Homebrew PCBs

Hi folks,
  I've just picked up a Dremel Multipro 285 (the two-speed 10kRPM/33kRPM
model with a collet chuck - \ufffd35 at B&Q). It seems I've got a good one - the
drill bit is visibly more stable in comparison to my old drill, and even at
33,000RPM I can't see any vibration at the tip of the bit (IIRC it's called
runout - how do you measure it, anyway?).

  My last drill - an Expo Reliant - had an absolutely dire keyless chuck. The
chuck is now so full of dust, dirt and FR4 that it no longer works
properly - hence the replacement. Well, that's my excuse anyway.

  I even managed to drill a few holes by hand with a 0.8mm tungsten-carbide
bit. I would never in a million years have gotten away with doing that with
the Reliant...

  I'm not sure how well it'll handle linear loading, but my guess is "not too
badly" seeing as it came with a carborundum disc attachment... I may be
tempted to get a flexible drive shaft and use that with the cutter, if only
to save putting too much stress on the bearings in the tool.

  Now all I need to do is modify my old drill stand to take the Dremel.
That's going to be a "fun" job... Let's see, Polymorph, cable ties and a
cordless drill. Fun! :)

  But thank %DEITY you don't need holes for surface-mount.. Except for the
vias. And the components that are only available in through-hole. D'oh, just
can't get away from them holes...

Later,
-- 
Phil.                              | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT
philpem@...              | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB
http://www.philpem.me.uk/          | Sony MZ-N710 NetMD Minidisc
... 24 hours in a day and 24 beers in a case.  Hmmmm.....

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 20:16:45 +0200, Philip Pemberton  
<philpem@...> wrote:

>
>   But thank %DEITY you don't need holes for surface-mount.. Except for  
> the
> vias. And the components that are only available in through-hole. D'oh,  
> just
> can't get away from them holes...
> Later,


LOL!

When do you think will we have a setting in our browsers/mail software  
"Favorite Deity:" and it really automatically replaces %DEITY with it?

That really had me laughing..


As for the dremel, you seem to have had luck. Sideloads should be ok, i  
think those are constructed with the bearings wide apart front/back of  
motor.

ST

I wouldn't consider the tools using the flexible shaft as a stronger
alternative than the main unit.  The 'bearing' mechanism (it could be brass
bushings) in the pen attachment is even more fragile than the one inside the
main unit.

The shaft is a very fragile thing if you abuse it.  As long as you respect
the minimum bending limit, they are ok.  But the pen is better suited to do
extra fine work.

The shaft will flex under load and most likely snap at some point.  The best
setup to use the shaft tool is to suspend the main unit from the ceiling.
Set it at a confortable height where you can easily work with the pen, kinda
like the IV bag and pole they use in hospitals.

Robert
:)


-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de Philip Pemberton
Envoyé : juillet 28 2005 14:17
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] Dremel as PCB drill

I may be tempted to get a flexible drive shaft and use that with the cutter,
if only to save putting too much stress on the bearings in the tool.

Later,
-- 
Phil.                              | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT
philpem@...              | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB
http://www.philpem.me.uk/          | Sony MZ-N710 NetMD Minidisc
... 24 hours in a day and 24 beers in a case.  Hmmmm.....


Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs

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On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:29:56 +0200, Robert Hedan  
<robert.hedan@...> wrote:

> I wouldn't consider the tools using the flexible shaft as a stronger
> alternative than the main unit.  The 'bearing' mechanism (it could be  
> brass
> bushings) in the pen attachment is even more fragile than the one inside  
> the
> main unit.


I think the thought was to prevent damage to the main unit bearings (and  
increase in runout).

If the shaft handpiece is worn you can just get a new one.

ST

In message <op.sum00tk3mg0lsf@tu-x2pj5qeyp2u4>
          "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

> When do you think will we have a setting in our browsers/mail software  
> "Favorite Deity:" and it really automatically replaces %DEITY with it?
> 
> That really had me laughing..

Actually, I started using it after I accidentally started a flamewar by
saying "But thank God <x>." Someone said something along the lines of "That's
blasphemous", followed by someone else arguing that it wasn't, followed by
various other things along the lines of "But what about the [other religion]
folks?" and such... ISTR it degenerated to such a degree that I got warned by
the list admin not to do it again, reference to religion was added to the "Do
Not Do This!" part of the list charter, and %DEITY came in to use on that
particular list...

Personally, I think some of my taglines are funnier, but no-one ever looks at
them. Stuff like:
  Engineers do it in Volts
  Oscillators don't, amplifiers do
  Hackers do it with bugs
  I'll take your 20kV and raise you 200kV. Go on, step off that plate. I dare you.
  "High voltage? Yeah right. I can hold this wire with my fing.. YEAAGH!" *thud*
  I was going to procrastinate, but I put it off until later.
.. and stuff like that. I'll probably upload my tagline file to my website at
some point. Problem is, I just keep adding to it :)

> As for the dremel, you seem to have had luck. Sideloads should be ok, i  
> think those are constructed with the bearings wide apart front/back of  
> motor.

Well, as long as it'll take a reasonable beating. I just don't want to end up
throwing it out of alignment and making it as bad as my old drill. Ideally
I'd like to keep the runout as close to zero as possible (i.e. "no worse than
it is now").

Next job: Work out how the heck to get those Harwin pins into a PCB. Methinks
it's time to modify an automatic centre punch.

Later.
-- 
Phil.                              | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT
philpem@...              | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB
http://www.philpem.me.uk/          | Sony MZ-N710 NetMD Minidisc
... Did you know that no-one ever reads these things?

In message <op.sum5c21pmg0lsf@tu-x2pj5qeyp2u4>
          "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

> I think the thought was to prevent damage to the main unit bearings (and  
> increase in runout).

That was my thought - wreck the handpiece instead of the tool. Then again,
the MultiPro 285 and the 225 flexible driveshaft are about the same price as
far as I can tell.

I still need to sort out a drill stand and it's a toss-up between the Dremel
220 Workstation (which looks a bit crap to me, anyone used one?) and the
Wolfcraft 8407 (aka 3407, 3407000, B3407). Unless anyone happens to know of
another reasonably good sub-\ufffd35 drill stand that's easily available in the UK
and pretty well made (i.e. doesn't vibrate like mad when the drill is running
at the full 33kRPM).

Photos of both on <http://www.tool-shop.co.uk/acatalog/Dremel.html>. I
suspect details of the Dremel 220 will be on <www.dremel.com> somewhere; the
manual for the Wolfcraft stand is on <http://www.wolfcraft.de/>, under
Manuals -> Attachments -> Drill stands. Not sure about specs, but it claims
to be suitable for a Dremel.

Later.
-- 
Phil.                              | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT
philpem@...              | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB
http://www.philpem.me.uk/          | Sony MZ-N710 NetMD Minidisc
... Violence is a lousy substitute for drugs and sex

Philip Pemberton wrote:

>In message <op.sum5c21pmg0lsf@tu-x2pj5qeyp2u4>
>          "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>I think the thought was to prevent damage to the main unit bearings (and  
>>increase in runout).
>>    
>>
>
>That was my thought - wreck the handpiece instead of the tool. Then again,
>the MultiPro 285 and the 225 flexible driveshaft are about the same price as
>far as I can tell.
>
>
>Photos of both on <http://www.tool-shop.co.uk/acatalog/Dremel.html>. I
>suspect details of the Dremel 220 will be on <www.dremel.com> somewhere; the
>manual for the Wolfcraft stand is on <http://www.wolfcraft.de/>, under
>Manuals -> Attachments -> Drill stands. Not sure about specs, but it claims
>to be suitable for a Dremel.
>
>Later.
>  
>

  The handpiece being a single width shaft will make it easier to 
modify.  Dremel expects you to use high RPM and only lightly load the 
tool, letting the RPM do the work.  Ball bearings will wear quickly if 
there is any real load with high speed and a small contact patch, real 
tools use roller or taper bearings, or at the very least large or 
multiple ball bearings.  Might take some looking but when it does get 
bad, you should be able to find roller bearings that would work.  Should 
also use a thrust bearing then, but could probably get away without it 
with the upper (still ball) bearing taking that load..

  I've looked at it before, but for what I do it's not really 
necessary.  Even if you didn't find an exact bearing, for non-hand use 
it wouldn't matter if you used a larger bearing and made a funky shaped 
adaptation for the handle.

  For mounting the Dremel itself, unplug, open the tool, drill holes in 
the case, and use nylon screws pointing out through the holes and nuts 
on the outside.  Your securely attached nylon screws are now sticking 
out to mount to, very easy to do a lot of different setups from that and 
you're reasonably safe with nylon.

Alan

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 23:32:28 +0200, Philip Pemberton  
<philpem@...> wrote:

>
> Actually, I started using it after I accidentally started a flamewar by
> saying "But thank God <x>." Someone said something along the lines of  
> "That's
> blasphemous", followed by someone else arguing that it wasn't, followed  
> by
> various other things along the lines of "But what about the [other  
> religion]
> folks?" and such... ISTR it degenerated to such a degree that I got  
> warned by
> the list admin not to do it again, reference to religion was added to  
> the "Do
> Not Do This!" part of the list charter, and %DEITY came in to use on that
> particular list...


I don't see why you shouldn't be able to thank your favourite deity in  
public how you want. I mean it is you thanking it/him/her and not someone  
else believing in something else. Pretty intolerant of some people to  
complain.


i just found it funny somehow that things have come to use %deity, in a  
way it shows how society is today. But really people should be more  
tolerant.

ST

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 23:40:17 +0200, Philip Pemberton  
<philpem@...> wrote:

>
> That was my thought - wreck the handpiece instead of the tool. Then  
> again,
> the MultiPro 285 and the 225 flexible driveshaft are about the same  
> price as
> far as I can tell.

I got my flexible shaft as a off brand accessory for a small table saw  
that wasn't sold for years i assume. The box had this yellowish look and  
really old print on it. Was only about 10eur with a lot of accessories.

> I still need to sort out a drill stand and it's a toss-up between the  
> Dremel
> 220 Workstation (which looks a bit crap to me, anyone used one?) and the
> Wolfcraft 8407 (aka 3407, 3407000, B3407). Unless anyone happens to know  
> of
> another reasonably good sub-\ufffd35 drill stand that's easily available in  
> the UK
> and pretty well made (i.e. doesn't vibrate like mad when the drill is  
> running
> at the full 33kRPM).



Why not make your own pivoting drill press?
pretty precise, and free or almost free, depending on the stuff you have  
sitting around.

ST

In message <op.sunvmoczmg0lsf@tu-x2pj5qeyp2u4>
          "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

> Why not make your own pivoting drill press?
> pretty precise, and free or almost free, depending on the stuff you have  
> sitting around.

I would if I knew how to do it... I've got a pair of dead Laserjet IIIs lying
around (full of mechanical bits) and the guts of an old scanner, not to
mention the old drill stand (=crap) and the various offcuts of FR4, wood and
aluminium sheet.

The problem is working out how to put it together to make a drill press
that'll take the Dremel...

Later.
-- 
Phil.                              | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT
philpem@...              | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB
http://www.philpem.me.uk/          | Sony MZ-N710 NetMD Minidisc
... "Bother", said Pooh, as he kicked hell out of his modem

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:46:04 +0200, Philip Pemberton  
<philpem@...> wrote:

>
> I would if I knew how to do it... I've got a pair of dead Laserjet IIIs  
> lying
> around (full of mechanical bits) and the guts of an old scanner, not to
> mention the old drill stand (=crap) and the various offcuts of FR4, wood  
> and
> aluminium sheet.
> The problem is working out how to put it together to make a drill press
> that'll take the Dremel...
> Later.


might make photos of mine... in fact there are some..

<http://trethan.at.tf/pub/img1/>

all that start with "drill".


I have made some changes in the meantime, the bearings went down in the  
back, and that last wood piece that holds the drill can now be tilted down  
(using shims) to achieve a more tangential movement.

Also, i made a stop close to the drill (actually it is a screw clamped  
with the grinder clamp).
This is better than the stop at the side because it does not twist the  
drill when it hits the stop, and it holds the pcb down in that critical  
moment where the drill tries to lift it. Since i made those changes i  
haven't broken any drills.
I clamp a machine vice to the end of the pivoting arm that sticks out the  
back, which has just the right weight to balance the arm. You could also  
use a spring.



You don't need the "box" below the drill platform, i made it because this  
unit is prepared to hold a simple projection mechanism to magnify the  
drill area, but i doubt i'll ever get around to adding it. but the box is  
neat to store drill boxes and stuff.
When drilling a lot of holes i add a lamp and a vacuum.


Now for making the whole thing easier to build, you can use piano hinges  
instead of the thrust bearings.
Instead if the complicated pivoting frame you can use a triangular plate,  
one corner holds the drill in a hole, and the opposite edge is hinged.  
another board as base and you are done. (might need a spacer at the back  
to get the correct height for the hinge).

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Philip Pemberton <philpem@d...>
wrote:
> In message <op.sunvmoczmg0lsf@tu-x2pj5qeyp2u4>
>           "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> 
> > Why not make your own pivoting drill press?
> > pretty precise, and free or almost free, depending on the stuff
you have  
> > sitting around.
> 
> I would if I knew how to do it... I've got a pair of dead Laserjet
IIIs lying
> around (full of mechanical bits) and the guts of an old scanner, not to
> mention the old drill stand (=crap) and the various offcuts of FR4,
wood and
> aluminium sheet.
> 
> The problem is working out how to put it together to make a drill press
> that'll take the Dremel...

I have been using a dremel with keyless chuck hand held for a while
now with high speed steel bits, have just mounted it on a $10aus drill
press. Bought a nut that screws on the nose of the dremel machined the
outside to fit the clamp of drill press and hey presto drill bit comes
down square to board now. I'm slowly getting gear together to build
cnc driller will use dremel in it for a while but probably make a
spindle with good bearings.
Philip 
> 
> Later.
> -- 
> Phil.                              | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB
100baseT

> philpem@p...              | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB
> http://www.philpem.me.uk/          | Sony MZ-N710 NetMD Minidisc
> ... "Bother", said Pooh, as he kicked hell out of his modem

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:59:37 +0200, electrophilip  
<electrophil@...> wrote:

>
> I have been using a dremel with keyless chuck hand held for a while
> now with high speed steel bits, have just mounted it on a $10aus drill
> press. Bought a nut that screws on the nose of the dremel machined the
> outside to fit the clamp of drill press and hey presto drill bit comes
> down square to board now. I'm slowly getting gear together to build
> cnc driller will use dremel in it for a while but probably make a
> spindle with good bearings.
> Philip


With HSS bits none of the problems of runout or instability of the  
drillstand is going to matter, at all.
You can comfortably freehand drill with HSS without ever breaking a drill.

Of course, there's that other problem with hss, that they are dull after  
the second hole and work rather like a blunt stick, i.e. melting the hole  
rather than drilling it.


Perfectly acceptable approach for many homebrew boards however.

ST

As far as making your own Dremel drill press stand, I believe dremel 
makes a stand for them. You can usually find them in model builders 
supply catalogs.
Bruce

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "brcxsive" <brcxsive@y...> wrote:
> As far as making your own Dremel drill press stand, I believe dremel 
> makes a stand for them. You can usually find them in model builders 
> supply catalogs.
> Bruce

I feel that Dremel tools have way too much spindle runout for PCB
work. The Dremel drill press stand is somewhat flimsy and makes it
even worse. Several years ago I bought a KBC Model CBD-6-SP high speed
drill press which works great. They are priced at $145.00 (USD) I use
carbide drills with this machine and have never broken a bit while
drilling although I have broken several bits due to careless handling.
Anyone considering purchasing a manual drilling unit should take a
look at this drill press. 

Here is the web address for KBC Tools:

http://www.kbctools.com

Tom

Dremel runout is insignificant. Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "twb8899" <twb8899@y...> wrote:
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "brcxsive" <brcxsive@y...> 
wrote:
> > As far as making your own Dremel drill press stand, I believe 
dremel 
> > makes a stand for them. You can usually find them in model 
builders 
> > supply catalogs.
> > Bruce
> 
> I feel that Dremel tools have way too much spindle runout for PCB
> work. The Dremel drill press stand is somewhat flimsy and makes it
> even worse. Several years ago I bought a KBC Model CBD-6-SP high 
speed
> drill press which works great. They are priced at $145.00 (USD) I 
use
> carbide drills with this machine and have never broken a bit while
> drilling although I have broken several bits due to careless 
handling.

> Anyone considering purchasing a manual drilling unit should take a
> look at this drill press. 
> 
> Here is the web address for KBC Tools:
> 
> http://www.kbctools.com
> 
> Tom

In message <dcrtb7+cq3c@...>
          "mikezcnc" <eemikez@...> wrote:

> Dremel runout is insignificant. Mike

Agreed. If you want to see severe runout, borrow one of the Expo Tools 12V
minidrills, put it in some form of stand and power it up. Note the fact that
the drill bit looks more triangular than straight while the drill is
operating...

I've ordered a Wolfcraft 8407 (seems to be the same as the B3407, aka 3407)
drill stand, which should arrive tomorrow (assuming CityLink manage to find
the house, now that a bunch of morons have stolen the street sign).

I've heard rumours that Dremel have recalled the 220 Workstation (the
replacement for the 212 Drill Stand). Can anyone confirm that?

Later.
-- 
Phil.                              | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT
philpem@...              | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB
http://www.philpem.me.uk/          | Sony MZ-N710 NetMD Minidisc
... "I see!" said the blind man as he picked up his hammer and saw.

check this out guys

http://cgi.ebay.com/5-SPEED-MINI-DRILL-PRESS-BENCH-TOP-UNIT-NEW_W0QQitemZ7536609975QQcategoryZ67226QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

might just want to copy n paste the link.
or look for mini drill press.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "brcxsive" <brcxsive@y...> wrote:

> As far as making your own Dremel drill press stand, I believe dremel 
> makes a stand for them. You can usually find them in model builders 
> supply catalogs.
> Bruce

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 15:52:58 +0200, rt2d_user <rt2d_user@...> wrote:

> check this out guys
> http://cgi.ebay.com/5-SPEED-MINI-DRILL-PRESS-BENCH-TOP-UNIT-
> NEW_W0QQitemZ7536609975QQcategoryZ67226QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
> might just want to copy n paste the link.
> or look for mini drill press.


very low rpm. unknown runout but those surely aren't precision. 30eur  
regular price at DIY stores here in europe.
anyone have one?

ST

Hi,

I have one of those for general DIY stuff.
It's NOT suitable for pcb drilling. The thing vibrates a LOT at the higher
speeds and will easily break any drill below 1.5-2mm in diameter. Also, it's
rpm is only about 2000 to 2500 max. Not suitable at all for fiber glass and
tungsten carbide. Besides, to change the speeds you have to open it's top
and change the belt from one pulley to another pulley manually. It's cheap,
but it's only for general, low precision stuff.

Best,

Nuno Tavares

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of rt2d_user
> Sent: domingo, 7 de Agosto de 2005 14:53
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Dremel as PCB drill
> 
> check this out guys
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/5-SPEED-MINI-DRILL-PRESS-BENCH-TOP-UNIT-
> NEW_W0QQitemZ7536609975QQcategoryZ67226QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewIt
> em
> 
> might just want to copy n paste the link.
> or look for mini drill press.
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "brcxsive" <brcxsive@y...> wrote:
> > As far as making your own Dremel drill press stand, I believe dremel
> > makes a stand for them. You can usually find them in model builders
> > supply catalogs.
> > Bruce
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> 
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
>