Homebrew PCBs

I give up.  Yahoo's seach engine is horrible since the change.

I know that we ride a tide of what is best and it changes for
different reasons.

I have used plan copy paper, magazine paper and such.

Can anyone offer a apper that meets these criteria ?
easy to obtain, found in some common stores like Staple or Wal-Mart ?
relatvily low price,  not 75 cents a sheet

I like wide traces, 25mil is fine for what I do, so I do not need to
get 6 mil traces.

On the debate of the professionalism of thin traces, I find that when
a trace burns, wider traces are easier to fix.  Luckily, It's been a
couple years.

But, I do agree that pads that are larger than traces look better.

Dave

Well, I use any regular inkjet paper.  Inkjet paper is coated so the
ink doesn't wick and that coating makes for reasonable release.  I'm
sure there is better but I don't want to spend my life experimenting
with paper.  I've used office depot, staples and HP brands.  They all
work about the same but the O.D. paper I got most recently seems a
little better.  It was around $4 for 500 sheets.  I think that pretty
much meets your spec.  I can do 10 mil with this paper.  At 12 mil its
very reliable.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...>
wrote:

> I give up.  Yahoo's seach engine is horrible since the change.
> 
> I know that we ride a tide of what is best and it changes for
> different reasons.
> 
> I have used plan copy paper, magazine paper and such.
> 
> Can anyone offer a apper that meets these criteria ?
> easy to obtain, found in some common stores like Staple or Wal-Mart ?
> relatvily low price,  not 75 cents a sheet
> 
> I like wide traces, 25mil is fine for what I do, so I do not need to
> get 6 mil traces.
> 
> On the debate of the professionalism of thin traces, I find that when
> a trace burns, wider traces are easier to fix.  Luckily, It's been a
> couple years.
> 
> But, I do agree that pads that are larger than traces look better.
> 
> Dave

Hi Dave,

Sorry I can't recommend a paper locally, but I have used the Pulsar 
product I got via mail order. It's expensive (around a buck a sheet 
I think) and it worked okay on my first two attempts. I have yet to 
get Clean, solid traces yet either though.  I have been working 
with .015" traces and all but one has been good.  Pitting (missing 
spots) seems to be my problem so far, but I will continue to try.

My focus at present isn't on making it look profesional, it's just 
making it look acceptable to show someone :-(  So, I share your 
opinions on trace size too.

Chris







--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha" <dave_mucha@y...> 
wrote:
> I give up.  Yahoo's seach engine is horrible since the change.
> 
> I know that we ride a tide of what is best and it changes for
> different reasons.
> 
> I have used plan copy paper, magazine paper and such.
> 
> Can anyone offer a apper that meets these criteria ?
> easy to obtain, found in some common stores like Staple or Wal-
Mart ?
> relatvily low price,  not 75 cents a sheet
> 
> I like wide traces, 25mil is fine for what I do, so I do not need 
to
> get 6 mil traces.
> 
> On the debate of the professionalism of thin traces, I find that 
when
> a trace burns, wider traces are easier to fix.  Luckily, It's been 
a

> couple years.
> 
> But, I do agree that pads that are larger than traces look better.
> 
> Dave

Hi,


just wondering, a small wave soldering machine, would it tin a board  
without soldermask properly so it can be populated or would the solder  
tent the holes? How would the minimum spacing be to avoid bridges, without  
mask?


ST

<speculation
Unless you had something blowing the molten solder out of the holes, 
I'd expect that the solder would wick into all of the holes. A wave 
solder machine fills the holes when there are leads present. Without 
the leads, I'd expect that to still occur.

Without solder mask, I'd also expect you'd get a lot of shorting of 
adjacent traces even with a very wide separation between them.
/speculation>

Somebody makes a chemical solution that does what you're looking 
for. IIRC, it's called 'Tinnit'.


Regards, Bob


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> 
> just wondering, a small wave soldering machine, would it tin a 
board  
> without soldermask properly so it can be populated or would the 
solder  
> tent the holes? How would the minimum spacing be to avoid bridges, 
without  

> mask?
> 
> 
> ST

> just wondering, a small wave soldering machine, would it tin a board  
> without soldermask properly so it can be populated or would the 

My tinning method - "paint" on solder paste then use hot air gun.

High grade water soluble plumber's solder paste is fairly cheap and 
works very well. It can be thinned with water before painting on. The 
trick is to use thin layers just as when painting. That way you control 
bridging and blocking of holes. Just wash off residues with water when 
done. It was used here;

http://www.pbase.com/eldata/image/46673206/original

I've also tried Cool Amp, Tinnit and solder pot methods similar to what 
you're questioning, sloder paste is the way to go.

On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:38:51 +0200, Bob_xyz <bob_barr@...> wrote:

> Unless you had something blowing the molten solder out of the holes,
> I'd expect that the solder would wick into all of the holes. A wave
> solder machine fills the holes when there are leads present. Without
> the leads, I'd expect that to still occur.
> Without solder mask, I'd also expect you'd get a lot of shorting of
> adjacent traces even with a very wide separation between them.
> /speculation>
> Somebody makes a chemical solution that does what you're looking
> for. IIRC, it's called 'Tinnit'.
> Regards, Bob


i suspect the same.

i do not like anything with thiourea for health reasons so electroless is  
out.


thanks


ST

On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:11:39 +0200, derekhawkins <derekhawkins@...>  
wrote:

> My tinning method - "paint" on solder paste then use hot air gun.
> High grade water soluble plumber's solder paste is fairly cheap and
> works very well. It can be thinned with water before painting on. The
> trick is to use thin layers just as when painting. That way you control
> bridging and blocking of holes. Just wash off residues with water when
> done. It was used here;
> http://www.pbase.com/eldata/image/46673206/original
> I've also tried Cool Amp, Tinnit and solder pot methods similar to what
> you're questioning, sloder paste is the way to go.


good idea!

What i tried a while back is painting the board with flux and sprinkling  
solder filings on, but it didn't work well.
Will try to find such paste, tho they've replaced it all with leadfree  
now. Maybe it works too, would be nice not to have the lead everywhere.


ST

Man that is a great board, just a couple of questions:
was that using toner transfer?
where do you get the solder paste at a industrial plb supply??


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "derekhawkins" 
<derekhawkins@y...> wrote:
> > just wondering, a small wave soldering machine, would it tin a 
board  
> > without soldermask properly so it can be populated or would the 
> 
> My tinning method - "paint" on solder paste then use hot air gun.
> 
> High grade water soluble plumber's solder paste is fairly cheap 
and 
> works very well. It can be thinned with water before painting on. 
The 
> trick is to use thin layers just as when painting. That way you 
control 
> bridging and blocking of holes. Just wash off residues with water 
when 
> done. It was used here;
> 
> http://www.pbase.com/eldata/image/46673206/original
> 
> I've also tried Cool Amp, Tinnit and solder pot methods similar to 
what 
> you're questioning, sloder paste is the way to go.

hey--thanks derek,just what i was looking for.  didnt
know there was that kind of solder. ill get some and
try it.
mebo






--- derekhawkins <derekhawkins@...> wrote:

> > just wondering, a small wave soldering machine,
> would it tin a board  
> > without soldermask properly so it can be populated
> or would the 
> 
> My tinning method - "paint" on solder paste then use
> hot air gun.
> 
> High grade water soluble plumber's solder paste is
> fairly cheap and 
> works very well. It can be thinned with water before
> painting on. The 
> trick is to use thin layers just as when painting.
> That way you control 
> bridging and blocking of holes. Just wash off
> residues with water when 
> done. It was used here;
> 
> http://www.pbase.com/eldata/image/46673206/original
> 
> I've also tried Cool Amp, Tinnit and solder pot
> methods similar to what 
> you're questioning, sloder paste is the way to go.
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
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Hi Derek,

On 8/15/05, derekhawkins <derekhawkins@...> wrote:
> My tinning method - "paint" on solder paste then use hot air gun.

So does the soldering paste you're talking about have solder in it? Or
is it just the flux?

-- 
Dave Hylands
Vancouver, BC, Canada
http://www.DaveHylands.com/

I think it does from the description.  I wonder if you can reflow with
it (i.e. no solder mask needed?).  worth a try.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Dave Hylands <dhylands@g...> wrote:

> Hi Derek,
> 
> On 8/15/05, derekhawkins <derekhawkins@y...> wrote:
> > My tinning method - "paint" on solder paste then use hot air gun.
> 
> So does the soldering paste you're talking about have solder in it? Or
> is it just the flux?
> 
> -- 
> Dave Hylands
> Vancouver, BC, Canada
> http://www.DaveHylands.com/

Solder paste consists solder, in the form of tiny spheres, suspended 
in a semi-liquid flux paste. Heating drives off the flux and melts 
the solder onto the copper traces or pads. 

Surface tension of the melted solder will tend to keep it on the 
copper but you'd want to put the paste on the copper fairly 
carefully rather than painting it all over the board. Surface 
tension can only do so much.


Regards, Bob


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Dave Hylands <dhylands@g...> 
wrote:
> 
> So does the soldering paste you're talking about have solder in 
it? Or

> is it just the flux?
> 
> -- 
> Dave Hylands
> Vancouver, BC, Canada
> http://www.DaveHylands.com/

Hi Bob,

On 8/15/05, Bob_xyz <bob_barr@...> wrote:
> Solder paste consists solder, in the form of tiny spheres, suspended
> in a semi-liquid flux paste. Heating drives off the flux and melts
> the solder onto the copper traces or pads.

I'm familiar with the solder paste used for surface mount soldering.

So far, all of the references to "plumbers" solder paste are referring
to a flux only material.

-- 
Dave Hylands
Vancouver, BC, Canada
http://www.DaveHylands.com/

On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 06:45:23 +0200, Dave Hylands <dhylands@...>  
wrote:

> I'm familiar with the solder paste used for surface mount soldering.
> So far, all of the references to "plumbers" solder paste are referring
> to a flux only material.


nah there's stuff now that is much the same, for plumbing, with solder in  
it.

ST

Some time ago there was a description of a green paint for use on  
printed circuit boards. This paint is applied after a board is  
drilled and burns off when soldered. The end result is a uniformly  
covered board that's protected against corrosion. Only trouble is: I  
lost the name and source of this paint.
Terry

Man that is a great board, just a couple of questions:
was that using toner transfer?
where do you get the solder paste at a industrial plb supply??


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "derekhawkins" 
<derekhawkins@y...> wrote:
> > just wondering, a small wave soldering machine, would it tin a 
board  
> > without soldermask properly so it can be populated or would the 
> 
> My tinning method - "paint" on solder paste then use hot air gun.
> 
> High grade water soluble plumber's solder paste is fairly cheap 
and 
> works very well. It can be thinned with water before painting on. 
The 
> trick is to use thin layers just as when painting. That way you 
control 
> bridging and blocking of holes. Just wash off residues with water 
when 
> done. It was used here;
> 
> http://www.pbase.com/eldata/image/46673206/original
> 
> I've also tried Cool Amp, Tinnit and solder pot methods similar to 
what 
> you're questioning, sloder paste is the way to go.

>was that using toner transfer?

No, photoresist. Stopped using TT around 5 years ago.

>where do you get the solder paste at a industrial plb supply??

This is what I use;

http://www.mcmaster.com/ (Part # 7683A3)

I've never used it for SMD work but see no reason why it couldn't be 
used for such. Using solder paste, as with anything else, requires 
practice.

On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 16:00:17 +0200, derekhawkins <derekhawkins@...>  
wrote:

> This is what I use;
> http://www.mcmaster.com/ (Part # 7683A3)
> I've never used it for SMD work but see no reason why it couldn't be
> used for such. Using solder paste, as with anything else, requires
> practice.


as long as the flux is not a problem....
any idea what it is?

ST

>you'd want to put the paste on the copper fairly
>carefully rather than painting it all over the board.

This is not an issue. Just paint the whole board with a thin layer of 
the stuff. The tiny beads of solder that form where there is no copper 
will wash off easily with water. As with painting, several thin layers 
are better than one thick layer.

>as long as the flux is not a problem....
>any idea what it is?

Not certain, have to check.

On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 17:13:31 +0200, derekhawkins <derekhawkins@...>  
wrote:

>
> This is not an issue. Just paint the whole board with a thin layer of
> the stuff. The tiny beads of solder that form where there is no copper
> will wash off easily with water. As with painting, several thin layers
> are better than one thick layer.


it's certainly cheaper than SMD paste, and it is leadfree so i don't worry  
about the stuff in the water and everywhere in the shop.

I must look what i can find here, and if it's water soluble flux.

ST

This?

Testors - 1601 
Trans. Candy Green 3 Oz. Spray Can  
http://www.testors.com/catalog_item.asp?itemNbr=1404

Robert
:)


-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de Terry Mickelson
Envoyé : août 16 2005 04:01
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] Green Paint ?


Some time ago there was a description of a green paint for use on  
printed circuit boards. This paint is applied after a board is  
drilled and burns off when soldered. The end result is a uniformly  
covered board that's protected against corrosion. Only trouble is: I  
lost the name and source of this paint.
Terry



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How much are you thinning the solder paste before you paint it on? It 
sounds like you're really thinning it down quite a bit.


Regards, Bob


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "derekhawkins" 
<derekhawkins@y...> wrote:
> This is not an issue. Just paint the whole board with a thin layer 
of 
> the stuff. The tiny beads of solder that form where there is no 
copper 
> will wash off easily with water. As with painting, several thin 
layers 
> are better than one thick layer.

> How much are you thinning the solder paste before you paint it on? It 
> sounds like you're really thinning it down quite a bit.

The reason for thinning is not to prevent solder forming where there is 
no copper. You thin to get an even layer of paste without ridges or 
brush marks that will cause some places to have too much solder. Areas 
without copper will be filled with tiny discrete balls of solder that 
wash off quite easily.

A new jar of paste may be so moist that no thinning at all is required. 
Whatever, thinning will usually consist of just adding a few drops of 
water at the top of the paste in the jar or wetting the brush 
occasionally. Sort of like painting with solid water paints.

I don't have many pictures of the process but here is a shot of what to 
expect if too much paste is used....Raised rings around would be holes 
in pads and raised tracks and pads (some may prefer this);

http://www.pbase.com/eldata/image/47810059/original

Caution:
Depending on paste used, it may contain lead and/or an acidic flux.

On Wednesday 17 August 2005 10:43 am, derekhawkins wrote:
> > How much are you thinning the solder paste before you paint it on? It
> > sounds like you're really thinning it down quite a bit.
>
> The reason for thinning is not to prevent solder forming where there is
> no copper. You thin to get an even layer of paste without ridges or
> brush marks that will cause some places to have too much solder. Areas
> without copper will be filled with tiny discrete balls of solder that
> wash off quite easily.
>
> A new jar of paste may be so moist that no thinning at all is required.
> Whatever, thinning will usually consist of just adding a few drops of
> water at the top of the paste in the jar or wetting the brush
> occasionally. Sort of like painting with solid water paints.
>
> I don't have many pictures of the process but here is a shot of what to
> expect if too much paste is used....Raised rings around would be holes
> in pads and raised tracks and pads (some may prefer this);
>
> http://www.pbase.com/eldata/image/47810059/original

Interesting pic,  that's _still_ loading on this dialup connection.  Must be 
pretty big!

> Caution:
> Depending on paste used, it may contain lead and/or an acidic flux.

I was of the impression from earlier posts in this thread that the stuff you 
were talking about was lead-free,  which is something I'd rather avoid if 
possible.  Acidic flux strikes me as something else to avoid,  as well.

And this stuff is available as plumbing supplies?  Seems to me to be a whole 
lot easier to use than the stuff I've seen talked about in the context of 
surface-mount,  where it has a limited lifespan,  requires refrigeration (!), 
etc.

Wonder why I haven't heard of this before?  :-)

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 19:54:00 +0200, Roy J. Tellason  
<rtellason@...> wrote:

>
> I was of the impression from earlier posts in this thread that the stuff  
> you
> were talking about was lead-free,  which is something I'd rather avoid if
> possible.  Acidic flux strikes me as something else to avoid,  as well.


I don't think it is a problem for tinning the board. There seem to be many  
electroless and electroplating "tinning" methods that are tin-only too.  
Remember if you solder with lead solder it will mix and be "almost" normal  
percentage at the joints. Also, you have a rather large "waste" with the  
tin that is washed off where there is no copper, so it is good there is no  
lead in that.
Acid flux will not be a problem for tinning the board, as it can be  
washed, but when trying to use that paste for SMD this is an issue. I'd  
like to look into that 'cause it is vastly cheaper than SMD paste. I don't  
stencil so even a slightly different paste might work all the same...

ST

Roy,

Pic has been reduced and uploaded into Files section.

Robert
:)


-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de Roy J. Tellason
Envoyé : août 17 2005 13:54
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Tinning boards using WS Plumber's solder paste


Interesting pic,  that's _still_ loading on this dialup connection.  Must be

pretty big!






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On Wednesday 17 August 2005 03:06 pm, Robert Hedan wrote:
> Roy,
>
> Pic has been reduced and uploaded into Files section.
>
> Robert
>
> :)

Oh,  that's okay,  I finally did get the whole thing loaded here.  And found 
out about the smaller sizes...   :-)

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
> De la part de Roy J. Tellason
> Envoyé : août 17 2005 13:54
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Tinning boards using WS Plumber's solder paste
>
>
> Interesting pic,  that's _still_ loading on this dialup connection.  Must
> be
>
> pretty big!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

>I was of the impression from earlier posts in this thread that the 
>stuff you were talking about was lead-free

You can get lead-free plumber's solder paste. You can also get it with 
non-acidic flux. Just buy the one you want.

>Seems to me to be a whole lot easier to use than the stuff I've seen 
>talked about in the context of surface-mount, where it has a limited 
>lifespan, requires refrigeration (!)

I've been using the same jar for about two years, just add water if you 
inadvertently leave the jar open and it dries out. Also, you'll be 
surprised how little is required per board.

I've looked at a few pastes, and they all said must be cleaned after  
soldering with damp rag.
So i reckon the flux is a no-go for SMD work. I don't consider it a  
problem for board tinning as it is soluble and you can certainly clean a  
board so it is removed (remember we etched it in pretty bad acid in the  
first place).
I don't thik however it can be washed out 100% under SMD parts.

Maybe one could put a larger amount of the stuff on SMD pads after  
painting, reflow, clean, put a drop of sticky resin flux on each SMD pad  
and position the components, reflow. But other than beeing possibly much  
cheaper there is not real advantage here.

still i'll certainly try tinning boards this way - sounds great.

ST

>I don't think it is a problem for tinning the board.

Paste with an acidic flux isn't a problem for tinning. Zinc Chloride 
can be washed off a board the same way Ferric Chloride can after 
etching. But for SMD work, where joints and components are involved, 
it's probably not the paste to use. However, there are plumber's pastes 
with non-acidic fluxes, at least so they claim. Here is the MSDS for a 
lead bearing plumber's paste with claimed non-acidic flux;

http://www.laco.com/pdfs/MSDS/SolderBrite_50-50_9_25_98_03_10_04.pdf

Here is one for a lead bearing paste with acidic flux;

http://www.palomar.edu/ehs/Facilities/Plum-Loy%2050-50.pdf

You can go to www.kester.com and view the MSDSs for real SMD solder 
pastes.