Homebrew PCBs

I was curious about the stuff sold for removing ferric chloride
stains, so I looked up the Mega Electronics data sheet on the stuff
they sell (its made by Bungard). Its simply oxalic acid crystals and
rubbing with rhubarb leaves should work just as well, they contain
oxalic acid. Its quite poisonous, BTW.

Ill see if I can buy some oxalic acid, it should be cheaper than the
stuff sold by Mega.

Leon

On Tue, 03 Oct 2006 14:42:16 +0200, leon_heller  
<leon.heller@...> wrote:

> I was curious about the stuff sold for removing ferric chloride
> stains, so I looked up the Mega Electronics data sheet on the stuff
> they sell (its made by Bungard). Its simply oxalic acid crystals and
> rubbing with rhubarb leaves should work just as well, they contain
> oxalic acid. Its quite poisonous, BTW.
> Ill see if I can buy some oxalic acid, it should be cheaper than the
> stuff sold by Mega.
> Leon
>


I am told a little hydrochloric acid does the job too, but haven't tried  
myself.
Prior to learning that i tried to remove a FeCl stain on a pair of jeans,  
attempted to do it with by rubbing a chlorine tablet from the pool on it.  
I got a small ferric chloride stain in a huge bleached spot, and one more  
pair of "bad" jeans for dirty work....

I am glad i don't need to deal with the bottled stain from hell any more.

ST

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 7:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Removing ferric chloride stains


> On Tue, 03 Oct 2006 14:42:16 +0200, leon_heller
> <leon.heller@...> wrote:
>
>> I was curious about the stuff sold for removing ferric chloride
>> stains, so I looked up the Mega Electronics data sheet on the stuff
>> they sell (its made by Bungard). Its simply oxalic acid crystals and
>> rubbing with rhubarb leaves should work just as well, they contain
>> oxalic acid. Its quite poisonous, BTW.
>> Ill see if I can buy some oxalic acid, it should be cheaper than the
>> stuff sold by Mega.
>> Leon
>>
>
>
> I am told a little hydrochloric acid does the job too, but haven't tried
> myself.
> Prior to learning that i tried to remove a FeCl stain on a pair of jeans,
> attempted to do it with by rubbing a chlorine tablet from the pool on it.
> I got a small ferric chloride stain in a huge bleached spot, and one more
> pair of "bad" jeans for dirty work....
>
> I am glad i don't need to deal with the bottled stain from hell any more.

I tried HCl once, it doesn't work! I've also tried bleach (chlorine) and 
H2O2 and they didn't work, either. I remember reading in an old book when I 
was a kid that oxalic acid was useful for removing rust stains, this was 
long before PCBs were invented.

Leon

On Tue, 03 Oct 2006 22:23:25 +0200, Leon Heller  
<leon.heller@...> wrote:

>
> I tried HCl once, it doesn't work! I've also tried bleach (chlorine) and
> H2O2 and they didn't work, either. I remember reading in an old book  
> when I
> was a kid that oxalic acid was useful for removing rust stains, this was
> long before PCBs were invented.
> Leon


phosphoric acid is also used to remove rust, maybe it works? Try coca cola.

ST

In article <000801c6e729$c819fea0$0401a8c0@LEON3>,
   Leon Heller <leon.heller@...> wrote:
> I tried HCl once, it doesn't work! I've also tried bleach (chlorine) and
> H2O2 and they didn't work, either. I remember reading in an old book
> when I was a kid that oxalic acid was useful

The commercial FeCl3 stain remover I purchased (RS Components in the uk,
or maybe Farnell) contains Oxalic acid but, to be honest, I don't think
I've ever used it.

In a message dated 10/3/2006 2:33:18 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
stefan_trethan@... writes:

I am  told a little hydrochloric acid does the job too, but haven't tried   
myself.



Don't!  It will remove MORE than the stain!   (fibers, skin, eyes...)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I was curious about the stuff sold for removing ferric chloride
> stains, so I looked up the Mega Electronics data sheet on the stuff
> they sell (its made by Bungard). Its simply oxalic acid crystals and
> rubbing with rhubarb leaves should work just as well, they contain
> oxalic acid. Its quite poisonous, BTW.

use the muriatic acid with hydrogen peroxide and does not remain 
residual, once used it is neutralized with of common bicarbonate

At 9:52 am (PDT) Sun Oct 8, 2006, adriano-sar wrote:
>At 5:44 am (PDT) Tue Oct 3, 2006 leon_heller wrote:
> > I was curious about the stuff sold for removing ferric chloride
> > stains...oxalic acid crystals and  rubbing with rhubarb leaves
> > should work just as well, they contain oxalic acid.
> > Its quite poisonous, BTW.
>
>use the muriatic acid with hydrogen peroxide and does not remain
>residual, once used it is neutralized with of common bicarbonate

Fisio, if you look back in the message archive you will see that
this thread is for people who already have ferric stains and would
like to be rid of them.

They have already been advised that there are cleaner etchants.

If you really mean to recommend HCl+HOOH as a stain remover,
isn't this just a little bit aggressive for the task? (It will attack
natural fibres and most common metals.)

I would endorse the use of oxalic acid.

Apart from its toxicity by ingestion, it is a relatively harmless
fruit acid. As such, it is easily mistaken for ordinary culinary
ingredients such as citric acid or cream of tartar [potassium
hydrogen tartrate]. If you buy in bulk make sure it is labelled
clearly and not stored near foodstuffs.

It is the active ingredient in the "Stain Devil" rust stain remover,
which comes in safety packaging.

The toxicity is because calcium oxalate is not very soluble.
Once the oxalic acid has been absorbed from the gut it
combines with calcium ions in the blood to form a precipitate
which clogs the kidneys, leading to kidney failure. Hence
the occasional poisonings of the ignorant or starving by
rhubarb leaves. The stems contain much less oxalic
acid and are delicious and safe to eat. Even so, I prefer
to eat mine with evaporated milk, just to be sure the residual
oxalic acid is bound in my gut rather than my bloodstream.

As a stain remover, rhubarb leaves seem a good way of
replacing ferric stains with chlorophyll stains ;-)
(NB: chlorophyll dissolves in alcohol or bio-detergents.)

Oxalic acid acts as a mild reducing agent and converts the
brown ferric ion to pale green ferrous. I'm guessing the
ferrous ion is more water-soluble than ferric.

Other common chemicals which _might_ work are:-
* citric acid [lemon juice], (nowadays used in preference to chromic
acid to pickle new stainless steel to remove surface free iron);
* cream of tartar + glucose, (the kind of slow reducing agent used
to deposit silver mirrors); or
* acetic acid [vinegar], (acetates are often very soluble).
None is specially toxic and they might already be in your kitchen.

Perhaps Mycroft would care to comment on these suggestions?


Regards, LenW

There is news media story current here in Australia that hydrogen peroxide 
is about to be, or has been, placed on the controlled chemicals list because 
of its potential in terrorist bomb manufacture.  This has the hair-dressing 
industry in a quandry.  Maybe the pcb homebrewer should join that debate?

Bill
----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Len Warner" <yahoo@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 10:30 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re:Removing ferric chloride stains


> At 9:52 am (PDT) Sun Oct 8, 2006, adriano-sar wrote:
>>At 5:44 am (PDT) Tue Oct 3, 2006 leon_heller wrote:
>> > I was curious about the stuff sold for removing ferric chloride
>> > stains...oxalic acid crystals and  rubbing with rhubarb leaves
>> > should work just as well, they contain oxalic acid.
>> > Its quite poisonous, BTW.
>>
>>use the muriatic acid with hydrogen peroxide and does not remain
>>residual, once used it is neutralized with of common bicarbonate
>
> Fisio, if you look back in the message archive you will see that
> this thread is for people who already have ferric stains and would
> like to be rid of them.
>
> They have already been advised that there are cleaner etchants.
>
> If you really mean to recommend HCl+HOOH as a stain remover,
> isn't this just a little bit aggressive for the task? (It will attack
> natural fibres and most common metals.)
>
> I would endorse the use of oxalic acid.
>
> Apart from its toxicity by ingestion, it is a relatively harmless
> fruit acid. As such, it is easily mistaken for ordinary culinary
> ingredients such as citric acid or cream of tartar [potassium
> hydrogen tartrate]. If you buy in bulk make sure it is labelled
> clearly and not stored near foodstuffs.
>
> It is the active ingredient in the "Stain Devil" rust stain remover,
> which comes in safety packaging.
>
> The toxicity is because calcium oxalate is not very soluble.
> Once the oxalic acid has been absorbed from the gut it
> combines with calcium ions in the blood to form a precipitate
> which clogs the kidneys, leading to kidney failure. Hence
> the occasional poisonings of the ignorant or starving by
> rhubarb leaves. The stems contain much less oxalic
> acid and are delicious and safe to eat. Even so, I prefer
> to eat mine with evaporated milk, just to be sure the residual
> oxalic acid is bound in my gut rather than my bloodstream.
>
> As a stain remover, rhubarb leaves seem a good way of
> replacing ferric stains with chlorophyll stains ;-)
> (NB: chlorophyll dissolves in alcohol or bio-detergents.)
>
> Oxalic acid acts as a mild reducing agent and converts the
> brown ferric ion to pale green ferrous. I'm guessing the
> ferrous ion is more water-soluble than ferric.
>
> Other common chemicals which _might_ work are:-
> * citric acid [lemon juice], (nowadays used in preference to chromic
> acid to pickle new stainless steel to remove surface free iron);
> * cream of tartar + glucose, (the kind of slow reducing agent used
> to deposit silver mirrors); or
> * acetic acid [vinegar], (acetates are often very soluble).
> None is specially toxic and they might already be in your kitchen.
>
> Perhaps Mycroft would care to comment on these suggestions?
>
>
> Regards, LenW
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and 
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 02:41:48 +0200, Bill Maxwell <wrmaxwell@...>  
wrote:

> There is news media story current here in Australia that hydrogen  
> peroxide
> is about to be, or has been, placed on the controlled chemicals list  
> because
> of its potential in terrorist bomb manufacture.  This has the  
> hair-dressing
> industry in a quandry.  Maybe the pcb homebrewer should join that debate?
> Bill


I was voicing such fears right after London, i hope they don't go through  
with it or make it too difficult.

ST

Stefan Trethan wrote:
[ banning of peroxide ]
> I was voicing such fears right after London, i hope they don't go through  
> with it or make it too difficult.

They've already done it with acetone (or at least the stuff that isn't 
adulterated with perfume, vitamin XYZ and whatnot). Last time I tried to buy 
straight acetone, I ended up explaining exactly why I wanted it (removing 
toner and photoresist from PCBs, and stripping enamel paint). I still ended up 
leaving empty-handed ("you need Government authorisation to buy that, have you 
tried nail varnish remover?"). Even sodium carbonate (used to neutralise FeCl 
etchant) is a pig to get around here.

Some days I think the Government are doing all they can to stifle innovation 
in this country. If they keep going the way they are, we're going to have a 
nation with no scientists ("too dangerous"), no investment from sci-tech 
companies ("ooo, their government don't like our kind, let's open a lab in 
Berlin instead of London") and an economy based on selling houses and land to 
developers for the highest profit...

</political-rant>

-- 
Phil.                         |  (\_/)  This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny
ygroups@...         | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain
http://www.philpem.me.uk/     | (")_(") world domination.

On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 18:04:32 +0200, Philip Pemberton  
<ygroups@...> wrote:

>
> They've already done it with acetone (or at least the stuff that isn't
> adulterated with perfume, vitamin XYZ and whatnot). Last time I tried to  
> buy
> straight acetone, I ended up explaining exactly why I wanted it (removing
> toner and photoresist from PCBs, and stripping enamel paint). I still  
> ended up
> leaving empty-handed ("you need Government authorisation to buy that,  
> have you
> tried nail varnish remover?"). Even sodium carbonate (used to neutralise  
> FeCl
> etchant) is a pig to get around here.
> Some days I think the Government are doing all they can to stifle  
> innovation
> in this country. If they keep going the way they are, we're going to  
> have a
> nation with no scientists ("too dangerous"), no investment from sci-tech
> companies ("ooo, their government don't like our kind, let's open a lab  
> in
> Berlin instead of London") and an economy based on selling houses and  
> land to
> developers for the highest profit...
> </political-rant>


The sad thing is, none of the restrictions is likely to make much  
difference to terrorists, they'll get it anyway.
I'm pretty sure i'll still get those things "no questions asked", but  
maybe some years down the road...

Maybe you can use lye instead of the sodium carbonate?

What does it take to get the required authorisation? Would be interesting  
finding out...
But even if it is not difficult, laws like that will kill of the remaining  
chemicals shops (which are only just slightly more commonplace than  
rockinghorse sh** anyway).

ST

Stefan Trethan wrote:
> The sad thing is, none of the restrictions is likely to make much  
> difference to terrorists, they'll get it anyway.

Yep. Probably by getting a ticket on the Dover-to-Calais ferry, picking up a 
few bottles of whatever they want from the continent, then coming back on the 
ferry with the stuff hidden under a car seat...

> Maybe you can use lye instead of the sodium carbonate?

Lye? As in sodium hydroxide, the stuff you use to develop PCB photoresist?

Might work, but the real attraction of carbonate is that it's pretty much 
harmless (it's used as a food additive, and sodium bicarbonate, aka 
bicarbonate of soda, is a derivative of carbonate) and produces less froth, 
foam and CO2 than bicarbonate of soda. Plus carbonate is cheaper and better 
for dealing with FeCl spills - it's a powder so it'll soak up FeCl and 
neutralise it at the same time.

IIRC, the trick is to add the carbonate until the solution is slightly 
alkaline, then pour the resulting mess through a coffee filter to catch the 
sludge. Pour the liquid away (it's just water and sodium salts IIRC), and 
dispose of the filter 'in accordance with local laws' so to speak - that ends 
up being covered in fairly pure iron and copper. If you wanted, you could 
(theoretically) split that apart and make up a solid copper/iron lump over 
time, then sell it to a scrap dealer once you've got enough (note how high 
copper prices are these days).

> What does it take to get the required authorisation? Would be interesting  
> finding out...

"I don't know" was the answer I got...

I've just been searching about, seems a few local decorator's supply shops 
still sell the stuff. Guess I'll be spending this Saturday driving around 
looking for somewhere that'll sell me some...

Oh look, \ufffd7 +VAT and P&P (\ufffd8 +VAT) for five litres: 
<http://www.cfsnet.co.uk/acatalog/CFS_Catalogue__Acetone_7.html>... Saves a 
drive round town I guess.

*expects imminent arrival of the Thought Police and Black Helicopter Squad*

> But even if it is not difficult, laws like that will kill of the remaining  
> chemicals shops (which are only just slightly more commonplace than  
> rockinghorse sh** anyway).

I found a neat article on aluminium anodising 
(<http://astro.neutral.org/anodise.shtml>) that mentioned a site called 
TheChemicalShop.com (<http://www.thechemicalshop.com/>, but mute your speakers 
first, at least until you navigate away from the main page - there's a Flash 
video on there, complete with incredibly annoying sound effects and recorded 
speech). Looks like they sell pretty much anything and everything the amateur 
scientist could want, for a price. Ebay seems to be a pretty good source too, 
despite their "NO CHEMICALS!" policy... LOL.

I'll have to dig out my copy of 'Electronic Prototype Construction' (the 
'Kasten book') and read up on CuCl etching baths. Actually, ISTR that book has 
some really 'interesting' (read: dangerous) chemistry listed. Stuff like gold 
plating with cyanide compounds...

*looks*

Oh, here it is. Page 244. Potassium gold cyanide and citric acid...

And more neat stuff - screen printing the component overlay print...
A little hint from page 310 - if you have to solder an IC socket pin on both 
the top and bottom side, use some solder paste to solder the topside, then 
solder the bottom side in the normal way (i.e. solder wire)

Shame it doesn't really cover front panel lettering. So far the only way I've 
found to put legends on black panels is a Letraset rubdown transfer sheet and 
a can of Humbrol spray-on clear-coat. White and aluminium panels are easy - an 
inkjet acetate and a can of 3M Photo-Mount usually works for me. It's the 
black ones that are a pain, and I've just bought a box full of black 'power 
supply' cases (though they're just the right size for USB peripherals and such)...

-- 
Phil.                         |  (\_/)  This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny
ygroups@...         | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain
http://www.philpem.me.uk/     | (")_(") world domination.

On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 00:07:24 +0200, Philip Pemberton  
<ygroups@...> wrote:

>
> Lye? As in sodium hydroxide, the stuff you use to develop PCB  
> photoresist?
> Might work, but the real attraction of carbonate is that it's pretty much
> harmless (it's used as a food additive, and sodium bicarbonate, aka
> bicarbonate of soda, is a derivative of carbonate) and produces less  
> froth,
> foam and CO2 than bicarbonate of soda. Plus carbonate is cheaper and  
> better
> for dealing with FeCl spills - it's a powder so it'll soak up FeCl and
> neutralise it at the same time.
> IIRC, the trick is to add the carbonate until the solution is slightly
> alkaline, then pour the resulting mess through a coffee filter to catch  
> the
> sludge. Pour the liquid away (it's just water and sodium salts IIRC), and
> dispose of the filter 'in accordance with local laws' so to speak - that  
> ends
> up being covered in fairly pure iron and copper. If you wanted, you could
> (theoretically) split that apart and make up a solid copper/iron lump  
> over
> time, then sell it to a scrap dealer once you've got enough (note how  
> high
> copper prices are these days).


Ok, what about lime (from the builders yard)?

ST

Are you guys serious about not being able to buy Acetone and other 
such solvents?

If so, what the heck is the goverment trying to prevent?  

Really seems as though goverments around the world are doing much of 
the same stupid things -

Creating "Feel good" laws which solve nothing

Making it illegal to buy "Stuff" to do illegal things. Isn't what 
the new law doing is to prevent something from illegal happening? 

For some reason, I just can't believe that someone who is willing to 
strap bombs on themselves and is willing to blow themselves up in 
the name of (insert cause here) is actually going to be detered by 
breaking a law that limits the sale of some such product.  If these 
people have no value for life, including their own, breaking a 
simple law sure as heck isn't a deterant!

GRRRRRRRRRRR.

Sorry for the rant.

Chris

On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 14:26:16 +0200, lcdpublishing  
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

>
> For some reason, I just can't believe that someone who is willing to
> strap bombs on themselves and is willing to blow themselves up in
> the name of (insert cause here) is actually going to be detered by
> breaking a law that limits the sale of some such product.  If these
> people have no value for life, including their own, breaking a
> simple law sure as heck isn't a deterant!


The thought is the stuff should be harder to get. Nobody cares about  
breaking the law, but if you can't just go to the next store and buy  
whatever you need for your bomb it is that tiny little bit harder to make  
it.
Of course i agree it is a totally ineffective measure because someone  
prepared to blow himself up will find a (only slightly more complicated)  
way to get what he needs. So breaking the law is not meant to be the  
barrier, lack of availability is.

Gouvernments need to be seen doing something, looking at how things only  
get worse and worse. That's just one more stupid experiment that luckily  
is only annoying, not outright dangerous like some of the things they are  
doing.

ST

lcdpublishing wrote:
> Are you guys serious about not being able to buy Acetone and other 
> such solvents?

Yep.
Officially you're not 'supposed' to sell Isopropyl Alcohol in the UK as it's 
used for drug production (not sure which drug, and I don't really care 
either). Thankfully Maplin and Farnell are still stocking it. Once again, the 
'keep it off the high street' law has no real effect and if they banned the 
stuff outright they'd annoy pretty much every industrial manufacturer and 
printing shop in the country.

> If so, what the heck is the goverment trying to prevent?  

With IPA? Drugs manufacture. Acetone? People making TATP bombs.

> Creating "Feel good" laws which solve nothing

Go read 'Beyond Fear' by Bruce Schneier. It's a great book that covers why 
these laws are created, and why they don't work.

> Making it illegal to buy "Stuff" to do illegal things. Isn't what 
> the new law doing is to prevent something from illegal happening? 

All the Terrorism Act does is allow the police to do an unwarranted 
stop-and-search *and* add it to your criminal record, even if they find nothing.

> For some reason, I just can't believe that someone who is willing to 
> strap bombs on themselves and is willing to blow themselves up in 
> the name of (insert cause here) is actually going to be detered by 
> breaking a law that limits the sale of some such product.  If these 
> people have no value for life, including their own, breaking a 
> simple law sure as heck isn't a deterant!

Too true...

-- 
Phil.                         |  (\_/)  This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny
ygroups@...         | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain
http://www.philpem.me.uk/     | (")_(") world domination.

Your right about it not stopping them.  Those idiots that decided to 
fly some planes into the buildings 5 years ago sure didn't stop and 
think, gee, I don't know how to fly a plane so the plan won't work.  
Rather, they spent years planning and training how to do it, then 
executed the plan.  Stopping the sale of "Pilot Training" to law 
abiding people wouldn't have stopped them from their goals.

GRRRRRRRRRRRr, it's frustrating!


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 14:26:16 +0200, lcdpublishing  
> <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
> 
> >
> > For some reason, I just can't believe that someone who is 
willing to
> > strap bombs on themselves and is willing to blow themselves up in
> > the name of (insert cause here) is actually going to be detered 
by
> > breaking a law that limits the sale of some such product.  If 
these
> > people have no value for life, including their own, breaking a
> > simple law sure as heck isn't a deterant!
> 
> 
> The thought is the stuff should be harder to get. Nobody cares 
about  
> breaking the law, but if you can't just go to the next store and 
buy  
> whatever you need for your bomb it is that tiny little bit harder 
to make  
> it.
> Of course i agree it is a totally ineffective measure because 
someone  
> prepared to blow himself up will find a (only slightly more 
complicated)  
> way to get what he needs. So breaking the law is not meant to be 
the  
> barrier, lack of availability is.
> 
> Gouvernments need to be seen doing something, looking at how 
things only  
> get worse and worse. That's just one more stupid experiment that 
luckily  
> is only annoying, not outright dangerous like some of the things 
they are  

> doing.
> 
> ST
>

On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 16:41:05 +0200, lcdpublishing  
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

>  Stopping the sale of "Pilot Training" to law
> abiding people wouldn't have stopped them from their goals.

No it wouldn't, but they would have had to find another way to learn to  
fly planes.
Their strange behaviour while getting that training almost got them caught  
(sadly only _almost_). A tiny thing here (say a checkup by authorities or  
a psychological test or simply more attention by the three letter club in  
charge) might very well have had a chance to prevent it all.

We will have to give up some conveniences in all this mess, everyone  
understands that, but the key is to introduce reasonable measures that  
will have some decent effect/inconvenience ratio.
For example, it would IMO be acceptable if they asked what you were going  
to do, and required some ID before selling certain chemicals. I have no  
problem with that. I don't think it would be very useful, but if they  
think it helps it is the least i can do.

What i _don't_ consider reasonable is stopping the sale of perfectly  
useful things by making impractical procedures to either buy or sell.  
That's just stupid, because then we could just stop doing anything at all  
so we don't get hurt.


> GRRRRRRRRRRRr, it's frustrating!

Indeed it is. But there's nothing we can do about this, _especially_ in  
this forum.
Since i doubt we can gain world domination to try out our ideas before  
Steve notices i suggest we stop this now. ;-)

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

> Since i doubt we can gain world domination to try out our ideas before  
> Steve notices i suggest we stop this now. ;-)

World domination? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Mad_Scientist

Steve Greenfield

In article <452D1610.1090704@...>,
   Philip Pemberton <ygroups@...> wrote:
>  Even sodium carbonate (used to neutralise FeCl etchant) is a pig to
> get around here.

Funny, I picked up some "Washing Soda" in one of our supermarkets the
other day - can't remember which but Tesco or ASDA.

Stuart