Yahoo Groups archive

Homebrew PCBs

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 23:05 UTC

Thread

HP PCL programming language?

HP PCL programming language?

2007-04-10 by lcdpublishing

Hi guys,

I am working on another idea - still pretty rough at the moment.  If 
things are the same as they were years back, all HP laser printers 
using their PCL language.  I used to have some documentation on that 
but have since lost it many years ago.  I am wondering if anyone has 
a link to any such documentation?

What I am working on is a way to take the PCL output for a printed 
PCB and use that information to control "something" to apply a 
resist to the PCB material.  In other words, print to a file using a 
laser printer driver. Then I would use that information to control 
the "Something" that would apply the resist of some sort.

It's a bit of a hair brained idea at the moment, but might be worth 
looking into further.

Thanks
Chris

Re: HP PCL programming language?

2007-04-10 by docstein99

I have found the PCL language reference attached with old printer 
manuals.  I have seen them on the internet before, probably in the HP 
7445 or 7550 plotter manuals.

But if your using a laser printer, it simply prints what you print in 
windows - if you print a circuit board pattern thats what prints out.  
If you modify the laserjet in any way - and if whatever your doing 
works, it will rastorize just as it normally does using the windows 
printer driver without having to learn the PCL programming language.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] HP PCL programming language?

2007-04-10 by Richard Holbert

lcdpublishing wrote:
> Hi guys,
>
> I am working on another idea - still pretty rough at the moment.  If 
> things are the same as they were years back, all HP laser printers 
> using their PCL language.  I used to have some documentation on that 
> but have since lost it many years ago.  I am wondering if anyone has 
> a link to any such documentation?
>
> What I am working on is a way to take the PCL output for a printed 
> PCB and use that information to control "something" to apply a 
> resist to the PCB material.  In other words, print to a file using a 
> laser printer driver. Then I would use that information to control 
> the "Something" that would apply the resist of some sort.
>
> It's a bit of a hair brained idea at the moment, but might be worth 
> looking into further.
>
> Thanks
> Chris
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/ 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>   
Postscript might be easier to work with.

Rick

Re: HP PCL programming language?

2007-04-10 by scratch_6057

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Richard Holbert <rholbert@...> 
wrote:
>
> lcdpublishing wrote:
> > Hi guys,
> >
> > I am working on another idea - still pretty rough at the moment.  
If 
> > things are the same as they were years back, all HP laser 
printers 
> > using their PCL language.  I used to have some documentation on 
that 
> > but have since lost it many years ago.  I am wondering if anyone 
has 
> > a link to any such documentation?
> >
> > What I am working on is a way to take the PCL output for a 
printed 
> > PCB and use that information to control "something" to apply a 
> > resist to the PCB material.  In other words, print to a file 
using a 
> > laser printer driver. Then I would use that information to 
control 
> > the "Something" that would apply the resist of some sort.
> >
> > It's a bit of a hair brained idea at the moment, but might be 
worth 
> > looking into further.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, 
and Photos:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> >
> > If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/ 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >   
> Postscript might be easier to work with.
> 
> Rick
>


If anyone wants to investigate the postscript options
Don  Lancaster's Guru's Lair has information in the 
Flutterwumper Library at (http://www.tinaja.com/flut01.asp)

Newbie questions

2007-04-10 by jusdebra

I'm a Marine Biologist that needs a non fishy hobby.  I've always been interested in electronics and I've been reading and experimenting for a few months.  I'm staying with low voltage DC stuff for now, mostly LED's.  (I tried an AC nightlight circuit and discovered the hard way that the decimal point on the 200v cap was a speck of dirt.  Did you know those things will explode?)
  I have some ideas for LED wall displays but want to make a circuit board instead of all that hookup wire.
  I've read quite a bit but just wonder what is the best way to start.  There seems to be some disagreement on chemicals, making transfers and all that stuff.  Is there a basic setup I can use?  Where is the best place to buy supplies? I currently have a laser printer and rubber gloves.
  That's a good start, huh? :)
   
  debra
  florida



       
---------------------------------
 Get your own web address.
 Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Newbie questions

2007-04-11 by DJ Delorie

Assuming you want to use the laser printer (and not an inkjet or other
print/etch technologies), there seem to be two basic techniques.

First, toner transfer.  Easiest way to get started (if you don't mind
spending a little for equipment) is to get Pulsar's starter kit, which
includes a laminator, the water-release paper, sealer foil, some PCBs,
and maybe even the solvent (requires hazmat shipping).

Second is photomask.  You buy pre-sensitized boards, print to a
transparency, and use UV light (or sunlight) to expose the mask.
You'll need some chemicals to develop the mask, and a mini-darkroom.

For both of these, you'll need etching chemicals too.  One choice is
FeCl, which you can buy at your local Radio Shack.  The other is a
H2O2/HCl mix, the parts for which you may be able to buy at a pool
supply shop.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Newbie questions

2007-04-11 by Leon

----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "DJ Delorie" <dj@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 4:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Newbie questions


>
> Assuming you want to use the laser printer (and not an inkjet or other
> print/etch technologies), there seem to be two basic techniques.
>
> First, toner transfer.  Easiest way to get started (if you don't mind
> spending a little for equipment) is to get Pulsar's starter kit, which
> includes a laminator, the water-release paper, sealer foil, some PCBs,
> and maybe even the solvent (requires hazmat shipping).
>
> Second is photomask.  You buy pre-sensitized boards, print to a
> transparency, and use UV light (or sunlight) to expose the mask.
> You'll need some chemicals to develop the mask, and a mini-darkroom.

You don't need a darkroom, standard positive resist isn't affected by 
daylight or artificial lighting during the process provided that it is 
developed soon after exposure.

Leon
--
Leon Heller
Amateur radio call-sign G1HSM
Yaesu FT-817ND and FT-857D transceivers
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
leon355@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Newbie questions

2007-04-11 by DJ Delorie

"Leon" <leon355@...> writes:
> You don't need a darkroom, standard positive resist isn't affected by 
> daylight or artificial lighting during the process provided that it is 
> developed soon after exposure.

Are the chemicals rather tame these days too?  I wouldn't mind tring
out photoetch, but I'm not a big fan of having lots of chemicals in
the house.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Newbie questions

2007-04-11 by Russell Shaw

DJ Delorie wrote:
> "Leon" <leon355@...> writes:
>> You don't need a darkroom, standard positive resist isn't affected by 
>> daylight or artificial lighting during the process provided that it is 
>> developed soon after exposure.
> 
> Are the chemicals rather tame these days too?

Dilute Na2CO3 (from pool shop), and dilute NaOH.

 > I wouldn't mind tring
> out photoetch, but I'm not a big fan of having lots of chemicals in
> the house.

Then stop eating and cleaning;)

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Newbie questions

2007-04-11 by Leon

----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "DJ Delorie" <dj@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Newbie questions


> 
> "Leon" <leon355@...> writes:
>> You don't need a darkroom, standard positive resist isn't affected by 
>> daylight or artificial lighting during the process provided that it is 
>> developed soon after exposure.
> 
> Are the chemicals rather tame these days too?  I wouldn't mind tring
> out photoetch, but I'm not a big fan of having lots of chemicals in
> the house.

Dilute sodium hydroxide solution (about 10g/litre) is what I use.

Leon

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Newbie questions

2007-04-11 by DJ Delorie

Russell Shaw <rjshaw@...> writes:
> > Are the chemicals rather tame these days too?
> 
> Dilute Na2CO3 (from pool shop), and dilute NaOH.

But are they tame?  I mean, do they outgas during use, do I need vent
fans, special cleanup rules, etc?  FeCl is messy, but not "dangerous"
that way, and it doesn't go bad if I don't use it for a while.

> > I wouldn't mind trying out photoetch, but I'm not a big fan of
> > having lots of chemicals in the house.
> 
> Then stop eating and cleaning;)

:-)

That reminds me, I still have some sulfuric acid kicking around from
many years ago.  Is that at all useful in pcb making?

Re: Newbie questions

2007-04-11 by derekhawkins

>I mean, do they outgas during use

Yep, you'll keel over on the first whiff.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Newbie questions

2007-04-11 by Leon

----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "DJ Delorie" <dj@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 4:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Newbie questions


>
> Russell Shaw <rjshaw@...> writes:
>> > Are the chemicals rather tame these days too?
>>
>> Dilute Na2CO3 (from pool shop), and dilute NaOH.
>
> But are they tame?  I mean, do they outgas during use, do I need vent
> fans, special cleanup rules, etc?  FeCl is messy, but not "dangerous"
> that way, and it doesn't go bad if I don't use it for a while.

No, they don't generate any gas. Keep it away from your eyes and don't get 
it on your skin. Oven cleaner is mostly NaOH, and it's used in dishwasher 
tablets.

>
>> > I wouldn't mind trying out photoetch, but I'm not a big fan of
>> > having lots of chemicals in the house.
>>
>> Then stop eating and cleaning;)
>
> :-)
>
> That reminds me, I still have some sulfuric acid kicking around from
> many years ago.  Is that at all useful in pcb making?

Not really. HCl can be useful for etching.

Leon

Re: Newbie questions

2007-04-11 by Dave Miller

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "derekhawkins" <eldata@...> wrote:
>
> >I mean, do they outgas during use
> 
> Yep, you'll keel over on the first whiff.
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, DJ Delorie <dj@> wrote:
> >
>

Check out the developing and striping solutions you can mix up on Think 
and Tinker's website:

http://thinktink.com/stack/volumes/voliii/consumbl/devmix.htm

The Soda Ash mentioned is the same as Washing Soda (sodium carbonate 
monohydrate) that can be picked up in your local grocery store in the 
laundry section, it is a common soap used to clean clothes and fairly 
beign.

The Sodium Hydoxide is of course Lye, which is often found in the drain 
cleaner section (you want pure Sodium Hydoxide, not mixed with any 
thing else). Lye is more damaging and should be treated with 
appropriate care. (Gloves, safety glasses, plenty of ventalation, plus 
always add the lie to the water, not the other way around).

They also give you the concentrations normally used to develop and 
strip the the boards.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Newbie questions

2007-04-11 by Russell Shaw

DJ Delorie wrote:
> Russell Shaw <rjshaw@...> writes:
>>> Are the chemicals rather tame these days too?
>> Dilute Na2CO3 (from pool shop), and dilute NaOH.
> 
> But are they tame?  I mean, do they outgas during use, do I need vent
> fans, special cleanup rules, etc?  FeCl is messy, but not "dangerous"
> that way, and it doesn't go bad if I don't use it for a while.

10% Na2CO3 is used for negative developer and doesn't gas, even
when i heat it to 25-30degC in the microwave.

10% NaOH is used for negative resist stripping and doesn't gas, even
when i heat it to 80degC in the microwave.

>>> I wouldn't mind trying out photoetch, but I'm not a big fan of
>>> having lots of chemicals in the house.
>> Then stop eating and cleaning;)
> 
> :-)
> 
> That reminds me, I still have some sulfuric acid kicking around from
> many years ago.  Is that at all useful in pcb making?

I can't recall it being useful for any pcb stuff. It might be useful
for electroplating.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Newbie questions

2007-04-11 by DJ Delorie

"Dave Miller" <dmiller45@...> writes:
> http://thinktink.com/stack/volumes/voliii/consumbl/devmix.htm

Hmm... I wonder if the supermarket carries "DOT Class 8 Corrosive"
stickers :-P

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Newbie questions

2007-04-11 by jusdebra

OMG, my dad is a Dave Miller.  Almost freaked me out when I saw it.  I was thinking, "Is he in this group?"
   
  Anyway, you guys have me confused again.  Some recommend acid and some alkali.  I've worked with both in some very strong concentrations and know how to handle them.  I have a $300 respirator with O2 feed and lots of gloves.  My biggest question is the type of paper you use in the printer so you can get a transfer.  Where do you get it?  Also a good source for blank boards (single side to start with).  What about software?  Is there a freeware that works good for simple layouts?  Is there a standard commercial package that everyone uses or is the most popular.  I've read about Eagle????  
  I've done some layouts by hand with a felt tip pen, but it's time consuming and difficult to edit.
   
  Thanks again,
  debra miller

Dave Miller <dmiller45@...> wrote:
  --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "derekhawkins" wrote:
>
> >I mean, do they outgas during use
> 
> Yep, you'll keel over on the first whiff.
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, DJ Delorie wrote:
> >
>

Check out the developing and striping solutions you can mix up on Think 
and Tinker's website:

http://thinktink.com/stack/volumes/voliii/consumbl/devmix.htm

The Soda Ash mentioned is the same as Washing Soda (sodium carbonate 
monohydrate) that can be picked up in your local grocery store in the 
laundry section, it is a common soap used to clean clothes and fairly 
beign.

The Sodium Hydoxide is of course Lye, which is often found in the drain 
cleaner section (you want pure Sodium Hydoxide, not mixed with any 
thing else). Lye is more damaging and should be treated with 
appropriate care. (Gloves, safety glasses, plenty of ventalation, plus 
always add the lie to the water, not the other way around).

They also give you the concentrations normally used to develop and 
strip the the boards.



Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs

If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/ 
Yahoo! Groups Links





       
---------------------------------
No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go 
with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Newbie questions

2007-04-11 by Leon

----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "jusdebra" <pookie_debra@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 9:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Newbie questions


> OMG, my dad is a Dave Miller.  Almost freaked me out when I saw it.  I was 
> thinking, "Is he in this group?"
>
>  Anyway, you guys have me confused again.  Some recommend acid and some 
> alkali.  I've worked with both in some very strong concentrations and know 
> how to handle them.  I have a $300 respirator with O2 feed and lots of 
> gloves.  My biggest question is the type of paper you use in the printer 
> so you can get a transfer.  Where do you get it?  Also a good source for 
> blank boards (single side to start with).  What about software?  Is there 
> a freeware that works good for simple layouts?  Is there a standard 
> commercial package that everyone uses or is the most popular.  I've read 
> about Eagle????
>  I've done some layouts by hand with a felt tip pen, but it's time 
> consuming and difficult to edit.

We were discussing the photo etch process, not toner transfer. NaOH solution 
is for developing the resist after UV exposure.

Everyone uses different software. I use Pulsonix which is excellent but 
rather expensive. A free version of Eagle is available that will do small 
boards, but it isn't an easy program to use. Then there is PCB (completely 
free) which is usually run under Linux. KiCAD is another free program.

Leon

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Newbie questions

2007-04-11 by Stefan Trethan

On Wed, 11 Apr 2007 17:46:35 +0200, DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:

>
> That reminds me, I still have some sulfuric acid kicking around from
> many years ago.  Is that at all useful in pcb making?

There is an etchant made from sulphuric acid and H2O2 much like CuCl (only  
of course copper sulphate). Sulphuric acid would have some neat qualities  
compared to HCl, but there was some catch making it unsuitable for me,  
which sadly i do not remember. But it is used industrially in some cases.

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Newbie questions

2007-04-11 by Myc Holmes

Take a look at Diptrace. It's much easier to learn than EAGLE and the free
version does not limit board size. The limit is 250 pins in a desgn.

Works well for me wth toner transfer.

Myc


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Newbie questions

2007-04-11 by Len Warner

Newbies should also note that in this group we are
often a bit hit-and-miss, sometimes going on slapdash,
in our reagent concentrations...

At 10:04 am ((PDT)) Wed Apr 11, 2007, Dave Miller wrote:
>http://thinktink.com/stack/volumes/voliii/consumbl/devmix.htm
>
>The Soda Ash mentioned is the same as Washing Soda (sodium carbonate
>monohydrate) that can be picked up in your local grocery store in the
>laundry section [snip]

Not the first time that kind of thing has been posted here.
Better read this too ;-)

http://www.pburch.net/dyeing/FAQ/sodaash.shtml
"FAQ: What is soda ash, and what's it used for in dyeing?"

 > Hydration
 >
 > Some forms of soda ash (e.g. that labeled as 'washing soda')
 > contain more water molecules than others, which makes them
 > weigh more and be larger for a given number of sodium carbonate
 > molecules - this means that you need to measure out a larger
 > quantity of the hydrated form in order to get the same results.
 > If you buy sodium carbonate without the extra water molecules,
 > then store it for several years in humid conditions, it will absorb
 > the water and appear to lose strength, when in fact it has merely
 > 'bulked up' and needs to be used in larger volumes.
 >
 > The type of sodium carbonate used in washing soda is a decahydrate,
 > so you need to use almost three times as much washing soda as
 > you would anhydrous soda ash - assuming that you are able to find
 > washing soda that is suitable for use in dyeing, which may be
 > difficult in the US.

Molecular Weight Calculator should make it easier:
http://www.lmnoeng.com/molecule.htm
(enter the number of atoms of each element)

Molecular Weight (g/mole):
180.1528   10H2O
105.98844  Na2CO3
286.14124  Na2CO3.10H2O

286.14124 / 105.98844 = 2.6997

So you need 2.7 times as much of those nice glassy
washing soda crystals than of the anhydrous soda ash.


Regards, LenW

Re: Newbie questions

2007-04-11 by Len Warner

At 2:01 pm ((PDT)) Wed Apr 11, 2007, Stefan Trethan wrote:
>On Wed, 11 Apr 2007 17:46:35 +0200, DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:
> > That reminds me, I still have some sulfuric acid kicking around from
> > many years ago.  Is that at all useful in pcb making?
>
>There is an etchant made from sulphuric acid and H2O2 much like CuCl (only
>of course copper sulphate). Sulphuric acid would have some neat qualities
>compared to HCl, but there was some catch making it unsuitable for me,
>which sadly i do not remember. But it is used industrially in some cases.

It is more hazardous in handling than hydrochloric acid:
because it not volatile - so un-neutralized splashes get
more concentrated as they dry, rather than evaporating;
and also, diluting concentrated sulphuric acid is highly
exothermic. (Always add acid to water, not water to acid.)

Conc. sulphuric (98%) is more concentrated than conc.
hydrochloric which is limited to around 40%.
Of other grades, "battery acid" at 33.5% is close to
commercial HCl "muriatic acid" strength.

You may find sulphuric acid sales are more tightly
controlled than hydrochloric acid, since it can be used
to make nitric acid and explosives.


Regards, LenW

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Newbie questions

2007-04-12 by Russell Shaw

Leon wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "jusdebra" <pookie_debra@...>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 9:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Newbie questions
> 
> 
>> OMG, my dad is a Dave Miller.  Almost freaked me out when I saw it.  I was 
>> thinking, "Is he in this group?"
>>
>>  Anyway, you guys have me confused again.  Some recommend acid and some 
>> alkali.  I've worked with both in some very strong concentrations and know 
>> how to handle them.  I have a $300 respirator with O2 feed and lots of 
>> gloves.  My biggest question is the type of paper you use in the printer 
>> so you can get a transfer.  Where do you get it?  Also a good source for 
>> blank boards (single side to start with).  What about software?  Is there 
>> a freeware that works good for simple layouts?  Is there a standard 
>> commercial package that everyone uses or is the most popular.  I've read 
>> about Eagle????
>>  I've done some layouts by hand with a felt tip pen, but it's time 
>> consuming and difficult to edit.
> 
> We were discussing the photo etch process, not toner transfer. NaOH solution 
> is for developing the resist after UV exposure.

I use 10% Na2CO3 sodium carbonate for the developing. Unlike NaOH,
it's much less reactive to skin.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Everyone uses different software. I use Pulsonix which is excellent but 
> rather expensive. A free version of Eagle is available that will do small 
> boards, but it isn't an easy program to use. Then there is PCB (completely 
> free) which is usually run under Linux. KiCAD is another free program.

Re: Newbie questions

2007-04-12 by Andrew

> Russell wrote:
> 
> I use 10% Na2CO3 sodium carbonate for
> the developing. Unlike NaOH, it's much
> less reactive to skin.

Does anyone use sodium silcate?

I beleive that is what is in the little
packets I get from computronics.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Newbie questions

2007-04-12 by Adam Seychell

Andrew wrote:
> 
> 
>  > Russell wrote:
>  >
>  > I use 10% Na2CO3 sodium carbonate for
>  > the developing. Unlike NaOH, it's much
>  > less reactive to skin.
> 
> Does anyone use sodium silcate?
> 
> I beleive that is what is in the little
> packets I get from computronics.

Positive resists use a much stronger alkaline developer, like 1% NaOH or 
Na2SO3. Negative dryfilm resist require a much gentler alkaline like 1% 
Na2CO3. I gave up on positive resists years ago, but been told silicate 
is much easer to use than the hydroxide.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Newbie questions

2007-04-12 by Russell Shaw

Russell Shaw wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "jusdebra" <pookie_debra@...>
>> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 9:17 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Newbie questions
>>
>>
>>> OMG, my dad is a Dave Miller.  Almost freaked me out when I saw it.  I was 
>>> thinking, "Is he in this group?"
>>>
>>>  Anyway, you guys have me confused again.  Some recommend acid and some 
>>> alkali.  I've worked with both in some very strong concentrations and know 
>>> how to handle them.  I have a $300 respirator with O2 feed and lots of 
>>> gloves.  My biggest question is the type of paper you use in the printer 
>>> so you can get a transfer.  Where do you get it?  Also a good source for 
>>> blank boards (single side to start with).  What about software?  Is there 
>>> a freeware that works good for simple layouts?  Is there a standard 
>>> commercial package that everyone uses or is the most popular.  I've read 
>>> about Eagle????
>>>  I've done some layouts by hand with a felt tip pen, but it's time 
>>> consuming and difficult to edit.
>> We were discussing the photo etch process, not toner transfer. NaOH solution 
>> is for developing the resist after UV exposure.
> 
> I use 10% Na2CO3 sodium carbonate for the developing. Unlike NaOH,
> it's much less reactive to skin.

Correction: It was 1% Na2CO3 sodium carbonate i use for negative resist.

Re: Newbie questions

2007-04-12 by Andrew

> Adam wrote:
>
> Positive resists use a much stronger
> alkaline developer, like 1% NaOH or 
> Na2SO3. Negative dryfilm resist require
> a much gentler alkaline like 1% Na2CO3.
> I gave up on positive resists years
> ago, but been told silicate is much
> easer to use than the hydroxide.

OK - so the stuff I buy from them is
just Na2CO3.  Will give some stuff from
the super market a try then.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Newbie questions

2007-04-12 by Leon

----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Adam Seychell" <a_seychell@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 6:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Newbie questions


> Andrew wrote:
>>
>>
>>  > Russell wrote:
>>  >
>>  > I use 10% Na2CO3 sodium carbonate for
>>  > the developing. Unlike NaOH, it's much
>>  > less reactive to skin.
>>
>> Does anyone use sodium silcate?
>>
>> I beleive that is what is in the little
>> packets I get from computronics.
>
> Positive resists use a much stronger alkaline developer, like 1% NaOH or
> Na2SO3. Negative dryfilm resist require a much gentler alkaline like 1%
> Na2CO3. I gave up on positive resists years ago, but been told silicate
> is much easer to use than the hydroxide.

It's actually sodium metasilicate. It has a lot more latitude than NaOH. I 
prefer NaOH because it's a lot cheaper and I can buy it from a local 
hardware shop.

Leon

Re: Newbie questions

2007-04-12 by pgdion1

Laser Printer & gloves is a great start

I do both Toner transfer and the photo method (as discussed here ... I
do the positive process as it is a little easier and the results are
still excellent). Although the photo method makes the best boards, I
do TT 90% of the time because it's very quick and easy and the boards
turn out pretty good (especially for projects like your descriping ...
anything through hole and larger SMD is a breeze ... I stick with the
larger SMD as it eliminates all the drilling).

For TT, I use Hammermill paper which can be bought from Sam's Club
online (among others).  My paper is:
 	 Hammermill OfficeOne Glossy Paper  #229030

I also think this would work good (but haven't tried it):
 	 Hammermill Color Laser Gloss Paper  #292253


Steve Trethan (forgive the name butchering) has a good paper too from
staples. It's also an office type business gloss (basically a cheap
glossy paper).


For layout I use Dip Trace.  The free demo version is quite capable
and full versions are not all that expesive either. I've been using it
a lot and really like it (and as I come from OrCAD, that says a lot).
http://www.diptrace.com/
OrCad also has a free demo version and their software is top notch but
the pcb layout in the demo is very limitted. DipTrace is much more
generous on design size.

I lay out the board with DipTrace, mirror the image (in DipTrace) for
the top layer (mirror top layer only if doing 2 sides), and print it
on the hammermill paper. To save sheets, you can cut them in half and
send half sheets through the printers single sheet slot. (you do know
this group is notoriously cheap right?)

Clean the board, I use dawn soap and a scotch-brite pad

Then I place the image on the board and iron the be-jeepers out of it
(iron on high, I iron fairly frim for 2 to 3 minutes depending on the
board size ... move the iron slowly over the board , push down between
movements but ease up a little when moving it so the traces don't smudge).

soak and peel (5 minutes of soak and then start rubbing the paper off

I etch in Ferric Chloride as the toner is very resistant to it.
I also etched a couple in Muratic Acid. It worked well and was fast
but the boards need to come out right away or the acid starts to eat
under the toner and lifts it off. And there are the nasty fumes too.
Works good though (50/50 Muratic acid from Menards and Hydrogen
Peroxide from the drugstore as both are already diluted) 

For blank boards I shop Jameco (www.jameco.com) and Digi-Key. 
Digi-Key has a larger selection and actually very good prices on their
stock.

Radio Shack used to sell pcb stock too although the boards aren't as
good (I like FR-4, I'm not sure if they carry that). Good place to get
something quick though.

- phil
KA0HBG


> My biggest question is the type of paper you use in the printer so
you can get a transfer.  Where do you get it?  Also a good source for
blank boards (single side to start with).  What about software?  Is
there a freeware that works good for simple layouts?  Is there a
standard commercial package that everyone uses or is the most popular.
 I've read about Eagle????  
>   I've done some layouts by hand with a felt tip pen, but it's time
consuming and difficult to edit.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Newbie questions

2007-04-12 by Dale Chatham

Or, grocery store (Drano).

Leon wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
> It's actually sodium metasilicate. It has a lot more latitude than NaOH. I 
> prefer NaOH because it's a lot cheaper and I can buy it from a local 
> hardware shop.
>
> Leon

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Newbie questions

2007-04-12 by Leon

----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Dale Chatham" <dale@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 3:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Newbie questions


> Or, grocery store (Drano).
>

We don't have Drano here in the UK. We have something called Mr Muscle Drain 
Cleaner, but that contains lots of other stuff as well.

Leon

Re: Newbie questions

2007-04-12 by Dave Miller

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, DJ Delorie <dj@...> wrote:
>
> 
> "Dave Miller" <dmiller45@...> writes:
> > http://thinktink.com/stack/volumes/voliii/consumbl/devmix.htm
> 
> Hmm... I wonder if the supermarket carries "DOT Class 8 Corrosive"
> stickers :-P
>

If it was a new product being introduced today they would probably have 
to label it as hazardus, and may not be able to introduce it at all, 
however, it has been arround for much greater than I care to think 
about, so it is probubly grandfathered under some rule or other!

Re: Newbie questions

2007-04-12 by Dave Miller

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, jusdebra <pookie_debra@...> wrote:
>
> OMG, my dad is a Dave Miller.  Almost freaked me out when I saw it.  
I was thinking, "Is he in this group?"
>    
> Snip <

Your Dad would probably be one of the first to agree with me that Dave 
Miller is a fairly common name. There are 3 of us in the company I 
currently work for and we constantly get each other's e-mail, in a 
previous company, there were two of us in the same department, it 
caused confusion to say the least!

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Newbie questions

2007-04-12 by Stefan Trethan

On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 15:37:00 +0200, pgdion1 <pgdion1@...> wrote:

>
> Steve Trethan (forgive the name butchering) has a good paper too from
> staples. It's also an office type business gloss (basically a cheap
> glossy paper).


Mine's not from staples (since we don't have them here, although they are  
in Germany already...).
But glossy inkjet is a good start, matte clay coated papers are very  
likely to work, but gloss gives me no pinholes and better resolution, so  
it is worth the effort to find the right one.


ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Newbie questions

2007-04-12 by Stefan Trethan

On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 01:16:35 +0200, Len Warner <novost@...> wrote:

> It is more hazardous in handling than hydrochloric acid:
> because it not volatile - so un-neutralized splashes get
> more concentrated as they dry, rather than evaporating;
> and also, diluting concentrated sulphuric acid is highly
> exothermic. (Always add acid to water, not water to acid.)


Will it really concentrate? Sulphuric acid is very hygroscopic, should it  
not absorb moisture from the air?

But this was not the catch making it unsuitable for me, that much i  
remember.

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Newbie questions

2007-04-12 by jusdebra

Thanks Phil (and others),
   
  I think I'm ready to mess up my first board.  My dad and I built a plastic tray and he used a propeller with shaft to provide agitation.  I don't know what it's made of, some kind of polyethylene or plastic and I think the etching solution we use will be determined by what doesn't melt the little propeller. LOL  He was going to do air, but was afraid the bubbles would stick to the board in the wrong places.
  I'll order some stuff in the next couple days and draw a small circuit to sacrifice in the first try.  I;'ll let you know.
   
  You guys are great.  I wouldn't attempt this without your help.    
   
  OK, I probably would, but I will find success sooner with your help.  How's that?
   
  debra
   
  

pgdion1 <pgdion1@...> wrote:
  Laser Printer & gloves is a great start

I do both Toner transfer and the photo method (as discussed here ... I
do the positive process as it is a little easier and the results are
still excellent). Although the photo method makes the best boards, I
do TT 90% of the time because it's very quick and easy and the boards
turn out pretty good (especially for projects like your descriping ...
anything through hole and larger SMD is a breeze ... I stick with the
larger SMD as it eliminates all the drilling).

For TT, I use Hammermill paper which can be bought from Sam's Club
online (among others). My paper is:
Hammermill OfficeOne Glossy Paper #229030

I also think this would work good (but haven't tried it):
Hammermill Color Laser Gloss Paper #292253


Steve Trethan (forgive the name butchering) has a good paper too from
staples. It's also an office type business gloss (basically a cheap
glossy paper).


For layout I use Dip Trace. The free demo version is quite capable
and full versions are not all that expesive either. I've been using it
a lot and really like it (and as I come from OrCAD, that says a lot).
http://www.diptrace.com/
OrCad also has a free demo version and their software is top notch but
the pcb layout in the demo is very limitted. DipTrace is much more
generous on design size.

I lay out the board with DipTrace, mirror the image (in DipTrace) for
the top layer (mirror top layer only if doing 2 sides), and print it
on the hammermill paper. To save sheets, you can cut them in half and
send half sheets through the printers single sheet slot. (you do know
this group is notoriously cheap right?)

Clean the board, I use dawn soap and a scotch-brite pad

Then I place the image on the board and iron the be-jeepers out of it
(iron on high, I iron fairly frim for 2 to 3 minutes depending on the
board size ... move the iron slowly over the board , push down between
movements but ease up a little when moving it so the traces don't smudge).

soak and peel (5 minutes of soak and then start rubbing the paper off

I etch in Ferric Chloride as the toner is very resistant to it.
I also etched a couple in Muratic Acid. It worked well and was fast
but the boards need to come out right away or the acid starts to eat
under the toner and lifts it off. And there are the nasty fumes too.
Works good though (50/50 Muratic acid from Menards and Hydrogen
Peroxide from the drugstore as both are already diluted) 

For blank boards I shop Jameco (www.jameco.com) and Digi-Key. 
Digi-Key has a larger selection and actually very good prices on their
stock.

Radio Shack used to sell pcb stock too although the boards aren't as
good (I like FR-4, I'm not sure if they carry that). Good place to get
something quick though.

- phil
KA0HBG


> My biggest question is the type of paper you use in the printer so
you can get a transfer. Where do you get it? Also a good source for
blank boards (single side to start with). What about software? Is
there a freeware that works good for simple layouts? Is there a
standard commercial package that everyone uses or is the most popular.
I've read about Eagle???? 
> I've done some layouts by hand with a felt tip pen, but it's time
consuming and difficult to edit.




Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs

If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/ 
Yahoo! Groups Links





       
---------------------------------
Never miss an email again!
Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. Check it out.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Newbie questions

2007-04-12 by jusdebra

I know it's common, so is my name.  I was going to change it to, Juanshettia Adafolarin, but chickend out.
   
  debra
  (The Dave Miller's that I know are GREAT guys!)
   
  

Dave Miller <dmiller45@...> wrote:
  --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, jusdebra 
wrote:
>
> OMG, my dad is a Dave Miller. Almost freaked me out when I saw it. 
I was thinking, "Is he in this group?"
> 
> Snip <

Your Dad would probably be one of the first to agree with me that Dave 
Miller is a fairly common name. There are 3 of us in the company I 
currently work for and we constantly get each other's e-mail, in a 
previous company, there were two of us in the same department, it 
caused confusion to say the least!




Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs

If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/ 
Yahoo! Groups Links





       
---------------------------------
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
 Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Newbie questions

2007-04-12 by Leon

----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "jusdebra" <pookie_debra@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 6:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Newbie questions


> Thanks Phil (and others),
>
>  I think I'm ready to mess up my first board.  My dad and I built a 
> plastic tray and he used a propeller with shaft to provide agitation.  I 
> don't know what it's made of, some kind of polyethylene or plastic and I 
> think the etching solution we use will be determined by what doesn't melt 
> the little propeller. LOL  He was going to do air, but was afraid the 
> bubbles would stick to the board in the wrong places.
>  I'll order some stuff in the next couple days and draw a small circuit to 
> sacrifice in the first try.  I;'ll let you know.

Hand agitation works fine - just rock the container. It helps to have it in 
a larger container with a couple of inches of hot water in it. Wear rubber 
gloves, of course.

Leon

Re: Newbie questions

2007-04-13 by derekhawkins

>Does anyone use sodium silcate?

I use sodium metasilicate with off-the-shelf positive resist boards. An 
80 cent packet lasts about a year. Have NaOH in abundance but use it 
only for stripping the remaining resist after etching.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...> wrote:
>

Re: Newbie questions

2007-04-13 by Len Warner

At 10:34 am ((PDT)) Thu Apr 12, 2007, Stefan Trethan wrote:

>On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 01:16:35 +0200, Len Warner <novost@...> wrote:
>
> > It is more hazardous in handling than hydrochloric acid:
> > because it not volatile - so un-neutralized splashes get
> > more concentrated as they dry, rather than evaporating;


>Will it really concentrate? Sulphuric acid is very hygroscopic,
>should it not absorb moisture from the air?

Conc. sulphuric acid is a powerful dessicating agent and would
absorb atmospheric moisture.

If you splash conc. sulphuric acid onto organic matter it will
dehydrate it quickly  - viz. the sugar/sulphuric acid carbon volcano
demonstration. So handle conc. sulphuric with great care and as
little as possible.

I meant working-strength dilution. Dilute sulphuric acid will lose
water vapour and will not evaporate much H2SO4 until the
concentration rises to around 77% - which strength is not
something you would like to leave laying around the place and
may be higher than the concentration you are bought it at!

Whereas conc. hydrochloric acid starts at around 35% and
when spilled will evaporate completely, though not necessarily
without causing some damage; sulphuric acid, diluted to a
similar strength to make it easier to handle, when spilled will
linger and strengthen and so be likely to cause "acid burn" stains
and possibly start actual fires (as oxidizing oil does in old rags).

So protect against splashes, wear synthetic clothing, and
wash down all contaminated surfaces well then neutralize with
sodium bicarbonate (or carbonate) solution. (Or, if you want
minimum residues and don't mind the smell, ammonia water.)


Regards, LenW

Re: Newbie questions

2007-04-13 by pgdion1

My "Darkroom" is my shop in the basement with a 60w bulb in the
corner. This provides sufficient light to work by and still allows for
long times working with the photo-pcb's before developing.

I know it could be brighter but this seems sufficient to see by and is
very board safe.

- phil
KA0HBG

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Leon" <leon355@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "DJ Delorie" <dj@...>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 4:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Newbie questions
> 
> 
> > Second is photomask.  You buy pre-sensitized boards, print to a
> > transparency, and use UV light (or sunlight) to expose the mask.
> > You'll need some chemicals to develop the mask, and a mini-darkroom.
> 
> You don't need a darkroom, standard positive resist isn't affected by 
> daylight or artificial lighting during the process provided that it is 
> developed soon after exposure.
> 
> Leon
> --
> Leon Heller
> Amateur radio call-sign G1HSM
> Yaesu FT-817ND and FT-857D transceivers
> Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
> leon355@...
> http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Hammermill Office One Glossy Paper

2007-04-13 by Roland F. Harriston

Can anyone provide me with the UPC number for Hammermill
Office One Glossy Paper?

The item number (229030) previously posted here by a member does not 
seem to exist in
any of the Hammermill product listings I have access to..

Perhaps this number is a Sam's Club stock number or some such, but it 
does not ring a bell with Hammermill suppliers

Thanks

Roland F. Harriston

Re: Newbie questions

2007-04-13 by derekhawkins

>I know it could be brighter but this seems sufficient to see by and 
>is very board safe.

Here's a tip, change the light switch for a dimmer-switch, that way you 
can use a brighter bulb and still meet lighting levels for all 
occasions. I also have a dimmer-switch in the bathroom for development.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "pgdion1" <pgdion1@...> wrote:
>

Re: Hammermill Office One Glossy Paper

2007-04-14 by izzo47

Looks like Sam's,online, maybe the only place to order. Tried Staples &
Office Max...Office Max had another Hammerhill paper very similar.

Sam's Club Description:

Hammermill Office One Business Glossy Papar #229030

Paper, Color, Laser, 32lb, 92 Brightness, 81/2 x 11 White 300 Sheets
$7.06

Don't know IF you need a membership card to order online...my guess is
yes?

Izzo

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Roland F. Harriston"
<rolohar@...> wrote:
>
> Can anyone provide me with the UPC number for Hammermill
> Office One Glossy Paper?
>
> The item number (229030) previously posted here by a member does not
> seem to exist in
> any of the Hammermill product listings I have access to..
>
> Perhaps this number is a Sam's Club stock number or some such, but it
> does not ring a bell with Hammermill suppliers
>
> Thanks
>
> Roland F. Harriston
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Hammermill Office One Glossy Paper

2007-04-14 by Roland F. Harriston

Izzo:

Thanks for the response.

I did see Hammermill #229030 listed on the Sam's Club website,
but one has to be a paid-up member to order online,
and I'm not such.

The Office Max folks told me that they have never
seen the given Hammermill number, and could not
order it for me unless I came up with a "real"
Hammermill number.

Anyway, the paper I purchased from Fry's, which is
their # 2687282 works quite well and does not require
the customary water-soak to remove the paper. 

Regards,

Roland F. Harriston
**************************

izzo47 wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
> Looks like Sam's,online, maybe the only place to order. Tried Staples &
> Office Max...Office Max had another Hammerhill paper very similar.
>
> Sam's Club Description:
>
> Hammermill Office One Business Glossy Papar #229030
>
> Paper, Color, Laser, 32lb, 92 Brightness, 81/2 x 11 White 300 Sheets
> $7.06
>
> Don't know IF you need a membership card to order online...my guess is
> yes?
>
> Izzo
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@ yahoogroups. com 
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>, "Roland F. Harriston"
> <rolohar@... > wrote:
> >
> > Can anyone provide me with the UPC number for Hammermill
> > Office One Glossy Paper?
> >
> > The item number (229030) previously posted here by a member does not
> > seem to exist in
> > any of the Hammermill product listings I have access to..
> >
> > Perhaps this number is a Sam's Club stock number or some such, but it
> > does not ring a bell with Hammermill suppliers
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Roland F. Harriston
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

Newbie questions

2010-01-04 by jimofc300

Hi,

While I'm an experienced design engineer, I've never done a PC board in 40+ years of design. We had a special department to do that. Now retired, I thought I'd try inventing. I find PCBs important to that goal.

In getting together a kit to do this, I had a few thoughts and questions. I hope you more experienced (though not necessarily older) and (presumably) wiser folks :-) can address some of these questions.

1)  I've looked into photo paper and "Press-N-Peel" to transfer toner as resist. Do you think laser T-shirt transfer paper, which is probably cheaper, would work, too? Has someone tried this?

2)  Do you think latex gloves, as you'd find in a doctor's office, would be safe for handling boards and etchant? They're cheap at Walgreens and disposable to reduce cleanup effort.

3)  If ferric chloride wouldn't destroy them, would kitchen plastic bags (ZipLock-type) work for etching boards? They'd probably save on etchant and, if I don't slop too much, reduce cleanup.

4)  How nasty is used ferric chloride? Is it a HazMat material? How do you folks dispose of it in an eco-friendly manner?

5)  Would Krylon spray clear coating and/or spray paint work as a solder mask? My thought is to spray the board immediately after etching and touch-up. Then, I would assume, soldering would burn off the paint instantly. Would a second coat be necessary after assembly?

Thanks for considering my questions. I'll probably have more later.

Jim Barnes

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Newbie questions

2010-01-05 by Harvey White

On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 07:59:12 -0000, you wrote:

>Hi,
>
>While I'm an experienced design engineer, I've never done a PC board in 40+ years of design. We had a special department to do that. Now retired, I thought I'd try inventing. I find PCBs important to that goal.

Works for me.

>
>In getting together a kit to do this, I had a few thoughts and questions. I hope you more experienced (though not necessarily older) and (presumably) wiser folks :-) can address some of these questions.

I'll give it a try.
>
>1)  I've looked into photo paper and "Press-N-Peel" to transfer toner as resist. Do you think laser T-shirt transfer paper, which is probably cheaper, would work, too? Has someone tried this?
>

T shirt transfer paper (at least, the inkjet type) has a film that
goes over the whole page area.   You'd be covering the board with
that.  You want something that doesn't add a coating to the board,
only transfers the resist.  I happen to use the pulsar paper well, but
I've also done photoetching.

>2)  Do you think latex gloves, as you'd find in a doctor's office, would be safe for handling boards and etchant? They're cheap at Walgreens and disposable to reduce cleanup effort.

Cheaper at Harbor freight.  But I use the nitrile ones, and throw them
away after one use.  However, the yellow gloves, perhaps the "chemical
resistant ones" are more resistant to hot etchant and last longer.
They are also more tear resistant, but they will die eventually.

>
>3)  If ferric chloride wouldn't destroy them, would kitchen plastic bags (ZipLock-type) work for etching boards? They'd probably save on etchant and, if I don't slop too much, reduce cleanup.

Ferric chloride won't destroy them during one use.  I'd try the
freezer style, they're tougher.

Pulsar has some fast etch techniques.  Not done them with a lot of
success, but you can speed up the etching if you gently rub some areas
of the board.  Etch resist has to be tough, though.

>
>4)  How nasty is used ferric chloride? Is it a HazMat material? How do you folks dispose of it in an eco-friendly manner?
>

varies in opinion and locale.  Others use a mixture of hydrogen
peroxide and muriatic acid,  which seems to be a nicer etchant.  I'll
be trying it later.

>5)  Would Krylon spray clear coating and/or spray paint work as a solder mask? My thought is to spray the board immediately after etching and touch-up. Then, I would assume, soldering would burn off the paint instantly. Would a second coat be necessary after assembly?

Not a solder mask, but moderately decent for board coating.  I put
parts on both sides, so not so useful.  I think it would be less heat
resistant than you want, so how to make it a solder mask is a good
question.


>
>Thanks for considering my questions. I'll probably have more later.

Works for me.

Harvey
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>Jim Barnes
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Newbie questions

2010-01-05 by DJ Delorie

"jimofc300" <jim@...> writes:

> 2) Do you think latex gloves, as you'd find in a doctor's office,
> would be safe for handling boards and etchant? They're cheap at
> Walgreens and disposable to reduce cleanup effort.

That's what I used until I got a pair of the heavy-duty rubber gloves.
Just be careful that the sharp edges of the PCB don't tear them.

> 3) If ferric chloride wouldn't destroy them, would kitchen plastic
> bags (ZipLock-type) work for etching boards? They'd probably save on
> etchant and, if I don't slop too much, reduce cleanup.

Use a plastic one-gallon milk jug.  Cut it vertically into two halves,
keeping the spout on one half and the handle on the other.  Use the
spout half as a tray, it's got a built-in funnel :-)

> 4) How nasty is used ferric chloride? Is it a HazMat material? How
> do you folks dispose of it in an eco-friendly manner?

Mine is still sitting under the lab sink in its original decades-old
bottle.  The FeCl itself is relatively harmless when diluted, but the
copper in it isn't.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Newbie questions

2010-01-05 by David Griffith

On Mon, 4 Jan 2010, jimofc300 wrote:

> Hi,
>
> While I'm an experienced design engineer, I've never done a PC board in 
> 40+ years of design. We had a special department to do that. Now 
> retired, I thought I'd try inventing. I find PCBs important to that 
> goal.
>
> In getting together a kit to do this, I had a few thoughts and 
> questions. I hope you more experienced (though not necessarily older) 
> and (presumably) wiser folks :-) can address some of these questions.
>
> 1)  I've looked into photo paper and "Press-N-Peel" to transfer toner as 
> resist. Do you think laser T-shirt transfer paper, which is probably 
> cheaper, would work, too? Has someone tried this?

Might be worth a try.  Lots of people have success with the slick pages of 
magazines.  The ink already there won't transfer and the clay will hold 
the toner just enough to let you do a heat transfer.  Look up "Gootee 
board" for the guy who came up with it.

> 2)  Do you think latex gloves, as you'd find in a doctor's office, would 
> be safe for handling boards and etchant? They're cheap at Walgreens and 
> disposable to reduce cleanup effort.

Those would work fine.  The biggest hazard with ferric chloride is that it 
stains just about everything including glass and skin.  So, think twice 
before you borrow your wife's cassarole dish for etching.  My custard cups
now have an odd tinge of yellow.

> 3)  If ferric chloride wouldn't destroy them, would kitchen plastic bags 
> (ZipLock-type) work for etching boards? They'd probably save on etchant 
> and, if I don't slop too much, reduce cleanup.

I never thought of that.  Maybe.  Another method to be stingy with etchant 
is to wipe the board with a small sponge or swab.  It takes a lot longer 
that way though.

> 4)  How nasty is used ferric chloride? Is it a HazMat material? How do 
> you folks dispose of it in an eco-friendly manner?

Small amounts down the drain is generally considered okay.  See also 
http://hackaday.com/2009/01/26/ferric-chloride-etching-chemistry/ 
for other ideas and alternative etchants.

> 5)  Would Krylon spray clear coating and/or spray paint work as a solder 
> mask? My thought is to spray the board immediately after etching and 
> touch-up. Then, I would assume, soldering would burn off the paint 
> instantly. Would a second coat be necessary after assembly?

You can do that, but it won't work as a soldermask because the heat of 
soldering burns off the film.  It'll do the other job of soldermask: 
keeping the copper untarnished.  Transparent Green Candy Apple by Testors 
gives something very close to the classic green soldermask and lets the 
traces show through.  A spray afterwards probably isn't necessary.


-- 
David Griffith
dgriffi@...

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Newbie questions

2010-01-05 by Leon Heller

----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "jimofc300" <jim@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 7:59 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Newbie questions


> Hi,
>
> While I'm an experienced design engineer, I've never done a PC board in 
> 40+ years of design. We had a special department to do that. Now retired, 
> I thought I'd try inventing. I find PCBs important to that goal.
>
> In getting together a kit to do this, I had a few thoughts and questions. 
> I hope you more experienced (though not necessarily older) and 
> (presumably) wiser folks :-) can address some of these questions.
>
> 1)  I've looked into photo paper and "Press-N-Peel" to transfer toner as 
> resist. Do you think laser T-shirt transfer paper, which is probably 
> cheaper, would work, too? Has someone tried this?

I tried it years ago, it just makes a nasty mess on the board.

>
> 2)  Do you think latex gloves, as you'd find in a doctor's office, would 
> be safe for handling boards and etchant? They're cheap at Walgreens and 
> disposable to reduce cleanup effort.

I use ordinary kitchen rubber gloves. Latex is too thin and you will burn 
your hands.

>
> 3)  If ferric chloride wouldn't destroy them, would kitchen plastic bags 
> (ZipLock-type) work for etching boards? They'd probably save on etchant 
> and, if I don't slop too much, reduce cleanup.

Ziplock bags work, apparently. Put the bag etc. in very hot water. I use a 
small plastic food container in an old washing uip bowl with about 1" of 
very hot water in it. WEtching takes about 5 mins with fresh etchant.


>
> 4)  How nasty is used ferric chloride? Is it a HazMat material? How do you 
> folks dispose of it in an eco-friendly manner?

Ferric chloride is quite safe, it's actually used in water treatment. Don't 
get it in your eyes, though.

>
> 5)  Would Krylon spray clear coating and/or spray paint work as a solder 
> mask? My thought is to spray the board immediately after etching and 
> touch-up. Then, I would assume, soldering would burn off the paint 
> instantly. Would a second coat be necessary after assembly?

You can buy a proper spray-on flux, which helps soldering, or a special 
lacquer, which burns through when soldering. I don't bother, as I use 
photo-etch and my boards don't oxidise because of the thin film of resist 
remaining on the copper.

Leon

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Newbie questions

2010-01-05 by Piers Goodhew

On 05/01/2010, at 8:15 PM, Leon Heller wrote:

> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "jimofc300" <jim@...>
> 
> > 3) If ferric chloride wouldn't destroy them, would kitchen plastic bags 
> > (ZipLock-type) work for etching boards? They'd probably save on etchant 
> > and, if I don't slop too much, reduce cleanup.
> 
> Ziplock bags work, apparently. Put the bag etc. in very hot water. I use a 
> small plastic food container in an old washing uip bowl with about 1" of 
> very hot water in it. WEtching takes about 5 mins with fresh etchant.

I use what was a sliced peach jar. Relatively thick HDPE with a screw top, slightly less than 1" of hot water, throw an extra teaspoon of Amm. Persulfate in when it stops working (I don't go anywhere near the volumes that would merit a permanent CuCl tank). You can screw the lid on and swish the jar around.

> You can buy a proper spray-on flux, which helps soldering, or a special 
> lacquer, which burns through when soldering. I don't bother, as I use 
> photo-etch and my boards don't oxidise because of the thin film of resist 
> remaining on the copper.

I've also just left the toner on the traces (cleared it off the pads w/- Qtip). But once you go to SMD/hotplate there's no going back (no drilling!), and that's not an option then. (Actually, I only assume it's not an option, never tried but I reckon it would burn/smoke)

PG

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Newbie questions

2010-01-05 by Brian Lalor

I haven’t etched my first board, yet (getting asymptotically closer;  
maybe this week if I can get my toner sorted) so I’m watching this  
with extreme interest. :-)

On Jan 4, 2010, at 2:59 AM, jimofc300 wrote:

> 5)  Would Krylon spray clear coating and/or spray paint work as a  
> solder mask? My thought is to spray the board immediately after  
> etching and touch-up. Then, I would assume, soldering would burn off  
> the paint instantly. Would a second coat be necessary after assembly?

I bought a container of MG Chemical’s “Liquid Tin”, Mouser part number  
590-421-500ML.  Once the board’s etched, you just swish it around in  
some of this stuff and it tins the remaining copper.  It’s supposed to  
prevent oxidation, but it is not a solder mask.  Mine came with a good  
amount of precipitate on the bottom; anyone know if that’s normal?

--
Brian Lalor
blalor@bravo5.org

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.