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Piezo Driver /Cone /MIS FS Inkset Comparison

Piezo Driver /Cone /MIS FS Inkset Comparison

2002-02-17 by wolfkphotos

I've just completed a comparative test between the Cone inks and the 
MIS FS inks using the Piezo driver that I thought might be of interest 
to this forum. I'm shutting down my darkroom and want to see which ink 
set would be preferable before converting my 1200 to a CIS.
 
I shoot editorial and corporate, and sell the B&W's not as "art" 
prints, but as the end product of the commissioned shoot. I've compared 
digital vs wet, and digital is definitely the way to go, hence my 
comparison of the two ink sets.

I originally started with the Cone inks / Piezo driver, and created a 
number of very lovely 12x12 prints. I then switched to a cart of the 
MIS FS inks, and reprinted a number of the same prints (3 actually, of 
varying subject matter), without changing the original files in any way 
to see just how the MIS inks worked with the Piezo software and paper 
profiles
.
I was very pleasantly surprised to see how well the MIS inks worked 
with the Piezo- a minute tweaking of gamma and contrast, (and I do mean 
minute) was all it took to align the two ink sets.

I then presented the three pairs of prints to the close scrutiny of 4 
people (separately, I might add) with wide experience looking at B&W 
prints, and asked them which they preferred, and why, without informing 
them what the variables were. We also examined them under three 
different light sources- daylight, tungsten, and fluorescent to see if 
metamerism would prove a deciding factor.

The results were quite interesting in that they were absolutely 
unanimous! Everyone picked the same two photos, under all viewing 
conditions, that were printed with the MIS inks, and everyone, 
including myself, preferred 1 particular photo as printed with the Cone 
inks.
 
Objectively, everyone commented that the Cone inks were warmer, 
shifting to the yellow / greens, while the MIS were colder, leaning 
towards the purples in the mid to darker tones, more like a traditional 
fiber print that had been slightly selenium toned. Everyone found the 
Cone inks far too green under fluorescent lighting, and best when 
viewed under tungsten, while the MIS inks displayed little color shift 
under the different light sources.

Subjectively, the comments were that the subject matter was what made 
the difference with the one Cone ink print that everyone preferred, it 
again being unanimous that that particular image worked best with a 
warm look. Comments about the other two photos were that the MIS 
exhibited more "depth" and had more "snap" than the Cone versions.

When I explained what it was we had been looking at, and gave my judges 
a breakdown of the cost differential between the two ink sets, the 
opinions were again unanimous- none of my judges, and I'm including 
myself in this group now, could justify the considerable price 
difference of the Cone inks. All were actually quite shocked that there 
could be that great a difference in cost, and wondered if perhaps there 
was some 'secret ingredient' to the Cone inks, and all pressed their 
noses to the prints again to see if there was something they had 
missed! 

On a technical note, I had been experiencing very fine horizontal 
banding with the Cone inks that no amount of alcohol / windex / 
genuflection could eliminate. I ran a control strip (21 step gray 
scale) before and after changing the Cone carts with the MIS, and the 
banding was evident in both. However, after printing 4 12x12's and then 
running another control, the banding had cleared! The MIS inks had 
somehow purged the heads, and to date my jets have stayed clear.

I have not included the archival issues between the two ink sets as a 
criteria since 90% of my work is for current use rather than exhibition 
or display, but if it can be proven that one ink set is clearly more 
permanent than the other then this would probably prove to be the 
determining factor.

Regards,

Wolf Kutnahorsky.

Re: [Digital BW] Piezo Driver /Cone /MIS FS Inkset Comparison

2002-02-17 by sdmey4@aol.com

In a message dated 02/17/2002 8:57:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
wolfkutnahorskyphotos@... writes:

Snip>
> Everyone found the 
> Cone inks far too green under fluorescent lighting, and best when 
> viewed under tungsten, while the MIS inks displayed little color shift 
> under the different light sources.
> Snip>
Wolf! Thank you for your in depth comparison MIS vs. Piezo Inks! I would have 
to concur with your report. I can add that paper does make a difference in 
the tone when viewing under florescent lights. My ex favorite paper "Orwell" 
was the worst as far as green tint with both piezo and MIS FS inks. Piezo 
being much worse! Especially noticeable if the image featured lighter tones. 
Images featuring dark tones and shadow detail I didn't find them 
objectionable under florescence with either ink set. This is on Orwell paper! 
Switching to Wells River there was a marked improvement in the perceived 
green tint seen under florescent lighting With both inksets. My final 
combination for florescent lighting is Photo Rag with MIS FullSpectrum Inks. 
Absolutely no green under any light is my goal!
I hadn't given florescent lighting much thought until I exhibited 15 Piezo & 
MIS prints along with two other silver printers in a gallery that had mixed 
lighting and florecents in some areas. Mine looked very greenish especially 
hanging next to dead neutral silver prints! I was sick that I spent the money 
on the exhibit and even flew down there only to see my greenish prints 
looking amateurish compared to the Silver prints. Live and learn!
I find Find MIS FS inks much friendlier under florecents on all papers. Even 
the warm Piezo Sumerset enhanced prints look greenish under florecents. If 
one is 
selling prints they will end up in florescent light at some point, office 
spaces, commercial buildings are not going to have daylight balanced 
florecents in there, are they? I suggest printers check there work under 
florecents, If it looks good under these garish lights then it will probably 
look good under all lighting conditions. Again my observations are based on 
my images, most featuring lighter tones, and that makes the print reflect the 
color of the viewing light more readily seen.
Very nice report, Wolf! I've been waiting for this one.
Another note, I can also say I know another user of Piezo inks that gets dead 
neutral prints in florecent lighting on Wells River, but he uses Adobe 
pressready Working in CMYK for maximum control of the ink.
Steve Meyers



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Piezo Driver /Cone /MIS FS Inkset Comparison

2002-02-17 by wolfkphotos

For everyone's info, I neglected to say that my comparison test was 
conducted using Epson archival matt only. I did run a few samples of 
conetech and somerset papers just to see how the paper profiles held up 
and they were uniformly slightly dark and slightly flat, leading me to 
believe that 1 custom curve adjustment will probably do the trick in 
order to use the FS inks with the Piezo drivers.

I completely concur with the opinion that one should probably judge 
prints under flourescent lighting as this is when they will appear at 
their worst. Not having control of the final viewing conditions, and in 
all probability, at some time or other, given that your prints WILL be 
viewed under flourescent conditions, one should take this factor as a 
serious consideration when chosing paper / ink combinations. 
Particularily if they are to be viewed in proximity with other 
photographic media!

Regards

Wolf Kutnahorsky

[Digital BW] Piezo Driver /Cone /MIS FS Inkset Comparison

2002-02-17 by Paul Roark

Wolf wrote:

>I've just completed a comparative test between the Cone inks and the
>MIS FS inks using the Piezo driver ...

>I originally started with the Cone inks / Piezo driver, and ...
>then switched to a cart of the MIS FS inks,...
>...the MIS inks worked with ... a minute tweaking of gamma and
>contrast, (and I do mean minute)...

If the MIS FS inks were purchased more than a month ago, they were probably
the originals, which were just a hair too light in the magenta and yellow
positions.  They were re-formulated to be closer to Piezo inks just
recently.  (Just the densities/dilutions were changed slightly.)

>... none of my judges, ... could justify the considerable price
>difference of the Cone inks. All were actually quite shocked that there
>could be that great a difference in cost, and wondered if perhaps there
>was some 'secret ingredient' to the Cone inks, ...

Jon Cone claims that his costs are higher.  My speculation is that he is not
mixing the inks himself and is stuck with a contract that has him paying an
intermediary way too much.

MIS buys the ink in very large quantities and mixes it.  That holds the
costs way down.

>... if it can be proven that one ink set is clearly more
>permanent than the other then this would probably prove to be the
>determining factor.

My tests indicate the MIS inks are more fade resistant.  The Piezo inks,
according to my tests and statements from the sellers, have some dyes in
them.  The MIS FS inks are straight dilutions of a black ink, with no dyes
added.  That is probably the main difference.  The black inks used by the
two companies appear to be so close that I think they are probably the same
ink.  All of these inks come from large chemical companies, and these
resellers are not inclined to disclose their sources.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Piezo Driver /Cone /MIS FS Inkset Comparison

2002-02-17 by wolfkphotos

> If the MIS FS inks were purchased more than a month ago, they were probably
> the originals, which were just a hair too light in the magenta and yellow
> positions.  They were re-formulated to be closer to Piezo inks just
> recently.  (Just the densities/dilutions were changed slightly.)


Paul,

 I ordered the inks last week, receiving them on Friday, but of course, 
who knows how long they have been in stock.

Regards,
Wolf.

Re: [Digital BW] Piezo Driver /Cone /MIS FS Inkset Comparison

2002-02-17 by toomagenta@aol.com

In a message dated 2/17/2002 1:10:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, sdmey4@... 
writes:


>  I can also say I know another user of Piezo inks that gets dead 
> neutral prints in florecent lighting on Wells River, but he uses Adobe 
> pressready Working in CMYK for maximum control of the ink.
> 

Is the piezo driver being used by this printer?
George J Kunze


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Piezo Driver /Cone /MIS FS Inkset Comparison

2002-02-17 by sdmey4@aol.com

No, the piezo driver is not used! PressReady takes over the job of laying 
down the ink as in RIP fashion. Individual control over 4 inks. Rather than 
let the Piezo or Epson driver do it for you, the press ready operater decides 
how it will be done. Manual separation. Try it sometime, when you have a 
years worth of free time ;0)
Steve M.


> In a message dated 2/17/2002 1:10:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> sdmey4@... 
> writes:
> 
> 
> >  I can also say I know another user of Piezo inks that gets dead 
> > neutral prints in florecent lighting on Wells River, but he uses Adobe 
> > pressready Working in CMYK for maximum control of the ink.
> > 
> In a message dated 02/17/2002 1:45:17 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
> toomagenta@... writes:
> Is the piezo driver being used by this printer?
> George J Kunze
> 
> 
> 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Piezo Driver /Cone /MIS FS Inkset Comparison

2002-02-17 by sdmey4@aol.com

In a message dated 02/17/2002 1:45:17 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
toomagenta@... writes:


> >  I can also say I know another user of Piezo inks that gets dead 
> > neutral prints in florecent lighting on Wells River, but he uses Adobe 
> > pressready Working in CMYK for maximum control of the ink.
> > 
> With Manual separation and a rip such as Press Ready, a skilled operator 
> can remove more of the offending lighter toned inks that might show green 
> tints from the image without them being noticed. Files are in CMYK.
> The whole thing is a lot of work, hense the birth of the piezo driver. 
> Tyler B.  is very skilled at it and has paid the price to learn this 
> technique.
> Steve M.








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Piezo Driver /Cone /MIS FS Inkset Comparison

2002-02-18 by toomagenta@aol.com

In a message dated 2/17/2002 5:21:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, sdmey4@... 
writes:


> Rather than 
> let the Piezo or Epson driver do it for you, the press ready operater 
> decides 
> how it will be done. Manual separation. Try it sometime, when you have a 
> years worth of free time ;0)
> 

Oh no! Is the learning curve that bad?!!!
Thanks for the reply.
George J Kunze


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Piezo Driver /Cone /MIS FS Inkset Comparison

2002-02-18 by antonisphoto

Wolf,

thanks for such a well written report - and well-conducted experiment, too! 
I wish we could see even thumbnails of the images to understand why one 
stood out better in a warm print.

Bear in mind that Epson Archival Matte will yellow over a relatively short  
exposure to light and air. I know you are not looking for "archival", but just be 
aware that those Optical Brighteners go quickly (probably more so under 
fluorescent lighting) and a year from now you may not like what a client is 
holding in their hands as you work. To test for OB's just hold a sheet under 
"black" light.

If it's OK with you, I'd like to put your report and some of the thread that 
followed in the files of this group for future reference.

Antonis Ricos
<list moderator>



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "wolfkphotos" 
<wolfkutnahorskyphotos@r...> wrote:
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> I've just completed a comparative test between the Cone inks and the 
> MIS FS inks using the Piezo driver that I thought might be of interest 
> to this forum.

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