaced with Selenium versions of these shades depending upon their preference for B&W. My understanding is that they are using a strong loupe and using ABW to eliminate any CMY inks. The Neutral inks also allow much better ICC profiling because its easier to create a neutral axis by using neutral blacks instead of the tinted Epson blacks. So we are selling them into CMYK shops. Most of the gloss users are just buying shades 4,5 which are thin enough to allow gloss CMYK proofing.


Maybe if you tell me by what criteria you are making decisions for a black replacement? unless I hit it with one of the above scenarios...



Best,

Jon
Piezography



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "shileshjani" <janishilesh@...> wrote:

>
> Jon,
> 
> Thank you for this information. Is the 2.5 you report for glossy using K only? It does not require composite to hit this number?
> 
> OK, now that we know this K works fairly well with matte papers, is there any reason why it cannot be used with a color inkset such as K3 compatible? I would think all of the K3 printers would jump at the chance of using this black ink. If it is compatible with color inks, I might just try it out on my 2400.
> 
> Regards.
> 
> Shilesh
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Cone" <jon@> wrote:
> >
> > Depends upon the workflow. If you use a Piezography generated curve for QTR (which I make) - its quite complex and involves several inks...  If you go your own, then its up to how you generate the black.
> > 
> > MPS is a gloss compatible 100% pure pigment black - that I can get up to 2.5 on glossy with it and about 1.54 to 1.6 on Photo Rag depending upon Photo Rag batches...
> > 
> > NK7 Matte black gets 1.64 to 1.68 on Photo Rag - so you give up about .10
> > 
> > regards,
> > 
> > Jon Cone
> > Piezography
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "shileshjani" <janishilesh@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Has anybody used this "universal" inkset? I am interested in using the black ink for good Dmax on both matte and glossy papers.
> > > 
> > > Or is the black ink Dmax generated by composite inks (not K) similar to Paul Roark's numerous approaches?
> > >
> >
>

Is it feasible to make an inkset that has both blacks installed at once? 

thanks,
Richard

At 08:43 a.m. Tuesday 16/06/2009, you wrote:
>Depends upon the workflow. If you use a Piezography generated curve for QTR (which I make) - its quite complex and involves several inks... If you go your own, then its up to how you generate the black.
>
>MPS is a gloss compatible 100% pure pigment black - that I can get up to 2.5 on glossy with it and about 1.54 to 1.6 on Photo Rag depending upon Photo Rag batches...
>
>NK7 Matte black gets 1.64 to 1.68 on Photo Rag - so you give up about .10
>
>regards,
>
>Jon Cone
>Piezography
>
>--- In <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "shileshjani" <janishilesh@...> wrote:
>>
>> Has anybody used this "universal" inkset? I am interested in using the black ink for good Dmax on both matte and glossy papers.
>> 
>> Or is the black ink Dmax generated by composite inks (not K) similar to Paul Roark's numerous approaches?
>>
>
>


____________
www.richardsmallfield.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard Smallfield <r.smallfield@...> wrote:
>
> Is it feasible to make an inkset that has both blacks installed at once? 
> 
> thanks,
> Richard
> 


In my opinion, yes. Matte, photo, k3, k4, k5, k6, etc. to the lightest shade you want. When printing on matte papers you use all inks, when printing on glossy papers you do not use the matte black. The only issue is whether you want the longevity of the matte only (carbon) inks and dilutions, or if the glossy grays will be fine for what you are printing. I'm probably not explaining it correctly, but since the photo black inks normally show up on matte papers as a lighter shade than matte black it should fall right into place in a multi black/gray workflow.

Now as to specific inksets, I'll leave it to the creators to say yes or no or not needed with our inks.

Yes it is.

For the 3800 by example and the 2880 we offer a functional matte/glossy system which includes Matte Black and MPS Black, Selenium inks and GO.  These are the only two printers for which Piezography offers full matte/glossy support.

Others are doing it on their own with StudioPrint or making their own way with QTR.

regards,

Jon Cone
Piezography 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard Smallfield <r.smallfield@...> wrote:

>
> Is it feasible to make an inkset that has both blacks installed at once? 
> 
> thanks,
> Richard
> 
> At 08:43 a.m. Tuesday 16/06/2009, you wrote:
> >Depends upon the workflow. If you use a Piezography generated curve for QTR (which I make) - its quite complex and involves several inks... If you go your own, then its up to how you generate the black.
> >
> >MPS is a gloss compatible 100% pure pigment black - that I can get up to 2.5 on glossy with it and about 1.54 to 1.6 on Photo Rag depending upon Photo Rag batches...
> >
> >NK7 Matte black gets 1.64 to 1.68 on Photo Rag - so you give up about .10
> >
> >regards,
> >
> >Jon Cone
> >Piezography
> >
> >--- In <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "shileshjani" <janishilesh@> wrote:
> >>
> >> Has anybody used this "universal" inkset? I am interested in using the black ink for good Dmax on both matte and glossy papers.
> >> 
> >> Or is the black ink Dmax generated by composite inks (not K) similar to Paul Roark's numerous approaches?
> >>
> >
> >
> 
> 
> ____________
> www.richardsmallfield.com
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>