Synth-DIY Yahoo! Groups Archives

Thread

Envelope Generator Problem

2017-11-07 by Scott Rogers

Hi Folks

Sorry to post this again but my whole modular synth is unusable until I fix this problem so I still need help.

The problem: All of my envelope generators do the same thing - When I play a note they peak at a certain voltage, lets say 5 volts. But when I play a second note that peak rises to 6 volts. And in some cases when I play 16th notes it rises even more.

So when I connect the output of an envelope generator to a VCA the first note I play is always MUCH quieter than every following note.

I have 3 Doepfer LC9 cases with various modules in each. This behavior is consistent in all three boxes with all of my envelope generators.

The modules are:

Doepfer A-140 (3 of these)

Doepfer A-143-2 quad

Roland 540

Also, the all 4 of the envelopes in the A-143-2 do not actually sustain. The voltage constantly falls when a note is held, even when the sustain level is set to maximum. That is a separate problem but I thought I'd mention it.

Also, for some reason the release time of the Roland 540 is only 2 seconds (even on the Slow setting) when plugged into any VCA, however when it is plugged into the Roland filter the release time is much longer. Another weird problem but I thought I'd mention it in case it was an important clue.

I have tested the output of all of the envelopes with both analog and digital volt meters to confirm the behavior.

At this point I'm not sure what to do to fix this. I guess the first question is: Is this the way these envelopes are supposed to work? I have owned analog synthesizers since 1978 and own a lot of them right now and not a single one has this behavior. Other than when using velocity sensitivity, every note played is exactly the same volume.

Is this a known issue? Are there combination of modules that can cause this to happen? Could it be the power supplies? I have moved the modules around and found the behavior is the same regardless of how many modules (or which ones) are in a case.

What kind of troubleshooting can I do? With only a trigger voltage being sent to the Envelope module I don't think there could be anything else interfering but I'm looking for any clues at all, even the most obvious ones that I may have overlooked.

I did a video to show the problem: https://youtu.be/x8_1ZnmPWLo

Thanks for any ideas anyone might have!

Scott

Re: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem

2017-11-07 by Ville Oikarinen

> Is this a known issue? Are there combination of modules that can cause this to happen? Could it be the power supplies? I have moved the modules around and found the behavior is the same regardless of how many modules (or which ones) are in a case.

Just a simple idea: are you triggering all our ADSRs using the MIDI
converter? Have you tried to trigger them with something else, like a
sequencer or a pulse LFO signal to see if there is a difference in
behaviour?

> I did a video to show the problem:  https://youtu.be/x8_1ZnmPWLo

Wow, that's some accurate problem reporting :) And what a collection
of synths...

- Ville Oikarinen

Re: Envelope Generator Problem

2017-11-07 by acgenerator@att.net

1) I'd check the behavior with another trigger source that leaves the MIDI module out of it as Ville suggested. It'll help isolate the problem source.
2) one theory is that with a single note, the voltage actually starts at 0v but with many notes voltage hasn't quite dispersed when the envelope is retriggered with successive notes. You many lose a bit of voltage on the triggers as you are connecting between modules/ patched between separately powered circuits.
3) Are you connected simultaneously to the BUS from any of the modules involved? Perhaps isolating them may help. (variation of #2 in that you may lose voltage to the BUS on the first note)
4) The sample rates of the digital chips / internal clocks involved but it could also be a minor contributor. Sound happens fast enough when you press a key so you don't notice it on single notes. With a secondary notes, you notice the envelope doesn't quite respond the same way after a NoteOff/NoteOn so you can tell via the pitch/CV change. All-in-one synths tend to have a system that has synced timings.

Re: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem

2017-11-07 by Florian Anwander

Hello,

I'd say this is normal depending on the setting of the envelope and on 
the setting of the MIDI-interfaces retrigger parameter. All analogue 
envelopes without full reset (in fact all the ones that you are using) 
ill add up a bit if the time settings are not zero. Before the times of 
velocity keyboards good keyboard players used this behaviour to simulate 
some velocity like effects.

Set the Attack, Decay and Release values of your envelopes to zero (at 
the A-140 set the time range to short) and the sustain to maximum. Then 
this behaviour should disappear.

Florian

Re: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem

2017-11-07 by Florian Anwander

Am 07.11.2017 um 09:45 schrieb Florian Anwander:

Show quoted textHide quoted text

using) ill add up

Uups, this should read "will add up"...

-- 
http://www.florian-anwander.de

RE: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem

2017-11-07 by Scott Rogers

Interesting question, I’ll check it.

 

But that leads to another question: Does the peak output of an envelope depend on the voltage of the trigger?  I would think that as long as the trigger is above a certain threshold the envelope will fire in exactly the same way every time. If that is not true then the midi module could be the problem.

 

I have not tried an LFO because it would be difficult to trigger the first time. And I haven’t tried a sequencer lately either. I have an SQ-1 I can try.

 

Thanks!

Scott

Show quoted textHide quoted text

From: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2017 12:05 AM
To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem

> Is this a known issue? Are there combination of modules that can cause this to happen? Could it be the power supplies? I have moved the modules around and found the behavior is the same regardless of how many modules (or which ones) are in a case.

Just a simple idea: are you triggering all our ADSRs using the MIDI
converter? Have you tried to trigger them with something else, like a
sequencer or a pulse LFO signal to see if there is a difference in
behaviour?

> I did a video to show the problem: https://youtu.be/x8_1ZnmPWLo

Wow, that's some accurate problem reporting :) And what a collection
of synths...

- Ville Oikarinen

Re: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem

2017-11-07 by Ville Oikarinen

> I have not tried an LFO because it would be difficult to trigger the first time. And I haven’t tried a sequencer lately either. I have an SQ-1 I can try.

Maybe if you first make the LFO as slow as possible and then slowly
increase the speed until you get a trigger, that trigger will
essentially be the first one. After that you can experiment with
different speeds.

- Ville Oikarinen

Re: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem

2017-11-07 by Florian Anwander

Hello

First of all: we speak of gates, not of triggers!
A trigger marks a timestamp of an event. A gate marks the duration and 
state between the two events(=triggers): key-press and key-release.

Am 07.11.2017 um 13:35 schrieb 'Scott Rogers' scott@scottfromcanada.com 
[Doepfer_a100]:
> Does the peak output of an envelope depend on the voltage of the trigger? 

No. But the duration of the gate and the repeat rate of the gate may 
have an influence, if the attack/decay/release-times are not zero.


Usually the envelope-circuits are buffered by a switching stage against 
the incoming gate. Only in some vintage gear there are envelope 
circuits, which depend on the level of the gate (for example the 
envelope in the Roland System100 depends on the gate level).

Florian

-- 
http://www.florian-anwander.de

RE: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem

2017-11-07 by Scott Rogers

Can you provide examples of instruments that work that way? I know of none. 

In the 39 years I have been playing synthesizers I have not seen a single
example of this before now. I have synthesizers made as early as 1973 (Korg
700, Roland SH-1000, Polymoog, Arp Axxe-1975), Late 70s (Yamaha CS-10, 15,
20m, 40m, Roland Sh-2, Korg MS-10), and some that are brand new (Roland
SE-02, Korg Arp Odyssey, Korg MS-20mini, DSI Tetra, Mopho and REV 2) and
many in between. None of them behave in this manner.

And I can't see any point to setting the time settings to zero which
effectively makes it a gate. I find it very difficult to believe that
someone would design an envelope generator that could not actually be used
as an envelope generator! This certainly does not solve the problem.

Thanks
Scott

Show quoted textHide quoted text

-----Original Message-----
From: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2017 3:46 AM
To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem

Hello,

I'd say this is normal depending on the setting of the envelope and on the
setting of the MIDI-interfaces retrigger parameter. All analogue envelopes
without full reset (in fact all the ones that you are using) ill add up a
bit if the time settings are not zero. Before the times of velocity
keyboards good keyboard players used this behaviour to simulate some
velocity like effects.

Set the Attack, Decay and Release values of your envelopes to zero (at the
A-140 set the time range to short) and the sustain to maximum. Then this
behaviour should disappear.

Florian

------------------------------------

------------------------------------

------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links

RE: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem

2017-11-07 by Scott Rogers

Yes, definitely a gate. I was just using “trigger” because I’m concerned about the peak of the attack part of the envelope, not the sustain portion. Although, you can see in the waveforms shown in the video that the sustain level also changes. But all information could be helpful to understand and fix the problem.

 

Thanks

Scott

Show quoted textHide quoted text

From: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2017 8:11 AM
To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem

Hello

First of all: we speak of gates, not of triggers!
A trigger marks a timestamp of an event. A gate marks the duration and 
state between the two events(=triggers): key-press and key-release.

Am 07.11.2017 um 13:35 schrieb 'Scott Rogers' scott@scottfromcanada.com 
[Doepfer_a100]:
> Does the peak output of an envelope depend on the voltage of the trigger? 

No. But the duration of the gate and the repeat rate of the gate may 
have an influence, if the attack/decay/release-times are not zero.

Usually the envelope-circuits are buffered by a switching stage against 
the incoming gate. Only in some vintage gear there are envelope 
circuits, which depend on the level of the gate (for example the 
envelope in the Roland System100 depends on the gate level).

Florian

-- 
http://www.florian-anwander.de

Re: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem

2017-11-07 by Florian Anwander

Hello Scott,

Am 07.11.2017 um 14:53 schrieb 'Scott Rogers' scott@scottfromcanada.com 
[Doepfer_a100]:
> Can you provide examples of instruments that work that way? I know of none.
>
> In the 39 years I have been playing synthesizers I have not seen a single
> example of this before now. I have synthesizers made as early as 1973 (Korg
> 700, Roland SH-1000, Polymoog, Arp Axxe-1975), Late 70s (Yamaha CS-10, 15,
> 20m, 40m, Roland Sh-2, Korg MS-10), and some that are brand new (Roland
> SE-02, Korg Arp Odyssey, Korg MS-20mini, DSI Tetra, Mopho and REV 2) and
> many in between. None of them behave in this manner.
Mostly each of them might do so ;-). To test it easily, make attack and 
release slow and repeat the note faster than the release rate but don't 
make the notes as long as the attacktime is. Especially I remember it as 
a feature that players, who came from the monophonic only era, loved at 
the Polymoog in opposite to all other polysynths with roundrobbing 
algorithms.


> And I can't see any point to setting the time settings to zero which
> effectively makes it a gate.
But you should try it at least. It will allow you to track and may be 
understand the behaviour.

> I find it very difficult to believe that
> someone would design an envelope generator that could not actually be used
> as an envelope generator!
They work as envelope generators. But you might never have cared for it, 
and you might be "spoiled" by polysynths, where you do not experience it 
due to the usually used round robbing algorithms of the voice 
assignment, that prevents that an envelope is invoked twice. Also most 
computed envelopes in modern synths - even monophonic ones - might not 
behave like that (for example the envelopes in the JX.-3P do not, though 
in the default algorithm repeated keystrokes on the same notes play the 
same voice).

> This certainly does not solve the problem.
The zero-time test will not solve the problem but it will help you to 
understand the cause.

Florian

-- 
http://www.florian-anwander.de

AW: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem

2017-11-07 by yahoo@doepfer.de

Hello,

I took an A-140 and cannot confirm this behaviour. That's what I did:

- wait about 10 seconds
- permanent high signal to the gate input
- measuring the ADSR output (especially the peak voltage) with
oscilloscope -> peak is about +8.4V
- replacing the permanent gate signal by an LFO rectangle with about 10 Hz
- measuring the ADSR output (especially the peak voltages) with
oscilloscope -> all peaks are about +8.4V

I could detect any difference in the peak level of the "first" envelope
(permanent gate) and the peak levels when the A-140 was triggered by the
LFO.

Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com]
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. November 2017 04:11
> An: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Folks
>
> Sorry to post this again but my whole modular synth is unusable
> until I fix this problem so I still need help.
>
> The problem: All of my envelope generators do the same thing -
> When I play a note they peak at a certain voltage, lets say 5
> volts. But when I play a second note that peak rises to 6 volts.
> And in some cases when I play 16th notes it rises even more.
>
> So when I connect the output of an envelope generator to a VCA
> the first note I play is always MUCH quieter than every following note.
>
> I have 3 Doepfer LC9 cases with various modules in each. This
> behavior is consistent in all three boxes with all of my envelope
> generators.
>
> The modules are:
> Doepfer A-140 (3 of these)
> Doepfer A-143-2 quad
> Roland 540
>
> Also, the all 4 of the envelopes in the A-143-2 do not actually
> sustain. The voltage constantly falls when a note is held, even
> when the sustain level is set to maximum. That is a separate
> problem but I thought I'd mention it.
>
> Also, for some reason the release time of the Roland 540 is only
> 2 seconds (even on the Slow setting) when plugged into any VCA,
> however when it is plugged into the Roland filter the release
> time is much longer. Another weird problem but I thought I'd
> mention it in case it was an important clue.
>
> I have tested the output of all of the envelopes with both analog
> and digital volt meters to confirm the behavior.
>
> At this point I'm not sure what to do to fix this. I guess the
> first question is:  Is this the way these envelopes are supposed
> to work?  I have owned analog synthesizers since 1978 and own a
> lot of them right now and not a single one has this behavior.
> Other than when using velocity sensitivity, every note played is
> exactly the same volume.
>
> Is this a known issue? Are there combination of modules that can
> cause this to happen? Could it be the power supplies? I have
> moved the modules around and found the behavior is the same
> regardless of how many modules (or which ones) are in a case.
>
> What kind of troubleshooting can I do? With only a trigger
> voltage being sent to the Envelope module I don't think there
> could be anything else interfering but I'm looking for any clues
> at all, even the most obvious ones that I may have overlooked.
>
> I did a video to show the problem:  https://youtu.be/x8_1ZnmPWLo
>
> Thanks for any ideas anyone might have!
>
> Scott
>
>
>
>
>
>

AW: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem

2017-11-07 by yahoo@doepfer.de

It should read "I could NOT detect any difference ...". Sorry.
Dieter

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com]
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. November 2017 16:26
> An: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: AW: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem
>
>
> Hello,
>
> I took an A-140 and cannot confirm this behaviour. That's what I did:
>
> - wait about 10 seconds
> - permanent high signal to the gate input
> - measuring the ADSR output (especially the peak voltage) with
> oscilloscope -> peak is about +8.4V
> - replacing the permanent gate signal by an LFO rectangle with about 10 Hz
> - measuring the ADSR output (especially the peak voltages) with
> oscilloscope -> all peaks are about +8.4V
>
> I could detect any difference in the peak level of the "first" envelope
> (permanent gate) and the peak levels when the A-140 was triggered by the
> LFO.
>
> Best wishes
> Dieter Doepfer
>
>
>
> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com]
> > Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. November 2017 04:11
> > An: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> > Betreff: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Folks
> >
> > Sorry to post this again but my whole modular synth is unusable
> > until I fix this problem so I still need help.
> >
> > The problem: All of my envelope generators do the same thing -
> > When I play a note they peak at a certain voltage, lets say 5
> > volts. But when I play a second note that peak rises to 6 volts.
> > And in some cases when I play 16th notes it rises even more.
> >
> > So when I connect the output of an envelope generator to a VCA
> > the first note I play is always MUCH quieter than every following note.
> >
> > I have 3 Doepfer LC9 cases with various modules in each. This
> > behavior is consistent in all three boxes with all of my envelope
> > generators.
> >
> > The modules are:
> > Doepfer A-140 (3 of these)
> > Doepfer A-143-2 quad
> > Roland 540
> >
> > Also, the all 4 of the envelopes in the A-143-2 do not actually
> > sustain. The voltage constantly falls when a note is held, even
> > when the sustain level is set to maximum. That is a separate
> > problem but I thought I'd mention it.
> >
> > Also, for some reason the release time of the Roland 540 is only
> > 2 seconds (even on the Slow setting) when plugged into any VCA,
> > however when it is plugged into the Roland filter the release
> > time is much longer. Another weird problem but I thought I'd
> > mention it in case it was an important clue.
> >
> > I have tested the output of all of the envelopes with both analog
> > and digital volt meters to confirm the behavior.
> >
> > At this point I'm not sure what to do to fix this. I guess the
> > first question is:  Is this the way these envelopes are supposed
> > to work?  I have owned analog synthesizers since 1978 and own a
> > lot of them right now and not a single one has this behavior.
> > Other than when using velocity sensitivity, every note played is
> > exactly the same volume.
> >
> > Is this a known issue? Are there combination of modules that can
> > cause this to happen? Could it be the power supplies? I have
> > moved the modules around and found the behavior is the same
> > regardless of how many modules (or which ones) are in a case.
> >
> > What kind of troubleshooting can I do? With only a trigger
> > voltage being sent to the Envelope module I don't think there
> > could be anything else interfering but I'm looking for any clues
> > at all, even the most obvious ones that I may have overlooked.
> >
> > I did a video to show the problem:  https://youtu.be/x8_1ZnmPWLo
> >
> > Thanks for any ideas anyone might have!
> >
> > Scott
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>

RE: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem

2017-11-07 by Scott Rogers

Thanks for doing this. That's good news... in a way.  Now the question is,
why is this happening?

I think I will have to empty one of the cases and build a very simple
synthesizer with minimal parts and see what happens.

Thanks again!
Scott

Show quoted textHide quoted text

-----Original Message-----
From: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2017 10:26 AM
To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
Subject: AW: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem

Hello,

I took an A-140 and cannot confirm this behaviour. That's what I did:

- wait about 10 seconds
- permanent high signal to the gate input
- measuring the ADSR output (especially the peak voltage) with oscilloscope
-> peak is about +8.4V
- replacing the permanent gate signal by an LFO rectangle with about 10 Hz
- measuring the ADSR output (especially the peak voltages) with oscilloscope
-> all peaks are about +8.4V

I could detect any difference in the peak level of the "first" envelope
(permanent gate) and the peak levels when the A-140 was triggered by the
LFO.

Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer



> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com]
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. November 2017 04:11
> An: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Folks
>
> Sorry to post this again but my whole modular synth is unusable until 
> I fix this problem so I still need help.
>
> The problem: All of my envelope generators do the same thing - When I 
> play a note they peak at a certain voltage, lets say 5 volts. But when 
> I play a second note that peak rises to 6 volts.
> And in some cases when I play 16th notes it rises even more.
>
> So when I connect the output of an envelope generator to a VCA the 
> first note I play is always MUCH quieter than every following note.
>
> I have 3 Doepfer LC9 cases with various modules in each. This behavior 
> is consistent in all three boxes with all of my envelope generators.
>
> The modules are:
> Doepfer A-140 (3 of these)
> Doepfer A-143-2 quad
> Roland 540
>
> Also, the all 4 of the envelopes in the A-143-2 do not actually 
> sustain. The voltage constantly falls when a note is held, even when 
> the sustain level is set to maximum. That is a separate problem but I 
> thought I'd mention it.
>
> Also, for some reason the release time of the Roland 540 is only
> 2 seconds (even on the Slow setting) when plugged into any VCA, 
> however when it is plugged into the Roland filter the release time is 
> much longer. Another weird problem but I thought I'd mention it in 
> case it was an important clue.
>
> I have tested the output of all of the envelopes with both analog and 
> digital volt meters to confirm the behavior.
>
> At this point I'm not sure what to do to fix this. I guess the first 
> question is:  Is this the way these envelopes are supposed to work?  I 
> have owned analog synthesizers since 1978 and own a lot of them right 
> now and not a single one has this behavior.
> Other than when using velocity sensitivity, every note played is 
> exactly the same volume.
>
> Is this a known issue? Are there combination of modules that can cause 
> this to happen? Could it be the power supplies? I have moved the 
> modules around and found the behavior is the same regardless of how 
> many modules (or which ones) are in a case.
>
> What kind of troubleshooting can I do? With only a trigger voltage 
> being sent to the Envelope module I don't think there could be 
> anything else interfering but I'm looking for any clues at all, even 
> the most obvious ones that I may have overlooked.
>
> I did a video to show the problem:  https://youtu.be/x8_1ZnmPWLo
>
> Thanks for any ideas anyone might have!
>
> Scott
>
>
>
>
>
> 



------------------------------------

------------------------------------


------------------------------------

Yahoo Groups Links

AW: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem

2017-11-07 by yahoo@doepfer.de

I took a look at your video: you cannot measure the peak voltage of an ADSR
with a digital multimeter ! For this e.g. an oscilloscope is required. With
the digital multimeter an average value over a period of time is measured
(depending upon the measurement cycle of the meter in question).

Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com]
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. November 2017 16:34
> An: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: RE: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem
>
>
> Thanks for doing this. That's good news... in a way.  Now the question is,
> why is this happening?
>
> I think I will have to empty one of the cases and build a very simple
> synthesizer with minimal parts and see what happens.
>
> Thanks again!
> Scott
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2017 10:26 AM
> To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: AW: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem
>
> Hello,
>
> I took an A-140 and cannot confirm this behaviour. That's what I did:
>
> - wait about 10 seconds
> - permanent high signal to the gate input
> - measuring the ADSR output (especially the peak voltage) with
> oscilloscope
> -> peak is about +8.4V
> - replacing the permanent gate signal by an LFO rectangle with about 10 Hz
> - measuring the ADSR output (especially the peak voltages) with
> oscilloscope
> -> all peaks are about +8.4V
>
> I could detect any difference in the peak level of the "first" envelope
> (permanent gate) and the peak levels when the A-140 was triggered by the
> LFO.
>
> Best wishes
> Dieter Doepfer
>
>
>
> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com]
> > Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. November 2017 04:11
> > An: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> > Betreff: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Folks
> >
> > Sorry to post this again but my whole modular synth is unusable until
> > I fix this problem so I still need help.
> >
> > The problem: All of my envelope generators do the same thing - When I
> > play a note they peak at a certain voltage, lets say 5 volts. But when
> > I play a second note that peak rises to 6 volts.
> > And in some cases when I play 16th notes it rises even more.
> >
> > So when I connect the output of an envelope generator to a VCA the
> > first note I play is always MUCH quieter than every following note.
> >
> > I have 3 Doepfer LC9 cases with various modules in each. This behavior
> > is consistent in all three boxes with all of my envelope generators.
> >
> > The modules are:
> > Doepfer A-140 (3 of these)
> > Doepfer A-143-2 quad
> > Roland 540
> >
> > Also, the all 4 of the envelopes in the A-143-2 do not actually
> > sustain. The voltage constantly falls when a note is held, even when
> > the sustain level is set to maximum. That is a separate problem but I
> > thought I'd mention it.
> >
> > Also, for some reason the release time of the Roland 540 is only
> > 2 seconds (even on the Slow setting) when plugged into any VCA,
> > however when it is plugged into the Roland filter the release time is
> > much longer. Another weird problem but I thought I'd mention it in
> > case it was an important clue.
> >
> > I have tested the output of all of the envelopes with both analog and
> > digital volt meters to confirm the behavior.
> >
> > At this point I'm not sure what to do to fix this. I guess the first
> > question is:  Is this the way these envelopes are supposed to work?  I
> > have owned analog synthesizers since 1978 and own a lot of them right
> > now and not a single one has this behavior.
> > Other than when using velocity sensitivity, every note played is
> > exactly the same volume.
> >
> > Is this a known issue? Are there combination of modules that can cause
> > this to happen? Could it be the power supplies? I have moved the
> > modules around and found the behavior is the same regardless of how
> > many modules (or which ones) are in a case.
> >
> > What kind of troubleshooting can I do? With only a trigger voltage
> > being sent to the Envelope module I don't think there could be
> > anything else interfering but I'm looking for any clues at all, even
> > the most obvious ones that I may have overlooked.
> >
> > I did a video to show the problem:  https://youtu.be/x8_1ZnmPWLo
> >
> > Thanks for any ideas anyone might have!
> >
> > Scott
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: "Scott Rogers" <scott@scottfromcanada.com>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>

RE: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem

2017-11-07 by Scott Rogers

Yes, that is possible but I also used the analog meter. And since the problem is obvious in the waveform of the recorded audio, and to my ears, it\u2019s obvious that the problem is definitely occurring. The voltages may not be exactly correct on the meter but that doesn\u2019t change the fact that the first note is always much quieter. But I may try with the oscilloscope as well.

I don\u2019t remember this happening when I first got the Basis system 2 but maybe I was just too excited to notice it!

I have 2 plans right now. One is to empty a case and only add the midi module and one ADSR. I can also do a test with ONLY the ADSR and use a gate from the SH-2 or Microbrute.

The second is a bit easier and hopefully NOT the problem: All of my gear comes from a single UPS. It seems unlikely the UPS is the problem but I will try plugging these cases into a different outlet and see if that changes anything. I will also not use any power bars for the test. There a few other synthesizers plugged into the same power bar and they work fine so I don\u2019t think this is the problem but you never know.

I had a Creamware Pro12 stop working once because it was plugged into a cheap UPS. That one is entirely digital so it was a very different story, but it\u2019s always worth testing everything!

Thanks again Dieter

Scott

From: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2017 10:48 AM
To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
Subject: AW: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem

I took a look at your video: you cannot measure the peak voltage of an ADSR
with a digital multimeter ! For this e.g. an oscilloscope is required. With
the digital multimeter an average value over a period of time is measured
(depending upon the measurement cycle of the meter in question).

Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer

> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com]
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. November 2017 16:34
> An: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: RE: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem
>
>
> Thanks for doing this. That's good news... in a way. Now the question is,
> why is this happening?
>
> I think I will have to empty one of the cases and build a very simple
> synthesizer with minimal parts and see what happens.
>
> Thanks again!
> Scott
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2017 10:26 AM
> To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: AW: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem
>
> Hello,
>
> I took an A-140 and cannot confirm this behaviour. That's what I did:
>
> - wait about 10 seconds
> - permanent high signal to the gate input
> - measuring the ADSR output (especially the peak voltage) with
> oscilloscope
> -> peak is about +8.4V
> - replacing the permanent gate signal by an LFO rectangle with about 10 Hz
> - measuring the ADSR output (especially the peak voltages) with
> oscilloscope
> -> all peaks are about +8.4V
>
> I could detect any difference in the peak level of the "first" envelope
> (permanent gate) and the peak levels when the A-140 was triggered by the
> LFO.
>
> Best wishes
> Dieter Doepfer
>
>
>
> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com]
> > Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. November 2017 04:11
> > An: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> > Betreff: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem
> >;
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Folks
> >
> > Sorry to post this again but my whole modular synth is unusable until
> > I fix this problem so I still need help.
> >
> > The problem: All of my envelope generators do the same thing - When I
> > play a note they peak at a certain voltage, lets say 5 volts. But when
> > I play a second note that peak rises to 6 volts.
> > And in some cases when I play 16th notes it rises even more.
> >
> > So when I connect the output of an envelope generator to a VCA the
> > first note I play is always MUCH quieter than every following note.
> >
> > I have 3 Doepfer LC9 cases with various modules in each. This behavior
> > is consistent in all three boxes with all of my envelope generators.
> >
> > The modules are:
> > Doepfer A-140 (3 of these)
> > Doepfer A-143-2 quad
> > Roland 540
> >
> > Also, the all 4 of the envelopes in the A-143-2 do not actually
> > sustain. The voltage constantly falls when a note is held, even when
> > the sustain level is set to maximum. That is a separate problem but I
> > thought I'd mention it.
> >
> > Also, for some reason the release time of the Roland 540 is only
>; > 2 seconds (even on the Slow setting) when plugged into any VCA,
> > however when it is plugged into the Roland filter the release time is
> > much longer. Another weird problem but I thought I'd mention it in
> > case it was an important clue.
> >
> > I have tested the output of all of the envelopes with both analog and
> > digital volt meters to confirm the behavior.
> >
> > At this point I'm not sure what to do to fix this. I guess the first
> > question is: Is this the way these envelopes are supposed to work? I
> > have owned analog synthesizers since 1978 and own a lot of them right
> > now and not a single one has this behavior.
> > Other than when using velocity sensitivity, every note played is
> > exactly the same volume.
> >
> > Is this a known issue? Are there combination of modules that can cause
> > this to happen? Could it be the power supplies? I have moved the
> > modules around and found the behavior is the same regardless of how
> > many modules (or which ones) are in a case.
> >
> > What kind of troubleshooting can I do? With only a trigger voltage
> > being sent to the Envelope module I don't think there could be
> > anything else interfering but I'm looking for any clues at all, even
> > the most obvious ones that I may have overlooked.
> >
> > I did a video to show the problem: https://youtu.be/x8_1ZnmPWLo
> >
> > Thanks for any ideas anyone might have!
> >
> > Scott
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
> Posted by: "Scott Rogers" <scott@scottfromcanada.com>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
>
>

AW: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem

2017-11-07 by yahoo@doepfer.de

I also tried a simple patch (all modules in the same case/same supply):

permanent high gate / LFO rectangle -> A-140 gate in
A-140 out -> A-132-3 CV in
A-110-1 sawtooth out -> A-132-3 audio in
A-132-3 out -> scope

There is no diference in the loudness peak between the permanent gate and
the LFO triggered version of the A-140. I have no idea what happened in your
environment. I'd recommend to start with a similar simple patch
(VCO/VCA/ADSR) with all modules in the same case (same supply/GND).

Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com]
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. November 2017 16:59
> An: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: RE: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem
>
>
>
>
>
> Yes, that is possible but I also used the analog meter. And since
> the problem is obvious in the waveform of the recorded audio, and
> to my ears, it’s obvious that the problem is definitely
> occurring. The voltages may not be exactly correct on the meter
> but that doesn’t change the fact that the first note is always
> much quieter. But I may try with the oscilloscope as well.
>
> I don’t remember this happening when I first got the Basis system
> 2 but maybe I was just too excited to notice it!
>
> I have 2 plans right now. One is to empty a case and only add the
> midi module and one ADSR. I can also do a test with ONLY the ADSR
> and use a gate from the SH-2 or Microbrute.
>
> The second is a bit easier and hopefully NOT the problem: All of
> my gear comes from a single UPS. It seems unlikely the UPS is the
> problem but I will try plugging these cases into a different
> outlet and see if that changes anything. I will also not use any
> power bars for the test. There a few other synthesizers plugged
> into the same power bar and they work fine so I don’t think this
> is the problem but you never know.
>
> I had a Creamware Pro12 stop working once because it was plugged
> into a cheap UPS. That one is entirely digital so it was a very
> different story, but it’s always worth testing everything!
>
> Thanks again Dieter
>
> Scott
>
>
>
> From: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2017 10:48 AM
> To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: AW: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem
>
>
> I took a look at your video: you cannot measure the peak voltage
> of an ADSR
> with a digital multimeter ! For this e.g. an oscilloscope is
> required. With
> the digital multimeter an average value over a period of time is measured
> (depending upon the measurement cycle of the meter in question).
>
> Best wishes
> Dieter Doepfer
>
> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com]
> > Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. November 2017 16:34
> > An: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> > Betreff: RE: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem
> >
> >
> > Thanks for doing this. That's good news... in a way. Now the
> question is,
> > why is this happening?
> >
> > I think I will have to empty one of the cases and build a very simple
> > synthesizer with minimal parts and see what happens.
> >
> > Thanks again!
> > Scott
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2017 10:26 AM
> > To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: AW: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > I took an A-140 and cannot confirm this behaviour. That's what I did:
> >
> > - wait about 10 seconds
> > - permanent high signal to the gate input
> > - measuring the ADSR output (especially the peak voltage) with
> > oscilloscope
> > -> peak is about +8.4V
> > - replacing the permanent gate signal by an LFO rectangle with
> about 10 Hz
> > - measuring the ADSR output (especially the peak voltages) with
> > oscilloscope
> > -> all peaks are about +8.4V
> >
> > I could detect any difference in the peak level of the "first" envelope
> > (permanent gate) and the peak levels when the A-140 was triggered by the
> > LFO.
> >
> > Best wishes
> > Dieter Doepfer
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > > Von: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> > > [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com]
> > > Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. November 2017 04:11
> > > An: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> > > Betreff: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Folks
> > >
> > > Sorry to post this again but my whole modular synth is unusable until
> > > I fix this problem so I still need help.
> > >
> > > The problem: All of my envelope generators do the same thing - When I
> > > play a note they peak at a certain voltage, lets say 5 volts. But when
> > > I play a second note that peak rises to 6 volts.
> > > And in some cases when I play 16th notes it rises even more.
> > >
> > > So when I connect the output of an envelope generator to a VCA the
> > > first note I play is always MUCH quieter than every following note.
> > >
> > > I have 3 Doepfer LC9 cases with various modules in each. This behavior
> > > is consistent in all three boxes with all of my envelope generators.
> > >
> > > The modules are:
> > > Doepfer A-140 (3 of these)
> > > Doepfer A-143-2 quad
> > > Roland 540
> > >
> > > Also, the all 4 of the envelopes in the A-143-2 do not actually
> > > sustain. The voltage constantly falls when a note is held, even when
> > > the sustain level is set to maximum. That is a separate problem but I
> > > thought I'd mention it.
> > >
> > > Also, for some reason the release time of the Roland 540 is only
> > > 2 seconds (even on the Slow setting) when plugged into any VCA,
> > > however when it is plugged into the Roland filter the release time is
> > > much longer. Another weird problem but I thought I'd mention it in
> > > case it was an important clue.
> > >
> > > I have tested the output of all of the envelopes with both analog and
> > > digital volt meters to confirm the behavior.
> > >
> > > At this point I'm not sure what to do to fix this. I guess the first
> > > question is: Is this the way these envelopes are supposed to work? I
> > > have owned analog synthesizers since 1978 and own a lot of them right
> > > now and not a single one has this behavior.
> > > Other than when using velocity sensitivity, every note played is
> > > exactly the same volume.
> > >
> > > Is this a known issue? Are there combination of modules that can cause
> > > this to happen? Could it be the power supplies? I have moved the
> > > modules around and found the behavior is the same regardless of how
> > > many modules (or which ones) are in a case.
> > >
> > > What kind of troubleshooting can I do? With only a trigger voltage
> > > being sent to the Envelope module I don't think there could be
> > > anything else interfering but I'm looking for any clues at all, even
> > > the most obvious ones that I may have overlooked.
> > >
> > > I did a video to show the problem: https://youtu.be/x8_1ZnmPWLo
> > >
> > > Thanks for any ideas anyone might have!
> > >
> > > Scott
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> > Posted by: "Scott Rogers" <scott@scottfromcanada.com>
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

RE: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem

2017-11-07 by Scott Rogers

Ok, great. Still good news. I will do the tests I described earlier and
report back.

Thanks again!
Scott

Show quoted textHide quoted text

-----Original Message-----
From: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2017 11:29 AM
To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
Subject: AW: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem

I also tried a simple patch (all modules in the same case/same supply):

permanent high gate / LFO rectangle -> A-140 gate in
A-140 out -> A-132-3 CV in
A-110-1 sawtooth out -> A-132-3 audio in
A-132-3 out -> scope

There is no diference in the loudness peak between the permanent gate and
the LFO triggered version of the A-140. I have no idea what happened in your
environment. I'd recommend to start with a similar simple patch
(VCO/VCA/ADSR) with all modules in the same case (same supply/GND).

Best wishes
Dieter Doepfer


> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com]
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. November 2017 16:59
> An: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: RE: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem
>
>
>
>
>
> Yes, that is possible but I also used the analog meter. And since the 
> problem is obvious in the waveform of the recorded audio, and to my 
> ears, its obvious that the problem is definitely occurring. The 
> voltages may not be exactly correct on the meter but that doesnt 
> change the fact that the first note is always much quieter. But I may 
> try with the oscilloscope as well.
>
> I dont remember this happening when I first got the Basis system
> 2 but maybe I was just too excited to notice it!
>
> I have 2 plans right now. One is to empty a case and only add the midi 
> module and one ADSR. I can also do a test with ONLY the ADSR and use a 
> gate from the SH-2 or Microbrute.
>
> The second is a bit easier and hopefully NOT the problem: All of my 
> gear comes from a single UPS. It seems unlikely the UPS is the problem 
> but I will try plugging these cases into a different outlet and see if 
> that changes anything. I will also not use any power bars for the 
> test. There a few other synthesizers plugged into the same power bar 
> and they work fine so I dont think this is the problem but you never 
> know.
>
> I had a Creamware Pro12 stop working once because it was plugged into 
> a cheap UPS. That one is entirely digital so it was a very different 
> story, but its always worth testing everything!
>
> Thanks again Dieter
>
> Scott
>
>
>
> From: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2017 10:48 AM
> To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: AW: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem
>
>
> I took a look at your video: you cannot measure the peak voltage of an 
> ADSR with a digital multimeter ! For this e.g. an oscilloscope is 
> required. With the digital multimeter an average value over a period 
> of time is measured (depending upon the measurement cycle of the meter 
> in question).
>
> Best wishes
> Dieter Doepfer
>
> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com 
> > [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com]
> > Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. November 2017 16:34
> > An: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> > Betreff: RE: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem
> >
> >
> > Thanks for doing this. That's good news... in a way. Now the
> question is,
> > why is this happening?
> >
> > I think I will have to empty one of the cases and build a very 
> > simple synthesizer with minimal parts and see what happens.
> >
> > Thanks again!
> > Scott
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com 
> > [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 7, 2017 10:26 AM
> > To: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: AW: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > I took an A-140 and cannot confirm this behaviour. That's what I did:
> >
> > - wait about 10 seconds
> > - permanent high signal to the gate input
> > - measuring the ADSR output (especially the peak voltage) with 
> > oscilloscope
> > -> peak is about +8.4V
> > - replacing the permanent gate signal by an LFO rectangle with
> about 10 Hz
> > - measuring the ADSR output (especially the peak voltages) with 
> > oscilloscope
> > -> all peaks are about +8.4V
> >
> > I could detect any difference in the peak level of the "first" 
> > envelope (permanent gate) and the peak levels when the A-140 was 
> > triggered by the LFO.
> >
> > Best wishes
> > Dieter Doepfer
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > > Von: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> > > [mailto:Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com]
> > > Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. November 2017 04:11
> > > An: Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com
> > > Betreff: [Doepfer_a100] Envelope Generator Problem
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Folks
> > >
> > > Sorry to post this again but my whole modular synth is unusable 
> > > until I fix this problem so I still need help.
> > >
> > > The problem: All of my envelope generators do the same thing - 
> > > When I play a note they peak at a certain voltage, lets say 5 
> > > volts. But when I play a second note that peak rises to 6 volts.
> > > And in some cases when I play 16th notes it rises even more.
> > >
> > > So when I connect the output of an envelope generator to a VCA the 
> > > first note I play is always MUCH quieter than every following note.
> > >
> > > I have 3 Doepfer LC9 cases with various modules in each. This 
> > > behavior is consistent in all three boxes with all of my envelope
generators.
> > >
> > > The modules are:
> > > Doepfer A-140 (3 of these)
> > > Doepfer A-143-2 quad
> > > Roland 540
> > >
> > > Also, the all 4 of the envelopes in the A-143-2 do not actually 
> > > sustain. The voltage constantly falls when a note is held, even 
> > > when the sustain level is set to maximum. That is a separate 
> > > problem but I thought I'd mention it.
> > >
> > > Also, for some reason the release time of the Roland 540 is only
> > > 2 seconds (even on the Slow setting) when plugged into any VCA, 
> > > however when it is plugged into the Roland filter the release time 
> > > is much longer. Another weird problem but I thought I'd mention it 
> > > in case it was an important clue.
> > >
> > > I have tested the output of all of the envelopes with both analog 
> > > and digital volt meters to confirm the behavior.
> > >
> > > At this point I'm not sure what to do to fix this. I guess the 
> > > first question is: Is this the way these envelopes are supposed to 
> > > work? I have owned analog synthesizers since 1978 and own a lot of 
> > > them right now and not a single one has this behavior.
> > > Other than when using velocity sensitivity, every note played is 
> > > exactly the same volume.
> > >
> > > Is this a known issue? Are there combination of modules that can 
> > > cause this to happen? Could it be the power supplies? I have moved 
> > > the modules around and found the behavior is the same regardless 
> > > of how many modules (or which ones) are in a case.
> > >
> > > What kind of troubleshooting can I do? With only a trigger voltage 
> > > being sent to the Envelope module I don't think there could be 
> > > anything else interfering but I'm looking for any clues at all, 
> > > even the most obvious ones that I may have overlooked.
> > >
> > > I did a video to show the problem: https://youtu.be/x8_1ZnmPWLo
> > >
> > > Thanks for any ideas anyone might have!
> > >
> > > Scott
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> > Posted by: "Scott Rogers" <scott@scottfromcanada.com>
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> 



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Yahoo Groups Links