Homebrew PCBs

Hi all,

WOW, what a difference a little bit of practice makes and a new 
etching tank.  I posted images of my latest attempt in the files 
section - root directory.

NewEtching.jpg

Process outline...

Designed in PCB Wizard
Printed on Pulsar paper using HP laserjet 6p
Transferred with iron, two 15 second pressings @ 360 degrees F
Etched in ferric Chloride, warm, with air bubbles.
Wiped off toner with Acetone

And that is what you see.  Next up, I will try the tinning process 
using solder paste as outlined here about a week or so ago.

I am amazed at how much better these came out compared to my 
previous attempts.

The change in transfer was shorter pressing time (was about 90 
seconds or more) and perhaps a bit less heat, didn't measure temp 
last time.  Also, made sure to re-position iron during pressing so 
as to make sure the steam vent hole areas would be re-pressed with a 
different part of the iron sole.

I used ferric chloride last time, but in a small tray with gentle 
rocking for agitation.  This time, the tank is much larger 1/2 
gallon and am using fish tank bubblers for agitation.

Chris

pretty clean.  Some pinholing and a few trace blooms but very
respectable.  The trace blooms are due to too much pressure, by the
way.  With an iron, it's very very hard to avoid.  

I'm suprised that the pulsar process has pinholes.  Guess it's just
toner transfer with pricey paper.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@y...> wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> WOW, what a difference a little bit of practice makes and a new 
> etching tank.  I posted images of my latest attempt in the files 
> section - root directory.
> 
> NewEtching.jpg
> 
> Process outline...
> 
> Designed in PCB Wizard
> Printed on Pulsar paper using HP laserjet 6p
> Transferred with iron, two 15 second pressings @ 360 degrees F
> Etched in ferric Chloride, warm, with air bubbles.
> Wiped off toner with Acetone
> 
> And that is what you see.  Next up, I will try the tinning process 
> using solder paste as outlined here about a week or so ago.
> 
> I am amazed at how much better these came out compared to my 
> previous attempts.
> 
> The change in transfer was shorter pressing time (was about 90 
> seconds or more) and perhaps a bit less heat, didn't measure temp 
> last time.  Also, made sure to re-position iron during pressing so 
> as to make sure the steam vent hole areas would be re-pressed with a 
> different part of the iron sole.
> 
> I used ferric chloride last time, but in a small tray with gentle 
> rocking for agitation.  This time, the tank is much larger 1/2 
> gallon and am using fish tank bubblers for agitation.
> 
> Chris

I didn't use the pulsar process completely, just the toner transfer 
paper.  Their process uses another iron on transfer product, then 
you scrub the board with the chemicals - didn't like that idea.

The "Bloom" I think you are referring to is from my touch up on the 
toner where I thought I saw some missing spots - my hands are not 
steady enough to just dab the spots so it looks kind of nasty.

The pin-holing would probably be much less if I could figure out how 
to turn up the density of this particlar laser printer 6P.  I don't 
think it is putting down enough toner for a really good job.




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> pretty clean.  Some pinholing and a few trace blooms but very
> respectable.  The trace blooms are due to too much pressure, by the
> way.  With an iron, it's very very hard to avoid.  
> 
> I'm suprised that the pulsar process has pinholes.  Guess it's just
> toner transfer with pricey paper.
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
> <lcdpublishing@y...> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > WOW, what a difference a little bit of practice makes and a new 
> > etching tank.  I posted images of my latest attempt in the files 
> > section - root directory.
> > 
> > NewEtching.jpg
> > 
> > Process outline...
> > 
> > Designed in PCB Wizard
> > Printed on Pulsar paper using HP laserjet 6p
> > Transferred with iron, two 15 second pressings @ 360 degrees F
> > Etched in ferric Chloride, warm, with air bubbles.
> > Wiped off toner with Acetone
> > 
> > And that is what you see.  Next up, I will try the tinning 
process 
> > using solder paste as outlined here about a week or so ago.
> > 
> > I am amazed at how much better these came out compared to my 
> > previous attempts.
> > 
> > The change in transfer was shorter pressing time (was about 90 
> > seconds or more) and perhaps a bit less heat, didn't measure 
temp 
> > last time.  Also, made sure to re-position iron during pressing 
so 
> > as to make sure the steam vent hole areas would be re-pressed 
with a 
> > different part of the iron sole.
> > 
> > I used ferric chloride last time, but in a small tray with 
gentle 

> > rocking for agitation.  This time, the tank is much larger 1/2 
> > gallon and am using fish tank bubblers for agitation.
> > 
> > Chris

Well,

I just realized all this back patting I am giving myself for making 
some really good boards and come to find out I screwed up big time.  I 
mirrored the image for the solder side and I shouldn't have done that, 
now everything is backwards.

I think I may still use them if it can put the components on the trace 
side, that should "re-reverse" everything.

Live and learn right :-(

Welcome to the club!!

Been there done that :(

Joaquim


-----Mensagem original-----
De: lcdpublishing [mailto:lcdpublishing@...] 
Enviada: quinta-feira, 8 de Setembro de 2005 18:51
Para: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Assunto: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Yahoo- Dumb a$$

Well,

I just realized all this back patting I am giving myself for making 
some really good boards and come to find out I screwed up big time.  I 
mirrored the image for the solder side and I shouldn't have done that, 
now everything is backwards.

I think I may still use them if it can put the components on the trace 
side, that should "re-reverse" everything.

Live and learn right :-(








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:-)

When are the meetings for this club? :-)

Chris





--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Joaquim Boavida" 
<jboavida@m...> wrote:
> 
> 
> Welcome to the club!!
> 
> Been there done that :(
> 
> Joaquim
> 
> 
> -----Mensagem original-----
> De: lcdpublishing [mailto:lcdpublishing@y...] 
> Enviada: quinta-feira, 8 de Setembro de 2005 18:51
> Para: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Assunto: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Yahoo- Dumb a$$
> 
> Well,
> 
> I just realized all this back patting I am giving myself for 
making 
> some really good boards and come to find out I screwed up big 
time.  I 
> mirrored the image for the solder side and I shouldn't have done 
that, 
> now everything is backwards.
> 
> I think I may still use them if it can put the components on the 
trace 
> side, that should "re-reverse" everything.
> 
> Live and learn right :-(
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, 
and Photos:

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> 
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/ 
> Yahoo! Groups Links

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@y...> wrote:
> I didn't use the pulsar process completely, just the toner transfer 
> paper.  Their process uses another iron on transfer product, then 
> you scrub the board with the chemicals - didn't like that idea.

Yeah, I think they call the second layer "green" or some such.  

> 
> The "Bloom" I think you are referring to is from my touch up on the 
> toner where I thought I saw some missing spots - my hands are not 
> steady enough to just dab the spots so it looks kind of nasty.
> 

been there, done that...  Thank God the electrons don't care about
looks, though.  Your pressure is pretty good then.

> The pin-holing would probably be much less if I could figure out how 
> to turn up the density of this particlar laser printer 6P.  I don't 
> think it is putting down enough toner for a really good job.
> 

I use a copier to lay down the toner and even when I crank up the
density I still get pinholing.  It's the nature of the toner process.
 If you look at the transfered toner with a microscope, you can see
that it is still just a bunch of plastic particles.   However, with a
really fast etch, I find pinholing to be much reduced.  That's an
argument for hotter etchant.

I have some ideas to try out to further reduce pinholing - one is to
reflow the toner after it has been transfered.  One idea is use hot
air to melt the toner particles so they flow slightly and fill up the
pinholes.  Another one is to spray a light coating of acetone on the
transfered board.  Not enough to cause runs but enough to disolve the
toner and have it flow together.  I'm not sure where to get a sprayer
with acetone resistant parts, though.

Phil

That club is pretty big and meets EVERY day...

It is very easy to fall into that trap.  One way to make sure you get
it right is to put text on copper layers that tells you which way it
should go.  I used to put "stop" on the top layer and know that, if I
can read it on the transfer art, it's wrong.  "Bot" on the bottom
reads correctly.  If I can read it forward on the transfer art, its
wrong.  If my cad package allowed me to I'd put "stop" reversed on the
bottom layer.

if you try to use the other side, keep in mind that you don't have
plated through holes and will need to solder on the side where a trace
comes into a pad.  you can do it for most parts but sockets, relays,
many connectors and radial electrolyics are impossible.  You can even
pry up the plastic pads on pin headers and solder the top side.

By the way, watch out for relays when you make library parts.  All the
relay datasheets seem to have the pinouts shown from the bottom side.
 I had to chuck a board because of that - stupid me for not dry
testing it first.

Phil

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@y...> wrote:

> Well,
> 
> I just realized all this back patting I am giving myself for making 
> some really good boards and come to find out I screwed up big time.  I 
> mirrored the image for the solder side and I shouldn't have done that, 
> now everything is backwards.
> 
> I think I may still use them if it can put the components on the trace 
> side, that should "re-reverse" everything.
> 
> Live and learn right :-(

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
<snip>
> 
> Another one is to spray a light coating of acetone on the
> transfered board.  Not enough to cause runs but enough to disolve
the
> toner and have it flow together.  I'm not sure where to get a
sprayer
> with acetone resistant parts, though.
> 

There's a commercial product for doing this. It's called "Laser
Buddy".

http://laserbuddy.com/

Regards, Bob

I do have some sockets going on this board, but if I recall 
correctly, I can put a shim of wood under the socket which lifts it 
up enough to solder it pretty easily (as you can tell from that 
comment, I have been down this path befor).  I still have those 
shims from the last time so I guess I knew I would do it again :-)

You might be onto something with heating the toner, after transfer, 
with a hot air gun.  I suspect it will flow out and turn shiny.  I 
too will try that on my next job.

See you at the meeting!

Chris




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> That club is pretty big and meets EVERY day...
> 
> It is very easy to fall into that trap.  One way to make sure you 
get
> it right is to put text on copper layers that tells you which way 
it
> should go.  I used to put "stop" on the top layer and know that, 
if I
> can read it on the transfer art, it's wrong.  "Bot" on the bottom
> reads correctly.  If I can read it forward on the transfer art, its
> wrong.  If my cad package allowed me to I'd put "stop" reversed on 
the
> bottom layer.
> 
> if you try to use the other side, keep in mind that you don't have
> plated through holes and will need to solder on the side where a 
trace
> comes into a pad.  you can do it for most parts but sockets, 
relays,
> many connectors and radial electrolyics are impossible.  You can 
even
> pry up the plastic pads on pin headers and solder the top side.
> 
> By the way, watch out for relays when you make library parts.  All 
the
> relay datasheets seem to have the pinouts shown from the bottom 
side.
>  I had to chuck a board because of that - stupid me for not dry
> testing it first.
> 
> Phil
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
> <lcdpublishing@y...> wrote:
> > Well,
> > 
> > I just realized all this back patting I am giving myself for 
making 
> > some really good boards and come to find out I screwed up big 
time.  I 
> > mirrored the image for the solder side and I shouldn't have done 
that, 
> > now everything is backwards.
> > 
> > I think I may still use them if it can put the components on the 
trace 

> > side, that should "re-reverse" everything.
> > 
> > Live and learn right :-(

Well,

I guess I won't have to worry about soldering the components on the 
trace side of the board. I just spent about 20 minutes drilling the 
holes on both circuit boards.  I then went over to fit up some parts 
and they hole spacing is off!

To be exact, the whole circuit printout was reduced by 5%, due to a 
bug in the software I suspect.  I upgraded right after printing out 
the transfers I used.  Arghhhhhhhhh !

Now I can pretty much bet on the next time around the transfers or 
etching or tinning won't come out as nice as these two boards.  
Arghhhh, scream!!!!!!!!!!

Is there a club for this sort of problems!

Chris

In a message dated 9/8/2005 2:54:05 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
lcdpublishing@... writes:

I can  put a shim of wood under the socket which lifts it 
up enough to solder it  pretty easily (as you can tell from that 
comment, I have been down this  path befor).  


In the end, I BET it will be LESS hassle to simply make  all-NEW boards, and 
hang the bad ones on the wall with a (tiny) note:   "IFU"


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

LOL!  IFU, Wait till you read the next message I posted 
about "Shrinkage" when printing out those circuits.

I can also add a TFU to the note!

Chris




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, JanRwl@A... wrote:
>  
> In a message dated 9/8/2005 2:54:05 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
> lcdpublishing@y... writes:
> 
> I can  put a shim of wood under the socket which lifts it 
> up enough to solder it  pretty easily (as you can tell from that 
> comment, I have been down this  path befor).  
> 
> 
> In the end, I BET it will be LESS hassle to simply make  all-NEW 
boards, and 

> hang the bad ones on the wall with a (tiny) note:   "IFU"
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 9/8/2005 4:39:04 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
lcdpublishing@... writes:

Wait  till you read the next message 


Yes, I did.  
 
All this is "good training," per the cadre at Fort Polk in  1966.  Did you 
use a laser-printer?  I have heard (well, READ!) that  some of those printers 
become "creative" when asked to print a given size  image.  My INK-JET (not any 
good for toner images, of course) does at  least 5% smaller (or was it 
larger?) than a specified  size.  But I am an OLD Flatulent with about $1000 worth of 
Bishop Graphics  "stick-ons" still in a drawer.  They are most long-past 
their "good  until..." dates, but most still work fine, anyway.  One uses an 
Xacto-knife  to pick-off the pads and IC patterns, sticks 'em to grid-paper VERY 
carefully,  then "wires up" with precision black tape (I have only several 0.05" 
to  0.25" widths, though they are (were?) made by DOZENS of widths, and at 
least  three colors, both "mylar" and "crepe black."  This was what we OLD GUYS  
did before puters could "draw" a PCB for us "on-screen".  Just getting it  
photo-printable is the problem.  But the 2X "art" I did could be  photographed 
by the "PC House" to make a 1X negative, and the size was  PERFECT.  
 
I realize most of their customers now just bring in a 3½  floppy taped to a 
purchase-order, and four-layer with gold and tin-plating is  routine.  But it's 
been some years since I did a 100-count order of a PTH  double-side, so I 
don't even have a CLUE what-all is done, nowadays!  As  was bragged in that old 
spiritual, "Free at last, free at last!  Thank  Gawd-Amighty, we free at  
last!"                Jan  Rowland


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hey, thanks for the tip, if hot air doesn't do it (and it sounds like
it might), I'll get a can of that.

What I got a kick out of was the "high resolution in a can" on the
can.  Now really....

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Bob_xyz" <bob_barr@h...> wrote:

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> <snip>
> > 
> > Another one is to spray a light coating of acetone on the
> > transfered board.  Not enough to cause runs but enough to disolve
> the
> > toner and have it flow together.  I'm not sure where to get a
> sprayer
> > with acetone resistant parts, though.
> > 
> 
> There's a commercial product for doing this. It's called "Laser
> Buddy".
> 
> http://laserbuddy.com/
> 
> Regards, Bob

I'll wager that you are the first person to ever do that, except for me of course.
 


lcdpublishing <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
Well,

I just realized all this back patting I am giving myself for making 
some really good boards and come to find out I screwed up big time.  I 
mirrored the image for the solder side and I shouldn't have done that, 
now everything is backwards.

I think I may still use them if it can put the components on the trace 
side, that should "re-reverse" everything.

Live and learn right :-(







Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs

If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/ 



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On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 21:18:33 +0200, lcdpublishing  
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

>
> When are the meetings for this club?
> Chris


Right here, every day. Don't worry this is apparently a normal feature,  
not a mistake on your part.

ST

On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 21:22:42 +0200, Phil <phil1960us@...> wrote:

>
> I use a copier to lay down the toner and even when I crank up the
> density I still get pinholing.  It's the nature of the toner process.
>  If you look at the transfered toner with a microscope, you can see
> that it is still just a bunch of plastic particles.   However, with a
> really fast etch, I find pinholing to be much reduced.  That's an
> argument for hotter etchant.


With inkjet paper and a fuser i don't have pinholing, but with silicone  
paper i get it again, which is kind of a problem and why i don't use it  
anymore at the moment. Must try hot air reflow of the toner one day....

ST

On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 21:51:19 +0200, Bob_xyz <bob_barr@...> wrote:

> I'm not sure where to get a
> sprayer
> with acetone resistant parts, though.


Any PP or PE sprayer will do. will try!

ST

I did look over my traces after removing the toner, no pin holes 
that I could see with a loupe.  To make sure i was getting a good 
look, I went outside where the sun is shining and looked again, very 
good, solid, copper traces.  I don't know for sure if it is because 
of the transfer paper I used or the heat gun - flash over of the 
toner after transfer.  Either way, three boards, no pin holes which 
for this cat is pretty darn exciting!

Chris








--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
> On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 21:22:42 +0200, Phil <phil1960us@y...> wrote:
> 
> >
> > I use a copier to lay down the toner and even when I crank up the
> > density I still get pinholing.  It's the nature of the toner 
process.
> >  If you look at the transfered toner with a microscope, you can 
see
> > that it is still just a bunch of plastic particles.   However, 
with a
> > really fast etch, I find pinholing to be much reduced.  That's an
> > argument for hotter etchant.
> 
> 
> With inkjet paper and a fuser i don't have pinholing, but with 
silicone  
> paper i get it again, which is kind of a problem and why i don't 
use it  
> anymore at the moment. Must try hot air reflow of the toner one 
day....
> 
> ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@y...> wrote:
> I did look over my traces after removing the toner, no pin holes 
> that I could see with a loupe.  To make sure i was getting a good 
> look, I went outside where the sun is shining and looked again, very 
> good, solid, copper traces.  I don't know for sure if it is because 
> of the transfer paper I used or the heat gun - flash over of the 
> toner after transfer.  Either way, three boards, no pin holes which 
> for this cat is pretty darn exciting!
> 
> Chris
> 


That's good to know.  The biggest issue for me with pinholing is on
large areas of resist like ground planes.  I like to minimize the
amount of copper to remove - every area possible on my boards is
ground.  I'm about to crank up a couple of boards so I will try it out.