Doepfer

Hello,

is there anyone who can share some deeper experience with the PLL module 
A-196. I recently bought one, to do some experiments, which should lead 
to some diy-modules.

One idea is, that I want to multiply the frequency of the DIN-Sync clock 
by 40 to get the CSQ-Clock for my CSQ600.

The other approach is to get a highspeed VCO (I want to create a graphic 
VCO with the A155).

I use the A-160/161 as divider.


In both cases I am a little lost: I have no idea, which of the three 
comparators I should use. I never get a reliable tracking. If i search 
the web for example, then all I find are examples where the people think 
that this module is a great source of chaotic sounds. My plan is the 
opposite. I want to use it for reliable frequency multiplication.


Any help is appreciated.

best regards
Florian

I think it's great for chaotic sounds [?]
Not sure if it's possible to get it working as a steady tracker.

Ernst

On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 11:07 PM, florian anwander fanwander@mnet-online.de
[Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

>
>
> Hello,
>
> is there anyone who can share some deeper experience with the PLL module
> A-196. I recently bought one, to do some experiments, which should lead
> to some diy-modules.
>
> One idea is, that I want to multiply the frequency of the DIN-Sync clock
> by 40 to get the CSQ-Clock for my CSQ600.
>
> The other approach is to get a highspeed VCO (I want to create a graphic
> VCO with the A155).
>
> I use the A-160/161 as divider.
>
> In both cases I am a little lost: I have no idea, which of the three
> comparators I should use. I never get a reliable tracking. If i search
> the web for example, then all I find are examples where the people think
> that this module is a great source of chaotic sounds. My plan is the
> opposite. I want to use it for reliable frequency multiplication.
>
> Any help is appreciated.
>
> best regards
> Florian
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The manual describes how to get it working for frequency multiplying, to function with the a-155 I think?

Neil

Sent from my iPhone

> On 22 Apr 2015, at 22:52, achtung_999 heinrich.himmelwasser@gmail.com [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> I think it's great for chaotic sounds [?]
> Not sure if it's possible to get it working as a steady tracker.
> 
> Ernst
> 
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 11:07 PM, florian anwander fanwander@mnet-online.de
> [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > is there anyone who can share some deeper experience with the PLL module
> > A-196. I recently bought one, to do some experiments, which should lead
> > to some diy-modules.
> >
> > One idea is, that I want to multiply the frequency of the DIN-Sync clock
> > by 40 to get the CSQ-Clock for my CSQ600.
> >
> > The other approach is to get a highspeed VCO (I want to create a graphic
> > VCO with the A155).
> >
> > I use the A-160/161 as divider.
> >
> > In both cases I am a little lost: I have no idea, which of the three
> > comparators I should use. I never get a reliable tracking. If i search
> > the web for example, then all I find are examples where the people think
> > that this module is a great source of chaotic sounds. My plan is the
> > opposite. I want to use it for reliable frequency multiplication.
> >
> > Any help is appreciated.
> >
> > best regards
> > Florian
> > 
> >
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
>

Hello

> I think it's great for chaotic sounds [?]
> Not sure if it's possible to get it working as a steady tracker.
Beside the input and output buffers (and the additional filter, which 
can be seen as separate module) the A-196 is the rough 4046 PLL-chip. 
The 4046 is the most wide spread PLL chip in the industry, so I strongly 
assume, there are possibilities to use it as a steady tracker. I doubt 
that the automatisation industry has as larger interest in chaotic 
behaviour.

I think it is not ok, to excuse my own incompetence by an alleged fault 
of the module.

Fault

Hello Neil

> The manual describes how to get it working for frequency multiplying, to
> function with the a-155 I think?
Yes, but this is only the basic description of the principle. This is 
well spread knowledge if you read a bit about the module.

I need to know how each of the three phase comparators works, how one 
should set the module up (filter cutoff, VCO offset) for each of the 
three possible comparators, and which phase comparator is the most 
useful for which application.

Florian

I don't know if there is an 'ideal' setup. Certainly CP1 seems more stable than the other two, as it locks at harmonics. I think you might find that it is going to be a process of just trying things until it works... One thing I did notice is that you are looking to do a x40 multiplication which using the A160/161 is not going to work (sorry you clearly know this already), so would the VC frequency divider be a better option?

Neil

Sent from my iPhone

> On 23 Apr 2015, at 07:15, florian anwander fanwander@mnet-online.de [Doepfer_a100] <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello Neil
> 
> > The manual describes how to get it working for frequency multiplying, to
> > function with the a-155 I think?
> Yes, but this is only the basic description of the principle. This is 
> well spread knowledge if you read a bit about the module.
> 
> I need to know how each of the three phase comparators works, how one 
> should set the module up (filter cutoff, VCO offset) for each of the 
> three possible comparators, and which phase comparator is the most 
> useful for which application.
> 
> Florian
>

> Hello,
>
> is there anyone who can share some deeper experience with the PLL module
> A-196. I recently bought one, to do some experiments, which should lead
> to some diy-modules.
>
> One idea is, that I want to multiply the frequency of the DIN-Sync clock
> by 40 to get the CSQ-Clock for my CSQ600.
>
> The other approach is to get a highspeed VCO (I want to create a graphic
> VCO with the A155).
>
> I use the A-160/161 as divider.
>
>
> In both cases I am a little lost: I have no idea, which of the three
> comparators I should use. I never get a reliable tracking. If i search
> the web for example, then all I find are examples where the people think
> that this module is a great source of chaotic sounds. My plan is the
> opposite. I want to use it for reliable frequency multiplication.
>
>
> Any help is appreciated.
>
> best regards
> Florian

Hello Florian,

the A-196 is not the right tool for clock multiplication because the A-196 VCO works only in audio range. But the new A-160-5 clock
multiplier will be the right choice. With the control knob you can adjust the multiplication factor (static application of the
module).

For a reliable and clean frequency multiplication in audio range divider and PLL should be on the same board (like the high speed
VCO of our old sound sampler) as the PLL circuit used in the A-196 (CD4046) is very touchy. There are plans for such a module
(A-196-2 with on-board divider) but I have no idea when it will be realized.

Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer

Hello Neil

Thanks for the hint.  I did some further experiments the last hour, and 
can confirm, that the CP1 is more stable on a only slightly varying 
master frequency, but it would not cover a wider frequency range (more 
than an octave) of the input signal.

For varying frequencies I get the best results with CP3. In the range of 
the input signal between 80 and 400Hz I get up to two and a half octaves 
- but for the Din-Sync clock multiplication I will have input signals 
between 10 Hz and 100Hz. I tried with various filters (esp. the 
slewlimiter), but I do not get a satisfying range with this low input 
frequency.
I can make it track fine, if I send an additional control voltage to the 
PLL's VCO and to the VC-slewlimiter, that corresponds to the frequency 
of the input signal. But this will not be available in the case of the 
DIN-Sync multiplication.

I think for my DIY project I will work with a two stage approach.
Part 1 will be counter based F/V converter, which provides a rough 
control voltage.
Part 2 will be the PLL that does the fine tuning.

Nevertheless if anyone can provide reliable settings for low frequency 
syncing with an wide range, any help is appreciated.



 > you are looking to do a x40 multiplication which using the A160/161 
is not going to work
 > (sorry you clearly know this already),
Yes ;-)
It won't work only the 160/161 or with a standard 160/161 . But there 
are several approaches to achieve it:
The first is: use logic gates, that read decimal 41 = binary 101001 from 
the output of 160 and send the output to the reset.
The second is: take the 1/8 signal from the A-160 and trigger with it 
the A-161 and use the step 6 as reset. This requires a modified A-161 
that has been extended with a separate clock input.

But in fact, I want to use the A-100 system experiment only with the 
PLL. Therefor it is not necessary to have the true division factor. The 
final device will be a custommade standalone unit, where the divider is 
made from a CD4520 and two ANDs.

Florian

Am 23.04.2015 um 08:56 schrieb Neil Kagan blinkenlicht@yahoo.com 
[Doepfer_a100]:

> I don't know if there is an 'ideal' setup. Certainly CP1 seems more 
> stable than the other two, as it locks at harmonics. I think you might 
> find that it is going to be a process of just trying things until it 
> works... One thing I did notice is that you are looking to do a x40 
> multiplication which using the A160/161 is not going to work (sorry 
> you clearly know this already), so would the VC frequency divider be a 
> better option?