Doepfer

Does anyone else have the new 177-2 compact foot controller module?

I've been using the original foot controller module, with a continuous pedal and a double foot switch, for 11 years, and got this one to save space.  But I'm having two big problems with it:

1.  When the footswitch output is patched into an S&H module, it triggers both when pressing and releasing the pedal, or both at the onset and release of the gate signal.  The original pedal would trigger only with the onset of the gate.  Is this a real difference with the original 177, or is mine defective?

2.  Again when patched into an S&H module, if I press one footswitch, it sends signal out BOTH outputs.  But very confusingly,  when I tested this by patching the footswitch outputs into the Trigger Modifier module, this doesn't happen; it appears there to be working correctly.  But then when I move the outputs back into the trigger input of the S&H module, I get this wrong behavior again.  I even tried moving the modules into a different case to see if there were some power supply issue; even alone in an otherwise empty case, I get the same results.

Any ideas?

thanks,
Ernst

Even more strangely:

If I have output #1 from the 177-2 double footswitch patched to the 165 trigger modifier input, and nothing patched from output #2, only pressing footswitch #1 shows up on the LEDs on the 165.  Footswitch #2 appears to do nothing.  So far so good.  However, if I patch from the mini-mult of the 165 to the trigger input of the S&H 148, then even though only #1 registers on the 165, BOTH footswitches #1 and #2 pass gate on to the S&H.  


Hmmm?

> Does anyone else have the new 177-2 compact foot controller module?
>
> I've been using the original foot controller module, with a
> continuous pedal and a double foot switch, for 11 years, and got
> this one to save space.  But I'm having two big problems with it:
>
> 1.  When the footswitch output is patched into an S&H module, it
> triggers both when pressing and releasing the pedal, or both at
> the onset and release of the gate signal.  The original pedal
> would trigger only with the onset of the gate.  Is this a real
> difference with the original 177, or is mine defective?
>
> 2.  Again when patched into an S&H module, if I press one
> footswitch, it sends signal out BOTH outputs.  But very
> confusingly,  when I tested this by patching the footswitch
> outputs into the Trigger Modifier module, this doesn't happen; it
> appears there to be working correctly.  But then when I move the
> outputs back into the trigger input of the S&H module, I get this
> wrong behavior again.  I even tried moving the modules into a
> different case to see if there were some power supply issue; even
> alone in an otherwise empty case, I get the same results.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> thanks,
> Ernst

I suppose that it has to do with the bouncing of the contacts of your foot
pedal (i.e. that releasing the pedal is not a clean on/off transition but a
sequence of on/off/on/off transitions until the final state is reached). If
the A-177-2 is used to switch a signal (e.g. by means of the A-150) this
causes no problems but if the foot switch is used as a trigger (e.g. S&H or
clock circuits) this may lead to a problem. Especially older contacts may
generate a lot of bouncing. Maybe adding a capacitor to the inputs will
solve the problem. They would work like low pass filters that filter the
bouncing pulses. One has to try it out as it depends upon the bouncing
behaviour of the contacts. I'd start with ~ 100nF connected between GND and
the foot switch inputs.

Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer

Thanks, Dieter, for your reply.

So the 177-2 does behave differently from the 177? Because I'm using the same footswitch as I did with the 177, and I never had this issue with the 177.  Are the capacitors different?  I'm not really equipped to do a modification myself....

And isn't the behavior I mentioned in my second message quite strange?  I'll quote it again here:

"If I have output #1 from the 177-2 double footswitch patched to the 165 trigger modifier input, and nothing patched from output #2, only pressing footswitch #1 shows up on the LEDs on the 165. Footswitch #2 appears to do nothing. So far so good. However, if I patch from the mini-mult of the 165 to the trigger input of the S&H 148, then even though only #1 registers on the 165, BOTH footswitches #1 and #2 pass gate on to the S&H."

Thanks again,
Ernst

> Thanks, Dieter, for your reply.
>
> So the 177-2 does behave differently from the 177? Because I'm
> using the same footswitch as I did with the 177, and I never had
> this issue with the 177.  Are the capacitors different?  I'm not
> really equipped to do a modification myself....

The circuits of the A-177 and A-177-2 are totally different. The A-177 used
"active" circuits (operational amplifiers), the A-177-2 is a simple passive
module with pull-up resistors for the foot switches only (no capacitors).

> And isn't the behavior I mentioned in my second message quite
> strange?  I'll quote it again here:
>
> "If I have output #1 from the 177-2 double footswitch patched to
> the 165 trigger modifier input, and nothing patched from output
> #2, only pressing footswitch #1 shows up on the LEDs on the 165.
> Footswitch #2 appears to do nothing. So far so good. However, if
> I patch from the mini-mult of the 165 to the trigger input of the
> S&H 148, then even though only #1 registers on the 165, BOTH
> footswitches #1 and #2 pass gate on to the S&H."

That's indeed strange. I'll try to copy the behaviour in our demo system. It
probably has to do with glitches and bouncing and the different input
behaviour of A-165 and A-148 in case of glitches at the input.

Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer

Hello Dieter,

Thanks for your earlier responses.  I dropped this thread and have been using my old 177, but I'd like to use the 177-2 if possible, so here are some more comments/questions:

--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, <yahoo@...> wrote:
>
 > I suppose that it has to do with the bouncing of the contacts of your foot
> pedal (i.e. that releasing the pedal is not a clean on/off transition but a
> sequence of on/off/on/off transitions until the final state is reached). If
> the A-177-2 is used to switch a signal (e.g. by means of the A-150) this
> causes no problems but if the foot switch is used as a trigger (e.g. S&H or
> clock circuits) this may lead to a problem. Especially older contacts may
> generate a lot of bouncing. 

You're right about the 150, but when I use it with the 151 it goes crazy, and is basically unusable.  Each trigger causes a flashing of lights and moves an unpredictable number of stages in the sequence. 

> Maybe adding a capacitor to the inputs will
> solve the problem. They would work like low pass filters that filter the
> bouncing pulses. One has to try it out as it depends upon the bouncing
> behaviour of the contacts. I'd start with ~ 100nF connected between GND and
> the foot switch inputs.

Sorry, but I'm ignorant about these things -- how would I do this exactly?


> > And isn't the behavior I mentioned in my second message quite
> > strange?  I'll quote it again here:
> >
> > "If I have output #1 from the 177-2 double footswitch patched to
> > the 165 trigger modifier input, and nothing patched from output
> > #2, only pressing footswitch #1 shows up on the LEDs on the 165.
> > Footswitch #2 appears to do nothing. So far so good. However, if
> > I patch from the mini-mult of the 165 to the trigger input of the
> > S&H 148, then even though only #1 registers on the 165, BOTH
> > footswitches #1 and #2 pass gate on to the S&H."
> 
> That's indeed strange. I'll try to copy the behaviour in our demo system. It
> probably has to do with glitches and bouncing and the different input
> behaviour of A-165 and A-148 in case of glitches at the input.

Did you happen to get a chance to look at this?  

Thanks again!
Ernst

Hi -- 

I'm hoping to pull my 177-2 back off the shelf again, and wondering if Dieter or anyone else using this module might be able to help out with the questions below.  Thanks in advance!

Ernst


--- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, "E_Karel" <ekarel@...> wrote:

>
> Hello Dieter,
> 
> Thanks for your earlier responses.  I dropped this thread and have been using my old 177, but I'd like to use the 177-2 if possible, so here are some more comments/questions:
> 
> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, <yahoo@> wrote:
> >
>  > I suppose that it has to do with the bouncing of the contacts of your foot
> > pedal (i.e. that releasing the pedal is not a clean on/off transition but a
> > sequence of on/off/on/off transitions until the final state is reached). If
> > the A-177-2 is used to switch a signal (e.g. by means of the A-150) this
> > causes no problems but if the foot switch is used as a trigger (e.g. S&H or
> > clock circuits) this may lead to a problem. Especially older contacts may
> > generate a lot of bouncing. 
> 
> You're right about the 150, but when I use it with the 151 it goes crazy, and is basically unusable.  Each trigger causes a flashing of lights and moves an unpredictable number of stages in the sequence. 
> 
> > Maybe adding a capacitor to the inputs will
> > solve the problem. They would work like low pass filters that filter the
> > bouncing pulses. One has to try it out as it depends upon the bouncing
> > behaviour of the contacts. I'd start with ~ 100nF connected between GND and
> > the foot switch inputs.
> 
> Sorry, but I'm ignorant about these things -- how would I do this exactly?
> 
> 
> > > And isn't the behavior I mentioned in my second message quite
> > > strange?  I'll quote it again here:
> > >
> > > "If I have output #1 from the 177-2 double footswitch patched to
> > > the 165 trigger modifier input, and nothing patched from output
> > > #2, only pressing footswitch #1 shows up on the LEDs on the 165.
> > > Footswitch #2 appears to do nothing. So far so good. However, if
> > > I patch from the mini-mult of the 165 to the trigger input of the
> > > S&H 148, then even though only #1 registers on the 165, BOTH
> > > footswitches #1 and #2 pass gate on to the S&H."
> > 
> > That's indeed strange. I'll try to copy the behaviour in our demo system. It
> > probably has to do with glitches and bouncing and the different input
> > behaviour of A-165 and A-148 in case of glitches at the input.
> 
> Did you happen to get a chance to look at this?  
> 
> Thanks again!
> Ernst
>

As already mentioned I suppose the problems are caused by the foot switch
with does not simply open or close during operation but causes a
open-close-open-close-... sequence. Adding capacitor to the outputs (i.e.
between GND and the output) may solve the problem. One has to try out the
values as it depends upon the intervals betweend the opening/closing of the
foot switches. I'd start with 1uF electrolytic capacitor (plus = output,
minus = GND). Another solution would be to add an A-162 trigger delay. If
the pulse width of the A-162 is longer than the open-close sequence the
unwanted pulses will disappear.

Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer

> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com]Im Auftrag von lre
> Gesendet: Sonntag, 3. April 2011 19:01
> An: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: [Doepfer_a100] Re: 177-2 foot controller issues
>
>
>
>
> Hi --
>
> I'm hoping to pull my 177-2 back off the shelf again, and
> wondering if Dieter or anyone else using this module might be
> able to help out with the questions below.  Thanks in advance!
>
> Ernst
>
>
> --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, "E_Karel" <ekarel@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Dieter,
> >
> > Thanks for your earlier responses.  I dropped this thread and
> have been using my old 177, but I'd like to use the 177-2 if
> possible, so here are some more comments/questions:
> >
> > --- In Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com, <yahoo@> wrote:
> > >
> >  > I suppose that it has to do with the bouncing of the
> contacts of your foot
> > > pedal (i.e. that releasing the pedal is not a clean on/off
> transition but a
> > > sequence of on/off/on/off transitions until the final state
> is reached). If
> > > the A-177-2 is used to switch a signal (e.g. by means of the
> A-150) this
> > > causes no problems but if the foot switch is used as a
> trigger (e.g. S&H or
> > > clock circuits) this may lead to a problem. Especially older
> contacts may
> > > generate a lot of bouncing.
> >
> > You're right about the 150, but when I use it with the 151 it
> goes crazy, and is basically unusable.  Each trigger causes a
> flashing of lights and moves an unpredictable number of stages in
> the sequence.
> >
> > > Maybe adding a capacitor to the inputs will
> > > solve the problem. They would work like low pass filters that
> filter the
> > > bouncing pulses. One has to try it out as it depends upon the bouncing
> > > behaviour of the contacts. I'd start with ~ 100nF connected
> between GND and
> > > the foot switch inputs.
> >
> > Sorry, but I'm ignorant about these things -- how would I do
> this exactly?
> >
> >
> > > > And isn't the behavior I mentioned in my second message quite
> > > > strange?  I'll quote it again here:
> > > >
> > > > "If I have output #1 from the 177-2 double footswitch patched to
> > > > the 165 trigger modifier input, and nothing patched from output
> > > > #2, only pressing footswitch #1 shows up on the LEDs on the 165.
> > > > Footswitch #2 appears to do nothing. So far so good. However, if
> > > > I patch from the mini-mult of the 165 to the trigger input of the
> > > > S&H 148, then even though only #1 registers on the 165, BOTH
> > > > footswitches #1 and #2 pass gate on to the S&H."
> > >
> > > That's indeed strange. I'll try to copy the behaviour in our
> demo system. It
> > > probably has to do with glitches and bouncing and the different input
> > > behaviour of A-165 and A-148 in case of glitches at the input.
> >
> > Did you happen to get a chance to look at this?
> >
> > Thanks again!
> > Ernst
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
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>
>
>

I seem to have damaged my A-113 once again. I believe it is the PIC that 
is damaged. This happened once before and I ordered a new PIC through my 
dealer, Analogue Haven. Is it still possible to get these replacement PICs?

Thank you,

Tony Rolando

> I seem to have damaged my A-113 once again. I believe it is the PIC that
> is damaged. This happened once before and I ordered a new PIC through my
> dealer, Analogue Haven. Is it still possible to get these
> replacement PICs?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Tony Rolando

Of course. But it may take a few weeks as I'm not sure if Analogue Haven
have this PIC in stock. I suppose they don't.

Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer