Digital BW, The Print

> Most of you may already know about this, but I intend to make some noise about it-
> http://aardenburg-imaging.com/
> That the opening page has such a discussion of specialty B&W ink speaks volumes right off the bat. Mark developed the standard Wilhelm is now moving to, while taking little of the public credit. This is exactly the kind of independent testing we have been looking for for years, and open to as many kinds of inks and papers as his subscription level can support. He also has the first viable approach to B&W testing we've seen as an independent, Wilhelm's told us nothing of hue shift in his previous testing, very important to us B&W folks, particularly those using processes with some level of color inks involved. He already has some interesting tests relevant to this list in progress. Some of you are probably already members. I realize to have a voluntary subscription effort like this is this economy makes for a difficult future, but isn't this exactly what we need to keep things honest?
> This is extremely important work, the only impartial, thorough, and rational approach to evaluating the future of our print art since the radical switch to digital. Times are very tough, I managed to find a way to subscribe and stay alive, it's not much.
> I think we should constantly support his efforts on the forums when we discuss materials, subscribe of course at least at the minimum if at all possible, and mention we are members on our sites and blogs. We would be his support, since he can't be a constant salesman and maintain the level of integrity required to give his work and results the impartial level of integrity required for widespread acceptance.
> Thanks for listening, go join, and proudly chat up your membership... maybe he needs a certificate we can put on our sites.. a decoder ring at least?
> Tyler
> http://www.custom-digital.com/
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\ufffd in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

From: Bert Katzung <katzung1@...>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Longevity research- cross posted
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, July 27, 2009, 8:34 PM

Hi Tyler:
Thanks for the note. I am very interested in this effort, but I was 
confused and put off by the subscription procedure. On the first page, 
the cost of membership is stated to be $25. When I got to the nitty 
gritty of signing up, there were three levels of membership, starting 
with $55, not $25. At that point I had already given them a credit card 
number, assuming I was going to get billed $25. Now I don't know what's 
going to happen. Not a good experience, at least so far...
Bert



Tyler Boley wrote:
> Most of you may already know about this, but I intend to make some noise about it-
> http://aardenburg-imaging.com/
> That the opening page has such a discussion of specialty B&W ink speaks volumes right off the bat. Mark developed the standard Wilhelm is now moving to, while taking little of the public credit. This is exactly the kind of independent testing we have been looking for for years, and open to as many kinds of inks and papers as his subscription level can support. He also has the first viable approach to B&W testing we've seen as an independent, Wilhelm's told us nothing of hue shift in his previous testing, very important to us B&W folks, particularly those using processes with some level of color inks involved. He already has some interesting tests relevant to this list in progress. Some of you are probably already members. I realize to have a voluntary subscription effort like this is this economy makes for a difficult future, but isn't this exactly what we need to keep things honest?
> This is extremely important work, the only impartial, thorough, and rational approach to evaluating the future of our print art since the radical switch to digital. Times are very tough, I managed to find a way to subscribe and stay alive, it's not much.
> I think we should constantly support his efforts on the forums when we discuss materials, subscribe of course at least at the minimum if at all possible, and mention we are members on our sites and blogs. We would be his support, since he can't be a constant salesman and maintain the level of integrity required to give his work and results the impartial level of integrity required for widespread acceptance.
> Thanks for listening, go join, and proudly chat up your membership... maybe he needs a certificate we can put on our sites.. a decoder ring at least?
> Tyler
> http://www.custom-digital.com/
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>   


------------------------------------

Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
Yahoo! Groups Links





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
> I signed up for the $25 and didn't even see the other levels. Â Guess I'll go look a little further.
> Tom Baker
> --- On Mon, 7/27/09, Bert Katzung <katzung1@...> wrote:
> 
> From: Bert Katzung <katzung1@...>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Longevity research- cross posted
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, July 27, 2009, 8:34 PM
> 
> Hi Tyler:
> Thanks for the note. I am very interested in this effort, but I was 
> confused and put off by the subscription procedure. On the first page, 
> the cost of membership is stated to be $25. When I got to the nitty 
> gritty of signing up, there were three levels of membership, starting 
> with $55, not $25. At that point I had already given them a credit card 
> number, assuming I was going to get billed $25. Now I don't know what's 
> going to happen. Not a good experience, at least so far...
> Bert
> 
> 
> 
> Tyler Boley wrote:
> > Most of you may already know about this, but I intend to make some noise about it-
> > http://aardenburg-imaging.com/
> > That the opening page has such a discussion of specialty B&W ink speaks volumes right off the bat. Mark developed the standard Wilhelm is now moving to, while taking little of the public credit. This is exactly the kind of independent testing we have been looking for for years, and open to as many kinds of inks and papers as his subscription level can support. He also has the first viable approach to B&W testing we've seen as an independent, Wilhelm's told us nothing of hue shift in his previous testing, very important to us B&W folks, particularly those using processes with some level of color inks involved. He already has some interesting tests relevant to this list in progress. Some of you are probably already members. I realize to have a voluntary subscription effort like this is this economy makes for a difficult future, but isn't this exactly what we need to keep things honest?
> > This is extremely important work, the only impartial, thorough, and rational approach to evaluating the future of our print art since the radical switch to digital. Times are very tough, I managed to find a way to subscribe and stay alive, it's not much.
> > I think we should constantly support his efforts on the forums when we discuss materials, subscribe of course at least at the minimum if at all possible, and mention we are members on our sites and blogs. We would be his support, since he can't be a constant salesman and maintain the level of integrity required to give his work and results the impartial level of integrity required for widespread acceptance.
> > Thanks for listening, go join, and proudly chat up your membership... maybe he needs a certificate we can put on our sites.. a decoder ring at least?
> > Tyler
> > http://www.custom-digital.com/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> >
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Â Â Â 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

From: Greg <dfaprinting@...>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Longevity research- cross posted
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, July 30, 2009, 10:57 AM












 
 




    
                  OK, just a follow up... I have emailed Mark and found that he really only does use the sort of extended MacBeth chart for the fade testing. The other 910 patch target he uses to make sure there are no obvious printing issues. I've reviewed his test reports to see what he is doing and given him some comments that I've gathered from many people over the past 10 years of my inkjet printing and testing. All that said his tests are far and away better than anything anyone has tried to do, but I think there are still several facets for the color tests that need to be worked on. The B/W testing looks pretty good and I have no real complaints about it.



That said this guy needs our help to get to the level where he can make this work self sustaining. If you are making your living or even a decent amount of money with your printing business, the personal $25 membership is not for you. The benefits you could see from this type of testing are worth a lot more than that, pay the man what it is worth and don't take advantage of him. My $25 went in just to see what was happening, even though I could have had a free pass if I worked a connection. I may never send any prints in for testing, it just costs him too much money per run, those of you that have done some testing like this know exactly what I mean. (yes this paragraph is a guilt trip for those of you that are taking advantage of the $25 personal membership)



And finally I'm sure there are a large number of you who are thinking "Who is this idiot, what is he talking about, and why does he think he knows better?". All I can do is ask that you keep those comments to yourselves as it will quickly go beyond the focus of this group into the off topic realm.




 

      

    
    
	
	 
	
	




	




	
	


	
	
	



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: Tyler Boley <tyler@tylerboley.com>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Longevity research- cross posted
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, July 30, 2009, 1:11 PM












 
 




    
                  --- In DigitalBlackandWhit eThePrint@ yahoogroups. com, "Greg" <dfaprinting@ ...> wrote:

>

> OK, just a follow up...

...



thank you Greg. I'm still struck by how important I think Mark's work is, and by how little attention he's gotten so far. It;s interesting that from the very beginning of photography, longevity has been a top concern of all involved at every level, something we were taught about, and a big part of our decision making even as individual artists, much less providers of various services.



Now, I suspect because of the radical pradigm shift to digital, we're simply cast adrift, and the new community who are coming in as digital practitioners from the outset, have no idea this is even a longstanding issue in need of awareness.



So, even though WIR enjoys visibility and provides some level of information, we are left with Mark. Photography being produced all over the world every day and we just have Mark.

I'd like to say again, that WIR has implemented Marks iMetric standards, so clearly there is widespread acceptance.



So your suggestion that even individual artists in a position to contribute, should, is excellent.

Tyler




 

      

    
    
	
	 
	
	




	




	
	


	
	
	



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: Greg <dfaprinting@...>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Longevity research- cross posted
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, July 30, 2009, 1:57 PM


  



OK, just a follow up... I have emailed Mark and found that he really only does use the sort of extended MacBeth chart for the fade testing. The other 910 patch target he uses to make sure there are no obvious printing issues. I've reviewed his test reports to see what he is doing and given him some comments that I've gathered from many people over the past 10 years of my inkjet printing and testing. All that said his tests are far and away better than anything anyone has tried to do, but I think there are still several facets for the color tests that need to be worked on. The B/W testing looks pretty good and I have no real complaints about it.

That said this guy needs our help to get to the level where he can make this work self sustaining. If you are making your living or even a decent amount of money with your printing business, the personal $25 membership is not for you. The benefits you could see from this type of testing are worth a lot more than that, pay the man what it is worth and don't take advantage of him. My $25 went in just to see what was happening, even though I could have had a free pass if I worked a connection. I may never send any prints in for testing, it just costs him too much money per run, those of you that have done some testing like this know exactly what I mean. (yes this paragraph is a guilt trip for those of you that are taking advantage of the $25 personal membership)

And finally I'm sure there are a large number of you who are thinking "Who is this idiot, what is he talking about, and why does he think he knows better?". All I can do is ask that you keep those comments to yourselves as it will quickly go beyond the focus of this group into the off topic realm.

















      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
> Just one more thing, he does have a different bigger level of support, but I do not know the full details. I would imagine that his other level allows the use of the data. So again, if you are making a living printing (or even a good buck) and want to be able to refer clients to the longevity of your prints, please email him and see what it will cost. Please do not leave this to the paper and ink vendors to cover your papers and inks.
>

From: pr_roark <pr_roark@...>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Longevity research- cross posted
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 10:47 AM












 
 




    
                  Hi Mark,



I'm a big fan of your independent testing also.  I hope the model works for you.



>... the half-life on forum posts generating traffic to a

> particular website is probably about two days. 



If we set links to your site that might help with the searches in the long run.  This group has a lot of websites that could point to yours.



People need to know that there is more than just Wilhelm.  Getting the word out may be slow, but it'll probably happen in the long run. 



Of course, I'm also a fan of the non-profit model, and most non-profits of any size do have paid directors.  I think the non-profit model helps in getting support of patrons and volunteers, which may be what an independent testing model needs.



At any rate, hang in there.  I think the group here will do what it can.



Paul

www.PaulRoark. com 




 

      

    
    
	
	 
	
	




	




	
	


	
	
	



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: Craig Yorke <craig@...>
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Longevity research- cross posted
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 2:50 PM


Mark,

I was one of those 15 people who joined based on the post. I got more  
than $ 25.00 of value just reading what you had posted on your site.  
I am shocked that only 15 of 10000 responded, telemarketers with scam  
offers get better percentages than that!

I would be willing and happy to pay much more than $ 25.00 based on  
how important this work is. I see other posters talking about sending  
actual work in and having it tested. Surely the $ 25.00 fee does not  
cover this? I would suggest that besides the 25 dollar fee for those  
that just want to read the site and offer their financial support  
that you institute a much higher fee of $ 100.00 which gives you the  
ability to send in samples and a fee as well tied to the testing of  
each sample. Surely a few hundred dollars to be able to say to  
customers that my own combination of ink/canvas/varnish has these  
particular fade characteristics is worth that. And if I see a large  
variety of ink and paper test results I may be persuaded to change  
what materials I use.



Craig Yorke

On Jul 31, 2009, at 10:26 AM, mccormick.mark59 wrote:

> Hello to everyone,
>
> I want to thank Tyler for taking the time to raise the awareness  
> about the AaI&A digital print research program. The nature of  
> digital printing, especially inkjet, is that we no longer have a  
> narrowly defined material and process chemistry like most other  
> traditional photographic printing processes. The term I often see  
> in galleries, "archival pigmented print" sounds great but signifies  
> essentially nothing.  Mixing and matching printers, inks, and  
> papers creates unique print longevity characteristics. The only way  
> to evaluate these characteristics is to test the combinations  
> directly. And that brings forth an entirely new issue in this  
> modern digital age. The traditional funding model (ie, relying on  
> manufacturers) breaks down. What printer manufacturer wants to  
> support the testing of some other vendors' non OEM ink or paper,  
> and what small independent ink or paper supplier can compete with  
> the OEMs in R&D dollars spent on longevity testing, especially when  
> it has to test cross-platform but the OEMs don't?
>
> I'm most proud of the modern updated test methods I've developed in  
> the last several years. I have done a lot of cool research projects  
> in my carreer, but the I* color and tonal accuracy metric I  
> invented is, IMHO, the best work I have done to date.  However, it  
> may well be that the more overarching industry problem I have  
> potentially solved is that by opening an independent testing  
> program up to the end-user community, the AaI&A testing model fixes  
> the current independent lab business models which aren't able to  
> adequately address this "mix and match" era of inkjet printing.   
> Moreover, it creates a healthy balance between the self-interests  
> of the manufacturers and those of the end-user community.
>
> Now for some statistics. Please bear with me. I regret if it seems  
> like a crass commercial solicitation on my part. Tyler's cross- 
> post  a couple of days ago probably reached at least 10,000 unique  
> end-users of digital printing materials and processes. There appear  
> to be 9500 plus members in this group alone. His very kind efforts  
> on my behalf quickly brought about 15 new members to the AaI&A  
> program for which I'm very grateful. However, the half-life on  
> forum posts generating traffic to a particular website is probably  
> about two days. The funds raised from my 15 new members are barely  
> enough to cover the annual re-certification bill for my NIST  
> traceable radiometer I use to calibrate my light fade units. I'm  
> not complaining. I really am grateful to Tyler and to my new  
> members. But, the AaI&A digital print research program really needs  
> at least 2500 members at current subscription rate to close in on a  
> break even point, and at the current level of new members joining  
> it will take many years to get there.  It is definitely a "chicken  
> and egg, which comes first" problem as well. I need membership to  
> fund new tests, but I need a big database of interesting test  
> results to attract new members.  Yet this membership goal could be  
> accomplished quickly if about 1/4 of this group alone stepped up to  
> help the program in the next few months. That wishful thought is no  
> doubt very unrealistic, but is a target of 2500 eventual members  
> world-wide so unrealistic? Everywhere I turn in the photographic  
> and printmaking community, people seem to want to know some facts  
> about print longevity.  With this inherent interest in the subject  
> and a subscription rate of only $25, I don't think this membership  
> goal is unrealistic. Unfortunately, the issue for me isn't concern  
> about ultimate membership ranks. It is about time. The AaI&A  
> digital print research program will continue forward no matter what  
> (I'm very stubborn), but I will soon have to scale back my full- 
> time efforts and look for other work to make ends meet.  I can  
> manage both tasks of course, but solving this light fade testing  
> bottleneck for the photography and printmaking community  would  
> really get jump started if I can locate those 2500 people world- 
> wide sooner rather than later. And then we can move on to other  
> print permanence and image quality tests as well.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mark
> http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you  
> wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by  
> visiting this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages  
> to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed  
> from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules  
> and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the  
> group Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines”  
> in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE  
> “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL  
> NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,  
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER  
> INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL  
> BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF  
> SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE  
> THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO  
> OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR  
> CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO  
> GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Craig Yorke
President
Image House Digital Incorporated
5729 McCully Street
Halifax, NS
Canada B3K 1R4
P 1.902.482.1823
F 1.902.492.3128

See our new website at www.imagehouse.ns.ca




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

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Please follow these basic guidelines:
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
Yahoo! Groups Links






      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> i joined this morning, and agree, surely we can do better than (16).
>  
> at the risk of insulting folks, if one can afford to do their own printing, one can afford $25 a year. After all ink is more expensive let alone the paper.
>  
> regards,
> ann
>
> --- On Fri, 7/31/09, Craig Yorke <craig@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Craig Yorke <craig@...>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Longevity research- cross posted
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, July 31, 2009, 2:50 PM
>
>
> Mark,
>
> I was one of those 15 people who joined based on the post. I got more  
> than $ 25.00 of value just reading what you had posted on your site.  
> I am shocked that only 15 of 10000 responded, telemarketers with scam  
> offers get better percentages than that!
>
> I would be willing and happy to pay much more than $ 25.00 based on  
> how important this work is. I see other posters talking about sending  
> actual work in and having it tested. Surely the $ 25.00 fee does not  
> cover this? I would suggest that besides the 25 dollar fee for those  
> that just want to read the site and offer their financial support  
> that you institute a much higher fee of $ 100.00 which gives you the  
> ability to send in samples and a fee as well tied to the testing of  
> each sample. Surely a few hundred dollars to be able to say to  
> customers that my own combination of ink/canvas/varnish has these  
> particular fade characteristics is worth that. And if I see a large  
> variety of ink and paper test results I may be persuaded to change  
> what materials I use.
>
>
>
> Craig Yorke
>
> On Jul 31, 2009, at 10:26 AM, mccormick.mark59 wrote:
>
>   
>> Hello to everyone,
>>
>> I want to thank Tyler for taking the time to raise the awareness  
>> about the AaI&A digital print research program. The nature of  
>> digital printing, especially inkjet, is that we no longer have a  
>> narrowly defined material and process chemistry like most other  
>> traditional photographic printing processes. The term I often see  
>> in galleries, "archival pigmented print" sounds great but signifies  
>> essentially nothing.  Mixing and matching printers, inks, and  
>> papers creates unique print longevity characteristics. The only way  
>> to evaluate these characteristics is to test the combinations  
>> directly. And that brings forth an entirely new issue in this  
>> modern digital age. The traditional funding model (ie, relying on  
>> manufacturers) breaks down. What printer manufacturer wants to  
>> support the testing of some other vendors' non OEM ink or paper,  
>> and what small independent ink or paper supplier can compete with  
>> the OEMs in R&D dollars spent on longevity testing, especially when  
>> it has to test cross-platform but the OEMs don't?
>>
>> I'm most proud of the modern updated test methods I've developed in  
>> the last several years. I have done a lot of cool research projects  
>> in my carreer, but the I* color and tonal accuracy metric I  
>> invented is, IMHO, the best work I have done to date.  However, it  
>> may well be that the more overarching industry problem I have  
>> potentially solved is that by opening an independent testing  
>> program up to the end-user community, the AaI&A testing model fixes  
>> the current independent lab business models which aren't able to  
>> adequately address this "mix and match" era of inkjet printing.   
>> Moreover, it creates a healthy balance between the self-interests  
>> of the manufacturers and those of the end-user community.
>>
>> Now for some statistics. Please bear with me. I regret if it seems  
>> like a crass commercial solicitation on my part. Tyler's cross- 
>> post  a couple of days ago probably reached at least 10,000 unique  
>> end-users of digital printing materials and processes. There appear  
>> to be 9500 plus members in this group alone. His very kind efforts  
>> on my behalf quickly brought about 15 new members to the AaI&A  
>> program for which I'm very grateful. However, the half-life on  
>> forum posts generating traffic to a particular website is probably  
>> about two days. The funds raised from my 15 new members are barely  
>> enough to cover the annual re-certification bill for my NIST  
>> traceable radiometer I use to calibrate my light fade units. I'm  
>> not complaining. I really am grateful to Tyler and to my new  
>> members. But, the AaI&A digital print research program really needs  
>> at least 2500 members at current subscription rate to close in on a  
>> break even point, and at the current level of new members joining  
>> it will take many years to get there.  It is definitely a "chicken  
>> and egg, which comes first" problem as well. I need membership to  
>> fund new tests, but I need a big database of interesting test  
>> results to attract new members.  Yet this membership goal could be  
>> accomplished quickly if about 1/4 of this group alone stepped up to  
>> help the program in the next few months. That wishful thought is no  
>> doubt very unrealistic, but is a target of 2500 eventual members  
>> world-wide so unrealistic? Everywhere I turn in the photographic  
>> and printmaking community, people seem to want to know some facts  
>> about print longevity.  With this inherent interest in the subject  
>> and a subscription rate of only $25, I don't think this membership  
>> goal is unrealistic. Unfortunately, the issue for me isn't concern  
>> about ultimate membership ranks. It is about time. The AaI&A  
>> digital print research program will continue forward no matter what  
>> (I'm very stubborn), but I will soon have to scale back my full- 
>> time efforts and look for other work to make ends meet.  I can  
>> manage both tasks of course, but solving this light fade testing  
>> bottleneck for the photography and printmaking community  would  
>> really get jump started if I can locate those 2500 people world- 
>> wide sooner rather than later. And then we can move on to other  
>> print permanence and image quality tests as well.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Mark
>> http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
>> resources as they are often being updated.
>>
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>>
>> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you  
>> wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by  
>> visiting this same page.
>>
>> Please follow these basic guidelines:
>> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages  
>> to keep them short.
>> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or  
>> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed  
>> from the membership without notice.
>> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital  
>> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be  
>> removed from the membership.
>> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules  
>> and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the  
>> group Owner and Moderators. See \u201cGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\u201d  
>> in the Files section:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>>
>> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
>> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE  
>> \u201cOWNER\u201d AND \u201cMODERATORS\u201d OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL  
>> NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
>> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,  
>> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER  
>> INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  \u201cOWNER\u201d AND \u201cMODERATORS\u201d OF DIGITAL  
>> BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF  
>> SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE  
>> THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO  
>> OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR  
>> CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO  
>> GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE  
>> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     
>
> Craig Yorke
> President
> Image House Digital Incorporated
> 5729 McCully Street
> Halifax, NS
> Canada B3K 1R4
> P 1.902.482.1823
> F 1.902.492.3128
>
> See our new website at www.imagehouse.ns.ca
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See \u201cGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\u201d in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE \u201cOWNER\u201d AND \u201cMODERATORS\u201d OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  \u201cOWNER\u201d AND \u201cMODERATORS\u201d OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>       
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\ufffd in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>