Digital BW, The Print

While the Canon Baryta gets a lot of attention I think the Canson 
Infinity Rag Photographique 310 -210 gsm, is the real jewel in the crown.
Measuring many paper whites these days it is the one that shows no OBA 
but exceptionally high reflectance in an uniform spectral curve.
To my eyes in 5000K light it is equivalent to Photorag that has OBAs, 
possibly even a bit whiter. In 3200K halogen it is warmer than HPR.  If 
I compare the spectral curve to Moab Entrada Natural White as shown on 
Laszlo's page I guess it is whiter than that paper too. I do not have 
that Moab paper to measure. With spectral measurements on the front and 
the back I see no OBA and parallel curves throughout which indicates a 
very clean base and a rich application of good whitening agents.

So far I have not printed anything on it but any reasonable Dmax must 
create a wide dynamic range on that matt paper.

Anyone who uses it already?


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Hi Ernst,

I am a big fan of Canson Infinity Rag Photographique 310. I switched over to
it about 18 months ago when I got fed up of the inconsistency in HPR
batches. It has a very consistent surface in terms of coating and texture,
both between batches and within a sheet.

In terms of dmax, using MIS Eboni on my R1900 I get L= 15 - 15.3 using QTR
curve style and 16 using Cone style Curves.
The difference is the result of there being just two black densities in the
QTR curve mix @ dmax and five black densities in the Cone mix.The lighter
inks holding back the dmax. However the gotcha is that QTR curve based
prints are very susceptible to posterization because the dithering has
limited overlapping inks to work with. So its a trade off at the end of the
day.

Mike



On 23 February 2010 10:11, Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:

>
>
> While the Canon Baryta gets a lot of attention I think the Canson
> Infinity Rag Photographique 310 -210 gsm, is the real jewel in the crown.
> Measuring many paper whites these days it is the one that shows no OBA
> but exceptionally high reflectance in an uniform spectral curve.
> To my eyes in 5000K light it is equivalent to Photorag that has OBAs,
> possibly even a bit whiter. In 3200K halogen it is warmer than HPR. If
> I compare the spectral curve to Moab Entrada Natural White as shown on
> Laszlo's page I guess it is whiter than that paper too. I do not have
> that Moab paper to measure. With spectral measurements on the front and
> the back I see no OBA and parallel curves throughout which indicates a
> very clean base and a rich application of good whitening agents.
>
> So far I have not printed anything on it but any reasonable Dmax must
> create a wide dynamic range on that matt paper.
>
> Anyone who uses it already?
>
> --
> Met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst
>
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>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michael King schreef:

> 
> In terms of dmax, using MIS Eboni on my R1900 I get L= 15 - 15.3 using QTR
> curve style and 16 using Cone style Curves.

> Mike

1.72 D maximum then which is in line with PhotoRag. Larger droplets of
my Z models setting it higher I guess.

The spectral curve (actually almost a straight line) runs from 86.40 at
380Nm to 99.50 at 750Nm, no drops, no hickups. That is for the 210 gsm 
measured with the back on a natural white matt
board.
Total L 96.56 for the 310gsm put on the same natural white matt board.
HM Photorag 310 with the OBA is at L 95.48 measured the same way.

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>... 
> The spectral curve (actually almost a straight line) runs 
> from 86.40 at 380Nm to 99.50 at 750Nm, no drops, no hickups. ...

Do you have a Lab A and B for the paper white?  I assume the straight line response you're describing would indicate a very neutral reading for both.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Ernst, I have replaced HPR with it on my 7900. It is MUCH less flake prone, and everything I loved about HPR I now love in the Canson. It's not that much cheaper, but worth it for the durability factor alone. 

I haven't used it with b&w/3mk on my old 1800 yet but would like to. I'm currently printing with ABW on my 7900 and liking it but would still prefer a carbon approach. I think b&w images on this paper could be stunning with that set-up. 

No tech data for you, but I love the paper!

Sarah



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:

>
> While the Canon Baryta gets a lot of attention I think the Canson 
> Infinity Rag Photographique 310 -210 gsm, is the real jewel in the crown.
> Measuring many paper whites these days it is the one that shows no OBA 
> but exceptionally high reflectance in an uniform spectral curve.
> To my eyes in 5000K light it is equivalent to Photorag that has OBAs, 
> possibly even a bit whiter. In 3200K halogen it is warmer than HPR.  If 
> I compare the spectral curve to Moab Entrada Natural White as shown on 
> Laszlo's page I guess it is whiter than that paper too. I do not have 
> that Moab paper to measure. With spectral measurements on the front and 
> the back I see no OBA and parallel curves throughout which indicates a 
> very clean base and a rich application of good whitening agents.
> 
> So far I have not printed anything on it but any reasonable Dmax must 
> create a wide dynamic range on that matt paper.
> 
> Anyone who uses it already?
> 
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst
> 
> 
> Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions
> 
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>

Been using it and recommending it here for some months now. Both the 310 and the 220 duo. Gamuts and Dmaxs compare favorably with the HPR standard we've all come to accept, with both Cone inks and Epson color inks..
Nice stuff, a bit pricey. Alise remains a good affordable option.
Sarah is right, surface seems more robust.
Tyler
http://www.custom-digital.com/

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:

>
> While the Canon Baryta gets a lot of attention I think the Canson 
> Infinity Rag Photographique 310 -210 gsm, is the real jewel in the crown.
> Measuring many paper whites these days it is the one that shows no OBA 
> but exceptionally high reflectance in an uniform spectral curve.
> To my eyes in 5000K light it is equivalent to Photorag that has OBAs, 
> possibly even a bit whiter. In 3200K halogen it is warmer than HPR.  If 
> I compare the spectral curve to Moab Entrada Natural White as shown on 
> Laszlo's page I guess it is whiter than that paper too. I do not have 
> that Moab paper to measure. With spectral measurements on the front and 
> the back I see no OBA and parallel curves throughout which indicates a 
> very clean base and a rich application of good whitening agents.
> 
> So far I have not printed anything on it but any reasonable Dmax must 
> create a wide dynamic range on that matt paper.
> 
> Anyone who uses it already?
> 
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst
> 
> 
> Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions
> 
> |      Dinkla Grafische Techniek      |
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>

pr_roark schreef:
>> ... 
>> The spectral curve (actually almost a straight line) runs 
>> from 86.40 at 380Nm to 99.50 at 750Nm, no drops, no hickups. ...
> 
> Do you have a Lab A and B for the paper white?  I assume the straight line response you're describing would indicate a very neutral reading for both.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> 
> 
> 

Paul,

Straight but inclining, high end to the right, so warmer.

Measured the 310gsm on a black tablet with the Spectrocam:

Lab 96.03  0.16 1.63

the 210gsm

Lab 95.87 0.02  0.80


There's a very rough page on my site with the paper white measurements 
of more papers. This should become a more sophisticated page when my 
youngest son has more time and it is hard to tell when that happens. 
More like Laszlo Pusztai's page. But I did measure more of the papers: 
A1 is the measurement on the print side and the paper put on a natural 
white matt board, A2 on the print side too but the paper on a black 
tablet, A3 the backside of the paper and the paper on a black tablet. 
All three are averaged numbers of 16 measurements in scan mode style. 
The differences tell something about where the OBAs are located, how 
opaque the paper is, etc.

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectrumplot/index.php


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Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:
>
> ...
> 
> Straight but inclining, high end to the right, so warmer.
> 
> Measured the 310gsm on a black tablet with the Spectrocam:
> 
> Lab 96.03  0.16 1.63
> 
> the 210gsm
> 
> Lab 95.87 0.02  0.80


I'm not sure how accurate my spectro is in the very neutral area, but those Lab A values look lower than most, but it might be my spectro that is reading high.  In general, among the papers I use, I tend to like a somewhat relatively elevated Lab A.  

> ...
> http://www.pigment-print.com/spectrumplot/index.php

There are some interesting dips on some of those graphs.  It makes me wonder what is in the paper or coating that is absorbing light in a narrow band.  Interesting stuff, but a bit hard to relate to on first exposure.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

pr_roark schreef:
> Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:
>> ...
>>
>> Straight but inclining, high end to the right, so warmer.
>>
>> Measured the 310gsm on a black tablet with the Spectrocam:
>>
>> Lab 96.03  0.16 1.63
>>
>> the 210gsm
>>
>> Lab 95.87 0.02  0.80
> 
> 
> I'm not sure how accurate my spectro is in the very neutral area, but those Lab A values look lower than most, but it might be my spectro that is reading high.  In general, among the papers I use, I tend to like a somewhat relatively elevated Lab A.  
> 
>> ...
>> http://www.pigment-print.com/spectrumplot/index.php
> 
> There are some interesting dips on some of those graphs.  It makes me wonder what is in the paper or coating that is absorbing light in a narrow band.  Interesting stuff, but a bit hard to relate to on first exposure.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> 

Paul,

Ignore what happens in the 500-550 range. The Xenon flash on the 
Spectrocam has a small peak there that is compensated in the software on 
the white calibration step. I check the white calibration then by 
measuring the calibration patch again and then it is dead on.
Measuring paper white goes well but that range either shows dips or 
peaks and it is more exaggerated in the curve fitting on the website 
than on the original Spectrocam software. I think related to the short 
intervals = 5Nm of the Spectrocam's measurements.

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Paul,

I see similar low paper white "a" values with two spectros.
Both read just above 0. But I see "b" values about 0.8 (310g), lower than
Ernst.

I wish there was some way to recalibrate these spectros without sending them
off to Xrite.
You should be able to just buy /install a new white tile and some software
should do the re-calibration for you.
Or are these white tiles really expensive and its cheaper to recalibrate the
exisiting one ?

Mike

On 24 February 2010 01:39, pr_roark <roark.paul@...> wrote:

>
>
> Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:
> >
> > ...
>
> >
> > Straight but inclining, high end to the right, so warmer.
> >
> > Measured the 310gsm on a black tablet with the Spectrocam:
> >
> > Lab 96.03 0.16 1.63
> >
> > the 210gsm
> >
> > Lab 95.87 0.02 0.80
>
> I'm not sure how accurate my spectro is in the very neutral area, but those
> Lab A values look lower than most, but it might be my spectro that is
> reading high. In general, among the papers I use, I tend to like a somewhat
> relatively elevated Lab A.
>
> > ...
>
> > http://www.pigment-print.com/spectrumplot/index.php
>
> There are some interesting dips on some of those graphs. It makes me wonder
> what is in the paper or coating that is absorbing light in a narrow band.
> Interesting stuff, but a bit hard to relate to on first exposure.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michael King schreef:
> Paul,
> 
> I see similar low paper white "a" values with two spectros.
> Both read just above 0. But I see "b" values about 0.8 (310g), lower than
> Ernst.
> 
> I wish there was some way to recalibrate these spectros without sending them
> off to Xrite.
> You should be able to just buy /install a new white tile and some software
> should do the re-calibration for you.
> Or are these white tiles really expensive and its cheaper to recalibrate the
> exisiting one ?
> 
> Mike

To get some references I checked the paper white measurements in the 
Aardenburg test results:

William Turner 310 gsm with UV included:
Lab 95.9 0.2 2.3

I guess that it is measured on a black tablet, my results are:

310 gsm
Lab 95.27 0.42 2.55 on a black tablet
Lab 95.69 0.68 3.06 on a stack of William Turner

180 gsm
Lab 94.27 0.28 1.34 on a black tablet
Lab 95.46 0.73 2.36 on a stack of William Turner

Paper has no OBA so comparable to Canson Rag Photographique, differences 
between batches and age of the paper probably more important than the 
differences between the spectrometers.

"a" not really high with the black tablet measurements and UV included, 
the same method I used for the CRP Lab numbers.


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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:

> To get some references I checked the paper white measurements in the 
> Aardenburg test results:
> 
> William Turner 310 gsm with UV included:
> Lab 95.9 0.2 2.3
> 
> I guess that it is measured on a black tablet, my results are:
> 
> 310 gsm
> Lab 95.27 0.42 2.55 on a black tablet
> Lab 95.69 0.68 3.06 on a stack of William Turner

HI Everyone,

Actually I make all media white and max printed black readings for the Aardenburg test reports on the table-white surface of my Gretag/Macbeth Spectrocan. As you can see in Ernst's measurements a black backing will often give slightly lower L value than a white backing due to less secondary light scatter coming back through the media, but I believe most prints are framed on white or near white matting and mount board, so a standardized white backing is more appropriate to what one is going to observe more often in practice.  Other color scientists recommend standardization on a black backing because these readings would tend to include opacity of the substrate which is also a legitimate media property to be concerned about. Ideal answer would be to measure both, but I had to draw the line somewhere. I'm generating tons of data as it is already!

BTW, I do have one sample of Canson Infinity Rag Photographique in test. Submitted by an AaI&A member from Australia, I measured paper white point as:

UV included - 97.6, 0.4, 0.9
UV excluded - 97.8,0.4, 1.0

With a delta b* value of only 0.1 (effectively within instrumental error) this paper clearly has no OBA present whatsoever. HPR has some OBA in paper core.  The commendably high L* value and the near neutral a* and b* values are impressive. Max printed black was a little higher than I'm used to seeing with Epson MK inks, coming it at 19.4 for a color print sample made on an Epson 7900 with HDR ink set, whereas HPR typically measures about 17. However, the L* range from media white to printed black is essentially the same. Most viewers will respond favorably to the brighter white point, again a very impressive achievement considering it's getting no "boost" from OBAs.

cheers,

Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

So Mark, do you see the Canson Infinity Photograhique out performing Photorag as a  general principle across the board in the greater than 100 mega lux tests with most inks?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john" <deanwork2003@...> wrote:
>
> 
> So Mark, do you see the Canson Infinity Photograhique out performing Photorag as a  general principle across the board in the greater than 100 mega lux tests with most inks?
>

Not enough light fade data yet to make any generalizations about these two papers yet. Closest comparison I have at the moment is the Rag Photographique printed with Epson HDR inks at 50 megalux hours (sample # AaI_20090408_SN001) compared to HPR with Epson K3 inks at that same exposure dose (sample # AaI_20080113_SN003). The latter sample has gone over 100 megalux hours and has conservation display ratings completed now.  Need to continue the Rag Photographigue sample further in test to get to the conservation display ratings (still passing lower and upper limit boundaries) and see how things fare at the 100+ megalux hour mark. So far the two papers look to be tracking similarly with Epson inks and no major differences have appeared yet between K3 and HDR inks on various papers though some subtle differences are beginning with certain colors.  That said, HPR turns in exceptionally good performance with Canon Lucia pigment inks, much better than the Epson ink, and outperforming other papers like Museo with the Lucia inks. The moral of the story is that one really needs to test each printer/ink/paper combination as a total entity. Extrapolating ink or paper performance to other systems is risky. 

John, you kindly submitted an HPR sample with the Z3100 Vivera inks, but it just got started in test. Yet once the test goes further we will then have some good HPR data on Epson, Canon, and HP pigment sets for this widely used paper. No reason the Canson papers won't get there, too, as more AaI&A members begin to use them.

Hence, sooner or later I expect to have both papers well represented in the AaI&A light fade database printed with the major OEM ink sets in both color and B&W output. Getting a lot of B&W samples coming in on these papers as well including some popular monochrome ink sets which should be of special interest to this forum.  AaI&A members are helping me get there. It takes time. Patience is a virtue!

regards,
Mark

http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

Mark schreef:

> The commendably high L* value and the near
> neutral a* and b* values are impressive. Max printed black was a
> little higher than I'm used to seeing with Epson MK inks, coming it
> at 19.4 for a color print sample made on an Epson 7900 with HDR ink
> set, whereas HPR typically measures about 17. However, the L* range
> from media white to printed black is essentially the same. Most
> viewers will respond favorably to the brighter white point, again a
> very impressive achievement considering it's getting no "boost" from
> OBAs.
> 
> cheers,
> 
> Mark http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com


The dynamic range is important. I expect that the MK inks still can 
block the reflectance of paper whites whatever value the last have. 
Blocking power becomes a problem with transmitted light and hardly ever 
with reflecting surfaces. With pigment inks it is usually the reflection 
of the black ink itself that sets the Dmax and not its blocking 
capacity. Another not always visible limit is the micro banding of a 
black patch, very fine white-grey lines influence the density reading 
considerably. The same ink amount spread uniform gives a much higher 
density.

Mike's Eboni R1900 gives an L 15 -15.3 Dmax which is nice.



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Somewhere along the way in my own look at effects from OBA's I remember seeing that there could be absorbtion and readmission within the visible spectra as well as the uv to visible results we normally associate with these.I wish I could point to specific references but memory fails on that score:)
That could easily explain some of the bumps and dips perhaps.

Regards,
Duane
  

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "pr_roark" <roark.paul@...> wrote:

> 
> There are some interesting dips on some of those graphs.  It makes me wonder what is in the paper or coating that is absorbing light in a narrow band.  Interesting stuff, but a bit hard to relate to on first exposure.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

dlruckus schreef:
> Somewhere along the way in my own look at effects from OBA's I remember seeing that there could be absorbtion and readmission within the visible spectra as well as the uv to visible results we normally associate with these.I wish I could point to specific references but memory fails on that score:)
> That could easily explain some of the bumps and dips perhaps.
> 
> Regards,
> Duane

It isn't limited to papers with OBAs.

I first thought of a spectral response of an inkjet coating component at 
that range, whether caused by a specific component or a fluorsecence 
effect. But sometimes another measurement of the same paper gives a 
smoother curve. I really think it is the short interval of 5Nm, a small 
peak  in the Xenon light near 530Nm and the curve fitting not coping 
with that to produce a smooth curve. It is one of the things I want to 
correct, redo some measurements and on the other hand dampen the hickups 
in the curves. I find it more important to get  more data that can be 
compared than getting that range in order.


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A few years back, before I retrieved a spectro from storage, I tinkered around with an ED100 EFI densitometer given to me by a friend. I found it's readings seemed to vary with the time of day for some reason. In tying to determine why, I learned it wasn't temperature related but was related to the general daylight level in the room even though the room had heavy window shades. So,I covered the samples and probe with a piece of old changing bag to stabilize the readings. I also found that it required a short wait time in the dark before measurements in order to stabilize readings, as well as waiting between multiple near same spot readings because taking them too soon caused steady changes. I also tried putting the instrument and sample in a box with part of the sample sheet outside of the box. With a small pen light on the sample outside of the box(about 3 inches from the probe measure point) I could influence the measurement as well and it took time for the measurement to stabilize when the light was removed.

What's all this mean?--Well, I took it to mean(aside from the ED100 being a pain) that there is a lot going on in the interactions between paper/coatings/OBA or not/environment/instruments and light. It's small wonder that it's difficult to exactly compare readings between one instrument or place and another or even from different times in the same place with the same instrument. I think some differences may well be the best we can do and not particularly due to the instruments alone.

Regards,
Duane




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <edinkla@...> wrote:

>
> It isn't limited to papers with OBAs.
> 
> I first thought of a spectral response of an inkjet coating component at 
> that range, whether caused by a specific component or a fluorsecence 
> effect. But sometimes another measurement of the same paper gives a 
> smoother curve. I really think it is the short interval of 5Nm, a small 
> peak  in the Xenon light near 530Nm and the curve fitting not coping 
> with that to produce a smooth curve. It is one of the things I want to 
> correct, redo some measurements and on the other hand dampen the hickups 
> in the curves. I find it more important to get  more data that can be 
> compared than getting that range in order.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groeten,   Ernst
> 
> 
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Michael King schreef:

> I wish there was some way to recalibrate these spectros without sending them
> off to Xrite.

There might be a worldwide available white reference object at 2$ each, 
renewable and dead neutral.

More about that when I have more measurements available from more 
instruments.

Not exactly a calibration tile but it would show deviations between 
individual meters at paper white readings.


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