Digital BW, The Print

Hello again, everybody.

Well, after considerable roller cleaning I finally got Alise loaded in my R1800 (see earlier post), rear manual feed. 

I then proceeded to print using QTR but not having the curve for that paper I chose the one I had been using for Premier Art Hot Press 205. It's my first print with this paper (using the 3MK method, btw). Paul has been speaking well of Alise because of its high DMax and I must say I was blown away. It's quite simply the best print I've ever pulled! It's on a sheet of 8 1/2 x 11 Alise, with about a 1/2" border all around, of a downtown (Billings, MT) building for an architect. I took the photo with a Canon Pro-1, in color at full resolution, changed it to black and white using a free Channel Mixer plugin for Photoshop Elements 2.0. That plugin comes with a Curves option as well so I could then tweak the contrast.

Haven't tried a 5 x 7 yet, however.

Thank you, Paul, for researching and recommending this paper... I'm very pleased. Is there a .qidf file for that paper, with which I could then generate the .quad file? This print looks so good that maybe the Premier Art HP205 curve is satisfactory to use. (I don't know how to make curves... maybe that's my next "learning opportunity" <G>.)

"paulmwhiting" <paulmwhiting@...> wrote:
>... Alise loaded in my R1800 (see earlier post), rear manual feed. 
>...It's quite simply the best print I've ever pulled! ...

Try the Premier Art Smooth 325 R-1800 3-MK profile.  I think PA 325 prints almost exactly like the Alise, but with a somewhat lower dmax.  I've profiled both on the 1400 with the 3-MK curves, and the linearization graphs are very parallel.  The 205 is slightly different.  All 3 use the same ink limits.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks, Paul, I'll try that... once again, I thank you for the heads up on that paper. The blacks are deep and rich, just as you said. But the rest of the tonal range remains intact as well.

I tried buying it from MIS first but they didn't stock it. Said it would take more requests to make it viable for them to list it. I like to support that company, they've been a very valuable resource for all of us... due in no small measure your support of their efforts. So I would urge those of us using Alise to request MIS to carry it. I ended up going to Atlex, they gave me good service and fast shipment. But I'd like to stay loyal to MIS.

Paul

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <pr_roark@...> wrote:

>
>  "paulmwhiting" <paulmwhiting@> wrote:
> >... Alise loaded in my R1800 (see earlier post), rear manual feed. 
> >...It's quite simply the best print I've ever pulled! ...
> 
> Try the Premier Art Smooth 325 R-1800 3-MK profile.  I think PA 325 prints almost exactly like the Alise, but with a somewhat lower dmax.  I've profiled both on the 1400 with the 3-MK curves, and the linearization graphs are very parallel.  The 205 is slightly different.  All 3 use the same ink limits.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

How does the dmax of the Alise compare with PremierArt Matte BW - aka Premium Matte? (I don't understand why they would discontinue such a good paper.)

thanks,
Richard

At 11:23 a.m. Thursday 17/09/2009, you wrote:
>"paulmwhiting" <paulmwhiting@...> wrote:
>>... Alise loaded in my R1800 (see earlier post), rear manual feed. 
>>...It's quite simply the best print I've ever pulled! ...
>
>Try the Premier Art Smooth 325 R-1800 3-MK profile. I think PA 325 prints almost exactly like the Alise, but with a somewhat lower dmax. I've profiled both on the 1400 with the 3-MK curves, and the linearization graphs are very parallel. The 205 is slightly different. All 3 use the same ink limits.
>
>Paul
>www.PaulRoark.com 

____________
http://www.richardsmallfield.com

Richard,

First, I find the names of those papers rather confusing. I've been using PremierArt Smooth Fine Art 205 Paper - is that the same paper you're asking about? That's what I've been using up till now. Whatever - I have to honestly say I've not done a side by side comparison. What I'm excited about is a subjective view, I guess. The Alise prints "seem" to have better DMax. My new batch of PremierArt Smooth Fine Art 205 Paper should arrive tomorrow, I had run out. It must not be discontinued, I saw no notice of that on Atlex, where my order was placed. I'll try to find some time to print the same image on that paper, then I'll let you know.

Perhaps Paul Roark can shed some light on this.

Paul

- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard Smallfield <r.smallfield@...> wrote:

>
> How does the dmax of the Alise compare with PremierArt Matte BW - aka Premium Matte? (I don't understand why they would discontinue such a good paper.)
> 
> thanks,
> Richard

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "paulmwhiting" <paulmwhiting@...> wrote:
>
> Richard,
> 
> First, I find the names of those papers rather confusing. I've been using PremierArt Smooth Fine Art 205 Paper - is that the same paper you're asking about? That's what I've been using up till now.

And just when you thought Epson had the corner on confusing names, Premier Imaging has replaced Matte b&w with Deluxe Presentation Matte.  Both are a brightened paper.  Smooth Fine Art is a non-brightened paper that used to be known as Premier Art Hot Press.  Or at least that's what's stuck in my head at the moment, could change at any time:)

Paul, if you are using the non-brightened Alise I would be interested in the perceived dmax between  the Alise and the Smooth Fine Art (Hot Press).  The Hot Press has been my favorite non-brightened paper for some time but it sound like it would be easy enough to switch with only a minor tweak or two to the profile.

Robert,

Glad I'm not the only one confused! But when my Premier Art Smooth Fine Art 205 paper comes today (that's what the tracking # said) I'll make a side by side comparison with the Alise, using the same image. As for a profile, see Paul Roark's earlier message, second one from the top of this thread. But if you do tweak an existing profile to work well with Alise, I wonder if you'd be willing to share it. I don't know how to do that. Thanks!

My only beef has been loading it in my R1800. I finally found a trick: when I place the sheet in the manual single sheet feeder at the rear, I spread my one hand so thumb and pinkie are as far apart as possible. Then I reach down the sheet toward the rollers as far as I can and hold the paper flat against the holder. With the other hand I nudge the paper down. Seems to work fairly well. I also take some of the curl out of the paper, it's rather pronounced. I pay special attention to flatten even more the two corners at the top, ie the last part of the sheet to leave the printer. Otherwise these corners stick up a little and get "clipped" by the moving head and pick up some ink smudges.

Have also noticed that along the paper's two of the four edges there's a very narrow (1/32 - 1/16 inch) lip where the paper has been poorly packed or something = this lip may be what's causing the loading trouble. Wonder if Atlex would exchange it.

Regards,

Paul

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "robert49brake" <robert49brake@...> wrote:

>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "paulmwhiting" <paulmwhiting@> wrote:
> >
> > Richard,
> > 
> > First, I find the names of those papers rather confusing. I've been using PremierArt Smooth Fine Art 205 Paper - is that the same paper you're asking about? That's what I've been using up till now.
> 
> And just when you thought Epson had the corner on confusing names, Premier Imaging has replaced Matte b&w with Deluxe Presentation Matte.  Both are a brightened paper.  Smooth Fine Art is a non-brightened paper that used to be known as Premier Art Hot Press.  Or at least that's what's stuck in my head at the moment, could change at any time:)
> 
> Paul, if you are using the non-brightened Alise I would be interested in the perceived dmax between  the Alise and the Smooth Fine Art (Hot Press).  The Hot Press has been my favorite non-brightened paper for some time but it sound like it would be easy enough to switch with only a minor tweak or two to the profile.
>

Hi Paul,

> But when my Premier Art Smooth Fine Art 205 paper comes today I'll  
> make a side by side comparison with the Alise, using the same image.

Very interested in hearing the results on any matte paper that has a  
"high" D-Max.

Jim

Richard Smallfield <r.smallfield@...> wrote:
>
> How does the dmax of the Alise compare with PremierArt Matte BW - aka Premium Matte?

The Alise dmax is higher than the old PA Matte BW, which was very good.

The PA Matte BW was an alpha cellulose based paper that was not considered "fine art" quality by some.

The PA Smooth (Hot Press) papers like the 205 and 325 are un-brightened papers with a cotton base.  The 205 is also sold by Epson as "Premier Art Scrapbook" paper.  It has been claimed by Epson to be its most archival paper.  In my fade tests I think it -- or rather the images on it -- have done slightly better than any other paper.

Premier Art Smooth BW is the same base, but with brighteners in the coating.  The BW, however, has a better dmax than the 205.  The 325 also usually has a better dmax -- sometimes hitting 1.69.  This suggests to me that there are some differences among these papers.

I've never been told whether the Alise uses the same base as these other papers.  It is cotton, but beyond that I'm not sure what the paper base similarities or differences are.  The coating is different than the PA Smooth BW, having a delta Lab B with carbon that is more typical of standard inkjet papers -- being more than that with the Smooth base papers.  This is unfortunate from my perspective, but the PA Smooth BW has an adequate dmax.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 



 (I don't understand why they would discontinue such a good paper.)

> 
> thanks,
> Richard
> 
> At 11:23 a.m. Thursday 17/09/2009, you wrote:
> >"paulmwhiting" <paulmwhiting@> wrote:
> >>... Alise loaded in my R1800 (see earlier post), rear manual feed. 
> >>...It's quite simply the best print I've ever pulled! ...
> >
> >Try the Premier Art Smooth 325 R-1800 3-MK profile. I think PA 325 prints almost exactly like the Alise, but with a somewhat lower dmax. I've profiled both on the 1400 with the 3-MK curves, and the linearization graphs are very parallel. The 205 is slightly different. All 3 use the same ink limits.
> >
> >Paul
> >www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> ____________
> http://www.richardsmallfield.com
>

And what about the color of this paper compared to the PA smooth, does it look cooler, warmer, the same...?

Dario

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <pr_roark@...> wrote:

> I've never been told whether the Alise uses the same base as these other papers.  It is cotton, but beyond that I'm not sure what the paper base similarities or differences are.....

Hello all.
Is this the Alise you're talking about?
http://www.atlex.com/premier/fine-art-smooth-alise-250-300.htm
best,André

Yes... and note that there are two: photo and museum. The photo variety uses an OBA (Optical Brightening Agent) and the museum type does not. So the photo type has a brighter base and the museum type is warmer. Some feel OBAs affect the longevity of the print, or at least that whiteness can fade over a long period of time. In normal indoor lighting the difference in "whiteness" is less noticeable - the photo type appears brighter under natural outdoor light which contains more in the UV spectrum. That's my understanding, at any rate.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "andrevallejo" <vallejodasilva@...> wrote:

>
> Hello all.
> Is this the Alise you're talking about?
> http://www.atlex.com/premier/fine-art-smooth-alise-250-300.htm
> best,André
>

PS: forgot to mention: I chose to go the museum type route.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "paulmwhiting" <paulmwhiting@...> wrote:

>
> Yes... and note that there are two: photo and museum. The photo variety uses an OBA (Optical Brightening Agent) and the museum type does not. So the photo type has a brighter base and the museum type is warmer. Some feel OBAs affect the longevity of the print, or at least that whiteness can fade over a long period of time. In normal indoor lighting the difference in "whiteness" is less noticeable - the photo type appears brighter under natural outdoor light which contains more in the UV spectrum. That's my understanding, at any rate.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "andrevallejo" <vallejodasilva@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello all.
> > Is this the Alise you're talking about?
> > http://www.atlex.com/premier/fine-art-smooth-alise-250-300.htm
> > best,André
> >
>

Hi Paul,
have you measured a difference in dmax between the photo and museum versions of Alise?

That aside, I find the increased gamut of brightened papers can give an illusion of having greater dmax than natural papers because there is more tonal difference between the highlights and blacks.

thanks,
Richard
____________
http://www.richardsmallfield.com

Hi Richard,

Well, the truth is, I haven't tried the photo version - just the museum variety. And even if I did I have no way to measure the difference with any kind of instrumentation. It would strictly be an eyeball call. But again, from what I've gathered from Paul Roark and others, with internal lighting the difference wouldn't be as noticeable because the photo white would be more noticeable in daylight (due to the UV) and then, as you say, the DMax would appear to be deeper. I hope Paul jumps in if I'm wrong.

My FedEx shipment of Premier Art Fine Art (fka Premier Art Smooth Hot Press Fine Art apparently) just arrived - someone earlier asked how that compared with the Alise. I'll run some prints tomorrow am when I'm more bright-eyed and bushy-tailed. Stay tuned.

Paul

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard Smallfield <r.smallfield@...> wrote:

>
> Hi Paul,
> have you measured a difference in dmax between the photo and museum versions of Alise?
> 
> That aside, I find the increased gamut of brightened papers can give an illusion of having greater dmax than natural papers because there is more tonal difference between the highlights and blacks.
> 
> thanks,
> Richard
> ____________
> http://www.richardsmallfield.com
>

Richard and Jim,

Well, this am I printed on the PremierArt Fine Art 205 (apparently was previously called PremierArt Smooth Hot Press Fine Art 205) and looked at it side by side with the PremieArt Alise Museum Grade Natural White 260) and I couldn't see much difference. Actually I preferred the former, there was better shadow detail but the blacks seemed just as black. There were some very tiny white specks in the Alise perhaps I should've dusted it off first with my drafting brush. Also I was using the PremierArt Fine Art 305 profile for the Alise, Paul said that was the closes match. Maybe with some tweaking of the profile there might have been better shadow detail. Finally, the PremierArt Fine Art 205 was a lot easier to load.

Hope this is helpful,

Paul

 --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Richard Smallfield <r.smallfield@...> wrote:

>
> Hi Paul,
> have you measured a difference in dmax between the photo and museum versions of Alise?
> 
> That aside, I find the increased gamut of brightened papers can give an illusion of having greater dmax than natural papers because there is more tonal difference between the highlights and blacks.
> 
> thanks,
> Richard
> ____________
> http://www.richardsmallfield.com
>