Homebrew PCBs

I should have asked before buying the ^^^^ I have to take back
tomorro, but what laminators are you fellow uk'ers using?

And what did I buy? the asda lm420h, its not melting the toner its so hot.
(probably laminates very well though!)


-- 

Lez

Side note: I've found that my laminator (GBC 9") won't work in my
office.  After an hour it's still not hot, just warm.  I plug it in in
the kitchen, it heats up in minutes.  Haven't taken the time to figure
out why yet.  So, try some other outlet on a different circuit just to
see if that's the problem.

The outlet works fine for everything else, of course.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:
>
> 
> Side note: I've found that my laminator (GBC 9") won't work in my
> office.  After an hour it's still not hot, just warm.  I plug it in in
> the kitchen, it heats up in minutes.  Haven't taken the time to figure
> out why yet.  So, try some other outlet on a different circuit just to
> see if that's the problem.
> 
> The outlet works fine for everything else, of course.
>

Yes, I had that issue too. Apparently too many things share the same
circuit. I returned one as defective before knowing this. Try a
different outlet - the Creative one, at least, has a yellow heat
sensitive plastic on it that changes to READY when it's hot enough.

"fenrir_co" <fenrir@...> writes:
> Yes, I had that issue too. Apparently too many things share the same
> circuit.

In my case, the "bad" outlet is the only outlet on a dedicated 20 amp
circuit, and the "good" outlet is the one with lots of stuff on it.

Hi Lez,
        I hve just bought a Texet LM-251 laminator from Maplin, it 
has 2 heat settings and produces good results with photo-glossy paper 
that I already had.
                      Barry


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:
>
> I should have asked before buying the ^^^^ I have to take back
> tomorro, but what laminators are you fellow uk'ers using?
> 
> And what did I buy? the asda lm420h, its not melting the toner its 
so hot.

> (probably laminates very well though!)
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Lez
>

On 30 Jan 2007 16:55:21 -0500, DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  Side note: I've found that my laminator (GBC 9") won't work in my
>  office.  After an hour it's still not hot, just warm.  I plug it in in
>  the kitchen, it heats up in minutes.  Haven't taken the time to figure
>  out why yet.  So, try some other outlet on a different circuit just to
>  see if that's the problem.

Yup sounds like a plug/socket bad connection issue, try using a small
4 way extension etc to power it from that socket, I have a 60ft 3way
extension cable I use when drilling in the garden etc, the drill only
works in 2 of the sockets, but my grinder works in all 3

>
>  The outlet works fine for everything else, of course.
>                    



-- 

Lez

On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 10:30:47 +0100, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:

>>  Side note: I've found that my laminator (GBC 9") won't work in my
>>  office.  After an hour it's still not hot, just warm.  I plug it in in
>>  the kitchen, it heats up in minutes.  Haven't taken the time to figure
>>  out why yet.  So, try some other outlet on a different circuit just to
>>  see if that's the problem.

> Yup sounds like a plug/socket bad connection issue, try using a small
> 4 way extension etc to power it from that socket, I have a 60ft 3way
> extension cable I use when drilling in the garden etc, the drill only
> works in 2 of the sockets, but my grinder works in all 3

One would think that for a person wanting to make a PCB it would seem  
trivial to fix any such mains power issues, no?
I mean this is hardly rocket science, i don't think you would have to  
resort to housewive methods of trying different sockets....

I would be seriously concerned if my laminator only got half-warm on some  
outlets, and would want to fix the problem immediately. A dramatic drop in  
voltage has to be dropped somewhere - and a voltage drop means power  
dissipation, and power dissipation means heat, and heat means fire and  
smoke and burnt down house and worst of all, your layout will probably be  
lost too. Better go and fix the fault now.


ST

On 31/01/07, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 10:30:47 +0100, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:
>
> >>  Side note: I've found that my laminator (GBC 9") won't work in my
> >>  office.  After an hour it's still not hot, just warm.  I plug it in in
> >>  the kitchen, it heats up in minutes.  Haven't taken the time to figure
> >>  out why yet.  So, try some other outlet on a different circuit just to
> >>  see if that's the problem.
>
> > Yup sounds like a plug/socket bad connection issue, try using a small
> > 4 way extension etc to power it from that socket, I have a 60ft 3way
> > extension cable I use when drilling in the garden etc, the drill only
> > works in 2 of the sockets, but my grinder works in all 3
>
> One would think that for a person wanting to make a PCB it would seem
> trivial to fix any such mains power issues, no?
> I mean this is hardly rocket science, i don't think you would have to
> resort to housewive methods of trying different sockets....
>



Its the uk health and safety boffins ST, then have shortened the
length of the conducting part of the pin so it 'only' just works if
all the way in, bad injection moulding, thick air etc can stop some
working now........

One wonders if this could start fires on heavy demand appliances with
such a small contact area in some situations, but hey, would not want
to risk a shock taking a plug from a socket with no protection would
we, at least a fire you _can_ protect yourself from with smoke
detectors and a fire extinguisher....

UK safety, best in the world..............

I heard a rumour that umbrella's will be compulsory because of the
acid rain danger...

"Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...> writes:
> One would think that for a person wanting to make a PCB it would
> seem trivial to fix any such mains power issues, no?

It would be, I just haven't gotten around to it yet.

Well I decided to give the Asda one another go with 'better paper' so
went to Argos for a pack of 'hp everyday photo paper, semi
glossy'...........

(argos 676/5868 - hp q2510a)

I like the paper, but it still will not stick to the board, paper or
toner, I just don't think the laminator is hot enough.

I did get a sheet stuck in the laser, so I got it out 'un fused' and
being careful passed that through, that worked better than expected
but you could not try that every time.

Barry,

I saw your post and as I have up til now, unly used my wife's iron, I
thought I would get one  (well, at least send her out to get one !)

I tried it using the blue Press-n-peel first off, but it doesn't seem
to be hot enough to melt the toner from my laser ..  (an HP 1010 with
a remanufactured cartridge)

I only got about 5% or less transfer even after passing it through
half a dozen times. (leading me to believe it wasn't hot enough)

I investigated the workings and it uses three sealed 10A temperature
switchs at  at 95   110  and  145 degrees C...  

To raise the temperature, I found a virtually identical switch at
Rapid Electronics that should switch at 160 degrees C  (but that is as
high as that particular range goes)I am quite happy to order one and
see what happens...  but

Has anyone actually measured the temperature that the laminator needs
to run at to melt common toners ?

Do we think 160 C  (320 F)  is hot enough ?

Chris  



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Barry Hitchen"
<barry.hitchen@...> wrote:

>
>   Hi Lez,
>         I hve just bought a Texet LM-251 laminator from Maplin, it 
> has 2 heat settings and produces good results with photo-glossy paper 
> that I already had.
>                       Barry
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Lez <lez.briddon@> wrote:
> >
> > I should have asked before buying the ^^^^ I have to take back
> > tomorro, but what laminators are you fellow uk'ers using?
> > 
> > And what did I buy? the asda lm420h, its not melting the toner its 
> so hot.
> > (probably laminates very well though!)
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > 
> > Lez
> >
>

>
>  I only got about 5% or less transfer even after passing it through
>  half a dozen times. (leading me to believe it wasn't hot enough)
>
>  I investigated the workings and it uses three sealed 10A temperature
>  switchs at  at 95   110  and  145 degrees C...

Wow 3 settings, must be an expensive one, mine has on and off.............


Lez

On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 18:30:54 +0100, Chris Horne <chris@...> wrote:

> To raise the temperature, I found a virtually identical switch at
> Rapid Electronics that should switch at 160 degrees C  (but that is as
> high as that particular range goes)I am quite happy to order one and
> see what happens...  but
> Has anyone actually measured the temperature that the laminator needs
> to run at to melt common toners ?
> Do we think 160 C  (320 F)  is hot enough ?
> Chris


160C is on the low end of the ideal temperature range, i would say. My  
fuser unit has a sticker "160C" but i think i actually have it adjusted to  
180C. But it should melt the toner fine at 160C.
What i fear more is that you may overheat components that are not meant to  
take the temperature.

I do not usually comment much on the laminator discussions, but since i am  
posting already: If you are not completely inept at mechanical things it  
would seem far easier to modify a fuser unit. The electronics are trivial,  
and you can save much mechanical hassle by using a ready-made geared  
motor, e.g. a grill motor. Seems a bit ridiculous all that effort for a  
flimsy plastic fuser, to get the thickness through and get the heat up,  
when you still end up with a less-than-ideal solution that needs more than  
one pass to get the job done. But hey, suit yourself.

ST

I'm replying to my own post here..   but If anyone else has some
temperatures.. please add them..

I just used a pyrometer to measure the actual temperature I have the
iron set to when hand ironing the blue press-n-peel (which I have done
hundereds of times)

The temperature averages 190 C  plus or minus about 20  so maybe there
is some way to go..

> Has anyone actually measured the temperature that the laminator needs
> to run at to melt common toners ?
> 
> Do we think 160 C  (320 F)  is hot enough ?
> 
> Chris  
> 
>

Lez <lez.briddon@...> writes:
> Wow 3 settings, must be an expensive one, mine has on and off.............

Mine only has on :-(

On 31 Jan 2007 13:17:04 -0500, DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  Lez <lez.briddon@...> writes:
>  > Wow 3 settings, must be an expensive one, mine has on and off.............
>
>  Mine only has on :-(
>

Lol we have a tv like that, its 6 years old and possibly done 5 years
in the on position

Any how, temps, remove thermostat thing and fit 2 thicknesses of
normal copier paper  between it and where it was, mines nice and
toasty now!

My temp thingys were 165, 155 and 95, the 165 was between the two
elements so I presume was the overheat.


Lez

> Seems a bit ridiculous all that effort for a  
> flimsy plastic fuser, to get the thickness through and get the heat
up,  
> when you still end up with a less-than-ideal solution that needs
more than  
> one pass to get the job done. But hey, suit yourself.
> 
> ST
>


Stefan...   did you get out of the grumpy side of the bed this morning ?


I have all the machinery needed to make one from scratch, but I prefer
to spend my time making tools that I can't buy mostly ready built.

and if an off the shelf unit will do the job, then I@m up for it ...

re the Texet LM-251 
It's not as bad as it sounds,

the laminator drives standard board and tranfer through nicely without
any modification..

Th drive is a neat little synchronous motor with a quick release for jams.

The heating component consists of aluminium extrusions with internal
elements and silicon rollers with a steel shafts. The rollers are the
same colour and look very similar to the ones in my Laser printer.

The case is a simple screw together unit, no nasty plastic tabs to
break off.. !

I will try 160 and see what happens..

If all esle fails, we will have a laminator to use to laminate posters
for lamp posts if the cat gets lost !

Chris

well I go back on what I said about modifying with a few thicknesses of
paper to the thermostats, its hotter from cold, due to thermal lag, so the
first pass s hot, then the others are health and safety warm............


Oh well back to drawing board, if I had one


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 19:52:42 +0100, Chris Horne <chris@...> wrote:

> I have all the machinery needed to make one from scratch, but I prefer
> to spend my time making tools that I can't buy mostly ready built.


That's just it, doesn't seem like people are buying ready-made solutions,  
sounds like lotsa hacking for mediocre results.
If i have to make something i prefer to put in little work using good  
parts to get a good solution, rather than much work with bad parts for the  
same result, especially if the parts cost the same or the better ones are  
actually cheaper. But as i said, suit yourself.

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 19:52:42 +0100, Chris Horne <chris@...> wrote:
> 
> > I have all the machinery needed to make one from scratch, but I prefer
> > to spend my time making tools that I can't buy mostly ready built.
> 
> 
> That's just it, doesn't seem like people are buying ready-made
solutions,  
> sounds like lotsa hacking for mediocre results.
> If i have to make something i prefer to put in little work using good  
> parts to get a good solution, rather than much work with bad parts
for the  
> same result, especially if the parts cost the same or the better
ones are  
> actually cheaper. But as i said, suit yourself.
> 
> ST
>


He he ...

I decided to go with an old second hand laminator from ebay...
it has an adjustable temperature control and what looks like a nice
metal case..  shouldn't be too hard to reduce the feed speed if required..

I'm sure if it doesn't work out, the case is big enough to fit a laser
fuser in..

The problem for me is I need a reliable, repeatable way of producing
fair quantities (several square feet a week) of simple boards..

I was getting RSI from all the ironing :-) ..  

Although I am playing with direct injet printing, I am still not there
yet..

I will try and get a 180 C switch for the TEXET and try it out.. for
quality AND safety..
  a 15 minute hack might be worth knowing for others...

I imagine most off-the-shelf cheap laminators will be around the 150 C..  

Chris

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:
>
> 
> Lez <lez.briddon@...> writes:
> > Wow 3 settings, must be an expensive one, mine has on and
off.............
> 
> Mine only has on :-(
>

On
ON

You lucky gastard.  When I was a lad our laminators only had an off
switch.  And we felt lucky.

"Andrew" <andrewm1973@...> writes:
> You lucky gastard.  When I was a lad our laminators only had an off
> switch.  And we felt lucky.

Switch?  Who said anything about a switch?  I have to unplug it!
Switches.  Boy, kids sure are lazy these days.  Next thing you know,
they'll want someone to fetch the remote control for them.

Oh wait, they already do.

Chris,
      I only started to use this method last week, when I ran out 
of photo resist board. I have made about ten boards now with 2 
failures which was due to the paper. I tried all the photo glossy
paper I had and the best results were with Imation and Verbatim
which I had picked up at sales at local stores.
                                     Barry





--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Horne" <chris@...> wrote:
>
> Barry,
> 
> I saw your post and as I have up til now, unly used my wife's iron, 
I
> thought I would get one  (well, at least send her out to get one !)
> 
> I tried it using the blue Press-n-peel first off, but it doesn't 
seem
> to be hot enough to melt the toner from my laser ..  (an HP 1010 
with
> a remanufactured cartridge)
> 
> I only got about 5% or less transfer even after passing it through
> half a dozen times. (leading me to believe it wasn't hot enough)
> 
> I investigated the workings and it uses three sealed 10A temperature
> switchs at  at 95   110  and  145 degrees C...  
> 
> To raise the temperature, I found a virtually identical switch at
> Rapid Electronics that should switch at 160 degrees C  (but that is 
as
> high as that particular range goes)I am quite happy to order one and
> see what happens...  but
> 
> Has anyone actually measured the temperature that the laminator 
needs

> to run at to melt common toners ?
> 
> Do we think 160 C  (320 F)  is hot enough ?
> 
> Chris  
> 
>

On 31 Jan 2007, at 20:38, Chris Horne wrote:

> I will try and get a 180 C switch for the TEXET and try it out.. for
> quality AND safety..

I shorted the switch out on my laminator as a quick and dirty test.

The next thing that happened was the over temp. fuse blowing!

I noted also that the attainable temp was lower with the top of the  
case removed.

>   a 15 minute hack might be worth knowing for others...

Agreed, especially as this one results in something tidy in a case.

BTW, you already know about using the laminator to start off by  
tacking the press'n'peel, then resting an iron on it (kitchen paper  
in between) for about a minute, and then back into the laminator for  
a few passes?

-- 

Cheers

Derryck

On Thu, 01 Feb 2007 13:46:30 +0100, Barry Hitchen  
<barry.hitchen@...> wrote:

> I tried all the photo glossy
> paper I had and the best results were with Imation and Verbatim
> which I had picked up at sales at local stores.
>                                      Barry


Hey, good to hear someone else is using verbatim paper.
Which is yours, is there any number or weight or anything? Maybe we can  
find out if we use the same.

The verbatim i have is more work to remove than other papers, but it is  
the paper with which i can get the finest traces and also have large  
ground planes with not holes or defects. Also, it leaves a nice black  
transfer after some rubbing with foam rubber, clay papers leave that grey  
residue which is not nice for component legend.
I haven't really tried many papers, i think 5 in all and 3 of them worked.

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Horne" <chris@...> wrote:

> 
> He he ...
> 
> I decided to go with an old second hand laminator from ebay...
> it has an adjustable temperature control and what looks like a nice
> metal case..  shouldn't be too hard to reduce the feed speed if
required..
> 

Wow..  this is really cool  (or should I say HOT)

the laminator I got was at least 10 years old..

It has a steel and aluminium chassis

it has a fine temp adjustment on the outside...
coarse temp adhustment on the inside..
a machanical temperature gauge

two sets of gear driven rollers, one set in front and one set behind 

a heating plate over 2.5 inches fron to back...
a heating element 8 inches wide.

Two slight adjustments were needed 

1.  packing the bottom rollers up to compensate for the thicker material.
2.  adjust the coarse heat control to give a range 110 - 200 C

I thought I might need to reduce the speed a little, but...

once the two adjustments were done, boards only need to be run through
once, and reproduction is 100%

Cracked it !   Hooray.

I can't think why I spent all that time ironing.....  !!

Some time ago I measured the temperature of the popular H200 
laminator.  I posted the findings in message 7726.  The laminator did 
properly fuse the toner onto the PCB in a single pass.  Don't recall if 
I was using an HPIII or HP2200 printer tho to create the image.

Lyman

>  once the two adjustments were done, boards only need to be run through
>  once, and reproduction is 100%
>
>  Cracked it !   Hooray.
>
>  I can't think why I spent all that time ironing.....  !!

Lol you lucky sod!

What paper/printer you currently on?




Lez

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:
>
> >  once the two adjustments were done, boards only need to be run
through
> >  once, and reproduction is 100%
> >
> >  Cracked it !   Hooray.
> >
> >  I can't think why I spent all that time ironing.....  !!
> 
> Lol you lucky sod!
> 
> What paper/printer you currently on?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lez
>


The laminator is a GBC 330 I can't really guess the age excpt that it
is old..  and made in the USA

To be honest, I am using the commercial blue press-n-peel. 

I have tried using paper transfer in the past, but the blue stuff is
so much more repeatable, and not expensive when bought in reasonable
quantity.

Th only real experimenting I have done with papers, was years ago with
a dot matrix printer and banda stencils...    that taught me that I
din't want to play with papers ever again...

Chris

On 07/02/07, Chris Horne <chris@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:
>  >
>  > >  once the two adjustments were done, boards only need to be run
>  through
>  > >  once, and reproduction is 100%
>  > >
>  > >  Cracked it !   Hooray.
>  > >
>  > >  I can't think why I spent all that time ironing.....  !!
>  >
>  > Lol you lucky sod!
>  >
>  > What paper/printer you currently on?
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > Lez
>  >
>
>  The laminator is a GBC 330 I can't really guess the age excpt that it
>  is old..  and made in the USA

Ha, not a uk model then.


>  Th only real experimenting I have done with papers, was years ago with
>  a dot matrix printer and banda stencils...    that taught me that I
>  din't want to play with papers ever again...


Never heard of that one.
Lez