Homebrew PCBs

Looking for the cheapest, quickest and most environmentally friendly 
route to good PCB results (who isn't?), my research within this forum
and other web resources convinced me to use pre-cut, surplus PCB
material, glossy magazine covers as the toner transfer material and a
homebrew, replenishable HCL/H2O2 etchant.  Now, all I had to do was
get good, reproducible results using these materials.  In the past, I
have always experienced inconsistent results with toner transfer (TT)
PCBs.  In an effort to change that, I did some experimenting to
determine what I was doing wrong.  I don't doubt that this line of
investigation has been followed and documented before.  I had fun
doing it, anyway.

First, I needed to determine exactly why I wasn't getting good results
with my previous TT attempts using an iron.  I felt that understanding
that problem might lead me to some fundamental information that might
be useful elsewhere.  My past problems always involved imperfect
adhesion of the toner to the PCB.  So, suspecting a toner fusion
problem possibly related to low temperature, my first questions were,
"At what temperature does toner melt and how hot are my irons?"

I found a few web references to toner fusing/melting at 200C (392F). 
Since I own a Raytek MiniTemp for use in another hobby (RC cars and
planes), I could easily measure the surface temperature of my irons to
determine if they actually reached that temperature.  I was intrigued
by the results, all taken with the irons set at their highest
temperature settings:

1. Small travel iron (the one I'd used for all of my previous TT
efforts): 350F at its hottest spot (very small area), 210F over most
of its surface

2. Large household iron: 205F at its hottest spot (very small area),
175F over most of its surface

It appears that toner must only be tacky/plastic and not fully melted
under an iron at these temperatures.  Of course, when using a process
like ironing which involves rubbing and potentially high levels of
localized pressure, a fully melted toner might smear or spread beyond
its intended areas of adhesion.  However, toner that was only tacky
would explain the great importance of iron techniques involving
pressure and movement and the resulting variability in results if
those techniques are not adhered to consistently.

So, I concluded that I needed to somehow bring the PCB and transfer
medium close to or at the toner fusion temperature and apply uniform
pressure across the width of the board to reliably transfer the toner
while avoiding smearing or spreading.

The obvious solution would be to use a laminator, but to buy one that
was already known to work reliably with PCB toner transfers would
possibly violate my goal of a "cheap" route to reliable PCB
production.   I found the forum database of results using various
laminators for TT and noticed the Royal PL2000 (~$90 on eBay, $149
elsewhere and, apparently, discontinued by Royal).  I wondered how
well the newer Royal model PL2100 would do, since it was for sale at
Royal.com for $29.95.  So, I took a chance and ordered it, even though
Royal's claim of "Easy to use - no temperature controls to adjust"
made me suspicious. The forum database description of the Royal PL2000
mentioned a temperature control set to maximum.  Since the PL2100
would most likely be permanently preset to a median temperature, would
it be one of those inexpensive laminators that don't supply enough
heat to adhere the toner to the PCB?
  
I received the laminator before I received the .021" double-sided PCB
I planned to put through it.  So, I tested the laminator with one of
its included laminating bags to make certain that it wasn't DOA...
before I disassembled it.  Upon disassembly, I found a synchronous
motor to turn the two rollers, a half-wave rectifier circuit to supply
the two 60V, 110W, 9.75" wide flexible ceramic heating elements used
to heat the surface of one of the rollers and a Daewood (not Daewoo �
it's Chinese, not Korean) KSD602 auto-reset thermostat (with an
unknown temperature trip point).

Using my Raytek MiniTemp, I measured the temperature of the heating
elements at 390F (there's that temperature again - perhaps they're
using toner fusers intended for laser printers?) and the adjacent
metal structures at 150F.  Because of the way the heating elements are
arranged, the surface of one of the rollers is exposed to 390F radiant
heat over about 180 degrees of its rotation.  This made the odds of
actual toner melting and fusion look promising.  Just in case, I used
Teflon insulated wire to solder a miniature, momentary toggle switch
rated at 5A @ 250V across the thermostat (which was only activating
the heating elements on an approximately 30% duty cycle) and drilled a
hole for it in an open area of the case.  That way, when feeding the
board through the laminator, I'd make sure the heaters were on shortly
before and during the pass of the PCB through the laminator.  I DO NOT
recommend that anyone else do this since you could potentially damage
your laminator, your house and yourself if you aren't careful.  At
that point, the least of your problems will be that you also voided
your laminators warrantee.  Besides, I came up with a better backup
method that requires no modifications to the laminator and which is
probably applicable to anyone with any model of "wimpy" laminator. 

After receiving the .021" PCB material, I tested the Royal PL2100
laminator using Tom Gootee's proto26.bmp artwork as a test pattern
printed on glossy magazine-cover paper.  I made twelve passes of the
board through the laminator on the first test to give it every chance
at success.  I DID NOT use my thermostat bypass switch. 
Unfortunately, while the toner pattern separated easily from most but
not all areas of the paper after a soaking in warm water, about 50% of
the toner was not well adhered to the PCB and could be removed with
little effort.

SO, it was time to implement my "wimpy laminator" backup plan.  The
laminator was already in the kitchen on a counter next to the oven in
anticipation of this and the oven was already pre-heated to 390F. 
Since I knew from my previous measurement of the laminator heating
elements that the rollers of the laminator could be safely exposed to
390F temperatures, I knew that running a PCB _already_ at that
temperature thru the laminator would not harm its rollers in any way.
 Here's what I did at that point, step-by-step.  This sounds complex,
but it was really very easy and quick and could easily be scaled up to
process a large number of PCBs at the same time.  It's also a probable
fix for others with low-heat laminators:

1.  I ran the board with its glossy-paper/artwork through the
laminator twice to fully flatten the paper and tack it to the board
(perhaps only one pass would have been enough � I'll determine that
later).

2.  I placed the board in the 390F pre-heated oven and checked it with
the Raytek MiniTemp to determine when it reached the oven's ambient
temperature � it took less than two minutes to do so � BTW, to make it
easy to pick up, I put the board on a broiling pan so that one side of
the board stuck out beyond the pan � also, you don't need a Raytek
MiniTemp to do this right; just put your board in the oven for a few
minutes to reach the oven's ambient temperature.
 
3.  With a wool glove on one hand, I removed the board from the oven
and ran it through the laminator twice (once again, maybe once would
have been enough � I'll determine that later).

4.  I put the PCB on the counter and let it cool to "warm but
completely comfortably to handle with a bare hand" (forgot to measure
that with the Raytek MiniTemp) � that only took a minute or so.

5.  I put the board in a pan of warm water and let it soak.

6.  Only a few minutes later, one corner of the paper was already
floating free � I pulled the paper back diagonally until I met the
slightest resistance, waited for about 10 seconds, pulled again and
repeated the process � in less than two minutes, the paper was off and
ALL of the toner was bonded to the PCB.

7.  Just for good measure, I rinsed off the board under a stream of
warm tap water and then put it back into the oven for a few minutes to
let it heat to 390F again.  That may have been completely unnecessary.
 I will determine that later with additional tests.

8.  I let the PCB cool to room temperature, immersed it in warm water
and used a Quickie plastic mesh dish scrubber (from Wal-Mart � see
photos at link below to see what it looks like) to remove the tiny
amount of lingering paper residue.  This took less than a minute to
complete with very gentle scrubbing (not that the toner couldn't have
withstood even extremely hard scrubbing, it's just that only very
light scrubbing was needed).

What I ended up with was the best toner transfer I've ever managed, by
far.  It's absolutely perfect.

Here are a few photos including a close-up of the toner pattern on the
board (the board's orange color in a few of the photos is an artifact
of the lighting used):

http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/photos/browse/843d

If anyone has artwork (max 6"x6", the size of my test board) that
would provide a more challenging test for this method, please email it
to me, post it in the photos section or point me to it. 

Thanks,
Bill

Well, you could always use a better laminator or a fuser to reduce the  
effort.

If it doesn't adhere there are only two possible reasons:

A) low temperature or no pressure

B) contamination or insufficient board preparation.

If it seems to adhere well, but toner comes off when gently removing the  
paper you have a paper problem.
Sometimes it might be difficult to distinguish the two.

ST

On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 18:33:46 +0100, wbblair3 <wbblair3@...> wrote:

> Looking for the cheapest, quickest and most environmentally friendly
>
> route to good PCB results (who isn't?), my research within this forum
>
> and other web resources convinced me to use pre-cut, surplus PCB
>
> material, glossy magazine covers as the toner transfer material and a
>
> homebrew, replenishable HCL/H2O2 etchant.  Now, all I had to do was
>
> get good, reproducible results using these materials.  In the past, I
>
> have always experienced inconsistent results with toner transfer (TT)
>
> PCBs.  In an effort to change that, I did some experimenting to
>
> determine what I was doing wrong.  I don't doubt that this line of
>
> investigation has been followed and documented before.  I had fun
>
> doing it, anyway.
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "wbblair3" <wbblair3@...> wrote:
>
> Looking for the cheapest, quickest and most environmentally friendly 
> route to good PCB results (who isn't?), my research within this forum
> and other web resources convinced me to use pre-cut, surplus PCB
> material, glossy magazine covers as the toner transfer material and a
> homebrew, replenishable HCL/H2O2 etchant.  Now, all I had to do was
> get good, reproducible results using these materials.  In the past, I
> have always experienced inconsistent results with toner transfer (TT)
> PCBs.  In an effort to change that, I did some experimenting to
> determine what I was doing wrong.  I don't doubt that this line of
> investigation has been followed and documented before.  I had fun
> doing it, anyway.

[deleted]

Why not use the UV exposure technique? It's much simpler and quicker 
and the results are excellent.

Leon

A perfect board preparation is crucial for good results. I have same 
problem in the past and I blame my iron too. Now I spent at least 10 
minutes to board preparation (Scoch&Brite + Ajax + hard work).
My iron seting is in 200C range. This temperature is ok for my tipe of 
tonner.



Adrian

Hi Adrian,

I think grease/oil on the board is the worst problem.  I just use 
scotch brite and scrub in both directions which creates a cross hatch 
pattern on the copper for the toner to adhere to.  I clean the board 
with 98+% IPA and let the board air dry or use compressed air.

The other key is to make sure all toner is melted.  I think that's 
easier to do with the transparency method.

Regards,
Dennis

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "adicont2" <adicont2@...> wrote:
>
> A perfect board preparation is crucial for good results. I have same 
> problem in the past and I blame my iron too. Now I spent at least 10 
> minutes to board preparation (Scoch&Brite + Ajax + hard work).
> My iron seting is in 200C range. This temperature is ok for my tipe 
of 

> tonner.
> 
> 
> 
> Adrian
>

> Why not use the UV exposure technique? It's much simpler and 
quicker 
> and the results are excellent.
> 

Ben there done that, BACK IN THE MID-70s. My gosh, am I that old.

Anyway, from what I remember that was a pain.

1) Make the PCB artwork.
2) Print it on paper.
3) Expose the negative.
4) Develop the negative.
5) Place the negative on a photo sensetive PCB, glass on top of that 
with a weight to make the negative in direct contact with the PCB. 
This has to be done under darkroom lighting.
6) Expose the PCB to the UV.
7) Develope the PCB.
8) Etch the PCB.
9) Cut to size and drill.

I realize some of these steps are done in the Toner-Transfer method. 
The TT method must be reconized as a homebrew method.

You are doing this the Twenty-first century way and I for sure don't 
know what might be considered the best homebrew way of doing. I would 
like to get back into making my own prototype PCBs. I'm sure you are 
using one of the better methods. How is the best for me to start 
making PCBs?

Thanks,
Mike

On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 19:34:36 +0100, leon_heller  
<leon.heller@...> wrote:

>
> Why not use the UV exposure technique? It's much simpler and quicker
>
> and the results are excellent.
>
>
> Leon


If you did't live so far away i'd challenge you to a race ;-)

As it is, i'll just accept your views as a different opinion..

Well, we could have a 3rd party provide a layout image to us both at the  
same time and then go for whover is faster providing a photo of the pcb  
just put into the etchant, if you are up to the challenge ;-)

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

> Well, you could always use a better laminator or a fuser to reduce
> the effort.

As I stated further down in my, admittedly, long post, a _cheap_
thermal lamintor was one of my prerequisites.  When I found that the
cheap laminator I purchased didn't work well for the TT process, I
found an easy workaround that produced excellent results and which
would be applicable to anyone else who wanted to use a very cheap
thermal laminator that would otherwise be useless for PCB production.
I've seen complaints here of cheap thermal laminators not producing
good bonds of toner with the PCB.  Using the easy technique I
described, those stuck with lousy laminators can now get excellent
results easily and quickly. 
 
> If it doesn't adhere there are only two possible reasons:
> 
> A) low temperature or no pressure
> 
> B) contamination or insufficient board preparation.

My boards were always cleaned meticulously using abrasive cleansing
powder, a green Scotchbrite pad and 91% isopropyl for the final step.
 As stated in my post, the problem was that both of my irons didn't
reach the 200C (392F) toner fusion temperature anywhere on their
surfaces.  Given that they were two different irons of different
brands, I suspect that this might be a common problem.

Bill

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "leon_heller" <leon.heller@...>
wrote:

> Why not use the UV exposure technique? It's much simpler and quicker 
> and the results are excellent.

I've used the UV process for several projects back in college (up to
8" x 12" in size) and agree that it is an excellent method.  It
doesn't appear to fit my "cheap" requirement. However, if you can give
me an idea of the cost per PCB square inch (or cm) including the costs
of sensitizer and equipment (or point me to a good source of info on
that), you might convince me otherwise.

Bill

>  As stated in my post, the problem was that both of my irons didn't
> reach the 200C (392F) toner fusion temperature anywhere on their
> surfaces.  Given that they were two different irons of different
> brands, I suspect that this might be a common problem.

What if you bypassed the thermostat in the irons?

Mike

Hi Leon,

What resist (positive or negative) are you using and where do you buy 
it?  How do you apply it to boards?  When I was in junior college, we 
used to spin it on.  How long will presensitized boards keep?  How do 
you dispose of your expended chemicals?  I'm on a septic system and am 
very careful about what I put down the drain because I or my neighbors 
will eventually end up drinking some of it...

I'd like to try doing boards with a positive resist.  It would 
probably give more predictable results, once you got exposure and 
developing times down, with less pitting.

Regards,
Dennis

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "leon_heller" <leon.heller@...> 
wrote:

> Why not use the UV exposure technique? It's much simpler and quicker 
> and the results are excellent.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 19:34:36 +0100, leon_heller  
> <leon.heller@...> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Why not use the UV exposure technique? It's much simpler and 
quicker
> >
> > and the results are excellent.
> >
> >
> > Leon
> 
> 
> If you did't live so far away i'd challenge you to a race ;-)
> 
> As it is, i'll just accept your views as a different opinion..
> 
> Well, we could have a 3rd party provide a layout image to us both 
at the  
> same time and then go for whover is faster providing a photo of the 
pcb  
> just put into the etchant, if you are up to the challenge ;-)

I terms of actual hands-on time,I'm quite sure UV exposure is 
quicker. I just have to put the transparency and PCB together into 
the exposure unit, and switch it on. Although it takes 13 minutes,I 
can do something else whilst it is 'cooking'. I then take the PCB out 
and develop it in NaOH - about a minute_ before rinsing and etching. 
Total time actually working on the PCB is about two minutes.

Leon

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "adicont2" <adicont2@...> wrote:

> A perfect board preparation is crucial for good results. I have same 
> problem in the past and I blame my iron too. Now I spent at least 10 
> minutes to board preparation (Scoch&Brite + Ajax + hard work).
> My iron seting is in 200C range. This temperature is ok for my tipe of 
> tonner.

I spent maybe three minutes tops preparing my board for this test
using the same Scotchbrite/Ajax technique.  That included removing
toner adhered to the board from my previous, unsuccessful attempt.

In short, by tacking the glossy magazine-cover paper artwork to the
board using a cheap ($30) thermal laminator, bringing the board (in
just a few minutes) to the toner fusion temperature of 200C in an oven
and running it through the laminator again, I get an absolutely
perfect transfer with a laminator that otherwise wouldn't be suitable
for toner transfer.  All of this took a matter of minutes and there
were no additional variables related to iron technique or iron
temperature (which would be an unknown for most people since they
don't have a thermal sensor gun to measure it with).

And keep in mind that the reason I purchased this particular $30
laminator in the first place was to discover whether it worked as well
as the previous $99 - $149 Royal model PL2000 which was listed as
being very good for toner transfer. When it didn't, I found a
workaround that should be applicable to all individuals who are stuck
with a thermal laminator that doesn't work well in a toner transfer role.

Bill

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "wbblair3" <wbblair3@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 7:26 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner transfer experiments and a fix for cheap, 
low-temp laminators


> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "leon_heller" <leon.heller@...>
> wrote:
>
>> Why not use the UV exposure technique? It's much simpler and quicker
>> and the results are excellent.
>
> I've used the UV process for several projects back in college (up to
> 8" x 12" in size) and agree that it is an excellent method.  It
> doesn't appear to fit my "cheap" requirement. However, if you can give
> me an idea of the cost per PCB square inch (or cm) including the costs
> of sensitizer and equipment (or point me to a good source of info on
> that), you might convince me otherwise.

The sensitised FPC-16 material I use costs 1.50 GBP for a 4" x 6" piece. My 
UV exposure unit cost me about 20 GBP to make from a couple of fluorescent 
fittings, UV tubes, MDF and wood. The JetStar film costs 5.10 GBP for 10 A4 
sheets.

Leon 

---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
currently using to read this email. ]

> Why not use the UV exposure technique? It's much simpler and 
quicker 
> and the results are excellent.
> 

 Leon

I made several UV PCBs back in the 70s. Gosh has it been that long 
ago! As I recall it took
1) Develop the artwork
2) Print out the artwork
3) Expose the negative (Dark room setup)
4) Develop the negative (Dark room setup)
5) Expose the PCB (Negative pressed to PCB with pane of glass and 
weights using dark room setup)
6) Develop the PCB (Dark room setup)
7) Etch the PCB
8) Cut to size and drill the PCB

I realize now there are positive sensetive boards and steps 4 and 5 
are not used.

What steps and equipment do you use to make PCBs?

Mike

wbblair3 wrote:

> And keep in mind that the reason I purchased this particular $30
> laminator in the first place was to discover whether it worked as well
> as the previous $99 - $149 Royal model PL2000 which was listed as
> being very good for toner transfer. When it didn't, I found a
> workaround that should be applicable to all individuals who are stuck
> with a thermal laminator that doesn't work well in a toner transfer role.

Did you try your switch to increase the temperature of the laminator?  
Any thoughts on how practical it is to get the temp on the laminator up 
to where the oven would not be necessary?

Thanks for taking the time to report your findings and detail the 
methods you used!

Dave K

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "dl5012" <dl5012@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 7:41 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner transfer experiments and a fix for cheap, 
low-temp laminators


> Hi Leon,
>
> What resist (positive or negative) are you using and where do you buy
> it?  How do you apply it to boards?  When I was in junior college, we
> used to spin it on.  How long will presensitized boards keep?  How do
> you dispose of your expended chemicals?  I'm on a septic system and am
> very careful about what I put down the drain because I or my neighbors
> will eventually end up drinking some of it...

I use pre-coated FPC-16 board (positive-working resist) from Mega 
Electronics:

http://www.megauk.com/

The board is best used within six months, I've found.

I simply pour the NaOH and any exhausted etchant down the drain. The small 
amounts I use don't matter.


>
> I'd like to try doing boards with a positive resist.  It would
> probably give more predictable results, once you got exposure and
> developing times down, with less pitting.

My UV exposure takes 13 minutes, but I can get on with something else during 
that time. Etching is in hot FeCl3 with continuous manual agitation; it 
takes about 5 minutes with fresh etchant. I use a large plastic container 
half-filled with hot water, with a smaller container in it holding the 
etchant and PCB. The etchant lasts for several weeks if I occasionally add a 
little HCl. I dispose of it when the etching time gets to about 15 minutes.

Leon 

---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
currently using to read this email. ]

I have also recently been playing with this technique. I can report
great results with 3 papers - 

Pulsar TTS paper
Staples Picture Paper
Label backing paper  

I use a laminator with adjustable temperature set on high, bought on
EBay. It is essential to me for this sort of work. I can highly
recommend both the IBICO PL-330 (4 roller, a real workhorse) and EL-12
II(two roller, but also very good). Both have spring loaded rollers.
variable temp, and work with .062 boards no problem. These cost $43.
and $26. respectively. My wife uses the smaller one to laminate
posters at work.    
 
I have also tried the Pulsar TRF Green film, and recommend it highly.
It is used after the toner is layed down on the copper to seal the
toner, and does a great job to prevent pitting of large ground planes.
It alone is cheap at 6.95 for 15 feet. I bought it from Digi-key. It
works with both the Pulsar paper, and the label backing paper. 
It can also be used to seal the top component layout, if you do that
too. They sell a white color specially for that, but I just use green.
 
The Pulsar green film does NOT work however, with the Staples Picture
paper, or any other clay based paper. It simply does not stick to
anything but raw toner, which is what you get when the label paper or
Pulsar paper is removed. I know the Pulsar paper is expensive ($15./10
sheets), but I cut each sheet into 6 pieces, and attach to a carrier
paper with leftover laserjet compatible labels. So it goes a long way.
The best part is it removes without any headaches in about 10 seconds,
no additional scrubbing. I place it in a tray of cold water and it
lifts right off. The label paper is similar, but occasionally has
problems, so I tend to use it for the top component layouts to
economize, where it is less critical. 

This whole process works great for me. I found the best price for new
boards is circuit specialists, and buy the 1 oz. .062 8x10" boards for
$7.50each. 

Bob

 
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> Well, you could always use a better laminator or a fuser to reduce the  
> effort.
> 
> If it doesn't adhere there are only two possible reasons:
> 
> A) low temperature or no pressure
> 
> B) contamination or insufficient board preparation.
> 
> If it seems to adhere well, but toner comes off when gently removing
the  

> paper you have a paper problem.
> Sometimes it might be difficult to distinguish the two.
> 
> ST

How much does a small UV setup cost?  For say, 6" PCB's (max)?

-Dave

leon_heller wrote:
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
> <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>   
>> On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 19:34:36 +0100, leon_heller  
>> <leon.heller@...> wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> Why not use the UV exposure technique? It's much simpler and 
>>>       
> quicker
>   
>>> and the results are excellent.
>>>
>>>
>>> Leon
>>>       
>> If you did't live so far away i'd challenge you to a race ;-)
>>
>> As it is, i'll just accept your views as a different opinion..
>>
>> Well, we could have a 3rd party provide a layout image to us both 
>>     
> at the  
>   
>> same time and then go for whover is faster providing a photo of the 
>>     
> pcb  
>   
>> just put into the etchant, if you are up to the challenge ;-)
>>     
>
> I terms of actual hands-on time,I'm quite sure UV exposure is 
> quicker. I just have to put the transparency and PCB together into 
> the exposure unit, and switch it on. Although it takes 13 minutes,I 
> can do something else whilst it is 'cooking'. I then take the PCB out 
> and develop it in NaOH - about a minute_ before rinsing and etching. 
> Total time actually working on the PCB is about two minutes.
>
> Leon
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/ 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>   

-- 

David Frascone

                  Catholic (n.) A cat with a drinking problem.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Leon Heller" <leon.heller@...>
wrote:

> The sensitised FPC-16 material I use costs 1.50 GBP for a 4" x 6" 
> piece. 

I found a UK web page here:

http://tinyurl.com/8cwf4

that lists your 1.50 GBP (2.62 USD) FPC-16 economy board and others
including the 1.95 GBP (3.35 USD), 1/16", 1 oz, single-sided 4x6 board
using A4 material for which I could more easily find a US source at
Digikey.com.  The two choices using that characteristics filter at
Digikey.com cost $7.93 and $9.04 respectively.  My source for .021"
thick, double-sided copper clad offers a 4x6 board (not sensitized)
for 0.95 USD.

Anyone here know of a similarly inexpensive US source for something
similar to the sensitized PCB material Leon is using in the UK?

> My UV exposure unit cost me about 20 GBP to make from a couple 
> of fluorescent fittings, UV tubes, MDF and wood.

Cool. Do you have ready access to an URL where plans for such a thing
can be found? (I haven't looked in the forum archives here for one, yet). 

> The JetStar film costs 5.10 GBP for 10 A4 sheets.

The same UK source I linked to above has that, too.  The 5.10 GBP is
8.90 USD and 12.02 AUD.  An Australian source charges 16 AUD, so you
have a very cheap source of that material in the UK.

Once again, anyone here know of a suitable substitute of similar cost
here in the US?

Thanks!
Bill

Hi Bob,

That works out to almost 10 cents per sq. inch.  Try abcfab on 
eBay.  You can get single sided single sided 1 oz. 0.062" thick CEM-
1 for about 2 cents per sq. inch (including shipping - he uses flat 
rate priority boxes in the US so shipping doesn't dominate cost).

CEM-1 isn't very good for punching or high frequency circuits.  I 
prefer FR4, but can't beat the price.

I haven't seen much single sided FR4 from him, but he does have 
double sided.  He would only be a problem if you needed the full 
8x10 for a single board; the largest I've seen from him is 6x13.

If you buy from, tell him I referred you.  It might get me some free 
or discounted boards...  I'll check with him to see if it's okay to 
give out his email address so he can save eBay fees...  Contact me 
off-board for details (I don't want him to get spammed because *I* 
posted his address for a bot to pick off).

Anyone care to share their secret contacts to PCB manufacturers who 
will still give/sell scraps to hobbyists?

Regards,
Dennis

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "newaag" <newaag@...> wrote:

> I found the best price for new boards is circuit specialists, and
> buy the 1 oz. .062 8x10" boards for $7.50each.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "wbblair3" <wbblair3@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 8:33 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner transfer experiments and a fix for cheap, 
low-temp laminators


> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Leon Heller" <leon.heller@...>
> wrote:
>
>> The sensitised FPC-16 material I use costs 1.50 GBP for a 4" x 6"
>> piece.
>
> I found a UK web page here:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/8cwf4
>
> that lists your 1.50 GBP (2.62 USD) FPC-16 economy board and others
> including the 1.95 GBP (3.35 USD), 1/16", 1 oz, single-sided 4x6 board
> using A4 material for which I could more easily find a US source at
> Digikey.com.  The two choices using that characteristics filter at
> Digikey.com cost $7.93 and $9.04 respectively.  My source for .021"
> thick, double-sided copper clad offers a 4x6 board (not sensitized)
> for 0.95 USD.
>
> Anyone here know of a similarly inexpensive US source for something
> similar to the sensitized PCB material Leon is using in the UK?
>
>> My UV exposure unit cost me about 20 GBP to make from a couple
>> of fluorescent fittings, UV tubes, MDF and wood.
>
> Cool. Do you have ready access to an URL where plans for such a thing
> can be found? (I haven't looked in the forum archives here for one, yet).
>
>> The JetStar film costs 5.10 GBP for 10 A4 sheets.
>
> The same UK source I linked to above has that, too.  The 5.10 GBP is
> 8.90 USD and 12.02 AUD.  An Australian source charges 16 AUD, so you
> have a very cheap source of that material in the UK.
>
> Once again, anyone here know of a suitable substitute of similar cost
> here in the US?

I think it's also called CEM-1.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
leon.heller@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Codesuidae <codesuidae@...> wrote:

> Did you try your switch to increase the temperature of the laminator?  
> Any thoughts on how practical it is to get the temp on the laminator up 
> to where the oven would not be necessary?

Frankly, as an afterthought, I didn't want to in any way endorse
modifications which might cause "problems," so I didn't use the switch
nor do I plan to.  The oven method is an easy, quick and safe
workaround for anyone stuck with a cheap _thermal_ laminator that
wouldn't otherwise be useful for TT PCBs and is the _only_ method I
recommend.
 
> Thanks for taking the time to report your findings and detail the 
> methods you used!

My pleasure.

Bill

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "newaag" <newaag@...> wrote:
>
> I have also recently been playing with this technique. I can report
> great results with 3 papers - 
> 
> Pulsar TTS paper
> Staples Picture Paper
> Label backing paper  
> 
> I use a laminator with adjustable temperature set on high, bought on
> EBay. It is essential to me for this sort of work. I can highly
> recommend both the IBICO PL-330 (4 roller, a real workhorse) and EL-12
> II(two roller, but also very good). Both have spring loaded rollers.
> variable temp, and work with .062 boards no problem. These cost $43.
> and $26. respectively. My wife uses the smaller one to laminate
> posters at work.

Darn, I wish you'd posted this a few weeks ago. I'd love to be able to
work with thicker boards. I have a lot of surplus double-sided boards
of various thicknesses, but have only tried .021" and .026" through my
Royal PL2100 and am afraid to find the maximum it can handle "the hard
way."

A quick search of closed auctions on eBay indicates that three EL-12
II's have been sold within the time frame searched (?) ranging from
$37 - $80 including postage.  The list price for the EL-12 II
mentioned in one of the ads is $346. Couldn't find any PL-330s.

Thanks,
Bill

wbblair3 wrote:

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Codesuidae <codesuidae@...> wrote:
>
> > Did you try your switch to increase the temperature of the laminator? 
> > Any thoughts on how practical it is to get the temp on the laminator up
> > to where the oven would not be necessary?
>
> Frankly, as an afterthought, I didn't want to in any way endorse
> modifications which might cause "problems," 

Fair enough.

Any idea how much pressure is required to get the toner to transfer?

Would it be reasonable to dispense with the laminator entirely and use 
the oven with either a heavy hand roller or spring-loaded crank roller 
(kind of like the old style washing machines)?

Seems like the main problems would be with getting consistant pressure 
and with the temperature dropping off too quickly if not using heated 
rollers.

Dave K

I am using my PID+TC T controller, to a laminator.
result is perfect to me. And as my experience, without raising
T of original laminator, you can do proper toner transfer.

look at: my tech page
http://ca.geocities.com/microsoftwarecontrol/tmpr/tmpr.htm

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Codesuidae 
  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 3:03 PM
  Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner transfer experiments and a fix for cheap, low-temp laminators


  wbblair3 wrote:

  > And keep in mind that the reason I purchased this particular $30
  > laminator in the first place was to discover whether it worked as well
  > as the previous $99 - $149 Royal model PL2000 which was listed as
  > being very good for toner transfer. When it didn't, I found a
  > workaround that should be applicable to all individuals who are stuck
  > with a thermal laminator that doesn't work well in a toner transfer role.

  Did you try your switch to increase the temperature of the laminator?  
  Any thoughts on how practical it is to get the temp on the laminator up 
  to where the oven would not be necessary?

  Thanks for taking the time to report your findings and detail the 
  methods you used!

  Dave K


  Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs

  If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/ 



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "brewski922" <brewski@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 7:07 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner transfer experiments and a fix for cheap, 
low-temp laminators


>> Why not use the UV exposure technique? It's much simpler and
> quicker
>> and the results are excellent.
>>
>
> Ben there done that, BACK IN THE MID-70s. My gosh, am I that old.
>
> Anyway, from what I remember that was a pain.
>
> 1) Make the PCB artwork.
> 2) Print it on paper.
> 3) Expose the negative.
> 4) Develop the negative.
> 5) Place the negative on a photo sensetive PCB, glass on top of that
> with a weight to make the negative in direct contact with the PCB.
> This has to be done under darkroom lighting.
> 6) Expose the PCB to the UV.
> 7) Develope the PCB.
> 8) Etch the PCB.
> 9) Cut to size and drill.
>
> I realize some of these steps are done in the Toner-Transfer method.
> The TT method must be reconized as a homebrew method.
>
> You are doing this the Twenty-first century way and I for sure don't
> know what might be considered the best homebrew way of doing. I would
> like to get back into making my own prototype PCBs. I'm sure you are
> using one of the better methods. How is the best for me to start
> making PCBs?

If you look back over my recent posts you will see details of my technique.I 
simply print 1:1 onto film with an inkjet printer. I can do 8 mil tracks and 
0.5 mm lead spacing ICs on single-sided boards without any problems -about 
the same as the low-cost PCB suppliers like Olimex.

Leon 

---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
currently using to read this email. ]

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "David Frascone" <dave@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner transfer experiments and a fix for 
cheap, low-temp laminators


> How much does a small UV setup cost?  For say, 6" PCB's (max)?

Mine cost me less than 20 GBP to make. It's not very pretty but it works OK.

Leon

I second that, I've bought copper clad from him a few times and it's an
incredible deal.  all the boards I received were in great condition too,
nothing all corroded from some back warehouse... good as new.

-Evan

On 2/7/06, dl5012 <dl5012@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> That works out to almost 10 cents per sq. inch.  Try abcfab on
> eBay.  You can get single sided single sided 1 oz. 0.062" thick CEM-
> 1 for about 2 cents per sq. inch (including shipping - he uses flat
> rate priority boxes in the US so shipping doesn't dominate cost).
>
> CEM-1 isn't very good for punching or high frequency circuits.  I
> prefer FR4, but can't beat the price.
>
> I haven't seen much single sided FR4 from him, but he does have
> double sided.  He would only be a problem if you needed the full
> 8x10 for a single board; the largest I've seen from him is 6x13.
>
> If you buy from, tell him I referred you.  It might get me some free
> or discounted boards...  I'll check with him to see if it's okay to
> give out his email address so he can save eBay fees...  Contact me
> off-board for details (I don't want him to get spammed because *I*
> posted his address for a bot to pick off).
>
> Anyone care to share their secret contacts to PCB manufacturers who
> will still give/sell scraps to hobbyists?
>
> Regards,
> Dennis
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "newaag" <newaag@...> wrote:
>
> > I found the best price for new boards is circuit specialists, and
> > buy the 1 oz. .062 8x10" boards for $7.50each.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Codesuidae <codesuidae@...> wrote:
>
> wbblair3 wrote:
> 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Codesuidae <codesuidae@> wrote:
> >
> > > Did you try your switch to increase the temperature of the
laminator? 
> > > Any thoughts on how practical it is to get the temp on the
laminator up
> > > to where the oven would not be necessary?
> >
> > Frankly, as an afterthought, I didn't want to in any way endorse
> > modifications which might cause "problems," 
> 
> Fair enough.
> 
> Any idea how much pressure is required to get the toner to transfer?

I really have no hard figures for that although I'd suspect that the
laminator applies a considerable amount of pressure just from looking
at how it does its thing.  How's that for non-empirical?  Perhaps
someone with an adjustable-pressure laminator can give some figures if
there's some kind of scale on their pressure adjustment (beyond just
"light" or "heavy").
 
> Would it be reasonable to dispense with the laminator entirely and
> use the oven with either a heavy hand roller or spring-loaded crank
> roller (kind of like the old style washing machines)?
>
> Seems like the main problems would be with getting consistant
> pressure and with the temperature dropping off too quickly if 
> not using heated rollers.

We're really on the same wavelength here (i.e. keep it simple and
_cheap_)!  You've posed both the idea and some of the possible
problems with that idea that I considered before I even spent $30 on a
laminator.  The PCB material heats up and cools down _very_ quickly,
so the heated rollers of even a laminator that doesn't quite reach the
fusing temperature by itself _really_ helps to keep the board hot
enough for the transfer of toner.  Plus, while going through the
laminator's heated rollers, the board has no contact with effective
heat sinks of any kind.  Finally, the high-temp rubber(?) used for the
rollers probably ensures that the roller contact pressure is applied
fairly uniformly across the PCB.

I considered using the rubber platen from an old typewriter along with
a cheap rubber mousepad to set the hot PCB on to both cushion and
insulate it, but I didn't have access to a really cheap typewriter to
rip apart.  To make it worth the attempt to replace something that I
knew I could eventually get to work (the $30 laminator), I'd have to
get the typewriter for free or very close to it. Then there's the
question of how cylindrical IS an old typewriter platen and can it and
the rubber mosepad withstand the 390F heat?  I'd love to know.

Finally, I considered using a rubber pad to place the heated PCB on
and the back of a large metal spoon to press down on the transfer
paper in overlapping circular patterns.  However, that introduces a
potentially random factor related to technique which was a weakness of
the iron method I was trying to avoid.

I'd bet the laundry roller method that you mentioned just might work
as long as there was unform pressure across the rollers with no
variation caused through many years of wringing laundry.  However, I
don't have access to one of those to try it.

I'd welcome further experimentation on this.  It'd be neat to come up
with an oven method that would use _really_ cheap (near $0) hardware
to replace the laminator. 
 
Bill

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "microsoftwarecontrol"
<microsoftwarecontrol@...> wrote:
>
> I am using my PID+TC T controller, to a laminator.
> result is perfect to me. And as my experience, without raising
> T of original laminator, you can do proper toner transfer.
> 
> look at: my tech page
> http://ca.geocities.com/microsoftwarecontrol/tmpr/tmpr.htm

That is _REALLY_ cool!

Bill

Dennis 

Wow ! thanks for that tip. I see he has 1/8 thick unclad too, perfect
for some other projects (ever build tube amps with point to point wiring?)


I'll try the CEM, and compare to FR-4. This is audio type stuff, so
likely OK. No, you can't beat the price, 
Thanks again,

Bob
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "dl5012" <dl5012@...> wrote:

>
> Hi Bob,
> 
> That works out to almost 10 cents per sq. inch.  Try abcfab on 
> eBay.  You can get single sided single sided 1 oz. 0.062" thick CEM-
> 1 for about 2 cents per sq. inch (including shipping - he uses flat 
> rate priority boxes in the US so shipping doesn't dominate cost).
> 
> CEM-1 isn't very good for punching or high frequency circuits.  I 
> prefer FR4, but can't beat the price.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "brewski922" <brewski@...> wrote:
>
> >  As stated in my post, the problem was that both of my irons didn't
> > reach the 200C (392F) toner fusion temperature anywhere on their
> > surfaces.  Given that they were two different irons of different
> > brands, I suspect that this might be a common problem.
> 
> What if you bypassed the thermostat in the irons?

A post elsewhere in this forum clearly pointed out to me that my iron
measurements were grossly inaccurate.  As someone else here stated
earlier, with an iron it's the _technique_ that's the potential
problem, not the heat.

Bill

Hi Bill;

The key for thicker boards is to put the board into the laminator on a
diagonal. I use a very thin paper "wrapper" (8.5x11 folded in half)
around the board and transfer paper, it keep the transfer paper/foil
from moving on the first feed. I use 4-5 passes, and the board is
really hot by the last pass. 

I found that emailing sellers with "as is" laminator auctions and
asking them to put paper through the laminator (do the rollers feed?
Does it heat up?) can net you a cheap laminator that others will ignore.

the Ibico PL-260 is similar to the PL-330 - here's one on 
Ebay at 20., no bids, 2 days left - EBay  Item number: 7587342580	
These sold for about 500. new and weigh about 25-30lbs - metal gear
motors, 4 big fat rubber coated rollers, etc. - industrial strength.  

The IBICO EL 12 II, even at 80. Buy it now/free shipping (EBaY
#7587212358) is a good deal, they still sell for well over $300. new. 
Here another one - EBay #7588269821

here's the one's I mentioned earlier - good deals are still out there

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7578936864
and 
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7578405524

With these quality units you don't need to screw around or modify the
units- meaning you can actually use them to laminate pictures, luggage
tags, etc. too. Or sell them if you care to at some point in the
future, they still have value as they are stock units.    
   
Bob

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "wbblair3" <wbblair3@...> wrote:

> Darn, I wish you'd posted this a few weeks ago. I'd love to be able to
> work with thicker boards. I have a lot of surplus double-sided boards
> of various thicknesses, but have only tried .021" and .026" through my
> Royal PL2100 and am afraid to find the maximum it can handle "the hard
> way."
> 
> A quick search of closed auctions on eBay indicates that three EL-12
> II's have been sold within the time frame searched (?) ranging from
> $37 - $80 including postage.  The list price for the EL-12 II
> mentioned in one of the ads is $346. Couldn't find any PL-330s.
> 
> Thanks,
> Bill
>

Hi Bob,

I've done a lot of circuits with point-to-point wiring.  Since I 
found the TT method, I haven't done any.  But I decided for some 
quick prototypes, it's better than working on a good layout and then 
finding out that the circuit needs to be changed and am doing some 
layouts for my own proto boards (ready made are rediculously 
expensive and all they offer over homemade is plated through holes).

If you don't mind, let abcfab know I referred you.  I'll check with 
him this evening to see if it's okay to give out his email address.  
I bought from him once on eBay and started contacting him directly 
when I needed more boards.

Regards,
Dennis

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "newaag" <newaag@...> wrote:
>
> Dennis 
> 
> Wow ! thanks for that tip. I see he has 1/8 thick unclad too, 
perfect
> for some other projects (ever build tube amps with point to point 
wiring?)

On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 22:02:56 +0100, Codesuidae <codesuidae@...>  
wrote:

> Would it be reasonable to dispense with the laminator entirely and use
>
> the oven with either a heavy hand roller or spring-loaded crank roller
>
> (kind of like the old style washing machines)?
>
>
> Seems like the main problems would be with getting consistant pressure
>
> and with the temperature dropping off too quickly if not using heated
>
> rollers.
>
>
> Dave K


Use a fuser assy, it's cheap, ready made, and has a heated roller that  
does the temperature for toner.

ST

On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 20:36:48 +0100, brewski922 <brewski@...> wrote:

> What if you bypassed the thermostat in the irons?
>
>
> Mike


It melts down.

I have seen a iron with a melted plate once.
Not a good idea.
All modern ones will have secondary thermal fuses too (but i'm sure you'd  
find a way to short those!)

I did not see the flaw in the OP due to the degree F thing (which tells me  
about as much as any random number), but i do know the irons i measured  
are all capable of 200C or slightly over on highest setting.

ST

On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 23:33:51 +0100, wbblair3 <wbblair3@...> wrote:

> I really have no hard figures for that although I'd suspect that the
>
> laminator applies a considerable amount of pressure just from looking
>
> at how it does its thing.  How's that for non-empirical?  Perhaps
>
> someone with an adjustable-pressure laminator can give some figures if
>
> there's some kind of scale on their pressure adjustment (beyond just
>
> "light" or "heavy").


You mean, from "thin end of wedge" to "wide end of wedge" is not good  
enough for you? ;-)
It must be 50 years since the last thing with actual physical units on a  
scale was produced, WAY too dangerous these days, someone might actually  
rely on it, or worse even check it, and find out it's way off because  
there wasn't the budget to calibrate it.

I sometimes label stuff like thermostat controls in degrees by painstaking  
measurements, but i would have no idea how to measure the force of my  
fuser.

ST

On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 19:49:33 +0100, adicont2 <adicont2@...> wrote:

> A perfect board preparation is crucial for good results. I have same
>
> problem in the past and I blame my iron too. Now I spent at least 10
>
> minutes to board preparation (Scoch&Brite + Ajax + hard work).
>
> My iron seting is in 200C range. This temperature is ok for my tipe of
>
> tonner.
>
>
>
>
> Adrian
>


I wouldn't say you need to spend that much time, i just quickly sand the  
board with very fine paper (so that you see marks everywhere is enough)  
and then wipe it twice with a paper towel and alcohol. I don't think that  
takes even half a minute. Those abrasive pads you get for preparing copper  
tubing for soldering work well instead of the sanding paper too.

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 20:36:48 +0100, brewski922 <brewski@...> wrote:
> 
> > What if you bypassed the thermostat in the irons?
> >
> > Mike
> 
> It melts down.
> 
> I have seen a iron with a melted plate once.
> Not a good idea.
> All modern ones will have secondary thermal fuses too (but i'm sure
> you'd find a way to short those!)

I think you may be misdirecting sarcasm at poor Mike rather than the
person who earlier documented the _intermittent_ and _monitored_
bypassing of his laminator thermostat with an appropriately rated
_momentary_ switch: me.  

> I did not see the flaw in the OP due to the degree F thing (which 
> tells me about as much as any random number), but i do know the
> irons i measured are all capable of 200C or slightly over on 
> highest setting.

Well, as I admitted in an earlier post, emissivity error made my iron
temperature measurements inaccurate and it was, as someone here had
said, my ironing technique that was at fault.  However, that error was
incidental to the acheived goal which was to find an easy and cheap
method to produce quality transfers that doesn't rely on ironing
technique using a low-cost laminator.  In the process, I gave those
who own thermal laminators that they've found to be otherwise useless
for toner transfer an easy fix using something thay already have in
their home, an oven (note my subject title).  And recall that I took a
chance and purchased the $30 Royal PL2100 in the first place to
determine if it was as good as the more expensive PL2000 it replaced
and which was listed as very good for toner transfer use in this
forum's database. The answer, unfortunately, was, "No."  Fortunately,
I found a workaround that cost me $0 and gave me perfect results with
little effort.

Bill

Bob,
I second what Dennis said.  I just got six 8 x 12 sheets of FR4, .031"
from abcfab, and they're pretty good.  Like he says in his ads, they
may need a bit of touching up with cleaner.  I plan to get some more,
thicker stock, and I'll go with him again.  The six 8 x 12's cost me
$6 plus 4.50 shipping by Priority Mail, and he will combine purchases
to save on shipping.

Ted

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "dl5012" <dl5012@...> wrote:

>
> Hi Bob,
> 
> That works out to almost 10 cents per sq. inch.  Try abcfab on 
> eBay.  You can get single sided single sided 1 oz. 0.062" thick CEM-
> 1 for about 2 cents per sq. inch (including shipping - he uses flat 
> rate priority boxes in the US so shipping doesn't dominate cost).
> 
> CEM-1 isn't very good for punching or high frequency circuits.  I 
> prefer FR4, but can't beat the price.
> 
> I haven't seen much single sided FR4 from him, but he does have 
> double sided.  He would only be a problem if you needed the full 
> 8x10 for a single board; the largest I've seen from him is 6x13.
> 
> If you buy from, tell him I referred you.  It might get me some free 
> or discounted boards...  I'll check with him to see if it's okay to 
> give out his email address so he can save eBay fees...  Contact me 
> off-board for details (I don't want him to get spammed because *I* 
> posted his address for a bot to pick off).
> 
> Anyone care to share their secret contacts to PCB manufacturers who 
> will still give/sell scraps to hobbyists?
> 
> Regards,
> Dennis
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "newaag" <newaag@> wrote:
> 
> > I found the best price for new boards is circuit specialists, and
> > buy the 1 oz. .062 8x10" boards for $7.50each.
>

Dennis;

I put a message to abcfab in the Ebay comments box when requesting
payment total that said "I was referred to you by Dennis of the Yahoo
Homebrew PCB group". send me an email - bob at fmtunerinfo.com and
I'll give him your full name/email. 

BTW, here's what I meant for tube amps - these guys build them with
unclad boards and turret lugs/eyelets. Due to the tube heat, weight of
components, and transportation abuse these amps see, over the long
haul this method ends up being more rugged than using copper laminated
cladding. The guitar guys also think it's "cooler" and sounds better.
It's also good for prototyping large component assemblies, like power
supplies.
 
parts - http://tinyurl.com/998sh

example projects - 

http://www.hoffmanamps.com/projects/StereoPreAmp1.htm

http://www.hoffmanamps.com/projects/18WattStoutReverbNoSwitch_1.htm

When you see what this guy charges for .125 unclad board, you'll see
why I said abcfab is such a good deal. 

Bob
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "dl5012" <dl5012@...> wrote:

>
> Hi Bob,
> 
> I've done a lot of circuits with point-to-point wiring.  Since I 
> found the TT method, I haven't done any.  But I decided for some 
> quick prototypes, it's better than working on a good layout and then 
> finding out that the circuit needs to be changed and am doing some 
> layouts for my own proto boards (ready made are rediculously 
> expensive and all they offer over homemade is plated through holes).
> 
> If you don't mind, let abcfab know I referred you.  I'll check with 
> him this evening to see if it's okay to give out his email address.  
> I bought from him once on eBay and started contacting him directly 
> when I needed more boards.
> 
> Regards,
> Dennis

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "newaag" <newaag@...> wrote:

> The key for thicker boards is to put the board into the laminator on
> a diagonal. I use a very thin paper "wrapper" (8.5x11 folded in 
> half) around the board and transfer paper, it keep the transfer 
> paper/foil from moving on the first feed. I use 4-5 passes, and the
> board is really hot by the last pass.

Bob,

This is OK for even cheap laminators like mine?  I'm primarily afraid
of damaging the rollers or is that not likely because of the rubber
used? If so, I'll give it a try! 
 
> I found that emailing sellers with "as is" laminator auctions and
> asking them to put paper through the laminator (do the rollers feed?
> Does it heat up?) can net you a cheap laminator that others will
> ignore.
> 
> the Ibico PL-260 is similar to the PL-330 - here's one on 
> Ebay at 20., no bids, 2 days left - EBay  Item number: 7587342580	
> These sold for about 500. new and weigh about 25-30lbs - metal gear
> motors, 4 big fat rubber coated rollers, etc. - industrial strength.  

Many thanks for the info on Ibico laminators and tips on what to buy.
 I'll try to work with what I've got right now, but I'm saving a list
of the models you mentioned if I ever decide that I need something
better.  Here's what I've got so far:

Ibico PL-260
Ibico PL-330
Ibico EL-12 II

Are there any others to add?

Thanks!
Bill

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "dl5012" <dl5012@...> wrote:
>Try abcfab on eBay
>I haven't seen much single sided FR4 from him

I thought I knew that name from somewhere. :)

Looks like that's where my double-sided stock came from back in 
September.

10- 4.5"x9" sheets of FR-4 were only 6 bucks, plus 4 for shipping and 
showed up quick. Nice solid stuff. I'm still using it whenever I dare 
to venture into the two-sided world.

Another "me too" for abcfab!

George

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "wbblair3" <wbblair3@...> wrote:

> Bob,
> 
> This is OK for even cheap laminators like mine?  

Probably not. What I meant was even on the industrial spring loaded
roller models, you may have have a banging noise and possible problem
if you feed it in board parallel to the rollers. It need to be on a
good angle. 



I'm primarily afraid
> of damaging the rollers or is that not likely because of the rubber
> used? If so, I'll give it a try! 

See above, I have no idea what your model can do, or not. 


> Many thanks for the info on Ibico laminators and tips on what to buy.
>  I'll try to work with what I've got right now, but I'm saving a list
> of the models you mentioned if I ever decide that I need something
> better.  Here's what I've got so far:
> 
> Ibico PL-260
> Ibico PL-330
> Ibico EL-12 II
> 
> Are there any others to add?


Yep, these below are bad looking black machines, appear to be the
newer versions of the above PL-260/330 industrial series 

Ibico PL-12A 12" wide  4 roller
Ibico PL-135-4 13.5" wide 4 roller 
Ibico  PL-4A 4" wide 4 roller (may not work that well due to width though)

also there is small (4inch?) version of the PL-330, called the PL-140
 
If you buy one of these Ibico industrial models, you can still get
parts for it. Call Ibico service at 800-790-7787, ask them to fax you
a parts list for your model with exploded drawing. 

They faxed one to me for the PL140/260/330 series. I thought my model
was missing a gear on the front top feed roller. Turns out no, the
gear was not in the parts drawing, that roller is not driven.
Now I have a nice drawing and parts list though. 

I am a firm believer in buying quality instruments as cheap as
possible, and am happy to help others in the pursuit. 

Bob

Stefan Trethan wrote:

>Use a fuser assy, it's cheap, ready made, and has a heated roller that  
>does the temperature for toner.
>  
>
This is a good point, as it happens I have a very large laser printer 
salvaged from work.  It all works, except the toner carterages are very 
expensive (thats why I have it, it was cheaper to buy a new printer than 
a new toner cart).

I could probably use it as a printer, but its enormous, nearly 9 cubic 
feet.  I'd rather strip it down into a PCB machine that can handle 11 
inch wide boards than have that monster taking up my office.  Not that I 
make 11 inch boards. :)

Dave K

Codesuidae wrote:

>I could probably use it as a printer, but its enormous, nearly 9 cubic 
>feet. 
>
Doh, make that 9 square feet (of desk space).  more like 25 cubic feet.

Dave K

On 7 Feb 2006, at 20:03, Codesuidae wrote:

> Did you try your switch to increase the temperature of the laminator?

Laminator may be protected by a thermal fuse, which will open if its  
max. temp. capability is breached.

-- 

Cheers

Derryck

On Wed, 08 Feb 2006 01:54:20 +0100, wbblair3 <wbblair3@...> wrote:

> I think you may be misdirecting sarcasm at poor Mike rather than the
>
> person who earlier documented the _intermittent_ and _monitored_
>
> bypassing of his laminator thermostat with an appropriately rated
>
> _momentary_ switch: me.


I wasn't meaning to direct sarcasm at anyone, i just stated a fact, they  
will melt themselves down badly with a faulty thermostat.
It's not a good idea for long-term use, better make adjustments to the  
thermostat or use a different one.


ST

Add to your list of good laminators:

Xerox XRX-LM1910

It's $39 after rebate at STAPLES.

It's rugged, will do regular thickness boards, and has
a thermostat. The setting for "Foil" seems to work the
best.

TANSTAAFL!

Myc

--- wbblair3 <wbblair3@...> wrote:

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "newaag"
> <newaag@...> wrote:
> 
> > The key for thicker boards is to put the board
> into the laminator on
> > a diagonal. I use a very thin paper "wrapper"
> (8.5x11 folded in 
> > half) around the board and transfer paper, it keep
> the transfer 
> > paper/foil from moving on the first feed. I use
> 4-5 passes, and the
> > board is really hot by the last pass.
> 
> Bob,
> 
> This is OK for even cheap laminators like mine?  I'm
> primarily afraid
> of damaging the rollers or is that not likely
> because of the rubber
> used? If so, I'll give it a try! 
>  
> > I found that emailing sellers with "as is"
> laminator auctions and
> > asking them to put paper through the laminator (do
> the rollers feed?
> > Does it heat up?) can net you a cheap laminator
> that others will
> > ignore.
> > 
> > the Ibico PL-260 is similar to the PL-330 - here's
> one on 
> > Ebay at 20., no bids, 2 days left - EBay  Item
> number: 7587342580	
> > These sold for about 500. new and weigh about
> 25-30lbs - metal gear
> > motors, 4 big fat rubber coated rollers, etc. -
> industrial strength.  
> 
> Many thanks for the info on Ibico laminators and
> tips on what to buy.
>  I'll try to work with what I've got right now, but
> I'm saving a list
> of the models you mentioned if I ever decide that I
> need something
> better.  Here's what I've got so far:
> 
> Ibico PL-260
> Ibico PL-330
> Ibico EL-12 II
> 
> Are there any others to add?
> 
> Thanks!
> Bill
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 08 Feb 2006 01:54:20 +0100, wbblair3 <wbblair3@...> wrote:
> 
> > I think you may be misdirecting sarcasm at poor Mike rather than the
> >
> > person who earlier documented the _intermittent_ and _monitored_
> >
> > bypassing of his laminator thermostat with an appropriately rated
> >
> > _momentary_ switch: me.
> 
> 
> I wasn't meaning to direct sarcasm at anyone, i just stated a fact,
> they will melt themselves down badly with a faulty thermostat.
> It's not a good idea for long-term use, better make adjustments to
> the thermostat or use a different one.
> 
> 
> ST

I certainly agree which is why I didn't and don't recommend to others
that they bypass their laminator thermostats even intermittently.  The
momentary toggle switch I installed allowed me to bypass the
thermostat just prior to the insertion of the PCB into the laminator
and during the short period of time it was moving through the
laminator.  However, when I found that placing the PCB in the oven for
just a few minutes eliminated any toner transfer problems, the use of
the bypass switch became unecessary.

Bill

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mycroft2152 <mycroft2152@...> wrote:
>
> Add to your list of good laminators:
> 
> Xerox XRX-LM1910
> 
> It's $39 after rebate at STAPLES.
> 
> It's rugged, will do regular thickness boards, and has
> a thermostat. The setting for "Foil" seems to work the
> best.
> 
> TANSTAAFL!
> 
> Myc

Now ya' tell me. ;-) Staples.com lists $79.95 for that one right now,
though. Sometimes rebates are different for different regions or maybe
the rebate has expired or isn't offered nationwide.  

Anyway, I wish the forum's database section of known good laminators
had included that one and some of the others I've been told about here
in just the past few days.  I encourage everyone to take a few minutes
and document their experiences in that section.  I'll definitely be
adding the Royal PL2100 into the  "not good" category.

Thanks,
Bill

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "newaag" <newaag@...> wrote:

> I am a firm believer in buying quality instruments as cheap as
> possible, and am happy to help others in the pursuit. 
> 
> Bob

And I thank you for the valuable info you've contributed. I will be
filing it away for future reference.

Thanks!
Bill

How do you layout the stuff for point-to-point?  It always looks so neat 
and clean, but, when I built my tube preamp, my wiring looked like a 
rats nest . . . . Is there software or something to help with 
point-to-point wiring?

-Dave

newaag wrote:
> Dennis;
>
> I put a message to abcfab in the Ebay comments box when requesting
> payment total that said "I was referred to you by Dennis of the Yahoo
> Homebrew PCB group". send me an email - bob at fmtunerinfo.com and
> I'll give him your full name/email. 
>
> BTW, here's what I meant for tube amps - these guys build them with
> unclad boards and turret lugs/eyelets. Due to the tube heat, weight of
> components, and transportation abuse these amps see, over the long
> haul this method ends up being more rugged than using copper laminated
> cladding. The guitar guys also think it's "cooler" and sounds better.
> It's also good for prototyping large component assemblies, like power
> supplies.
>  
> parts - http://tinyurl.com/998sh
>
> example projects - 
>
> http://www.hoffmanamps.com/projects/StereoPreAmp1.htm
>
> http://www.hoffmanamps.com/projects/18WattStoutReverbNoSwitch_1.htm
>
> When you see what this guy charges for .125 unclad board, you'll see
> why I said abcfab is such a good deal. 
>
> Bob
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "dl5012" <dl5012@...> wrote:
>   
>> Hi Bob,
>>
>> I've done a lot of circuits with point-to-point wiring.  Since I 
>> found the TT method, I haven't done any.  But I decided for some 
>> quick prototypes, it's better than working on a good layout and then 
>> finding out that the circuit needs to be changed and am doing some 
>> layouts for my own proto boards (ready made are rediculously 
>> expensive and all they offer over homemade is plated through holes).
>>
>> If you don't mind, let abcfab know I referred you.  I'll check with 
>> him this evening to see if it's okay to give out his email address.  
>> I bought from him once on eBay and started contacting him directly 
>> when I needed more boards.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Dennis
>>     
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/ 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>   

-- 

David Frascone

          We now return you to your regularly scheduled flame-throwing

Hi Dave,

It boils down to component placement to minimize wire lengths and 
crossings.  I used to do it on paper; now I use PCB layout software.

For simple circuits, I just do the layout and routing manually.  For 
more complex circuits, I might draw a schematic so the program can 
make routing easier and check connectivity.

In general, I don't use autorouting.

I use Eagle Lite. It's free, but can only autoroute small boards.

Regards,
Dennis

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, David Frascone <dave@...> wrote:
>
> How do you layout the stuff for point-to-point?  It always looks so 
neat 

> and clean, but, when I built my tube preamp, my wiring looked like a 
> rats nest . . . . Is there software or something to help with 
> point-to-point wiring?

Just going to throw in my 2 cents... I picked up a GBC 9in laminator 
from Office Max for $30. Four passes and the toner is fused to the 
copper. 

Keith
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mycroft2152 <mycroft2152@...> 
wrote:

>
> Add to your list of good laminators:
> 
> Xerox XRX-LM1910
> 
> It's $39 after rebate at STAPLES.
> 
> It's rugged, will do regular thickness boards, and has
> a thermostat. The setting for "Foil" seems to work the
> best.
> 
> TANSTAAFL!
> 
> Myc
> 
> --- wbblair3 <wbblair3@...> wrote:
> 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "newaag"
> > <newaag@> wrote:
> > 
> > > The key for thicker boards is to put the board
> > into the laminator on
> > > a diagonal. I use a very thin paper "wrapper"
> > (8.5x11 folded in 
> > > half) around the board and transfer paper, it keep
> > the transfer 
> > > paper/foil from moving on the first feed. I use
> > 4-5 passes, and the
> > > board is really hot by the last pass.
> > 
> > Bob,
> > 
> > This is OK for even cheap laminators like mine?  I'm
> > primarily afraid
> > of damaging the rollers or is that not likely
> > because of the rubber
> > used? If so, I'll give it a try! 
> >  
> > > I found that emailing sellers with "as is"
> > laminator auctions and
> > > asking them to put paper through the laminator (do
> > the rollers feed?
> > > Does it heat up?) can net you a cheap laminator
> > that others will
> > > ignore.
> > > 
> > > the Ibico PL-260 is similar to the PL-330 - here's
> > one on 
> > > Ebay at 20., no bids, 2 days left - EBay  Item
> > number: 7587342580	
> > > These sold for about 500. new and weigh about
> > 25-30lbs - metal gear
> > > motors, 4 big fat rubber coated rollers, etc. -
> > industrial strength.  
> > 
> > Many thanks for the info on Ibico laminators and
> > tips on what to buy.
> >  I'll try to work with what I've got right now, but
> > I'm saving a list
> > of the models you mentioned if I ever decide that I
> > need something
> > better.  Here's what I've got so far:
> > 
> > Ibico PL-260
> > Ibico PL-330
> > Ibico EL-12 II
> > 
> > Are there any others to add?
> > 
> > Thanks!
> > Bill
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

I meant for the point-to-point wiring technique?  Do you use layout 
software for that?

-Dave

dl5012 wrote:
> Hi Dave,
>
> It boils down to component placement to minimize wire lengths and 
> crossings.  I used to do it on paper; now I use PCB layout software.
>
> For simple circuits, I just do the layout and routing manually.  For 
> more complex circuits, I might draw a schematic so the program can 
> make routing easier and check connectivity.
>
> In general, I don't use autorouting.
>
> I use Eagle Lite. It's free, but can only autoroute small boards.
>
> Regards,
> Dennis
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, David Frascone <dave@...> wrote:
>   
>> How do you layout the stuff for point-to-point?  It always looks so 
>>     
> neat 
>   
>> and clean, but, when I built my tube preamp, my wiring looked like a 
>> rats nest . . . . Is there software or something to help with 
>> point-to-point wiring?
>>     
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/ 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>   

-- 

David Frascone

               Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change.

Hi Dave,

Yes, I'm using PCB layout software to plan boards that I wire by 
hand.

There are several techniques to facilitate layout.  The first is to 
draw a "pretty" schematic.  If you minimize wire crossings and 
routing lengths; it's easier to translate that into good layout.  If 
you size the components on the schematic to reflect their relative 
sizes, that helps too (i.e. if you're using a transistor in TO-3, 
draw it larger than one in TO-92).

I only started making boards again last year.  Before that, I used 
PCB layout software to help me do point-to-point wiring.  Minimizing 
wire crossings will address the rats nest issue you mentioned.  Not 
to mention that it makes reworking the board easier.

Doing the layout gives you the documentation you'll need anyway 
(component diagram, schematic diagram, wire routing).  I also size 
the traces depending on current requirements and having that 
documented makes assembly go faster.

If you're working on amplifiers, minimizing wire crossings also 
helps you avoid unintentional feedback; which can turn amplifiers 
into oscillators...

Regards,
Dennis

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, David Frascone <dave@...> 
wrote:
>
> I meant for the point-to-point wiring technique?  Do you use 
layout 
> software for that?
> 
> -Dave
> 
> dl5012 wrote:
> > Hi Dave,
> >
> > It boils down to component placement to minimize wire lengths 
and 
> > crossings.  I used to do it on paper; now I use PCB layout 
software.
> >
> > For simple circuits, I just do the layout and routing manually.  
For 
> > more complex circuits, I might draw a schematic so the program 
can 

> > make routing easier and check connectivity.
> >
> > In general, I don't use autorouting.
> >
> > I use Eagle Lite. It's free, but can only autoroute small boards.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Dennis

On Wed, 08 Feb 2006 18:45:31 +0100, David Frascone <dave@...>  
wrote:

> How do you layout the stuff for point-to-point?  It always looks so neat
>
> and clean, but, when I built my tube preamp, my wiring looked like a
>
> rats nest . . . . Is there software or something to help with
>
> point-to-point wiring?
>
>
> -Dave


Lol, if you have entered in a software you can make a proper PCB as well  
;-)

There is software for stripeboards, i haven't seen and for point to point.

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Keith Applegarth"
<keith.applegarth@...> wrote:
>
> Just going to throw in my 2 cents... I picked up a GBC 9in laminator 
> from Office Max for $30. Four passes and the toner is fused to the 
> copper. 
> 
> Keith

That's fantastic performance. Which model GBC is that? If it isn't
already in the database at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/database

_please_ spend a minute to enter it there. It's super easy to do and,
honestly, only takes a minute or so out of your time.

Thanks,
Bill

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Derryck Croker <derryck@...> wrote:
>
> On 7 Feb 2006, at 20:03, Codesuidae wrote:
> 
> > Did you try your switch to increase the temperature of the laminator?
> 
> Laminator may be protected by a thermal fuse, which will open if its  
> max. temp. capability is breached.
> 
> -- 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Derryck

He was referring to the momentary toggle switch I'd mentioned that I'd
installed on my wimpy (heat-wise) Royal PL2100 laminator to
intermittently bypass the thermostat for very short intervals.  Once
the laminator was heated up to operating temperature, I found that the
thermostat turned on the heaters with an approximate 30% duty cycle. 
I intended to activate my switch just prior to inserting a PCB and
hold it on during its short pass through the machine just to make
certain that the rollers were at their maximum temp.  This would not
have been higher than the 390F temperature (very close to the 392F
documented fusing point of toner) I measured on the laser printer
fuser heating elements used in the laminator.  I believe that the
orange silicon rubber rollers were also probably designed for use in
laser printer fusers.  

However, I discouraged anyone else from doing this sort of thing. 
And, in the end, it turned out to be totally unecessary.  I found that
the simple fix for anyone stuck with a thermal laminator that was too
low-temp to reliably fuse toner to PCBs was to tack the artwork to the
board with a pass or two through the laminator, put the board into a
pre-heated 390F oven for a few minutes and then run the board through
the laminator again.  This gave absolutely perfect results with no
potentially risky laminator modifications needed.

Bill

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Keith Applegarth"
<keith.applegarth@...> wrote:
>
> Just going to throw in my 2 cents... I picked up a GBC 9in laminator 
> from Office Max for $30. Four passes and the toner is fused to the 
> copper. 
> 
 Have you used it for anything thicker than .032 board?  Pulsar sells
this unit as part of their Toner Transfer System starter's package. 
But they say it is limited to thin board.

I'd like to try mine on some small--2 x 3 inch .062 boards.  Perhaps I
could just run the boards in the middle of the opening.

Hi Bob,

I have the 4" version of the GBC. I have run .062
boards through it. The trick is to feed them in at a
slight angle, so the rollers only grab a corner at
first. Trying to feed these boards in square causes
the GBC to choke.

TANSTAAFL!

Myc

--- bob_ledoux <bobledoux@...> wrote:

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Keith
> Applegarth"
> <keith.applegarth@...> wrote:
> >
> > Just going to throw in my 2 cents... I picked up a
> GBC 9in laminator 
> > from Office Max for $30. Four passes and the toner
> is fused to the 
> > copper. 
> > 
>  Have you used it for anything thicker than .032
> board?  Pulsar sells
> this unit as part of their Toner Transfer System
> starter's package. 
> But they say it is limited to thin board.
> 
> I'd like to try mine on some small--2 x 3 inch .062
> boards.  Perhaps I
> could just run the boards in the middle of the
> opening.
> 
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com

I would add a few fine points to this point to point layout discussion
using PCB software. 

From what I see, the most important thing is size your components
first. Measure the size of the resistors, caps, etc, then either find,
in the parts database, or make yourself, with the component editor,
the parts to correct size. I also use Eagle lite, and if you go to
their website, you'll find quite a few parts libraries you can
download. A few of those contain tube with correct pinouts as well. 
Then do the layout of the circuit just like you are making a circuit
board. Using a laminator or iron, print the top component layout, and
the bottom wiring diagram onto an unclad fiberglass board (I recommend
.125 thick). With this method, it's not so picky that things are
perfect, so label backing paper and a hot iron would likely work just
fine. 

Then using the component layout, drill the board for turrets or
eyelets. Attach these, then install components, and point to point
wire the board using the bottom side black traces as a wiring diagram. 
With point to point, one thing you are allowed to do is cross wires.
You can also do this by using a two layer design, and using top and
bottom wiring for crossed wires. 

The problem with Eagle lite is the board size limit. I work around
this in some cases by doing subassemblies, which can then be
conveniently all "printed" onto on big board using the toner transfer
technique. Of course a better solution is to use another program cheap
layout that doesn't limit board size. The two I have used are Protel
(free DOS version) , and Ivex Winboard.
http://www.nteinc.com/cad/prodwb.html
The cheap version of the Ivex Winboard program is 39. and limits you
not to board size, but to 200 pins. 

This technique is also perfect for large component layouts like power
supplies with big electrolytic caps and board mounted transformers. I
like things to be sturdy, and don't feel good about using 1 oz. copper
pads to hold a multi-pound transformer in place. Copper eyelets on a
1/8" board is fine, though.   Just some thoughts.

Bob
 


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "dl5012" <dl5012@...> wrote:

>
> Hi Dave,
> 
> Yes, I'm using PCB layout software to plan boards that I wire by 
> hand.
> 
> There are several techniques to facilitate layout.  The first is to 
> draw a "pretty" schematic.  If you minimize wire crossings and 
> routing lengths; it's easier to translate that into good layout.  If 
> you size the components on the schematic to reflect their relative 
> sizes, that helps too (i.e. if you're using a transistor in TO-3, 
> draw it larger than one in TO-92).
> 
> I only started making boards again last year.  Before that, I used 
> PCB layout software to help me do point-to-point wiring.  Minimizing 
> wire crossings will address the rats nest issue you mentioned.  Not 
> to mention that it makes reworking the board easier.
> 
> Doing the layout gives you the documentation you'll need anyway 
> (component diagram, schematic diagram, wire routing).  I also size 
> the traces depending on current requirements and having that 
> documented makes assembly go faster.
> 
> If you're working on amplifiers, minimizing wire crossings also 
> helps you avoid unintentional feedback; which can turn amplifiers 
> into oscillators...
> 
> Regards,
> Dennis
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, David Frascone <dave@> 
> wrote:
> >
> > I meant for the point-to-point wiring technique?  Do you use 
> layout 
> > software for that?
> > 
> > -Dave
> > 
> > dl5012 wrote:
> > > Hi Dave,
> > >
> > > It boils down to component placement to minimize wire lengths 
> and 
> > > crossings.  I used to do it on paper; now I use PCB layout 
> software.
> > >
> > > For simple circuits, I just do the layout and routing manually.  
> For 
> > > more complex circuits, I might draw a schematic so the program 
> can 
> > > make routing easier and check connectivity.
> > >
> > > In general, I don't use autorouting.
> > >
> > > I use Eagle Lite. It's free, but can only autoroute small boards.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Dennis
>

Hi Bpb,

I used EAGLE LITE for a number of years, but have
moved over to DipTrace.

www.diptrace.com

Diptrace Free has a 250 pin limit but no limit on
board size. 

It's a lot easier to learn and use than EAGLE. Making
new components is a snap.

TANSTAAFL!

Myc

--- newaag <newaag@...> wrote:

> I would add a few fine points to this point to point
> layout discussion
> using PCB software. 
> 
> From what I see, the most important thing is size
> your components
> first. Measure the size of the resistors, caps, etc,
> then either find,
> in the parts database, or make yourself, with the
> component editor,
> the parts to correct size. I also use Eagle lite,
> and if you go to
> their website, you'll find quite a few parts
> libraries you can
> download. A few of those contain tube with correct
> pinouts as well. 
> Then do the layout of the circuit just like you are
> making a circuit
> board. Using a laminator or iron, print the top
> component layout, and
> the bottom wiring diagram onto an unclad fiberglass
> board (I recommend
> .125 thick). With this method, it's not so picky
> that things are
> perfect, so label backing paper and a hot iron would
> likely work just
> fine. 
> 
> Then using the component layout, drill the board for
> turrets or
> eyelets. Attach these, then install components, and
> point to point
> wire the board using the bottom side black traces as
> a wiring diagram. 
> With point to point, one thing you are allowed to do
> is cross wires.
> You can also do this by using a two layer design,
> and using top and
> bottom wiring for crossed wires. 
> 
> The problem with Eagle lite is the board size limit.
> I work around
> this in some cases by doing subassemblies, which can
> then be
> conveniently all "printed" onto on big board using
> the toner transfer
> technique. Of course a better solution is to use
> another program cheap
> layout that doesn't limit board size. The two I have
> used are Protel
> (free DOS version) , and Ivex Winboard.
> http://www.nteinc.com/cad/prodwb.html
> The cheap version of the Ivex Winboard program is
> 39. and limits you
> not to board size, but to 200 pins. 
> 
> This technique is also perfect for large component
> layouts like power
> supplies with big electrolytic caps and board
> mounted transformers. I
> like things to be sturdy, and don't feel good about
> using 1 oz. copper
> pads to hold a multi-pound transformer in place.
> Copper eyelets on a
> 1/8" board is fine, though.   Just some thoughts.
> 
> Bob
>  
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "dl5012"
> <dl5012@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Dave,
> > 
> > Yes, I'm using PCB layout software to plan boards
> that I wire by 
> > hand.
> > 
> > There are several techniques to facilitate layout.
>  The first is to 
> > draw a "pretty" schematic.  If you minimize wire
> crossings and 
> > routing lengths; it's easier to translate that
> into good layout.  If 
> > you size the components on the schematic to
> reflect their relative 
> > sizes, that helps too (i.e. if you're using a
> transistor in TO-3, 
> > draw it larger than one in TO-92).
> > 
> > I only started making boards again last year. 
> Before that, I used 
> > PCB layout software to help me do point-to-point
> wiring.  Minimizing 
> > wire crossings will address the rats nest issue
> you mentioned.  Not 
> > to mention that it makes reworking the board
> easier.
> > 
> > Doing the layout gives you the documentation
> you'll need anyway 
> > (component diagram, schematic diagram, wire
> routing).  I also size 
> > the traces depending on current requirements and
> having that 
> > documented makes assembly go faster.
> > 
> > If you're working on amplifiers, minimizing wire
> crossings also 
> > helps you avoid unintentional feedback; which can
> turn amplifiers 
> > into oscillators...
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Dennis
> > 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, David
> Frascone <dave@> 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > I meant for the point-to-point wiring technique?
>  Do you use 
> > layout 
> > > software for that?
> > > 
> > > -Dave
> > > 
> > > dl5012 wrote:
> > > > Hi Dave,
> > > >
> > > > It boils down to component placement to
> minimize wire lengths 
> > and 
> > > > crossings.  I used to do it on paper; now I
> use PCB layout 
> > software.
> > > >
> > > > For simple circuits, I just do the layout and
> routing manually.  
> > For 
> > > > more complex circuits, I might draw a
> schematic so the program 
> > can 
> > > > make routing easier and check connectivity.
> > > >
> > > > In general, I don't use autorouting.
> > > >
> > > > I use Eagle Lite. It's free, but can only
> autoroute small boards.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Dennis
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com

Bob,

Another option is ExpressPCB and ExpressSCH 
<http://www.expresspcb.com/ExpressPCBHtm/Download.htm> .  They're 
free and there are no limits that I know of (unless it's the max 
board size they can manufacture).  No autorouter though.  It's 
intended for you to do your layout and send data to them to be 
manufactured.

They don't seem to understand upward compatibility though.  I 
upgraded to a newer version to take advantage of better printing 
options and found that the new version wouldn't load files created 
with the older version.  For the life of me, I can't figure out why 
anyone wouldn't have upward compatibility.  Not having downward 
compatibility would make more sense...

I found ExpressPCB to be easier to use than Eagle.  But, it had 
better printing features so I stuck with it until I could use it 
well enough for what I needed.  I still think creating components is 
too difficult and the way they organize components is unfathomable...

Regards,
Dennis

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mycroft2152 <mycroft2152@...> 
wrote:

>
> Hi Bpb,
> 
> I used EAGLE LITE for a number of years, but have
> moved over to DipTrace.
> 
> www.diptrace.com
> 
> Diptrace Free has a 250 pin limit but no limit on
> board size. 
> 
> It's a lot easier to learn and use than EAGLE. Making
> new components is a snap.
> 
> TANSTAAFL!
> 
> Myc

It is in the list. It is the 9" Creative GBC at the top of the list. 

Keith
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "wbblair3" <wbblair3@...> 
wrote:
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Keith Applegarth"
> <keith.applegarth@> wrote:
> >
> > Just going to throw in my 2 cents... I picked up a GBC 9in 
laminator 
> > from Office Max for $30. Four passes and the toner is fused to 
the 
> > copper. 
> > 
> > Keith
> 
> That's fantastic performance. Which model GBC is that? If it isn't
> already in the database at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/database
> 
> _please_ spend a minute to enter it there. It's super easy to do 
and,

> honestly, only takes a minute or so out of your time.
> 
> Thanks,
> Bill
>

Many thanks for the tip, I'll try it. The price is right!
I dpwnlaoded it, and agree, it is very easy and intuitive to use. It
took me a long time to realize "cut" in Eagle really meant what most
of us think of as "copy". 

Can you use the free version for commercially produced boards if
needed (for a place like Olimex)? I noticed the free version says it
does not export Gerber files. 

Thanks
Bob

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mycroft2152 <mycroft2152@...> wrote:

>
> Hi Bpb,
> 
> I used EAGLE LITE for a number of years, but have
> moved over to DipTrace.
> 
> www.diptrace.com
> 
> Diptrace Free has a 250 pin limit but no limit on
> board size. 
> 
> It's a lot easier to learn and use than EAGLE. Making
> new components is a snap.
> 
> TANSTAAFL!
> 
> Myc
>

Hi Bob,

I believe that using the free version for commercial
products is allowed. But, I would post the question on
the DipTrace Yahoo Group, which is the official
support site. The author, Stan, responds within 24
hours to all questions, and is very helpful.

The Free version doesn't export gerber's or DXF's.
After all, they do want to stay in business by selling
the full version. :)

TANSTAAFL!

Myc




--- newaag <newaag@...> wrote:

> Many thanks for the tip, I'll try it. The price is
> right!
> I dpwnlaoded it, and agree, it is very easy and
> intuitive to use. It
> took me a long time to realize "cut" in Eagle really
> meant what most
> of us think of as "copy". 
> 
> Can you use the free version for commercially
> produced boards if
> needed (for a place like Olimex)? I noticed the free
> version says it
> does not export Gerber files. 
> 
> Thanks
> Bob
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mycroft2152
> <mycroft2152@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Bpb,
> > 
> > I used EAGLE LITE for a number of years, but have
> > moved over to DipTrace.
> > 
> > www.diptrace.com
> > 
> > Diptrace Free has a 250 pin limit but no limit on
> > board size. 
> > 
> > It's a lot easier to learn and use than EAGLE.
> Making
> > new components is a snap.
> > 
> > TANSTAAFL!
> > 
> > Myc
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com

FWIW-

I mentioned in a recent roto-tool thread that Harbor Freight appeared 
to have a 9" something when I went in there. It didn't have a price 
below it, but judging by their other stuff, I'd guess it was a 
cheapee. I only saw a 4" and a 12" (or 10") on their site. (the guy 
said they often have different offers/products than the site)

-George

I saw a website once where the writer laid out his circuit on a pad per hole 
board, meticulously building each "trace" with buss wire by tacking it to 
each pad as he went. You can have the same effect by running the traces on a 
.1 x .1 grid. Eagle's autorouter will even work for that.

Considering this list's topic, though, I have to agree with Stefan that you 
can make a "proper" board with much less effort once the layout is done. I 
think that's where many of us started. Me personally, I just wanted a way to 
print the wires onto the protoboard. :) And so here we are.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "David Frascone" <dave@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Inexpensive copper clad


>I meant for the point-to-point wiring technique?  Do you use layout
> software for that?
>
> -Dave
>
> dl5012 wrote:
>> Hi Dave,
>>
>> It boils down to component placement to minimize wire lengths and
>> crossings.  I used to do it on paper; now I use PCB layout software.

dl5012(dl5012@...) is reported to have said:
> Hi Bob,
> 
> That works out to almost 10 cents per sq. inch.  Try abcfab on 
> eBay.  You can get single sided single sided 1 oz. 0.062" thick CEM-
> 1 for about 2 cents per sq. inch (including shipping - he uses flat 
> rate priority boxes in the US so shipping doesn't dominate cost).
> 

I placed an order on ebay with abcfab, and paid for it with paypal, on 
Feb 8.  I have also emailed, to the address you gave for Bill, 3 times
and as of today have not received my boards or a reply to my Email's.

I did inform him that you had recommended him (maybe thats the problem 
:-) ).

Would you have a phone number for abcfab?  He is in New Hampshire and I
am in New York, so it seems like I shouls have received 'something' by 
this time.

Oh, the order only came to $24 but the shipping was $13.  That seems a bit
excessive, to me.

Wayne

I purchased 15 4x6" 1/16" FR4 Single sided pcbs on ebay for 9.99 US
plus 8.00 US shipping First Class Postal. 

thats 360Sq inches for .05cents/sqin

He will cut to any size and double sided is the same price

Regards
Dennis Waggoner


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Wayne Topa <linuxone@...> wrote:
>
> dl5012(dl5012@...) is reported to have said:
> > Hi Bob,
> > 
> > That works out to almost 10 cents per sq. inch.  Try abcfab on 
> > eBay.  You can get single sided single sided 1 oz. 0.062" thick CEM-
> > 1 for about 2 cents per sq. inch (including shipping - he uses flat 
> > rate priority boxes in the US so shipping doesn't dominate cost).
> > 
> 
> I placed an order on ebay with abcfab, and paid for it with paypal, on 
> Feb 8.  I have also emailed, to the address you gave for Bill, 3 times
> and as of today have not received my boards or a reply to my Email's.
> 
> I did inform him that you had recommended him (maybe thats the problem 
> :-) ).
> 
> Would you have a phone number for abcfab?  He is in New Hampshire and I
> am in New York, so it seems like I shouls have received 'something' by 
> this time.
> 
> Oh, the order only came to $24 but the shipping was $13.  That seems
a bit

> excessive, to me.
> 
> Wayne
>

Hi Wayne,

I'd be fooling myself if I thought I was more important to abcfab 
than any other Customer, but if you email me (off-board) your ebay 
userid, I'll inquire the next time I send him email.

Was he going to use USPS Priority to ship?  I always ask about the 
flat rate boxes, especially for small heavy items.  I got 50 pounds 
of transformers (from someone else) shipped for $7.70...  The flat 
rate boxes are $8.40 now but he didn't pad it when I bought.  In any 
case, you should negotiate shipping up front to avoid surprises.  
Maybe the material you bought wouldn't fit in one of the flat rate 
boxes...

His prices might be a little better if you buy off eBay.  Check the 
eBay prices first to see what things have sold for to get an idea of 
what you should pay.  I've been getting material from him for around 
2-3 cents/sq inch, maybe less.

Regards,
Dennis

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Wayne Topa <linuxone@...> 
wrote:
> I did inform him that you had recommended him (maybe thats the 
problem 
> :-) ).
> 
> Would you have a phone number for abcfab?  He is in New Hampshire 
and I
> am in New York, so it seems like I shouls have 
received 'something' by 
> this time.
> 
> Oh, the order only came to $24 but the shipping was $13.  That 
seems a bit

> excessive, to me.
> 
> Wayne
>

dl5012(dl5012@...) is reported to have said:
> Hi Wayne,
> 
> I'd be fooling myself if I thought I was more important to abcfab 
> than any other Customer, but if you email me (off-board) your ebay 
> userid, I'll inquire the next time I send him email.

If you emailed him, and he answered, that would really bother me.  I
sent him a question about shipping, before I placed the order, and he 
has never answered that mail and 2 more that I sent after I had ordered.

> 
> Was he going to use USPS Priority to ship?  I always ask about the 
> flat rate boxes, especially for small heavy items.  I got 50 pounds 
> of transformers (from someone else) shipped for $7.70...  The flat 
> rate boxes are $8.40 now but he didn't pad it when I bought.  In any 
> case, you should negotiate shipping up front to avoid surprises.  
> Maybe the material you bought wouldn't fit in one of the flat rate 
> boxes...

I don't remember how he was going to ship.  This was my first try with 
EBay so I just went ahead and ordered.  There were many that said his
shipping was good so I didn't think twice about it.

> 
> His prices might be a little better if you buy off eBay.  Check the 
> eBay prices first to see what things have sold for to get an idea of 
> what you should pay.  I've been getting material from him for around 
> 2-3 cents/sq inch, maybe less.

Thats why I asked if you had a phome # for him.  I saw that you had
ordered from him directly so thought you might have his number.  Even
if his prices are better then others I don't like the fact that he
isn't answering my mail.

Thanks for the tip though.  I will ask questions 'before' I order or bid
in the future even from people that have a good reputation.

Thanks Dennis

Wayne

When I ordered via ebay from him, I screwed up my order. I used the 
Ebay "Contact" interface and he responded within 1 day.  Perhaps the 
email address you are using is his "junk box"?



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Wayne Topa <linuxone@...> 
wrote:
>
> dl5012(dl5012@...) is reported to have said:
> > Hi Wayne,
> > 
> > I'd be fooling myself if I thought I was more important to 
abcfab 
> > than any other Customer, but if you email me (off-board) your 
ebay 
> > userid, I'll inquire the next time I send him email.
> 
> If you emailed him, and he answered, that would really bother me.  
I
> sent him a question about shipping, before I placed the order, and 
he 
> has never answered that mail and 2 more that I sent after I had 
ordered.
> 
> > 
> > Was he going to use USPS Priority to ship?  I always ask about 
the 
> > flat rate boxes, especially for small heavy items.  I got 50 
pounds 
> > of transformers (from someone else) shipped for $7.70...  The 
flat 
> > rate boxes are $8.40 now but he didn't pad it when I bought.  In 
any 
> > case, you should negotiate shipping up front to avoid 
surprises.  
> > Maybe the material you bought wouldn't fit in one of the flat 
rate 
> > boxes...
> 
> I don't remember how he was going to ship.  This was my first try 
with 
> EBay so I just went ahead and ordered.  There were many that said 
his
> shipping was good so I didn't think twice about it.
> 
> > 
> > His prices might be a little better if you buy off eBay.  Check 
the 
> > eBay prices first to see what things have sold for to get an 
idea of 
> > what you should pay.  I've been getting material from him for 
around 
> > 2-3 cents/sq inch, maybe less.
> 
> Thats why I asked if you had a phome # for him.  I saw that you had
> ordered from him directly so thought you might have his number.  
Even
> if his prices are better then others I don't like the fact that he
> isn't answering my mail.
> 
> Thanks for the tip though.  I will ask questions 'before' I order 
or bid

> in the future even from people that have a good reputation.
> 
> Thanks Dennis
> 
> Wayne
>

Hi Wayne.
  This is Bill from ABCFAB.
  If you've emailed me I have not recieved any of them.
  I answer all my email.I check my mail 3 or 4 times a day.
  My email address is abcfab@....
  As far as the shipping goes,you never even waited for a invoice from me  thru ebay.You combined the two items that you bought,1 at $8.50 and the  other at $4.50.That's why you paid $13.00 for shipping.
  If you had waited,I would have sent you a invoice for $9.50 for shipping.$8.50 for the first item and $1.00 for the second item.
  Your material was mailed Friday Feb 10th.Priority Mail.There may be a  small delay because of the storm we all had here in the north east.
  This is a business for me ,not a hobby.
  I really don't appreciate the negitive comments,shipping cost and not returning emails.
  Please let me know when you receive your material.
  Thanks,
  Bill
  P

Wayne Topa <linuxone@...> wrote:          dl5012(dl5012@...) is reported to have said:
  > Hi Wayne,
  > 
  > I'd be fooling myself if I thought I was more important to abcfab 
  > than any other Customer, but if you email me (off-board) your ebay 
  > userid, I'll inquire the next time I send him email.
  
  If you emailed him, and he answered, that would really bother me.  I
  sent him a question about shipping, before I placed the order, and he 
  has never answered that mail and 2 more that I sent after I had ordered.
  
  > 
  > Was he going to use USPS Priority to ship?  I always ask about the 
  > flat rate boxes, especially for small heavy items.  I got 50 pounds 
  > of transformers (from someone else) shipped for $7.70...  The flat 
  > rate boxes are $8.40 now but he didn't pad it when I bought.  In any 
  > case, you should negotiate shipping up front to avoid surprises.  
  > Maybe the material you bought wouldn't fit in one of the flat rate 
  > boxes...
  
  I don't remember how he was going to ship.  This was my first try with 
  EBay so I just went ahead and ordered.  There were many that said his
  shipping was good so I didn't think twice about it.
  
  > 
  > His prices might be a little better if you buy off eBay.  Check the 
  > eBay prices first to see what things have sold for to get an idea of 
  > what you should pay.  I've been getting material from him for around 
  > 2-3 cents/sq inch, maybe less.
  
  Thats why I asked if you had a phome # for him.  I saw that you had
  ordered from him directly so thought you might have his number.  Even
  if his prices are better then others I don't like the fact that he
  isn't answering my mail.
  
  Thanks for the tip though.  I will ask questions 'before' I order or bid
  in the future even from people that have a good reputation.
  
  Thanks Dennis
  
  Wayne
            

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

G'day Bill
Bill here too but in far away Tasmania, Australia.  Do you have a website 
and do you ship internationally?
Bill
----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Bill" <abcfab@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Inexpensive copper clad


> Hi Wayne.
>  This is Bill from ABCFAB.
>  If you've emailed me I have not recieved any of them.
>  I answer all my email.I check my mail 3 or 4 times a day.
>  My email address is abcfab@....
>  As far as the shipping goes,you never even waited for a invoice from me 
> thru ebay.You combined the two items that you bought,1 at $8.50 and the 
> other at $4.50.That's why you paid $13.00 for shipping.
>  If you had waited,I would have sent you a invoice for $9.50 for 
> shipping.$8.50 for the first item and $1.00 for the second item.
>  Your material was mailed Friday Feb 10th.Priority Mail.There may be a 
> small delay because of the storm we all had here in the north east.
>  This is a business for me ,not a hobby.
>  I really don't appreciate the negitive comments,shipping cost and not 
> returning emails.
>  Please let me know when you receive your material.
>  Thanks,
>  Bill
>  P
>
> Wayne Topa <linuxone@...> wrote: 
> dl5012(dl5012@...) is reported to have said:
>  > Hi Wayne,
>  >
>  > I'd be fooling myself if I thought I was more important to abcfab
>  > than any other Customer, but if you email me (off-board) your ebay
>  > userid, I'll inquire the next time I send him email.
>
>  If you emailed him, and he answered, that would really bother me.  I
>  sent him a question about shipping, before I placed the order, and he
>  has never answered that mail and 2 more that I sent after I had ordered.
>
>  >
>  > Was he going to use USPS Priority to ship?  I always ask about the
>  > flat rate boxes, especially for small heavy items.  I got 50 pounds
>  > of transformers (from someone else) shipped for $7.70...  The flat
>  > rate boxes are $8.40 now but he didn't pad it when I bought.  In any
>  > case, you should negotiate shipping up front to avoid surprises.
>  > Maybe the material you bought wouldn't fit in one of the flat rate
>  > boxes...
>
>  I don't remember how he was going to ship.  This was my first try with
>  EBay so I just went ahead and ordered.  There were many that said his
>  shipping was good so I didn't think twice about it.
>
>  >
>  > His prices might be a little better if you buy off eBay.  Check the
>  > eBay prices first to see what things have sold for to get an idea of
>  > what you should pay.  I've been getting material from him for around
>  > 2-3 cents/sq inch, maybe less.
>
>  Thats why I asked if you had a phome # for him.  I saw that you had
>  ordered from him directly so thought you might have his number.  Even
>  if his prices are better then others I don't like the fact that he
>  isn't answering my mail.
>
>  Thanks for the tip though.  I will ask questions 'before' I order or bid
>  in the future even from people that have a good reputation.
>
>  Thanks Dennis
>
>  Wayne
>
>
>    Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and 
> Photos:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>  If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
>
>
>
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>
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> new and used cars.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and 
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
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> Yahoo! Groups Links
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>
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>
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>
>

Hi Bill.
  My website for my PC board shop is,www.abcfabricators.com.
  If you interested in  raw copper clad materials either check my listings on Ebay
  or email me direct at, abcfab@...
  The shipping to Australia won't be cheap.
  Thanks for your interest,
  Bill

Bill Maxwell <wrmaxwell@...> wrote:          G'day Bill
  Bill here too but in far away Tasmania, Australia.  Do you have a website 
  and do you ship internationally?
  Bill

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: "Bill" <abcfab@...>
  To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
  Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 9:38 AM
  Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Inexpensive copper clad
  
  
  > Hi Wayne.
  >  This is Bill from ABCFAB.
  >  If you've emailed me I have not recieved any of them.
  >  I answer all my email.I check my mail 3 or 4 times a day.
  >  My email address is abcfab@....
  >  As far as the shipping goes,you never even waited for a invoice from me 
  > thru ebay.You combined the two items that you bought,1 at $8.50 and the 
  > other at $4.50.That's why you paid $13.00 for shipping.
  >  If you had waited,I would have sent you a invoice for $9.50 for 
  > shipping.$8.50 for the first item and $1.00 for the second item.
  >  Your material was mailed Friday Feb 10th.Priority Mail.There may be a 
  > small delay because of the storm we all had here in the north east.
  >  This is a business for me ,not a hobby.
  >  I really don't appreciate the negitive comments,shipping cost and not 
  > returning emails.
  >  Please let me know when you receive your material.
  >  Thanks,
  >  Bill
  >  P
  >
  > Wayne Topa <linuxone@...> wrote: 
  > dl5012(dl5012@...) is reported to have said:
  >  > Hi Wayne,
  >  >
  >  > I'd be fooling myself if I thought I was more important to abcfab
  >  > than any other Customer, but if you email me (off-board) your ebay
  >  > userid, I'll inquire the next time I send him email.
  >
  >  If you emailed him, and he answered, that would really bother me.  I
  >  sent him a question about shipping, before I placed the order, and he
  >  has never answered that mail and 2 more that I sent after I had ordered.
  >
  >  >
  >  > Was he going to use USPS Priority to ship?  I always ask about the
  >  > flat rate boxes, especially for small heavy items.  I got 50 pounds
  >  > of transformers (from someone else) shipped for $7.70...  The flat
  >  > rate boxes are $8.40 now but he didn't pad it when I bought.  In any
  >  > case, you should negotiate shipping up front to avoid surprises.
  >  > Maybe the material you bought wouldn't fit in one of the flat rate
  >  > boxes...
  >
  >  I don't remember how he was going to ship.  This was my first try with
  >  EBay so I just went ahead and ordered.  There were many that said his
  >  shipping was good so I didn't think twice about it.
  >
  >  >
  >  > His prices might be a little better if you buy off eBay.  Check the
  >  > eBay prices first to see what things have sold for to get an idea of
  >  > what you should pay.  I've been getting material from him for around
  >  > 2-3 cents/sq inch, maybe less.
  >
  >  Thats why I asked if you had a phome # for him.  I saw that you had
  >  ordered from him directly so thought you might have his number.  Even
  >  if his prices are better then others I don't like the fact that he
  >  isn't answering my mail.
  >
  >  Thanks for the tip though.  I will ask questions 'before' I order or bid
  >  in the future even from people that have a good reputation.
  >
  >  Thanks Dennis
  >
  >  Wayne
  >
  >
  >    Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and 
  > Photos:
  >  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
  >
  >  If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
  >  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
  >
  >
  >
  >          SPONSORED LINKS
>                                                         Electrical 
  > engineering degree online 
  > Electrical engineering degree 
  > Printed circuit board 
  > Electrical  engineering                                           Electrical 
  > engineering  course                                           Electrical 
  > engineering graduate school
  >
  > ---------------------------------
  >    YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
  >
  >
  >    Visit your group "Homebrew_PCBs" on the web.
  >
  >    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  > Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
  >
  >    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
  >
  >
  > ---------------------------------
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > ---------------------------------
  > Yahoo! Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, & more on 
  > new and used cars.
  >
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and 
  > Photos:
  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
  >
  > If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
  > Yahoo! Groups Links
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > 
  
            

    Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
  
  If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/  

                      

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    Visit your group "Homebrew_PCBs" on the web.
     
    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
 Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
     
    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.  
  
      
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---------------------------------
Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

lcdpublishing(lcdpublishing@...) is reported to have said:
> When I ordered via ebay from him, I screwed up my order. I used the 
> Ebay "Contact" interface and he responded within 1 day.  Perhaps the 
> email address you are using is his "junk box"?

It's the address Dennis spelled out, for the last two mails.  The
first was the EBay 'Ask the seller a question' box.  They know that
address, I don't.

Hope the guy is alright and this is just a mixup of some kind.

Wayne

Bill(abcfab@...) is reported to have said:
> Hi Wayne.
>   This is Bill from ABCFAB.
>   If you've emailed me I have not recieved any of them.
>   I answer all my email.I check my mail 3 or 4 times a day.
>   My email address is abcfab@....

Thats the address I have been writing to.  I don't know what address
the mail from the ebay site went to.
>   As far as the shipping goes,you never even waited for a invoice from me  thru ebay.You combined the two items that you bought,1 at $8.50 and the  other at $4.50.That's why you paid $13.00 for shipping.

You are right.  I didn't know that is what i had to do.  The page came
up to pay, so I did, but not what upu shoe above.  One item was $6.00
and the other was $18.00 and the shipping was $13.

>   If you had waited,I would have sent you a invoice for $9.50 for shipping.$8.50 for the first item and $1.00 for the second item.
>   Your material was mailed Friday Feb 10th.Priority Mail.There may be a  small delay because of the storm we all had here in the north east.
>   This is a business for me ,not a hobby.

I don't think we are talking about the same order, Bill.

>   I really don't appreciate the negitive comments,shipping cost and not returning emails.

If you didn't recieve my mail, then it was not your fault.  Please
excuse me but not receiving any reply for you was not making me feel
too good.

I am going to put the two mails I still have that I sent to you.
If you can see any reason they should have not gotten them, please let me know.
Both of these mails were sent prior to me questioning this list.  It seem like
that was a good idea, now.  Thanks Dennis

From: Wayne Topa <huntbrittany@...>
Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 13:40:16 -0500
To: abcfab@...
Subject: My Ebay order
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11

Sir

  First, I want to apologize for the request to send me the shipping
  costs on my first order.  As it was my first ever EBay order, I was
  trying to put the $ in the shipping cost box and they were rejecting
  it.  My Bad.

  I was refereed to your offers by Dennis <dl5012@...>, on the
  homebrew_pcbs mailing list, sand I am glad that he did that.  I
  currently have a need for .-32 thick boards due to the laminator I
  am using.  You seem to be the only seller on EBay that has anything
  I can use.

  Thank you.


   Wayne Topa
   Worcester, NY 12197

   EBay user name is Buddy1Susie


-----------2----------------------------------
From: Wayne Topa <huntbrittany@...>
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 11:34:15 -0500
To: Bill <abcfab.com>
Subject: My order of 2/8/06
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11

Sir

  I made a purchase on Feb 8 via EBay of :
  Copper Clad Laminate, FR-4 .030 Thk. Black, 24 pcs  $18.00
  Copper Clad Laminate, FR-4 .031 Thk. Black, 8 shts  $ 6.00

  I also paid for them via paypal on the same day.  The transaction
  Number is 4R138442FK970344W.

  As of today I have not received that order nor have I heard from you
  about it.

  Would you please let me know when the order was/will be shipped.

  As an aside, $13 for shipping seems a but much for a USPS shipment
  from NH to NY.

  Looking forward to your reply

  Respectfully


   Wayne Topa

Bill(abcfab@...) is reported to have said:
> Hi Wayne.
>   This is Bill from ABCFAB.
>   If you've emailed me I have not recieved any of them.
>   I answer all my email.I check my mail 3 or 4 times a day.
>   My email address is abcfab@....
>   As far as the shipping goes,you never even waited for a invoice from me  thru ebay.You combined the two items that you bought,1 at $8.50 and the  other at $4.50.That's why you paid $13.00 for shipping.
>   If you had waited,I would have sent you a invoice for $9.50 for shipping.$8.50 for the first item and $1.00 for the second item.
>   Your material was mailed Friday Feb 10th.Priority Mail.There may be a  small delay because of the storm we all had here in the north east.
>   This is a business for me ,not a hobby.
>   I really don't appreciate the negitive comments,shipping cost and not returning emails.
>   Please let me know when you receive your material.
>   Thanks,
>   Bill
>   P
Sorry, I have to correct the copy of the last mail I sent you.
As you can see I had sent it to abcfab.com and noticed I screwed up
so resent it to your address.

From: Wayne Topa <huntbrittany@...>
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 11:37:22 -0500
To: Bill <abcfab@...>
Subject: My order of 2/8/06]
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11


From: Wayne Topa <huntbrittany@...>
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 11:34:15 -0500
To: Bill <abcfab.com>
Subject: My order of 2/8/06
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.11

Sir

  I made a purchase on Feb 8 via EBay of :
  Copper Clad Laminate, FR-4 .030 Thk. Black, 24 pcs  $18.00
  Copper Clad Laminate, FR-4 .031 Thk. Black, 8 shts  $ 6.00

  I also paid for them via paypal on the same day.  The transaction
  Number is 4R138442FK970344W.

  As of today I have not received that order nor have I heard from you
  about it.

  Would you please let me know when the order was/will be shipped.

  As an aside, $13 for shipping seems a but much for a USPS shipment
  from NH to NY.

  Looking forward to your reply

  Respectfully


   Wayne Topa

Wayne Topa(linuxone@...) is reported to have said:

Following up on this.

The order was received today at noon.  The boards are excellent and
even better then I had expected.  As I was unaware Bill sent an
invoice when he processed the order, I was charged more shipping,
by EBay, then I would have had to pay if I had been invoiced.

As a first time EBay user I followed the instructions on the screen,
order, then pay. Maybe the process is order, don't pay, and wait for a
message from the seller.  I didn't see any mention of that when I
looked through the FAQ's or the item pages of what I was buying though.

I will second Dennis's recommendation of abcfab.  The boards are very
good and, in my mind were a bargain even with the shipping cost I
paid.  Bill offered to make up for the extra shipping on a future
order but I am so satisfied with the boards, I will not take him up on
his offer.

Wayne

Wayne, 

I ordered from abcfab about the same timeframe and received it in
upstate NY a few days later. He uses USPS Priority mail, so it should
arrive in 2 days after shipment to NY.   

I notice a lot of people pad up shipping and lower the item price on
EBay, it save paying ebay commision, as there is no commision on
shipping charges :-)

Bob 

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Wayne Topa <linuxone@...> wrote:
>
> dl5012(dl5012@...) is reported to have said:
> > Hi Bob,
> > 
> > That works out to almost 10 cents per sq. inch.  Try abcfab on 
> > eBay.  You can get single sided single sided 1 oz. 0.062" thick CEM-
> > 1 for about 2 cents per sq. inch (including shipping - he uses flat 
> > rate priority boxes in the US so shipping doesn't dominate cost).
> > 
> 
> I placed an order on ebay with abcfab, and paid for it with paypal, on 
> Feb 8.  I have also emailed, to the address you gave for Bill, 3 times
> and as of today have not received my boards or a reply to my Email's.
> 
> I did inform him that you had recommended him (maybe thats the problem 
> :-) ).
> 
> Would you have a phone number for abcfab?  He is in New Hampshire and I
> am in New York, so it seems like I shouls have received 'something' by 
> this time.
> 
> Oh, the order only came to $24 but the shipping was $13.  That seems
a bit

> excessive, to me.
> 
> Wayne
>

newaag(newaag@...) is reported to have said:
> Wayne, 
> 
> I ordered from abcfab about the same timeframe and received it in
> upstate NY a few days later. He uses USPS Priority mail, so it should
> arrive in 2 days after shipment to NY.   
> 
> I notice a lot of people pad up shipping and lower the item price on
> EBay, it save paying ebay commision, as there is no commision on
> shipping charges :-)
> 
 
Thanks Bob, I got my order today and it was worth the wait!!

BTW, I'm near Cooperstown.

Wayne

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "wbblair3" <wbblair3@...> wrote:
<...>
> 2.  I placed the board in the 390F pre-heated oven and checked it with
> the Raytek MiniTemp to determine when it reached the oven's ambient
> temperature � it took less than two minutes to do so � BTW, to
make it
> easy to pick up, I put the board on a broiling pan so that one side of
> the board stuck out beyond the pan � also, you don't need a Raytek
> MiniTemp to do this right; just put your board in the oven for a few
> minutes to reach the oven's ambient temperature.
<...>
Bill,

thank you for those experiments.

I started yesterday with toner transfer using a hand iron. Pressing
normal or hard, temperature on linnen or even a bit higher, it all had
inconsistent results.

It seemed to me that applying pressure with the tip of the iron made
the toner stick better, but also smeared it out. And since my first
attempt was making a pcb with SMD components the result was not great.
Especially making track go between the pins of a 1206 resistor was a mess.

So I was wondering what the best treatment would be. More heat, lower
pressure? Tried it but the result was uneven. 
Then I started looking around and luckily found this forum with your post.

What I did was apply low pressure with the hand-iron a bit below the
linnen temperature for about a minute, just to make the
paper stick. I did not move the iron. Then placed the PBC in the oven
at 200C for a few minutes. Not having a proper laminator I simply
stroke my thumb in the oven glove over the PCB a few times when I took
it out.

The result is the best I have had sofar. And definately a usable PCB.
Now I only need to scout for better paper. I used Lexmark everyday
glossy inkjet, which seems to work, but sticks too much after bathing.
 For this tiny PCB not a real problem, but too much work for a bigger
version.

Anyway thanks for your insight in the "citical temperature oven thing".

Joop

Laminators or fusers will provide more consistent results.
You are limited in how accurately you can repeat tings with an iron or the  
oven.
Some apparently can do it with good results, some can't.

For me the fuser made it easy.

ST

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 22:12:19 +0200, wimmie262000 <wvh@...> wrote:

>
>
> thank you for those experiments.
>
>
> I started yesterday with toner transfer using a hand iron. Pressing
>
> normal or hard, temperature on linnen or even a bit higher, it all had
>
> inconsistent results.
>
>
> It seemed to me that applying pressure with the tip of the iron made
>
> the toner stick better, but also smeared it out. And since my first
>
> attempt was making a pcb with SMD components the result was not great.
>
> Especially making track go between the pins of a 1206 resistor was a  
> mess.
>
>
> So I was wondering what the best treatment would be. More heat, lower
>
> pressure? Tried it but the result was uneven.
>
> Then I started looking around and luckily found this forum with your  
> post.
>
>
> What I did was apply low pressure with the hand-iron a bit below the
>
> linnen temperature for about a minute, just to make the
>
> paper stick. I did not move the iron. Then placed the PBC in the oven
>
> at 200C for a few minutes. Not having a proper laminator I simply
>
> stroke my thumb in the oven glove over the PCB a few times when I took
>
> it out.
>
>
> The result is the best I have had sofar. And definately a usable PCB.
>
> Now I only need to scout for better paper. I used Lexmark everyday
>
> glossy inkjet, which seems to work, but sticks too much after bathing.
>
>  For this tiny PCB not a real problem, but too much work for a bigger
>
> version.
>
>
> Anyway thanks for your insight in the "citical temperature oven thing".
>
>
> Joop