Digital BW, The Print

Based greatly on info derived from my searching this group's posts, I have just purchased a new Epson 1400 printer, and am trying to decide which B&W inkset to go with it; the provided color inks are still unwrapped.

Although I am quite happy w/ my 8-cart Canon iP8500 for color, its' B&W photo output is unacceptable. As I shoot film (color transparency and B&W neg) and scan myself using a KM 5400II (except for 4X5), it is my intention to dedicate the new printer to B&W photo printing as this is an extremely important part of my photography, and my darkroom project is largely unfinished. Being an old guy, I have always appreciated glossy B&W prints, but still wish to be able to print matte well, and want this digital capability. 

The choice between UT14 and Eboni-1400 w/ HP-PK seems a difficult one as I have no visual reference with which to compare the related product. And perhaps there are other choices I should consider, even the Cone inks, within some sort of reasonable budget.

All comments welcome and appreciated.

Thanks, andy

Andy..

IMHO, your best bet is to go with MIS UT-14 inks..buy bulk 4 oz bottles and refill them yourself..using paul Roark's curves available from the MIS site, will get you well on your way..
You may also consider getting "QTR" (quadtone-rip) fo more variety of tones..It's a simple $50 download of shareware..
It's a great printer, I actually have 2 of them..One dedidated to UT-14 B&W, and the other to Lyson XG (Claria-Clone) color dyes..I've been using the UT-14 since last November without a hitch, and got one for color a fwe months ago..Again..No problems..

Good luck in your ink choice!

Eddie


Eddie Wiseman
J&M Industries LLC
T 978-474-0103
F 978-474-8023
email: pahts@...

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: bessette_andy 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 1:58 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] 1400 inkset choice--my first post as a new member


    Based greatly on info derived from my searching this group's posts, I have just purchased a new Epson 1400 printer, and am trying to decide which B&W inkset to go with it; the provided color inks are still unwrapped.

  Although I am quite happy w/ my 8-cart Canon iP8500 for color, its' B&W photo output is unacceptable. As I shoot film (color transparency and B&W neg) and scan myself using a KM 5400II (except for 4X5), it is my intention to dedicate the new printer to B&W photo printing as this is an extremely important part of my photography, and my darkroom project is largely unfinished. Being an old guy, I have always appreciated glossy B&W prints, but still wish to be able to print matte well, and want this digital capability. 

  The choice between UT14 and Eboni-1400 w/ HP-PK seems a difficult one as I have no visual reference with which to compare the related product. And perhaps there are other choices I should consider, even the Cone inks, within some sort of reasonable budget.

  All comments welcome and appreciated.

  Thanks, andy



  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I just began using this combo, and I love the results. Deep , rich blacks, smooth tones and lots of detail. Try Ilford Gold Silk for glossy, I guess you'll feel at home. As for matte, I just  tested a sample pack from Premier and results are awsome. And of course there's always Hanhemule Photo Rag to use...
The only thing I can't figure out is how to make the printer spray the GLOP over the print using QTRip...
André

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "bessette_andy" <bessette_andy@...> wrote:

>
> Based greatly on info derived from my searching this group's posts, I have just purchased a new Epson 1400 printer, and am trying to decide which B&W inkset to go with it; the provided color inks are still unwrapped.
> 
> Although I am quite happy w/ my 8-cart Canon iP8500 for color, its' B&W photo output is unacceptable. As I shoot film (color transparency and B&W neg) and scan myself using a KM 5400II (except for 4X5), it is my intention to dedicate the new printer to B&W photo printing as this is an extremely important part of my photography, and my darkroom project is largely unfinished. Being an old guy, I have always appreciated glossy B&W prints, but still wish to be able to print matte well, and want this digital capability. 
> 
> The choice between UT14 and Eboni-1400 w/ HP-PK seems a difficult one as I have no visual reference with which to compare the related product. And perhaps there are other choices I should consider, even the Cone inks, within some sort of reasonable budget.
> 
> All comments welcome and appreciated.
> 
> Thanks, andy
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "andrevallejo" <vallejodasilva@...> wrote:
>

> The only thing I can't figure out is how to make the printer spray the GLOP over the print using QTRip...

Here is a method for overcoating that will work with a glop channel using a Mac, there may be some adjustments needed for Windows.  In PS open a new 360 Pixel/inch, white background, 16 bit,  rgb image that is the same size as the  print you want to over coat.  Add a Levels Adjustment Layer  and change the 255 output to 254.  (QTR sees white 255 as no ink).    Save that image and use it later to "print" glop over another image

Now open any QTR profile for your printer.  They will be the txt files located under Applications>QuadTone RIP>Profiles>(your QTR printer name)  Keep the line that says N_OF_INKS=.  Set the default ink limit to =100.  Go through the other Limit/Boost settings and change all to =0 except the channel that is being used for the Glop, change that to =100.  

Disable every other setting that follows in the profile.  You can do this quickly by going line by line and erasing everything to the right of each = sign.  If a value needs to be in the profile, QTR will automatically add a mid value back in and they will have no effect.

After all of the TONER sections add the line:

CURVE_(X)="0;100 100;100"""

Where X equals the channel that contains the Glop.  For example:

CURVE_M="0;100 100;100"""

assumes that the Glop is in the Magenta channel position and that curve will add 100% glop over the entire image.  A curve of ="0;0 100;100"""  would add no glop in the highest highlights and ramp up on a diagonal line to 100% glop at the black end.

 Similarly a curve of ="0;60 100;60""" would add 60% glop across the entire image.  The rule that must be applied is: immediately after the = sign is " (open quote) followed by the first point, 0 in this case,  followed by a ; (semicolon) followed by the second axis value, 60 in this case, followed by a single space, followed by the next point, 100 in this case, ; ( semicolon), second axis value, 60 in this case, followed immediately by triple end quotes """

Any number of points can be added on the curve as long as the format is followed ie:  ="0;100 50;80 100;30"""

Now save the text file with a name particular to the curve.  Remember to keep the Name of the printer first and text to follow with spaces taken up by _ (underscores)  As in this example for an R1800:

R1800_GLOP_100_FULL.txt

Save that file in the QTR folder for that printer, run the Install command for that folder.  You should then have installed that profile for that printer.  Restart PS to install the profile in PS.

Open your blank image in PS and print as you would for QTR selecting the glop profile from the drop down list.

Great idea, I was looking for a way to add Glop for glossy paper.
It's even easier on PC using curve creator.  If you spray glop after the print was printed out than it can be also be used as gray ink, for 1400 it's yellow ink, for gray ink it's easier to add a curve using "curve creator".
So in curve creator for yellow position select "load curve",then click on "curve",  windows opens, click on "point list", enter values.
I think the shape of the curve doesn't matter if we going to use it to print a blank image with RGB value 254. But changing the maximum value we can control amount of glop, so if we make curve "0,100  100,100" we spraying 100% glop, if the curve is "0,50  100,50" then - 50%.

Doing it this way we cover all print with layer of glop. I'm not sure it makes sense to add glop to areas with dark tones, glop is mainly needed in light areas where is no or little ink. We can achieve this by printing original image ( not blank image) second time with glop only. This time glop should be used as toner with the curve. The curve should have values "0, 100  100,0" - meaning it will supply max amount of glop for areas with minimum amount of ink and min amount of glop for dark areas. The curve can be created in Photoshop and used in the curve creator by going to "toner curve" tab and clicking on "browse" button. Also in the same manner glop can be added during first printing, so there is no need to print the second time.

UT-14 is great set, very versatile and gives great print quality. 

Hope this helps,

Jacob Mann
website: http://www.photo3dart.com
blog: http://photo3dart.com/wordpress

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jacob" <jacob@...> wrote:

> Doing it this way we cover all print with layer of glop. I'm not sure it makes sense to add glop to areas with dark tones, glop is mainly needed in light areas where is no or little ink. 

Yes, this is for an overcoat after printing.  In Paul Roark's website there is info on different types of glop printing and it is geared toward Windows.  With the Mac method of editing the text version of the profile you can add a curve that lays down a glop channel anywhere you want it during the initial print or later as an overcoat.  I use both methods depending on the paper and sometimes do both.  I'm sure the QUI interface can do the same I'm just not familiar with it.  I find that putting the glop where you want it during the initial print works for gloss differential but for bronzing the overcoat works best.

It worked fine for me in MacOS and Ilford Gold Silk,tks Robert for the tip.
Now,is GLOP suposed to be applied this way,or it can be applied ön the fly"as we print the image? In that case I guess is only a matter of editing the corrspoinding profile,right?
And what about Jacob's considerations on selective applying Glop on midtones and highlights only? I don't really understand GLOP's basics, all I know is that it serves as a protection, enhances Dmax and diminishes bronzing...

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "robert49brake" <robert49brake@...> wrote:

>
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "andrevallejo" <vallejodasilva@> wrote:
> >
> 
> > The only thing I can't figure out is how to make the printer spray the GLOP over the print using QTRip...
> 
> Here is a method for overcoating that will work with a glop channel using a Mac, there may be some adjustments needed for Windows.  In PS open a new 360 Pixel/inch, white background, 16 bit,  rgb image that is the same size as the  print you want to over coat.  Add a Levels Adjustment Layer  and change the 255 output to 254.  (QTR sees white 255 as no ink).    Save that image and use it later to "print" glop over another image
> 
> Now open any QTR profile for your printer.  They will be the txt files located under Applications>QuadTone RIP>Profiles>(your QTR printer name)  Keep the line that says N_OF_INKS=.  Set the default ink limit to =100.  Go through the other Limit/Boost settings and change all to =0 except the channel that is being used for the Glop, change that to =100.  
> 
> Disable every other setting that follows in the profile.  You can do this quickly by going line by line and erasing everything to the right of each = sign.  If a value needs to be in the profile, QTR will automatically add a mid value back in and they will have no effect.
> 
> After all of the TONER sections add the line:
> 
> CURVE_(X)="0;100 100;100"""
> 
> Where X equals the channel that contains the Glop.  For example:
> 
> CURVE_M="0;100 100;100"""
> 
> assumes that the Glop is in the Magenta channel position and that curve will add 100% glop over the entire image.  A curve of ="0;0 100;100"""  would add no glop in the highest highlights and ramp up on a diagonal line to 100% glop at the black end.
> 
>  Similarly a curve of ="0;60 100;60""" would add 60% glop across the entire image.  The rule that must be applied is: immediately after the = sign is " (open quote) followed by the first point, 0 in this case,  followed by a ; (semicolon) followed by the second axis value, 60 in this case, followed by a single space, followed by the next point, 100 in this case, ; ( semicolon), second axis value, 60 in this case, followed immediately by triple end quotes """
> 
> Any number of points can be added on the curve as long as the format is followed ie:  ="0;100 50;80 100;30"""
> 
> Now save the text file with a name particular to the curve.  Remember to keep the Name of the printer first and text to follow with spaces taken up by _ (underscores)  As in this example for an R1800:
> 
> R1800_GLOP_100_FULL.txt
> 
> Save that file in the QTR folder for that printer, run the Install command for that folder.  You should then have installed that profile for that printer.  Restart PS to install the profile in PS.
> 
> Open your blank image in PS and print as you would for QTR selecting the glop profile from the drop down list.
>

Just realized that 100% overcoat consumes LOTS of GLOP...do you think a 40 or 50% curve makes a very different effect? Like "0;50 100;50"""...

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "robert49brake" <robert49brake@...> wrote:

>
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m, "Jacob" <jacob@> wrote:
> 
> > Doing it this way we cover all print with layer of glop. I'm not sure it makes sense to add glop to areas with dark tones, glop is mainly needed in light areas where is no or little ink. 
> 
> Yes, this is for an overcoat after printing.  In Paul Roark's website there is info on different types of glop printing and it is geared toward Windows.  With the Mac method of editing the text version of the profile you can add a curve that lays down a glop channel anywhere you want it during the initial print or later as an overcoat.  I use both methods depending on the paper and sometimes do both.  I'm sure the QUI interface can do the same I'm just not familiar with it.  I find that putting the glop where you want it during the initial print works for gloss differential but for bronzing the overcoat works best.
>

<<<< I find that putting the glop where you want it during the initial <<<<   print works for gloss differential but for bronzing the overcoat <<<  works best.

I think here was the answer, I didn't know that.

Also keep in mind that Paul advised to use glop as needed, I printed on Hahnemuhle Baryta and didn't see any need to use glop at all. It also depends on your image. 

Try also matte paper, you'll be surprised how good are the prints on matter with UT-14.

Jacob

Oh, I did matte,wonderful prints...Premier sample pack that I tested gave me excellent prints!

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jacob" <jacob@...> wrote:

>
> <<<< I find that putting the glop where you want it during the initial <<<<   print works for gloss differential but for bronzing the overcoat <<<  works best.
> 
> I think here was the answer, I didn't know that.
> 
> Also keep in mind that Paul advised to use glop as needed, I printed on Hahnemuhle Baryta and didn't see any need to use glop at all. It also depends on your image. 
> 
> Try also matte paper, you'll be surprised how good are the prints on matter with UT-14.
> 
> Jacob
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "andrevallejo" <vallejodasilva@...> wrote:
>
> Just realized that 100% overcoat consumes LOTS of GLOP...do you think a 40 or 50% curve makes a very different effect? Like "0;50 100;50"""...

Sorry André; the example was meant to be more illustrative of the curve process than a fixed curve.  Yes, I would start at a lower setting and work up until you find what coats the paper smoothly.  I found papers to differ greatly in how much glop they will absorb without puddling.  If you have a channel dedicated to glop in your inkset (I am not using the UT14) you can print a curve that puts glop only in the highlights during the first print which may also allow you to lower the over coat if one is needed  I use something like 0;80 10;26 30;0 100;0  to lay heavy glop in the highlights then taper off to nothing by 30%.  This works for gloss differential but won't work for mid-tone bronzing if that is an additional problem.  For that you will need a second coat and that will vary paper to paper.

I'm also think we'll find that the GLOPs vary quite a bit.  I initially used some epson glop with good results, I then switched to MIS glop which didn't seem to cover as well.  I have some new Epson Glop that I am going to put back in and give it a try now that I am more familiar with the inkset I am using.  I was looking at the piezography  forum and they are starting to do  overcoating for glossy papers.  It looks like they have designed their own glop formula and in over coating they are using a dedicated glop printer with multiple channels to get smoothness while lowering the glop level.  Makes sense.

I'll go this way.Tks again!

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "robert49brake" <robert49brake@...> wrote:

>
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "andrevallejo" <vallejodasilva@> wrote:
> >
> > Just realized that 100% overcoat consumes LOTS of GLOP...do you think a 40 or 50% curve makes a very different effect? Like "0;50 100;50"""...
> 
> Sorry André; the example was meant to be more illustrative of the curve process than a fixed curve.  Yes, I would start at a lower setting and work up until you find what coats the paper smoothly.  I found papers to differ greatly in how much glop they will absorb without puddling.  If you have a channel dedicated to glop in your inkset (I am not using the UT14) you can print a curve that puts glop only in the highlights during the first print which may also allow you to lower the over coat if one is needed  I use something like 0;80 10;26 30;0 100;0  to lay heavy glop in the highlights then taper off to nothing by 30%.  This works for gloss differential but won't work for mid-tone bronzing if that is an additional problem.  For that you will need a second coat and that will vary paper to paper.
> 
> I'm also think we'll find that the GLOPs vary quite a bit.  I initially used some epson glop with good results, I then switched to MIS glop which didn't seem to cover as well.  I have some new Epson Glop that I am going to put back in and give it a try now that I am more familiar with the inkset I am using.  I was looking at the piezography  forum and they are starting to do  overcoating for glossy papers.  It looks like they have designed their own glop formula and in over coating they are using a dedicated glop printer with multiple channels to get smoothness while lowering the glop level.  Makes sense.
>