Homebrew PCBs

Hi Stephan and the group.
As I said earlier I would try and make up a web page 
describing some details of the drill press I built.
Feel free to ask any question.

http://home.alphalink.com.au/~seychell/Drill_Press/Adam's_PCB_drill_press.html


Adam

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, adam Seychell
<adam_seychell@y...> wrote:
> Hi Stephan and the group.
> As I said earlier I would try and make up a web page 
> describing some details of the drill press I built.
> Feel free to ask any question.
> 
>
http://home.alphalink.com.au/~seychell/Drill_Press/Adam's_PCB_drill_press.html
> 

Never a wise idea to use apostrophe's in a link. It works if I cut and
paste, but my mailreader splits the link at that point.

Here it is in TinyURL:

http://tinyurl.com/c7fj

Steve Greenfield

20.05.2003 16:00:06, "Steve" <alienrelics@...> wrote:

>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, adam Seychell
><adam_seychell@y...> wrote:
>> Hi Stephan and the group.
>> As I said earlier I would try and make up a web page 
>> describing some details of the drill press I built.
>> Feel free to ask any question.
>> 
>>
>http://home.alphalink.com.au/~seychell/Drill_Press/Adam's_PCB_drill_press.html
>> 
>
>Never a wise idea to use apostrophe's in a link. It works if I cut and
>paste, but my mailreader splits the link at that point.
>
>Here it is in TinyURL:
>
>http://tinyurl.com/c7fj
>
>Steve Greenfield
>


thanks for the pictures. now it is much clearer how you operate it.

@steve:
in my browser the apostrophe was no problem.
but tinyurl takes a lot time to redirect. ;-)

@markus:
ok, i will regard this request.
i didn't think about it a lot.
normally i answer all emails on top.

i find it a little strange to have to scroll down and search the whole email for the reply (which is in 
between and not at the bottom because of all of the sponsor advertising etc..

but i understand with mailgroups it is then easyer to read old postings because the text is in the right 
order. anyways i personally find it more comfortable to write/read the latest thing on top of a mail. 
(the lower part only being for reference if anyone is not familiar with it).

but of course i will join the majority and from now on write on the bottom.



i have tested the drill i wanted to put on the new press.
it is scrap.
the carbide bits will never withstand this.
it is out of center....


i will go to the tool shop tomorrow, see their minidrill products.
the proxxon drill presses are very nice (and ready made) but also much more expensive than the hand 
tools and making the press your own.
i also have a second (dremel-like) minidrill at home which is much better centered..
i will maybe use this after closer inspection.

regards
stefan

In a message dated 5/20/2003 7:41:34 AM Central Standard Time, 
adam_seychell@... writes:

> Hi Stephan and the group.
> As I said earlier I would try and make up a web page 
> describing some details of the drill press I built.
> Feel free to ask any question.
> 
> <A HREF="http://home.alphalink.com.au/~seychell/Drill_Press/Adam's_PCB_drill_press.html">
> 
> 
> http://home.alphalink.com.au/~seychell/Drill_Press/Adam's_PCB_drill_press.html</A>
> 

MY virus-detector says "The attached file looks suspicious..." and the title 
of the attachment is something like "payback.com" or whatever.  It looks to 
ME like there is some evil trash unwittingly stuck onto Adam's photo file!  I 
have NO clue what to suggest to avoid this, as the PHOTO downloaded fine, but 
I did NOT go on to load the attachment, once I saw the title, warning, and 
that the drill-photo seemed OK.

Jan Rowland


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steve wrote:
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, adam Seychell
> <adam_seychell@y...> wrote:
> 
>>Hi Stephan and the group.
>>As I said earlier I would try and make up a web page 
>>describing some details of the drill press I built.
>>Feel free to ask any question.
>>
>>
> 
> http://home.alphalink.com.au/~seychell/Drill_Press/Adam's_PCB_drill_press.html
> 
> 
> Never a wise idea to use apostrophe's in a link. It works if I cut and
> paste, but my mailreader splits the link at that point.
> 
> Here it is in TinyURL:
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/c7fj
> 
> Steve Greenfield
> 

You are quite right. I was a bit late and I was doing things 
quickly. That ' character is not supported by many email viewers, 
including my Netscape 7.0. Opps. But a copy and paste of the URL 
works fine.

JanRwl@... wrote:
> In a message dated 5/20/2003 7:41:34 AM Central Standard Time, 
> adam_seychell@... writes:
>>
>>http://home.alphalink.com.au/~seychell/Drill_Press/Adam's_PCB_drill_press.html</A>
>>
> 
> MY virus-detector says "The attached file looks suspicious..." and the title 
> of the attachment is something like "payback.com" or whatever.  It looks to 
> ME like there is some evil trash unwittingly stuck onto Adam's photo file!  I 
> have NO clue what to suggest to avoid this, as the PHOTO downloaded fine, but 
> I did NOT go on to load the attachment, once I saw the title, warning, and 
> that the drill-photo seemed OK.
> 
> Jan Rowland
> 

I just scanned all 7 JPG files and none came up with any remnants 
of virus code. The JPG format does not have ability to contain 
usable viruses. Can you just image the security of the web if it 
did. What anti virus product detected what JPG file as suspicious ?
If you got an attachment with my post to 
Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com (file name "payback.com") then why 
has no one else on this group received this attachemnt, including 
myself ?

Adam

Stefan Trethan wrote:
> 20.05.2003 16:00:06, "Steve" <alienrelics@...> wrote:
> 

> 
> thanks for the pictures. now it is much clearer how you operate it.
> 
> @steve:
> in my browser the apostrophe was no problem.
> but tinyurl takes a lot time to redirect. ;-)
> 
> @markus:
> ok, i will regard this request.
> i didn't think about it a lot.
> normally i answer all emails on top.
> 
> i find it a little strange to have to scroll down and search the whole email for the reply (which is in 
> between and not at the bottom because of all of the sponsor advertising etc..
> 
> but i understand with mailgroups it is then easyer to read old postings because the text is in the right 
> order. anyways i personally find it more comfortable to write/read the latest thing on top of a mail. 
> (the lower part only being for reference if anyone is not familiar with it).
> 
> but of course i will join the majority and from now on write on the bottom.
> 
> 
> 
> i have tested the drill i wanted to put on the new press.
> it is scrap.
> the carbide bits will never withstand this.
> it is out of center....
> 
> 
> i will go to the tool shop tomorrow, see their minidrill products.
> the proxxon drill presses are very nice (and ready made) but also much more expensive than the hand 
> tools and making the press your own.
> i also have a second (dremel-like) minidrill at home which is much better centered..
> i will maybe use this after closer inspection.
> 


The small drill presses I've seen for a few hundred dollars have 
not been very stable compared to the thing I made. As I said, its 
a first design and there are much better ways do go about 
building a pivoting type drill press. I haven't seen a proxxon 
drill spindle but from the web page you gave they look better 
made than a Dremal. You have to check roundout.

The arc radius can be made smaller than 680 mm as I have done. 
I'd say a radius of 400 mm would be ok for drilling few mm deep.

A bit of math's shows the amount the drill moves out of position 
due to the arc is equal to  r - sqrt(r^2 - h^2)
Where r is arc radius and h is the depth the drill enters the 
PCB. So if r = 400 and h = 5 you get 0.031 mm or 1.2 mils.

I'm sure carbide drill bits can survive 0.03mm of movement.

A simpler approach for a pivot is to use two "rod end" bearings 
at the rear of the base. A 16 mm piece of threaded bar can be 
bent into a V or U shape to make up the main arm. Each end of the 
threaded bar is screwed to a female rod end bearing. Two vertical 
posts made from 16 mm bolts are mounted at the rear of the base. 
The opening of each rod end bearing go on these posts, and 
tightened up with nuts on either side. The advantage of using rod 
ends is they do not have to be aligned and you get perfect stable 
rotation along the axis between the two centers of each rod end 
sphere. You can also adjust the height of each rod end which 
allows easy alignment of the drill in that axis.

  |---------------------|
  |  O              O <-|-- 16 mm threaded posts
  |   \\           // <-|-- 16 mm female rod ends
  |    \          /     |
  |     \        / <----|-- 16 mm threaded bar
  |      \      /       |
  |       \____/        |
  |       |/  \|        |
  |       |\__/|  <-----|-- drill spindle
  |        ----         |   mounted to bar
  |                     |
  |                     |
  |                     |<- machine base
  |---------------------|


For drawings of rod ends see http://www.skf.com
Rod ends are relativly cheap and should be available from any 
bearing supplier.


Adam

In a message dated 5/20/2003 8:15:09 PM Central Standard Time, 
adam_seychell@... writes:

> Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com (file name "payback.com") then why 
> has no one else on this group received this attachemnt, including 
> myself ?
> 

It apparently was from another group I belong to, and attached itself to ALL 
my downloads until I figured out what was going on.  I had to DELETE all 
AOL-anything, and load it fresh!  It had actually even ceased working 
properly!  A hard-to-define mess!  But a list-owner in another group found 
it, too, and changed some access protocol, etc.  I am not QUITE geeky enough 
to understand ALL that, only some.

Oh, and the file name CHANGED TO "sa.payment.aol.com".   not "@AOL..." BUT 
".AOL..."!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

21.05.2003 06:29:20, Adam Seychell <adam_seychell@...> wrote:

>
>
>Stefan Trethan wrote:
>> 20.05.2003 16:00:06, "Steve" <alienrelics@...> wrote:
>> 
>
>> 
>> thanks for the pictures. now it is much clearer how you operate it.
>> 
>> @steve:
>> in my browser the apostrophe was no problem.
>> but tinyurl takes a lot time to redirect. ;-)
>> 
>> @markus:
>> ok, i will regard this request.
>> i didn't think about it a lot.
>> normally i answer all emails on top.
>> 
>> i find it a little strange to have to scroll down and search the whole email for the reply (which is 
in 
>> between and not at the bottom because of all of the sponsor advertising etc..
>> 
>> but i understand with mailgroups it is then easyer to read old postings because the text is in the 
right 
>> order. anyways i personally find it more comfortable to write/read the latest thing on top of a mail. 
>> (the lower part only being for reference if anyone is not familiar with it).
>> 
>> but of course i will join the majority and from now on write on the bottom.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> i have tested the drill i wanted to put on the new press.
>> it is scrap.
>> the carbide bits will never withstand this.
>> it is out of center....
>> 
>> 
>> i will go to the tool shop tomorrow, see their minidrill products.
>> the proxxon drill presses are very nice (and ready made) but also much more expensive than the hand 
>> tools and making the press your own.
>> i also have a second (dremel-like) minidrill at home which is much better centered..
>> i will maybe use this after closer inspection.
>> 
>
>
>The small drill presses I've seen for a few hundred dollars have 
>not been very stable compared to the thing I made. As I said, its 
>a first design and there are much better ways do go about 
>building a pivoting type drill press. I haven't seen a proxxon 
>drill spindle but from the web page you gave they look better 
>made than a Dremal. You have to check roundout.
>
>The arc radius can be made smaller than 680 mm as I have done. 
>I'd say a radius of 400 mm would be ok for drilling few mm deep.
>
>A bit of math's shows the amount the drill moves out of position 
>due to the arc is equal to  r - sqrt(r^2 - h^2)
>Where r is arc radius and h is the depth the drill enters the 
>PCB. So if r = 400 and h = 5 you get 0.031 mm or 1.2 mils.
>
>I'm sure carbide drill bits can survive 0.03mm of movement.
>
>A simpler approach for a pivot is to use two "rod end" bearings 
>at the rear of the base. A 16 mm piece of threaded bar can be 
>bent into a V or U shape to make up the main arm. Each end of the 
>threaded bar is screwed to a female rod end bearing. Two vertical 
>posts made from 16 mm bolts are mounted at the rear of the base. 
>The opening of each rod end bearing go on these posts, and 
>tightened up with nuts on either side. The advantage of using rod 
>ends is they do not have to be aligned and you get perfect stable 
>rotation along the axis between the two centers of each rod end 
>sphere. You can also adjust the height of each rod end which 
>allows easy alignment of the drill in that axis.
>
>  |---------------------|
>  |  O              O <-|-- 16 mm threaded posts
>  |   \\           // <-|-- 16 mm female rod ends
>  |    \          /     |
>  |     \        / <----|-- 16 mm threaded bar
>  |      \      /       |
>  |       \____/        |
>  |       |/  \|        |
>  |       |\__/|  <-----|-- drill spindle
>  |        ----         |   mounted to bar
>  |                     |
>  |                     |
>  |                     |<- machine base
>  |---------------------|
>
>
>For drawings of rod ends see http://www.skf.com
>Rod ends are relativly cheap and should be available from any 
>bearing supplier.
>
>
>Adam
>

interesting idea!
but i don't think i have rod end bearings at home.
i also think they have lot of clearance (sure when they are old, maybe new ones haven't).
you sometimes have to change them on the car's steering assembly (to pass security inspection).
they test them by simply pressing the ball in the hull and when there is too much clearance you have to 
get new ones.


do you think there is no clearance in rod end bearings when they are new for horizontal movement?


i will maybe construct it this way, but my idea with the needle printer linear rails is not fully off 
yet.


the problem: i have no suitable drilling machine found at the tool shop i was today.
they only have dremel and "minitool", each not good quality (dremel has aluminium collars).

they don't have the proxxon tools which i think is better.

i can buy the proxxon drill at a mail order company but so i can't get my hands on it prior to buying to 
inspect it closely. 


as you see i won't start building before i don't have a suitable drill.

thanks for the information..

regards
stefan

>the problem: i have no suitable drilling machine found at the tool shop i was today.
>they only have dremel and "minitool", each not good quality (dremel has aluminium collars).
>
>they don't have the proxxon tools which i think is better.
>
>i can buy the proxxon drill at a mail order company but so i can't get my hands on it prior to buying to 
>inspect it closely. 

Maybe it pay's off to call proxxon at their headquarter and ask for
local suppliers. Here in Swizterland where I live you really find them
in virtually any place selling hobbyist and homeworker stuff.

Markus

Hello to everyone.

 

My name is Marty Grove, and I have been around the printed circuit board
manufacturing business for quite a few years.  I found this group a few
weeks ago when searching Yahoo groups for "printed circuit board".  I have
been lurking ever since, and I'm fascinated at what several of you are
accomplishing!

 

Anyway, one question I do have is: what are you doing with the circuit
boards you are building?  Are they for private use, are you selling them
(kind of like a small-scale quick-turn business), or is this simply a hobby.
to see it's possible to make quality boards using homebrew techniques?  I'm
simply curious about this.

 

Anyway, all the best.  Hope you all don't mind if I sit back and watch all
of your progress.  I might jump in from time to time to ask additional
questions, and who knows. I might start making some boards of my own out in
the garage!

 

Marty

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

has anyone thought of a dental turbine?

i have seen them on ebay and i'm wodering which system they use (shaft diameter of tool).
and if they can be of any use for pcb drilling.

maybe this is just a silly idea.. all i know is they have a angled head.
my teeth are quite good, i haven't been at a dentist for quite a while..

maybe anyone knows more...

regards
stefan

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Marty Grove" <MartyGrove@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 12:56 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Quick introduction and question


> Hello to everyone.
>
>
>
> My name is Marty Grove, and I have been around the printed circuit board
> manufacturing business for quite a few years.  I found this group a few
> weeks ago when searching Yahoo groups for "printed circuit board".  I have
> been lurking ever since, and I'm fascinated at what several of you are
> accomplishing!
>
>
>
> Anyway, one question I do have is: what are you doing with the circuit
> boards you are building?  Are they for private use, are you selling them
> (kind of like a small-scale quick-turn business), or is this simply a
hobby.
> to see it's possible to make quality boards using homebrew techniques?
I'm
> simply curious about this.
>

Mine are mostly for experimenting with interesting chips. I also sell a few
from time to time. I also made the odd PCB  for use where I worked
previously - easier and quicker than getting prototypes made.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
leon_heller@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

On Wed, 21 May 2003 07:56:44 -0400, you wrote:

>Hello to everyone.
>
> 
>
>My name is Marty Grove, and I have been around the printed circuit board
>manufacturing business for quite a few years.  I found this group a few
>weeks ago when searching Yahoo groups for "printed circuit board".  I have
>been lurking ever since, and I'm fascinated at what several of you are
>accomplishing!
>
> 
>
>Anyway, one question I do have is: what are you doing with the circuit
>boards you are building?  Are they for private use, are you selling them
>(kind of like a small-scale quick-turn business), or is this simply a hobby.
>to see it's possible to make quality boards using homebrew techniques?  I'm
>simply curious about this.
>
> 
>
>Anyway, all the best.  Hope you all don't mind if I sit back and watch all
>of your progress.  I might jump in from time to time to ask additional
>questions, and who knows. I might start making some boards of my own out in
>the garage!
>
> 
>
>Marty

Marty,

Welcome :-)

I thnink you will find many why people joined this list. Personally
I'm here to learn about how other people  do their PCB's always
looking for ways to improve my own technology. The reason I make my
own PCB's is that I'm often in the need of getting prototypes and
where I live (Switzerland) this is either VERY time consuming (3 weeks
and up) or then extremly expensive (i.e. a 3X3" four layer board is
available in 3 days, but the PCB (no parts no soldering no fine pitch
no small holes just the PCB) would then cost ~$1500 - a bit pricey :-(

Anyways, I'm currently building a plating through station (which I
thought I would be finish some time ago alreay but that's how it often
goes) and I do hope that thereafter I will be able to produce four
layer boards for prototypes on my own. Of course, plating through will
also allow me to speed up getting two layer boards done. As
previousely promised, I will put picutres of it online as soon as I'm
ready (no, I don't say today or this weekend anymore :-)) )

Markus

I have a small company doing r&d in human-computer interaction devices that
consist of hardware, firmware and host computer software.  I do my own pcb
fabrication to quickly produce and modify very compact circuit boards for
prototypes.  A typical board might measure 1.5cm by 3cm, and have surface
mount parts and sensors on both sides - a total of 15  to 25 parts.  I can
produce a board ready for parts mounting, starting from schematic, in less
than two hours.  I hand solder the parts.

- Chris Graham

I use a variety of methods for obtaining my own boards, from sending them out to a fab house (when I need the appearance and finish that a board house can provide) to scratching the copper off with an exacto knife to make isolated pads for quick testing. 

I have a PCB milling machine at work for making prototypes, but that limits me to two layers and I have to solder wires in to make vias (or buying those little eyelets, which I hate.)  I layout evaluation boards for testing new IC's at work, and when we are using them internally, we use our in-house milled boards.  If there is a remote chance that a customer may see the boards, then we send them out to be fabbed. 

The primary reason I joined was to see what was out there, and find out what others are doing.   I would like to build a ferric chloride etch system for home (not  high priority, because I have access to the mill at work and the boss encourages me to do my personal projects on it to improve my own skill with the machine) in the near future, and have learned quite a bit about the various etch methods that are used from this group. 

Peter 



	MartyGrove@...
	05/21/2003 05:23 AM
		 
		 To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com@Internet
		 cc: (bcc: Peter Welty/Americas/NSC)

		 Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Quick introduction and question

Hello to everyone.

 

My name is Marty Grove, and I have been around the printed circuit board
manufacturing business for quite a few years.  I found this group a few
weeks ago when searching Yahoo groups for "printed circuit board".  I have
been lurking ever since, and I'm fascinated at what several of you are
accomplishing!

 

Anyway, one question I do have is: what are you doing with the circuit
boards you are building?  Are they for private use, are you selling them
(kind of like a small-scale quick-turn business), or is this simply a hobby.
to see it's possible to make quality boards using homebrew techniques?  I'm
simply curious about this.

 

Anyway, all the best.  Hope you all don't mind if I sit back and watch all
of your progress.  I might jump in from time to time to ask additional
questions, and who knows. I might start making some boards of my own out in
the garage!

 

Marty

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Hi Marty,

I make mostly audio effect circuit boards for musical instruments, specially guitar effects.

www.tonepad.com

:-)

Fp

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Marty Grove 
  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 5:56 AM
  Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Quick introduction and question


  Hello to everyone.



  My name is Marty Grove, and I have been around the printed circuit board
  manufacturing business for quite a few years.  I found this group a few
  weeks ago when searching Yahoo groups for "printed circuit board".  I have
  been lurking ever since, and I'm fascinated at what several of you are
  accomplishing!



  Anyway, one question I do have is: what are you doing with the circuit
  boards you are building?  Are they for private use, are you selling them
  (kind of like a small-scale quick-turn business), or is this simply a hobby.
  to see it's possible to make quality boards using homebrew techniques?  I'm
  simply curious about this.



  Anyway, all the best.  Hope you all don't mind if I sit back and watch all
  of your progress.  I might jump in from time to time to ask additional
  questions, and who knows. I might start making some boards of my own out in
  the garage!



  Marty


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At this stage this is just a hobby for me. I hope to eventually be
able to do some small production runs of things of interest to other
hobbyists. If eventually this becomes a (small) money making venture,
fine, but if not, I am enjoying the learning/hobby aspects. So far I
am making single sided boards with laser printed Dyna-Art paper, but
hope to work up to double sided. I also hope to try some silk
screening with some (cleaned and reused) ancient silk screens a former
board maker donated to me. I have no deadlines, and work at it as
time, interest and energy allow.

Grant

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Marty Grove" <MartyGrove@c...>
wrote:
> Hello to everyone.
>  
> 
> My name is Marty Grove, and I have been around the printed circuit board
> manufacturing business for quite a few years.  [snip]
> 
> Anyway, one question I do have is: what are you doing with the circuit
> boards you are building?  Are they for private use, are you selling them
> (kind of like a small-scale quick-turn business), or is this simply
a hobby.
> to see it's possible to make quality boards using homebrew
techniques?  I'm
> simply curious about this.
[snip]
> 
> Marty

21.05.2003 13:56:44, "Marty Grove" <MartyGrove@...> wrote:

>Hello to everyone.
>
> 
>
>My name is Marty Grove, and I have been around the printed circuit board
>manufacturing business for quite a few years.  I found this group a few
>weeks ago when searching Yahoo groups for "printed circuit board".  I have
>been lurking ever since, and I'm fascinated at what several of you are
>accomplishing!
>
> 
>
>Anyway, one question I do have is: what are you doing with the circuit
>boards you are building?  Are they for private use, are you selling them
>(kind of like a small-scale quick-turn business), or is this simply a hobby.
>to see it's possible to make quality boards using homebrew techniques?  I'm
>simply curious about this.
>
> 
>
>Anyway, all the best.  Hope you all don't mind if I sit back and watch all
>of your progress.  I might jump in from time to time to ask additional
>questions, and who knows. I might start making some boards of my own out in
>the garage!
>
> 
>
>Marty
>
> 

hi

for me this is also mostly a hobby.
it resulted from the fact the the teacher which supervised the pcb making in the school i was when the 
demand for pcbs arised was very dislikeable.
i did want to make pcbs, and going to this *** every time was no option for me.
and i'm also always open to try things myself.

its not too complicated as you all know and i did get the same results as i would have got from having 
it done in this scool at home. i made regularly pcbs in this time, at graduating we all have to make 
some projects, much with pcb involved. i had then the great advantage of not having to ask this guy for 
making it (don't think for free!! we had to pay!) and waiting for his grace to have it done in two weeks 
(he didn't do anything, only commanded a few pupils from the entry classes to do it!). i did my pcbs 
(made dds generator dsp programmed for several kinds of modulation) and also some pcbs for collegues 
this time when graduating.
i also did and still do sell pcbs if frieds need them, but they don't have to pay much..
and demand is low..

as i'm studying now the demand from others for pcbs got actually lower (maybe because fewer people in my 
surroundings know i can do that). so i mostly make my own pcbs.

i know i would get the best results with some optical process (as i did in the past).

but i really want to try everything.

so i tried out every process i know, or will try it in the future, desperate to find THE method.
i really would enjoy holding the pcb in my hands a few minutes after the desigh gets finished.


i would like to do some more pcbs for other people but the demand seems very low and promoting it a lot 
risks getting annoyed by fiscal authorities.
so i keep it simply as a hobby which i try to perfect.


regards
stefan

At 12:46 PM 21/05/03, you wrote:
>At this stage this is just a hobby for me. I hope to eventually be
>able to do some small production runs of things of interest to other
>hobbyists. If eventually this becomes a (small) money making venture,
>fine, but if not, I am enjoying the learning/hobby aspects. So far I
>am making single sided boards with laser printed Dyna-Art paper, but
>hope to work up to double sided. I also hope to try some silk
>screening with some (cleaned and reused) ancient silk screens a former
>board maker donated to me. I have no deadlines, and work at it as
>time, interest and energy allow.
>
>Grant

Grant

If you have the silk screens you should look into the process a few people
use. They do the photo exposed and developed silk screen then simply
silk screen on either solder paste or a thin tar like material. I don't 
know exactly
what the tar stuff is and I wish I did. We had one local guy who did proto 
boards
using the screens and they were perfect even the double sided as it was easy
to register positions on everything.

This is a bit more useful if you have the equipment and if you are doing 
more than
a couple of boards. I looked at getting the silkscreen setup a few years 
back and
it was going to cost too much for the few boards I needed. I just ordered 
500 boards
from a house and now I wish I had got the stuff. would have saved a few $$

Dave

In a message dated 5/21/2003 6:59:00 AM Central Standard Time, 
MartyGrove@cfl.rr.com writes:

> Anyway, one question I do have is: what are you doing with the circuit 
> boards you are building?  Are they for private use, are you selling them (kind of 
> like a small-scale quick-turn business), or is this simply a hobby to see 
> it's possible to make quality boards using homebrew techniques?  I'm simply 
> curious about this.
> 
Marty:

Another old duffer's input on this point:  Once upon a time when I was 
younger than today...  when I had a professional job where I had to make more than 
two or three identical circuits, I BOUGHT PTH boards.  I did the art 2x using 
Bishop Graphics stick-on patterns and tape.  Still have about $500 worth of all 
that, and still NO PCB software!  

When I need ONE relatively simple one- or two-sided board, up to, say, 6 
DIP's, max, I did 'em myself using Radio Shack FeCl³.  I tried Ammonium Persulfate 
once, but NO WAY at home, ever again!  Whew!

Sad it's not economical to get a professional house to do a 4"x6" board with 
up to 200 holes, PTH, for less than $100!

I have, of late, learned to appreciate the wonders of reTIREment!               
Jan Rowland


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Stefan Trethan wrote:
 > interesting idea!
 > but i don't think i have rod end bearings at home.

You can buy them from bearing suppliers. When I was looking at
using rod ends for this project a few years ago I remember them
being not expensive. I will one day redo my drill machine so its 
more compact and lighter.

  > do you think there is no clearance in rod end bearings when
 > they are new for horizontal movement?
  >

Rod ends are just a plain spherical bearing inside a housing
designed go on the end of a rod, I wouldn't expect any noticeable
play. I haven't seen them myself, but I've been told there isn't
any play you can feel.

here is a picture.
http://www.qbcbearings.com/RFQ/B610HTML/B610P161.html

 > i can buy the proxxon drill at a mail order company but so i 
can't get my hands on it prior to buying to
 > inspect it closely.
 >

Its difficult to know the quality without looking at one and 
testing it. Maybe you can contact proxxon and find out more 
detailed specifications of the drill.

 >
 > as you see i won't start building before i don't have a 
suitable drill.
 >

yes, I would do the same. The mount for the dill may not be easy 
to make without the right tools.

Correct -- rod ends are very slop-free.  They are a very common item for 
suspensions on hot-rods, race cars, etc.  You can get some good ones for 
approx $5 each and up.  Check out www.summitracing.com , 
www.stockcarproducts.com , www.jegs.com, etc.  Specifically the ones from 
Competition Engineering are usually excellent value for money, and Stock Car 
Products' prices are also excellent.

Cheers,
-Neil.


On Wednesday 21 May 2003 23:31, Adam Seychell scribbled:

> Stefan Trethan wrote:
>  > interesting idea!
>  > but i don't think i have rod end bearings at home.
>
> You can buy them from bearing suppliers. When I was looking at
> using rod ends for this project a few years ago I remember them
> being not expensive. I will one day redo my drill machine so its
> more compact and lighter.
>
>   > do you think there is no clearance in rod end bearings when
>  >
>  > they are new for horizontal movement?
>
> Rod ends are just a plain spherical bearing inside a housing
> designed go on the end of a rod, I wouldn't expect any noticeable
> play. I haven't seen them myself, but I've been told there isn't
> any play you can feel.
>
> here is a picture.
> http://www.qbcbearings.com/RFQ/B610HTML/B610P161.html
>
>  > i can buy the proxxon drill at a mail order company but so i
>
> can't get my hands on it prior to buying to
>
>  > inspect it closely.
>
> Its difficult to know the quality without looking at one and
> testing it. Maybe you can contact proxxon and find out more
> detailed specifications of the drill.
>
>  > as you see i won't start building before i don't have a
>
> suitable drill.
>
>
> yes, I would do the same. The mount for the dill may not be easy
> to make without the right tools.
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses]

Here's a U.S. Source for rod-ends:

http://linkage.tuthill.com/productcatalog/ 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello to everyone.

It's done! For those interested, here's the link showing the first
pictures of my homebrew through plating station.

http://www.myhome.ch/mzingg/pcbstuff/tps/

Enjoy!

The station is not ready to be filled with the chemicals etc. after
which the frist test can be made.

Markus

HI Markus,

That looks like a very impressive setup. 
Very neat.
Will you share the details with us, so that we can do the same?
How did you join the plastic compartments?
What will happen if a joint leaks at night (or day) and chemicals 
leak out into the electronics?
How do you initiate the plating onto the non conductive pcb surface 
(hole walls)?

John M...
======================


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Markus Zingg <m.zingg@n...> 
wrote:

> Hello to everyone.
> 
> It's done! For those interested, here's the link showing the first
> pictures of my homebrew through plating station.
> 
> http://www.myhome.ch/mzingg/pcbstuff/tps/
> 
> Enjoy!
> 
> The station is not ready to be filled with the chemicals etc. after
> which the frist test can be made.
> 
> Markus

John Myszkowski wrote:
> HI Markus,
> 
> That looks like a very impressive setup. 

I agree, he has put quite some effort into the apparatus.
However I really think he shouldn't of tried building the 
entire thing in one step, unless he had lots of experienced 
with the process and is familiar with copper plating tank 
design. For example it looks like he plans not to fully 
suberge the copper anodes and will inevidably get large 
amounts of oxidation at the air liquid interface. He also 
has some mild steel and brass around that area. Unless he 
will NEVER spill a drop of solution, this will corrode and 
ultimatly contaminate his bath will iron(II). As for the 
other tanks which I assume are for the electroless copper 
stages, I don't have any experience with so thats a whole 
different set of challenges he must deal with.

> What will happen if a joint leaks at night (or day) and chemicals 
> leak out into the electronics?

Imagine conductive salt soluions (especially the sulfuric 
acid copper plating at 4.8 ohm-cm at 20\ufffdC) shorting the 
transformer and blowing the fuse, which I sure hope he has 
installed one.

Adam

Markus,
Look good, however the acid fumes will attack you electronics ! I'd say
keep the electronics away from the acid by at least 3-4 feet...
How do you plan to activate the holes ?
Hans Wedemeyer

Markus Zingg wrote:

>  Hello to everyone.
>
> It's done! For those interested, here's the link showing the first
> pictures of my homebrew through plating station.
>
> http://www.myhome.ch/mzingg/pcbstuff/tps/
>
> Enjoy!
>
> The station is not ready to be filled with the chemicals etc. after
> which the frist test can be made.
>
> Markus
>
>
>                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>
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>
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>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi John 

>HI Markus,
>
>That looks like a very impressive setup. 
>Very neat.

Thanks for the flowers. 

>Will you share the details with us, so that we can do the same?

Yes of course. I meanwhile created a better page. It was 3:30 am when
I put the pictures online :-)

It's still the same link though

http://www.myhome.ch/mzingg/pcbstuff/tps/

>How did you join the plastic compartments?

compartments? You mean the tanks? If so, they are actually made of so
called "hobby glass". I just cutted a stipe of 25 x 60 cm, then bent
it into a "U" shape using a hot air gun. The sides then were weldered
with this hot air gun also. Please forigve me, english is not my
native language, the above terms merly form a word by word translation
from german. That said I would apreciate if you correct me here if
needed.

>What will happen if a joint leaks at night (or day) and chemicals 
>leak out into the electronics?

The main plastic box is acid save. It's big enough so as THREE tanks
could leak at the same time before the level would even reach the
electronics. To save time (I really need some PCB's now) I decided to
NOT seal the frame cells at this point in time. If time permits I may
add this but the chance that three tanks leak at the same time is IMHO
not that big.

>How do you initiate the plating onto the non conductive pcb surface 
>(hole walls)?

I use mostly redy made chemicals from a german company called bungard.
They also sell a plating through station and I somehow copied some
ideas from there. It's much bigger though and also much more exensive.
However, Bungard sells a chemicals starter kit for this station (which
also is having 5 baths) for EUR 645.- Yikes, that's expensive, but it
last a while. Actually it allows to completely fill my machine four
times. According to results of a friend of mine a load is enough for
almost a year, so I think considering this it's not that expensive.
While we are at it. The machine of course also was not "free". I did
spent more money than needed cause I had to figure out solutions to a
wide range of problems and therefore bought stuff I ended up not
using, had to redo things etc. I think if someone builds a station
acording to the info found on the pages he can save a lot of money AND
TIME. I invested ~100 hours up to now.

Markus

>John M...
>======================
>
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Markus Zingg <m.zingg@n...> 
>wrote:
>> Hello to everyone.
>> 
>> It's done! For those interested, here's the link showing the first
>> pictures of my homebrew through plating station.
>> 
>> http://www.myhome.ch/mzingg/pcbstuff/tps/
>> 
>> Enjoy!
>> 
>> The station is not ready to be filled with the chemicals etc. after
>> which the frist test can be made.
>> 
>> Markus
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> 
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
>

Hi Adam

First off - let me thank you for the critical feedback. I am in fact
not experineced and therefore thankfull for any information.
>
>
>John Myszkowski wrote:
>> HI Markus,
>> 
>> That looks like a very impressive setup. 
>
>I agree, he has put quite some effort into the apparatus.
>However I really think he shouldn't of tried building the 
>entire thing in one step, unless he had lots of experienced 
>with the process and is familiar with copper plating tank 
>design. For example it looks like he plans not to fully 
>suberge the copper anodes and will inevidably get large 
>amounts of oxidation at the air liquid interface.

I figure I could change the setup so as all of the anodes would be
floded. However, I don't understand how I should avoid that copper is
not covered by the acid on one hand, but not having any other material
reach the acid on the other hand. That said, even if I would have
copper screws or such holding the anode plates there would be an
air/copper interface - right? Is it the size of the interface forming
the probelm?

> He also 
>has some mild steel and brass around that area. Unless he 
>will NEVER spill a drop of solution, this will corrode and 
>ultimatly contaminate his bath will iron(II).

I of course do not intend to spill a drop. I may will however cover
the steel with a plastic film or else change to stainless steel or
such.

> As for the 
>other tanks which I assume are for the electroless copper 
>stages, I don't have any experience with so thats a whole 
>different set of challenges he must deal with.

This part is easier cause I'm using ready made mixtures of these baths
(well, some of the chemicals must be mixed with demineralised water
but it's easy).

>> What will happen if a joint leaks at night (or day) and chemicals 
>> leak out into the electronics?
>
>Imagine conductive salt soluions (especially the sulfuric 
>acid copper plating at 4.8 ohm-cm at 20°C) shorting the 
>transformer and blowing the fuse, which I sure hope he has 
>installed one.

This should not happen. That said, three tanks can leak at the same
time before the level would reach the transformer. The area of the box
around the tanks forms enough room to hold acid or whatever if a
leakage ocures. As mentioned elsewere it would be fairly easy to also
seal the frame cells and I probably will do this if time permits.
However like you also mentioned I may did too much already and I think
it's better if I now first get some experinece with palting through et
all. Thereafter I'm sure I will have to change this and that.

Markus

Hi Hans

>Markus,
>Look good, however the acid fumes will attack you electronics ! I'd say
>keep the electronics away from the acid by at least 3-4 feet...

I'm considering turning the frame the other way round so as the
electrolytic tank is on the oposit end of the box. However I'm not
sure if it can be seen on the pictures propperly. The electronics of
course is in it's own housing. Well, there is the border between the
tank and the pannel cover I'm going to seal. If I do so I think fumes
will not so easily get there but then you are the experts. I really do
not have any experience yet, but as you can see I'm more than willing
to change this :-)

>How do you plan to activate the holes ?

As elsewhere mentioned, I'm using ready made mixtures from Bungard
electronics. A friend of mine is having a hobbyist kind of station
that is having four baths only and he get's VERY good results. He
actually motivated me of building my own station and apart of all the
critics (which I apreciate of course) I have the impression that my
station is still much better than the one he uses.

Markus

>Imagine conductive salt soluions (especially the sulfuric 
>acid copper plating at 4.8 ohm-cm at 20°C) shorting the 
>transformer and blowing the fuse, which I sure hope he has 
>installed one.

Adam, I forgot to say that yes , there is of course a fuse. You can
see it on the pages under "closeups" and then "the pannel".

Markus

Markus,
Sorry I got into this thread late.
If you are using acid in the bath, I'd say keep the electronics
completely away from the box. It can get messy.
I'm interested to see the unit in working mode.
What are the covers or "bags" made of ?
Can you post a link to Bungard electronics please ?
Where can I get complete details of this device ?
Thanks.
Hans Wedemeyer


Markus Zingg wrote:

>  Hi Hans
>
> >Markus,
> >Look good, however the acid fumes will attack you electronics ! I'd
> say
> >keep the electronics away from the acid by at least 3-4 feet...
>
> I'm considering turning the frame the other way round so as the
> electrolytic tank is on the oposit end of the box. However I'm not
> sure if it can be seen on the pictures propperly. The electronics of
> course is in it's own housing. Well, there is the border between the
> tank and the pannel cover I'm going to seal. If I do so I think fumes
> will not so easily get there but then you are the experts. I really do
>
> not have any experience yet, but as you can see I'm more than willing
> to change this :-)
>
> >How do you plan to activate the holes ?
>
> As elsewhere mentioned, I'm using ready made mixtures from Bungard
> electronics. A friend of mine is having a hobbyist kind of station
> that is having four baths only and he get's VERY good results. He
> actually motivated me of building my own station and apart of all the
> critics (which I apreciate of course) I have the impression that my
> station is still much better than the one he uses.
>
> Markus
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Hans

Please read below.

>Markus,
>Sorry I got into this thread late.
>If you are using acid in the bath, I'd say keep the electronics
>completely away from the box. It can get messy.

I was thinking about this, but then the unit my friend uses also is
having the electronics inside - no problems yet. Well, I will change
it as soon as I see the first problems.

>I'm interested to see the unit in working mode.

Me too :-) Please allow some more time. I just put the pages online
and creating them - even if they were simple - also took some time.

>What are the covers or "bags" made of ?

Are you asking about the anode bags? The anodes as well as the bags
surrounding them can be bought at Bungard. They were not that
expensive. The way it looks it's some sort of glass fiber epoxy kind
of tissue.

>Can you post a link to Bungard electronics please ?

http://www.bungard.de/home.htm 

>Where can I get complete details of this device ?

Currently the page is what's published. Note, I finished the device 11
hours ago. No wonder there is not yet much documentation available :-)
Feel free to ask whatever you want to know and in case you get the
impressio that you would start to distub the list feel also free to
e-mail me directly.

Markus

>Thanks.
>Hans Wedemeyer
>
>
>Markus Zingg wrote:
>
>>  Hi Hans
>>
>> >Markus,
>> >Look good, however the acid fumes will attack you electronics ! I'd
>> say
>> >keep the electronics away from the acid by at least 3-4 feet...
>>
>> I'm considering turning the frame the other way round so as the
>> electrolytic tank is on the oposit end of the box. However I'm not
>> sure if it can be seen on the pictures propperly. The electronics of
>> course is in it's own housing. Well, there is the border between the
>> tank and the pannel cover I'm going to seal. If I do so I think fumes
>> will not so easily get there but then you are the experts. I really do
>>
>> not have any experience yet, but as you can see I'm more than willing
>> to change this :-)
>>
>> >How do you plan to activate the holes ?
>>
>> As elsewhere mentioned, I'm using ready made mixtures from Bungard
>> electronics. A friend of mine is having a hobbyist kind of station
>> that is having four baths only and he get's VERY good results. He
>> actually motivated me of building my own station and apart of all the
>> critics (which I apreciate of course) I have the impression that my
>> station is still much better than the one he uses.
>>
>> Markus
>>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> 
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
>

Markus Zingg wrote:
> Hi Adam
> 
> First off - let me thank you for the critical feedback. I am in fact
> not experineced and therefore thankfull for any information.

I can give tips on the acid copper plating since I have a 
bit of experience with this. I have been doing small amounts 
of copper plating for about 2 years now. I've been through 
about 3 major tanks revisions before I had something working.

> I figure I could change the setup so as all of the anodes would be
> floded. However, I don't understand how I should avoid that copper is
> not covered by the acid on one hand, but not having any other material
> reach the acid on the other hand. 

The corrosion is due to a electrochemical reaction happening 
at the air/liquid interface. Its slow, and may take a year 
for the copper you have to completely corrode away.

You hang the anode plates by pieces of PVC insulated solid 
copper wire. The wire can be attached by solder and then 
sealed with glue. The glues I've had most success with are 
PVC solvent cement or polyurethane sealant. Epoxy can lift 
over time.
Alternatively you can drill small holes into the copper 
plates a bit larger diameter of the solid wire and use a 
center punch and hammer to crimp around the wire.
Commercial platers use titanum mesh baskets and simply
fill them with copper nugets. Or they might use titanium
clamps on solid copper bars.



> 
> I of course do not intend to spill a drop. I may will however cover
> the steel with a plastic film or else change to stainless steel or
> such.

Stainless is good around sulfuric acid, but do not have it 
permanently immersed. Stainless corrodes slowly when 
immersed, but is very resistant to splashes and being wet by 
the acid. It has something to do with the dissolved oxygen 
from the air maintaining the surface passivation.

Every plating tank I've seen, including mine, will over time 
  become surrounded by dried salts and plating chemicals 
because its very hard to completely avoid splashes and drips.
You should be agitating the plating solution by air bubbles 
or motorized PCB motion. A still solution will be limited to 
very slow plating rates due to limited copper ion diffusion 
at the surface of the PCB. An attempt to plate at normal 
current density (1 ~ 2 A/dm^2) in still solution will only 
give you rough, and "burned" deposts. Air bubbles are simple 
to setup but create fine splashes of copper electrolyte 
solution.  These splashes must be stopped by some type of lid.

Happy plating.

Adam

Hi Adam

>
>
>Markus Zingg wrote:
>> Hi Adam
>> 
>> First off - let me thank you for the critical feedback. I am in fact
>> not experineced and therefore thankfull for any information.
>
>I can give tips on the acid copper plating since I have a 
>bit of experience with this. I have been doing small amounts 
>of copper plating for about 2 years now. I've been through 
>about 3 major tanks revisions before I had something working.

Well, I will soon be able to tell wether mine works or not :-)

>> I figure I could change the setup so as all of the anodes would be
>> floded. However, I don't understand how I should avoid that copper is
>> not covered by the acid on one hand, but not having any other material
>> reach the acid on the other hand. 
>
>The corrosion is due to a electrochemical reaction happening 
>at the air/liquid interface. Its slow, and may take a year 
>for the copper you have to completely corrode away.
>
>You hang the anode plates by pieces of PVC insulated solid 
>copper wire. The wire can be attached by solder and then 
>sealed with glue. The glues I've had most success with are 
>PVC solvent cement or polyurethane sealant. Epoxy can lift 
>over time.
>Alternatively you can drill small holes into the copper 
>plates a bit larger diameter of the solid wire and use a 
>center punch and hammer to crimp around the wire.
>Commercial platers use titanum mesh baskets and simply
>fill them with copper nugets. Or they might use titanium
>clamps on solid copper bars.

Thanks for the hints. I will consider them, but think it's best if I
now do experiement with what I have. Changing the way the plates are
mounted to what you propose is easy.

>> I of course do not intend to spill a drop. I may will however cover
>> the steel with a plastic film or else change to stainless steel or
>> such.
>
>Stainless is good around sulfuric acid, but do not have it 
>permanently immersed. Stainless corrodes slowly when 
>immersed, but is very resistant to splashes and being wet by 
>the acid. It has something to do with the dissolved oxygen 
>from the air maintaining the surface passivation.
>
>Every plating tank I've seen, including mine, will over time 
>  become surrounded by dried salts and plating chemicals 
>because its very hard to completely avoid splashes and drips.

As you can see on my pages, the machine is very easy to disasemble /
assemble. So, whenever I change the solution I of course will
completely clean the tanks et all. Again, I will surely see what
happens.

>You should be agitating the plating solution by air bubbles 
>or motorized PCB motion. A still solution will be limited to 
>very slow plating rates due to limited copper ion diffusion 
>at the surface of the PCB. An attempt to plate at normal 
>current density (1 ~ 2 A/dm^2) in still solution will only 
>give you rough, and "burned" deposts. Air bubbles are simple 
>to setup but create fine splashes of copper electrolyte 
>solution.  These splashes must be stopped by some type of lid.

My setup includes motorized PCB motion. Thers an excenter wheel that
drives a frame to which the PCB holding mechnism is pluged in. Works
nicely and I even can control the speed of the motion. Adding air
bubbles to the tank would be easy also. However my friend also is
using motorized PCB motion and as mentioned his resutls are stunning. 

>Happy plating.

Thank you - I will start to do some experiments now and post the
results.

Markus

Markus,
Thanks for the link.
Did you download the video from Bungard ? It show the PCB moving in the
plating bath ! Do you have that feature ?

The site is German and I can't read German. When you finish your web
site, could you please post some Part numbers for the item needed from
Bungard ...

BTW Keep the stuff coming here at this forum, it is VERY MUCH on
topic... Good work.

I don't know... 11 hours since it was built and no web page yet !...
Have you been sleeping again .... :-) Thanks I'll wait.

Best regards
Hans Wedemeyer
Houston Texas U.S.A




Markus Zingg wrote:

>  Dear Hans
>
> Please read below.
>
> >Markus,
> >Sorry I got into this thread late.
> >If you are using acid in the bath, I'd say keep the electronics
> >completely away from the box. It can get messy.
>
> I was thinking about this, but then the unit my friend uses also is
> having the electronics inside - no problems yet. Well, I will change
> it as soon as I see the first problems.
>
> >I'm interested to see the unit in working mode.
>
> Me too :-) Please allow some more time. I just put the pages online
> and creating them - even if they were simple - also took some time.
>
> >What are the covers or "bags" made of ?
>
> Are you asking about the anode bags? The anodes as well as the bags
> surrounding them can be bought at Bungard. They were not that
> expensive. The way it looks it's some sort of glass fiber epoxy kind
> of tissue.
>
> >Can you post a link to Bungard electronics please ?
>
> http://www.bungard.de/home.htm
>
> >Where can I get complete details of this device ?
>
> Currently the page is what's published. Note, I finished the device 11
>
> hours ago. No wonder there is not yet much documentation available :-)
>
> Feel free to ask whatever you want to know and in case you get the
> impressio that you would start to distub the list feel also free to
> e-mail me directly.
>
> Markus
>
> >Thanks.
> >Hans Wedemeyer
> >
> >
> >Markus Zingg wrote:
> >
> >>  Hi Hans
> >>
> >> >Markus,
> >> >Look good, however the acid fumes will attack you electronics !
> I'd
> >> say
> >> >keep the electronics away from the acid by at least 3-4 feet...
> >>
> >> I'm considering turning the frame the other way round so as the
> >> electrolytic tank is on the oposit end of the box. However I'm not
> >> sure if it can be seen on the pictures propperly. The electronics
> of
> >> course is in it's own housing. Well, there is the border between
> the
> >> tank and the pannel cover I'm going to seal. If I do so I think
> fumes
> >> will not so easily get there but then you are the experts. I really
> do
> >>
> >> not have any experience yet, but as you can see I'm more than
> willing
> >> to change this :-)
> >>
> >> >How do you plan to activate the holes ?
> >>
> >> As elsewhere mentioned, I'm using ready made mixtures from Bungard
> >> electronics. A friend of mine is having a hobbyist kind of station
> >> that is having four baths only and he get's VERY good results. He
> >> actually motivated me of building my own station and apart of all
> the
> >> critics (which I apreciate of course) I have the impression that my
>
> >> station is still much better than the one he uses.
> >>
> >> Markus
> >>
> >
> >
> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and
> files:
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> >
> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Hans

>Markus,
>Thanks for the link.
>Did you download the video from Bungard ? It show the PCB moving in the
>plating bath ! Do you have that feature ?

Yes, the excenter wheel which you can best see in the "close up"
section of my page showes how it works.

>The site is German and I can't read German. When you finish your web
>site, could you please post some Part numbers for the item needed from
>Bungard ...

Will try to do so. However, at the enty page, there is this british
icon. I was under the impression that you then would see their pages
in english.

>BTW Keep the stuff coming here at this forum, it is VERY MUCH on
>topic... Good work.
>
>I don't know... 11 hours since it was built and no web page yet !...
>Have you been sleeping again .... :-) Thanks I'll wait.

Errr - there IS a page for it. The link I gave meanwhile mutated into
a (simple) page. Well, here it's once again.

http://www.myhome.ch/mzingg/pcbstuff/tps/

Markus

>Best regards
>Hans Wedemeyer
>Houston Texas U.S.A

Huston - nice place. Was there two years ago. I'd love to return.

nice station.

i have the following question:

i don't know much about through hole plating but don't you have to rinse the
board after each chemical?
i wonder how you do this in this unit, do you have water compartments
between the process chemicals (or at least one?)
how do you change the water, how is it disposal handeled? (is the amount
small enough to put it into the sink?)
.

the only pcb "station" i saw was a small unit of bungard, but only used for
etching. it has nice flushing compartments which had small water jets on the
sides... it kept the water fresh by using fresh water at the jets and
disposing off excess.

i think the bags for your electrodes are of the standard woven glass fiber
material used for fiberglass parts (like making wings for smaller aeroplane
etc.)
i can't tell if it is one layer or more but i really think it is this stuff
from the pictures.

one can get this from supplies for making fiber reinforced plastics (planes,
repair of car hull) but also as "fire extinguisher blanked" (is used in
kitchen if fat burns). this is often quite a good quality and maybe easier and
cheaper to get than the stuff used with epoxy.

maybe this is of interest for the ones wanting to make such a unit.

((what does bungard charge for the bags?))


regards
stefan

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Hi Stefan

>nice station.

Thank you. I'm in the process of doing some small changes and hope to
plate through the first PCB tomorrow. What I change is the voltage
regulator aparently get's too hot with slow PCB motor motion and
filled tanks with the biggest PCB inserted. I therefore will move it
from the copper side of the PCB holding the electronics to the other
side and add a reall cooler to it. The other "change" is that I havent
made the tank covers yet. Since I must adapt their size to the tanks
this is easier as long as they are not filled. Then John sugested to
me to also create a second fork made of plastics for the four smaller
tanks (those withouth the electrolytic). Like this there is no danger
to contaminate the paladium bath which is the most critical one.

>i have the following question:
>
>i don't know much about through hole plating but don't you have to rinse the
>board after each chemical?
>i wonder how you do this in this unit, do you have water compartments
>between the process chemicals (or at least one?)
>how do you change the water, how is it disposal handeled? (is the amount
>small enough to put it into the sink?)

Yes, you are right. I considered adding a rinse tank but then decided
against it. The way my station is made allows to change tanks etc. by
just creating a new main frame set. The main problem to me was adding
the jets with all that's needed (water pump, tanks to store used water
et all). Basically what I intend to do is to simply have a bucket full
of water beside the station and after diping the boards into it rinse
them in a regular wash bowl. If I were to copy Bungards wonderfull
station, it probably would have been easier to simply buy one (at EUR
8350 not really an option for me).

>the only pcb "station" i saw was a small unit of bungard, but only used for
>etching. it has nice flushing compartments which had small water jets on the
>sides... it kept the water fresh by using fresh water at the jets and
>disposing off excess.

The station I looked at is called "compacta 30". Again, this unit
can't really be compared to mine considering the price difference. I'm
really looking foreward to operate the station the first time. I will
post pictures of the first PCB's as soon as I have one.

>i think the bags for your electrodes are of the standard woven glass fiber
>material used for fiberglass parts (like making wings for smaller aeroplane
>etc.)
>i can't tell if it is one layer or more but i really think it is this stuff
>from the pictures.

That very well might be. I did not cared too much cause the bags come
along with the anodes which I bought there also.

>one can get this from supplies for making fiber reinforced plastics (planes,
>repair of car hull) but also as "fire extinguisher blanked" (is used in
>kitchen if fat burns). this is often quite a good quality and maybe easier and
>cheaper to get than the stuff used with epoxy.
>
>maybe this is of interest for the ones wanting to make such a unit.

Maybe. However, anodes used shold have some percentage of phosphor in
them (that's what I was told). 

Again, my friend John experimented over a year long with different
setups etc. until he found out that the chemicals are the most
important part. What I'm trying to tell is that it's well worth to buy
a complete set of chemicals from Bungard. By doing so you get
chemicals that are guaranteed to work. The anodes are of course also
an important part of this and hence I decided not to experiment here.
The starting kit for the Compacta 30 is basically what I use and it's
available for ~EUR 650. If you consider that my station can be run for
almost four years with it it's not really that expensive. Then you
also must understand that I intend to get only between 50 to 100 PCB's
per year out of it. That said it does not have to be a machine
suitable for a board house or such. I mean this is for homebrew pcb's
:-))

>((what does bungard charge for the bags?))

The bags are not on the pricelist I have. The anodes WITH the bags are
EUR 99 with a 10% rebate.

Markus

well, thanks for the information about rinsing etc.


i would like to have one too, but really don't need.
also the bungard "starter" chemicals pack is far too expensive for me.
(i could have them done outdoors too then for this costs)

i really look forward to hearing of your first results (and pictures!).
but you should get everything done PERFECTLY before filling.

i tend to try things before they are ready (remember how i killed the one
inkjet printer?).
leaving myself afterwards with a lot more work.

but on the other hand i also don't believe your station will be perfect
initially.

try to give it some test runs, with water, but actually heating, pcb in,
timing, etc...
also look out for spills with this runs, and get used to handling.

if you have the possibility to make less sophisticated pcbs (without through
hole plating) maybe it's also a option for you to fill your station
gradually, testing stage by stage....


i also want to ask you if it is possible for you to give a brief description
of the plastic welding you used.
i never did this myself but am very interested.
you use a temperature controlled hot air gun?
which nozzle diameter do you use, which temperature?
i think the hobby glas is available here also, what did you pay? 
how sturdy is the plastic, if you have a sheet a4 size and hold it along one
side how much does it bend?
would be very nice, thanks.


 
have a good night..

stefan




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Hi Stefan

>well, thanks for the information about rinsing etc.
>
>i would like to have one too, but really don't need.
>also the bungard "starter" chemicals pack is far too expensive for me.
>(i could have them done outdoors too then for this costs)

Hmm, I don't really agree on this one. If the load is good for 4 years
with 100 PCB's a year this makes 400 four layer boards. I don't think
that you get them all outdoors for $650 + Fr4 material cost (which is
just about $20 for a 2 x 6 foot sized piece). 

>i really look forward to hearing of your first results (and pictures!).
>but you should get everything done PERFECTLY before filling.

Yep, I also have to rearange my office here a bit so as the station
gets a good place. 

>i tend to try things before they are ready (remember how i killed the one
>inkjet printer?).
>leaving myself afterwards with a lot more work.

 :-) well, no risk no fun right?

>but on the other hand i also don't believe your station will be perfect
>initially.

What should I say? I better focus on get it done now and present first
results :-)

>try to give it some test runs, with water, but actually heating, pcb in,
>timing, etc...
>also look out for spills with this runs, and get used to handling.

That's what I did yesterday. So far these tests were sucessfull with
the exception of the PCB motor motion voltage regulator getting too
hot at low speed. I'm right now changing the electornics to adjust for
this.

>if you have the possibility to make less sophisticated pcbs (without through
>hole plating) maybe it's also a option for you to fill your station
>gradually, testing stage by stage....

Not needed. The chemicals, baths setup etc. is well tested by my
friend I mentioned and then you also should not forget that the
"compacta 30" from Bungarde operates with the same baths chemicals,
number of baths etc. So unless there is a mechanical issue it should
work just fine.

>i also want to ask you if it is possible for you to give a brief description
>of the plastic welding you used.
>i never did this myself but am very interested.
>you use a temperature controlled hot air gun?

Yes, the gun is from "Steinel". That should be available where you
live. It's the model that comes with  a digital display showing the
temperature. Whenever you change it the display quickly showes the
requested temperature, then changes back to the current one slowly
adjusting it ot the previousely set requested temperature. The
temperature is thereafter held constant. 

>which nozzle diameter do you use, which temperature?
The hobby glass should be processed at 400 degrees celsius. The
diameter I use to bend the glass is one centimeter. In order to bend
it I first draw a line on the glas with a pencil or such. Then I move
the gun along this line about 30 times slowly up and down. The glass
then becomes "soft" and at this point in time it can be easily bent.

There is a special nozzle available to do the plastic welding. The
nozzle allows to feed a plastic stripe into the air stream and is
having some sort of "shoe" at it's end. You can easily feed plastic to
the part of the construction that you heat and - well, it's realy
simillar to welding steel - asuming you did that once in your live :-)

It needs some experimentation to get your hands on it. That said, I
first created a smaller tank just to check how it can be done and also
to get used to the technique. All in all it's a fantastic way of
creating this kind of parts. The gun of course is also useable with
virtually any other thermo plastic material cause it goes up to 600
degrees celsius. Just don't feel tempted to also buy those solder
stripes they sell. The best thing is to cut some parts of 
 the material you intend to use into small stripes and use this one.
There are so many many differnt plastics out there that chances are
low that you get perfect results with thes provided plastic stripes.

As a bonus, I also use the same gun to unsolder SMD and throuhg hole
parts. Works very easy. I will also do some experimentation to see if
the gun could be used to apply solder to the tracks - but hey, let's
first get the through hole plating under control.

>i think the hobby glas is available here also, what did you pay? 

That's the bad part of the story. I bought it at "Hornbach" - which
initially is a German "Baumarkt" that also opened a store here in
Switzerland. A piece sized 125 x 50 centimeter and which is 2mm thick
costs about 15 EUR which IMHO is expensive. However, I wanted to have
the station through visible so as I could detect irregularities in an
early stage and for the tanks it also made sense.

>how sturdy is the plastic, if you have a sheet a4 size and hold it along one
>side how much does it bend?
>would be very nice, thanks.

It bends completely. You can see an example of this if you look at 

http://www.myhome.ch/mzingg/pcbstuff/tps/tps_in_parts.jpg (WARNING,
this picture is huge!!!) on the right lower side of the picture you
can see the heater tube and thermometer holders. They are bent 180
degrees so as they can be hung into the tank side plates.

>have a good night..

You too  :-)

Markus

thanks for all the information.

i wantet to get that steinel gun with the display some time ago.
but the didn't have it.. they only had the newer model, it has only 4 or 5
led to indicate the temperature.

i may try it somewhere else next time...

thanks again for all the information about plastic welding. i didn't see
this welding nozzle at the shop where i looked for the gun. maybe it would too
work with the normal straight nozzle?
or maybe i can make it of copper sheeting?

a photo of the nozzle would be very nice but isn't urgent at all... maybe
when you photograph your results?


also please tell me the type number of your hot air gun, steinel has 4 digit
numbers i think, like 2020...


regards
stefan




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Hi Stefan

>thanks for all the information.
>
>i wantet to get that steinel gun with the display some time ago.
>but the didn't have it.. they only had the newer model, it has only 4 or 5
>led to indicate the temperature.

That's strange. You really should try to find a better store then :-)

>i may try it somewhere else next time...
>
>thanks again for all the information about plastic welding. i didn't see
>this welding nozzle at the shop where i looked for the gun. maybe it would too
>work with the normal straight nozzle?
>or maybe i can make it of copper sheeting?
>
>a photo of the nozzle would be very nice but isn't urgent at all... maybe
>when you photograph your results?
>
>also please tell me the type number of your hot air gun, steinel has 4 digit
>numbers i think, like 2020...

Steinel is havine a homepage. You find the product along with the
accesories very easy

go to www.steinel.de

There chose english as the language if you prefer (click on the
british flag). For you Stefan, german is fine I figure :)

Anyways, on the english page, click on "Producs for DIYers" (whatever
that means) ("Produkte für Heimwerker" in german), then click on "Hot
air guns" ("Heissluft gebläse" in german) I use the "H2305LCD" under
acessories I use the "Reduction nozzle 9mm" (Reduzierdüse 9mm in
german) to bend the plastics. To welder I use the reduction nozzle
along with the "weldig nozzle" (Schweisschuh in german). I don't think
that it's worth it to try to build those on your own. I don't remember
the priczes anymore, but well, while the gun is their top end
(homeworker) model. I still do have in mind that the prize was
reasonable. IMHO it's important to have a REGULATED gun. As soon as
you start to work with plastics, you quickly will see that you always
miss a hand or two more :-) That said, I really would not also have to
deal with always finding the right temperature too. It's quite
comfortable to set it to the temperature requested, wait for it to get
there (quick, usually 20 sconds or such) and then start to work.

As mentioned in the other thread, the nozzels also come in handy if
you should unsolder parts with lot's of pins (no matter wether they
are SMD or through hole). While we are at it. Doing so most often
means that you must decide wether the PCB or the parts shall survive.
That's now however completely off topic :)

Markus

thanks.

DIY means Do It Yourself.
i found out these english guys call their "baumarkt" DIYstore.

i initially wanted to buy it for desoldering.

i have a unregulated one (eur 15 or so).
its scrap, the wire gets white glowing if you use reduction nozzle (and will
fail if you really try it).

i thought of making the regulation in there by myself, using the wire used
as a voltage dropping resistor for the fan as my sensor element (couldn't find
ntc/ptc which is made for 600 deg. c. )

but i do not longer want to make this.. too much effort to get the tiny
sensing signal to a bridge when nearby is a triac controlled interference sender
(the heater).


do you know what i hate:
the good tools are expensive.
there is no way around - you get what you pay.

and ebay doesn't have anything anytime... well if you can wait.........

ok, thanks, i will see if i get it... but this is not urgent at all..

regards
stefan



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Hi folks

I'm still testing with water - the voltage regulator still get's too
hot with low PCB motion speeds. Anyways, I created a little MPEG movie
of the station in action for those interested. You find it on the
bottom of the entry page.

http://www.myhome.ch/mzingg/pcbstuff/tps/

It's farily late now here again. I was busy all day with cleaning up
my office to make room for the station et all. Then we also had
guests. I studied the docs of the chemicals I got and - some one asked
this - found info about the material the bag's around the anodes
consist of. They are made of a polyprophylene tissue.

Markus

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Markus Zingg <m.zingg@n...> 
wrote:
> Hi folks
> 
> I'm still testing with water - the voltage regulator still get's too
> hot with low PCB motion speeds. Anyways, I created a little MPEG 
movie
> of the station in action for those interested. You find it on the
> bottom of the entry page.
> 
> http://www.myhome.ch/mzingg/pcbstuff/tps/
> 
> It's farily late now here again. I was busy all day with cleaning up
> my office to make room for the station et all. Then we also had
> guests. I studied the docs of the chemicals I got and - some one 
asked
> this - found info about the material the bag's around the anodes
> consist of. They are made of a polyprophylene tissue.

Markus,

That's an impressive tank system you made. I'm also interested in the 
chemistry you will be using. Please provide more information when you 
have time.

Many years ago I made a tank system for through hole plating in a 
commercial shop. This system had six tanks that were 25 gallons each.
Maybe this information will help those considering this method of 
processing.

Here is the process and details on that tank system:

Tank #1  Cleaner-conditioner, caustic soda based chemistry with 
surfactants. Stainless steel tank. 160 degree F operating 
temperature. 5 minute process time.

Rinse cycle
 
Tank #2  Micro-etch,  surfuric peroxide based. PVC tank operating at 
room temperature. 1 to 2 minutes.

Rinse cycle

Tank #3  Pre-dip,  proprietary chemistry. PVC tank operating at room 
temperature. 30 seconds to 1 minute dip. NO RINSE AFTER THIS STEP!!

Tank #4  Catalyst, proprietary activated palladium chemistry. PVC 
tank operating at 105 degrees F. 20 minute process time.

Rinse cycle

Tank #5  Accelerator, highly saturated solution of soda ash with 
about .5 gallons of copper sulfate solution added. It takes about 50 
to 60 pounds of soda ash to make up this 25 gallon bath. Stainless 
steel tank operating at 140 degees F. 10 minute process time.

Rinse cycle

Tank #6  Acid dip,  10% sulfuric acid solution. PVC tank operating at 
room temperature. 5 minute process time.

Rinse and dry.

The printed circuit panels are now conductive through the holes and 
across all exposed edges. An ohm meter connected across both copper 
planes will show 10 or less ohms depending on the number of holes.
The panels are now ready for electrolytic plating.

This system used the newer activated palladium chemistry with no need 
for electroless copper. Electroless copper is very difficult to run 
and needs constant attention. The palladium chemistry is a better 
choice for systems that are not run on a daily basis. Electroless 
copper is one of the major sources of pollution in a circuit board 
plant. You're better off if you never get near it.

Some thoughts about rinsing,  in our first system (using electroless 
copper)we had a 25 gallon flowing tank for each rinse cycle. Our 
small shop used over 7000 gallons of water per day with this rinse 
setup. This entire flow had to be waste treated which was a GIGANTIC 
headache. 

When I built the palladium based system we used a spray wand to rinse 
for about one minute into a trough that collected the spray water. 
Then the panels were dipped into a 25 gallon rinse tank that flowed 
about 2 gallons per hour after which the panels went on to the next 
process tank. The idea was to use a small amount of water as a spray 
to do 99% of the rinsing and then a quick dip into a slow flowing 
rinse tank caught anything else. Very efficient rinsing with very 
little water.

All of this rinse water was collected into a common holding tank that 
was fed into an evaporator system that boiled off the water at a rate 
of about 30 gallons per hour. We ran the evaporator tank several 
hours per day and had a ZERO DISCHARGE system with no connection to 
the sewer drain. Our only discharge was clean water vapor and we were 
able to reduce our water consumption to about 75 gallons per day. The 
savings were tremendous and it satisfied the environmental 
authorities as well.


Tom

Hi Markus,

I can give you one experience from my past experience in the PCB 
industry many years ago.

One problem we encountered, very rarely, but gave a lot of "pain in 
the head". Sometimes the palladium solution would seep into the 
circuit board itself and created conductive tracks inside the PCB.

We found that it was caused by mainly two things. 
1) drilling process, the drill bits would sometimes make a ragged 
hole. That hole was the start of a "tunnel" that sometimes reached 
another hole. This would obviously cause an invisible short in the 
circuit.
2) bad raw pcb material. The fibreglass mesh that the board was made 
of sometimes wasn't compressed enough, aggrevating the first problem.

I have troubleshot many such circuits, and I have to tell you that it 
can be a real nightmare. A circuit that has an invisible short...

Other than that, I can say that you will have a lot of fun making 
boards. The owner of the company that I worked for started in a 
similar way that you are doing. He operated a successful business for 
over 20 years in the prototype circuit manufacturing.
He hired a helper to help him. Then more and more, etc.
He also welded the plastics. He used gray PVC sheets for all his 
machines.

For the next step, you should make a Tin-Lead electro plater. That is 
used to place the tracks on the PCB. 

After the holes are copper plated, the board is coated with photo-
resist (Riston) and then exposed (both sides) through the negative. 
The resist is "negative", that means no resist where tracks are to be.
The tin-lead is then plated onto the exposed tracks (no resist).
After removing the photoresist (we used Riston) the remaining tin-
lead tracks were used as etch resist.
After etching, the PCB went into a reflow bath. The reflow bath was 
simply peanut oil heated to the necessary temperature to melt 
or "reflow" the tin-lead. That gives a nice shiny surface finish and 
smooths out any electroplating imperfections.


Good luck,
John M...
===================

you aren't using a switching regulator?

may be worth it..



> Hi folks
> 
> I'm still testing with water - the voltage regulator still get's too
> hot with low PCB motion speeds. Anyways, I created a little MPEG movie
> of the station in action for those interested. You find it on the
> bottom of the entry page.
> 
> http://www.myhome.ch/mzingg/pcbstuff/tps/
> 
> It's farily late now here again. I was busy all day with cleaning up
> my office to make room for the station et all. Then we also had
> guests. I studied the docs of the chemicals I got and - some one asked
> this - found info about the material the bag's around the anodes
> consist of. They are made of a polyprophylene tissue.
> 
> Markus
> 
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 

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Tom and others,

I will get back with detailed information as soon as it makes sense. I
updated my page

http://www.myhome.ch/mzingg/pcbstuff/tps/

to give a quick info about the most important things that happened
today. It's now VERY late where I am and hence I will get some sleep
:-)

Good night folks!

Markus

Hi Adam,

After some testing, it turned out that you were absolutely right. Not
that I really would have doubht it - It came even worse in that the
anode bags - which were wicked around the iron on top of the anodes
soaked up the solution. As a result the iron started to corrode....

I meanwhile have followed your sugestions. That is I made it slightly
different in that I drilled four threads into the anodes from top, and
screwd four solid copper wires into them. On top I also replaced the
iron with plastic bars. The wires are now PVC insulated and I used
glue to isolate the coper wire / anode interface.

You can see pictures of the changes here 

http://www.myhome.ch/mzingg/pcbstuff/tps/ 

click on "updates to the station"

While I think it's now done the way you meant, I still really
apreciate your feedback!

There is another probelm left open with the powersupply. It turns out
that the lamp regulator I use does not start up immediately and as a
result the transformer first outputs about 3V. There are ~40 Amps when
plating starts, and trying to regulate it down leads to the effect
that I can only go down to 10 Amps at about 0.6 V. Below current stops
flowing immediately. I'm now considering adding diodes in row to the
cathode line to have the transformer operate at a higher voltage...

I first hoped that the fact that now that the anodes are floated
completely this would change but it did not.

How did you do your power supply?

Markus

whats a lamp regulator?
do you mean a triac dimmer?

if you have problems firing at low angles try using a voltage with a
different phase angle for the firing pulse (if you use simple diac triggerdiode).

but i would suggest using a small analog circuit, generate a triangle/ramp
voltage syncronous to the mains power and compare to a constant "should be
value".
this gives very accurate setting of phase angle.
also you can add burst fire simply, which may be useful with inductive loads
and output voltage.

maybe this helps you..


but also the following may occur:
i don't know the chemical process you use but it may possible the
electrochemical voltage is at 0.6V, this then may cause that the current stops
immediately under 0,6.


if it is the regulator i can only suggest to get the scope and look at the
signals, these ready-made lamp regulators are only good for setting a lapms
intensity.
if you really want a good constant current then maybe make a feedback
regulator.
i discovered it more simple to keep the whole control/firing circuit at
secondary potential.
then you can use optocouplers only with on/off signal (firing bursts / mains
sync).
this is much better in long-term stability than coupling any analog signal
back, optos degrade with time, you would need to compensate that.
on the other hand - if your process/plant doesn't change over the time (the
resistance of the bath stays the same) then no regulation is needed and you
simply can set the value with a variable resistor (like it is now i guess)

regards
stefan





> Hi Adam,
> 
> After some testing, it turned out that you were absolutely right. Not
> that I really would have doubht it - It came even worse in that the
> anode bags - which were wicked around the iron on top of the anodes
> soaked up the solution. As a result the iron started to corrode....
> 
> I meanwhile have followed your sugestions. That is I made it slightly
> different in that I drilled four threads into the anodes from top, and
> screwd four solid copper wires into them. On top I also replaced the
> iron with plastic bars. The wires are now PVC insulated and I used
> glue to isolate the coper wire / anode interface.
> 
> You can see pictures of the changes here 
> 
> http://www.myhome.ch/mzingg/pcbstuff/tps/ 
> 
> click on "updates to the station"
> 
> While I think it's now done the way you meant, I still really
> apreciate your feedback!
> 
> There is another probelm left open with the powersupply. It turns out
> that the lamp regulator I use does not start up immediately and as a
> result the transformer first outputs about 3V. There are ~40 Amps when
> plating starts, and trying to regulate it down leads to the effect
> that I can only go down to 10 Amps at about 0.6 V. Below current stops
> flowing immediately. I'm now considering adding diodes in row to the
> cathode line to have the transformer operate at a higher voltage...
> 
> I first hoped that the fact that now that the anodes are floated
> completely this would change but it did not.
> 
> How did you do your power supply?
> 
> Markus
> 
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 

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+++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more  http://www.gmx.net +++
Bitte l\ufffdcheln! Fotogalerie online mit GMX ohne eigene Homepage!

Hi folks!

I'm a happy man! See the pictures of the first sucessfully through
hole plated PCB on the page!

http://www.myhome.ch/mzingg/pcbstuff/tps/

Click on "updates to the station", then scroll to the bottom.

Note! The "black" areas are not at all black. These are just
reflections of the light in my office. It's VERY hard to make a good
picture of such a shiny object like a freshly through plated PCB! The
scratches you see on one side are also not related to the through hole
process. They were in the print before the process. (That is I made
them after drilling the holes to get rid of the material that was
arond the borders of the holes).

The success came by adding two power diodes in series to the cathode
line thereby rasing the voltage by ~3V. This has something to do with
the triac dimmer I'm using. As a consequence I will - insted of using
a ready built one - build my own. I intend to make the station as easy
to copy as possible. I now start to document the station so as those
intrested in building their own don't have to go through such a lot of
difficulties as I had. That said I will add two new sections to the
menue. First one will be "Chemistry" where I will list in detail what
I know about the chemistry I use. The second section will be
instructions, picutres, dimensions, bill of material etc. so as one
can build his own station.

Markus

Very rewarding work. Are the boards through hole plated or 
just plated on the outside ? I only ask because I wasn't 
sure if you have the electroless up and running.
 From what i've gathered, electroless copper processing is 
by far the most troublesome. If you get that understood, 
then everything else is a little easier. Since you are 
paying good money for these chemicals, then you should 
expect good support from the suppliers.

Will your process use panel plating method for producing 
through hole PCBs ? If so what photoresist will you be using 
to seal the holes from the copper etchant ? Normally they 
are "tented" across with dry film negative resist.

Adam

Markus Zingg wrote:

> Hi folks!
> 
> I'm a happy man! See the pictures of the first sucessfully through
> hole plated PCB on the page!
>

Markus,
It's looking good.
Did you measure the thickness of the board before you started plating ?
How much extra copper do you now have to etch away when you make the
traces ?
I expect you will have a longer etching time...

How are you sensitizing the boards ?

Hans W


Markus Zingg wrote:

>  Hi folks!
>
> I'm a happy man! See the pictures of the first sucessfully through
> hole plated PCB on the page!
>
> http://www.myhome.ch/mzingg/pcbstuff/tps/
>
> Click on "updates to the station", then scroll to the bottom.
>
> Note! The "black" areas are not at all black. These are just
> reflections of the light in my office. It's VERY hard to make a good
> picture of such a shiny object like a freshly through plated PCB! The
> scratches you see on one side are also not related to the through hole
>
> process. They were in the print before the process. (That is I made
> them after drilling the holes to get rid of the material that was
> arond the borders of the holes).
>
> The success came by adding two power diodes in series to the cathode
> line thereby rasing the voltage by ~3V. This has something to do with
> the triac dimmer I'm using. As a consequence I will - insted of using
> a ready built one - build my own. I intend to make the station as easy
>
> to copy as possible. I now start to document the station so as those
> intrested in building their own don't have to go through such a lot of
>
> difficulties as I had. That said I will add two new sections to the
> menue. First one will be "Chemistry" where I will list in detail what
> I know about the chemistry I use. The second section will be
> instructions, picutres, dimensions, bill of material etc. so as one
> can build his own station.
>
> Markus
>
>                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor


>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Markus,
Another question.... How will you prevent the etching inside the newly
through plated holes ?
Hans W

Hi Adam

>Very rewarding work. Are the boards through hole plated or 
>just plated on the outside ? I only ask because I wasn't 
>sure if you have the electroless up and running.

Yes, they are through hole plated. :-)

> From what i've gathered, electroless copper processing is 
>by far the most troublesome. If you get that understood, 
>then everything else is a little easier. Since you are 
>paying good money for these chemicals, then you should 
>expect good support from the suppliers.

Mr. D. Bungard - is very helpfull. He is reachable on the phone and
also answers e-mails (usually within a day). He gave many good tips
and information.

>Will your process use panel plating method for producing 
>through hole PCBs ? If so what photoresist will you be using 
>to seal the holes from the copper etchant ? Normally they 
>are "tented" across with dry film negative resist.

I'm not sure about the names of the different methods, so let me
describe how it works:

As you can see I have 5 bath's. 

1 - A cleaning solution (7 minutes) followed by static and spray rinse
2 - so called "pre dip" (1 minute)  NO RINSE after this step
3 - activation (7 minutes, this is the most expensive one - it
contains paladium) followed by static and spray rinse
4 - intensifier (4 minutes). This bath should transport the paladium
that happen to stay on the copper sides into the holes also thereby
avoiding an other wise needed cleaning step of the pcb. Still, static
and spray rinse is requiered
5 - the electrolytic bath (24 minutes) followed by static and spray
rinse.

The static and spray rinse times is one minute each.

This will produce plates that have 35 u of copper if you start with
copper plates that have 18u alreay. After this a photoresist is
laminated on the board. The negative mask is made in a way so as the
holes are not there, that said, the hole areas do get light during the
exposion and hence they will not be etched. The developement of the
photoresist is made with soda. After the etching of the board the
remaining parts of the photoresist is once more "developped" with
natriumhydroxid solution.

I hope this explains yours and also Hans Wedemeyer's questions. If not
feel free to ask more.

Markus

>Adam
>
>Markus Zingg wrote:
>> Hi folks!
>> 
>> I'm a happy man! See the pictures of the first sucessfully through
>> hole plated PCB on the page!

Markus Zingg wrote:
> 
> As you can see I have 5 bath's. 
> 
> 1 - A cleaning solution (7 minutes) followed by static and spray rinse
> 2 - so called "pre dip" (1 minute)  NO RINSE after this step
> 3 - activation (7 minutes, this is the most expensive one - it
> contains paladium) followed by static and spray rinse
> 4 - intensifier (4 minutes). This bath should transport the paladium
> that happen to stay on the copper sides into the holes also thereby
> avoiding an other wise needed cleaning step of the pcb. Still, static
> and spray rinse is requiered
> 5 - the electrolytic bath (24 minutes) followed by static and spray
> rinse.

You do not mention an electroless copper bath ! If this is 
so then your process uses palladium activation , not 
electroless. Electroless copper involves one additional bath 
containing copper sulfate, formaldehyde plus other 
chemicals. This final bath deposits copper onto all surfaces 
without electricity. After the board is covered with a thin 
layer of copper (usually less than one micrometer) it can 
then be plated at high speed in the electroplating tank. I 
remember Tom (twb8899@...) talking on this group about 
using the palladium process in his PCB shop. Out of interest 
what's the price of the palladium solution ?


> 
> This will produce plates that have 35 u of copper if you start with
> copper plates that have 18u alreay. After this a photoresist is
> laminated on the board. The negative mask is made in a way so as the
> holes are not there, that said, the hole areas do get light during the
> exposion and hence they will not be etched. The developement of the
> photoresist is made with soda. After the etching of the board the
> remaining parts of the photoresist is once more "developped" with
> natriumhydroxid solution.
> 


What type of photoresist are you using, liquid or dry film ?,
Is the photoresist soluble in developer solution BEFORE 
light exposure ? (this is called "negative resist")

How are you applying the resist to the board ?

 From what you mentioned above I suspect your using dry film 
negative photoresist. Developer of this resist is 10g/L of 
Na2CO3 at 25~30\ufffdC and the stripper (remove all resist) is 
usually 10 to 30g/L of NaOH.

Adam


Adam

>Markus Zingg wrote:
>> 
>> As you can see I have 5 bath's. 
>> 
>> 1 - A cleaning solution (7 minutes) followed by static and spray rinse
>> 2 - so called "pre dip" (1 minute)  NO RINSE after this step
>> 3 - activation (7 minutes, this is the most expensive one - it
>> contains paladium) followed by static and spray rinse
>> 4 - intensifier (4 minutes). This bath should transport the paladium
>> that happen to stay on the copper sides into the holes also thereby
>> avoiding an other wise needed cleaning step of the pcb. Still, static
>> and spray rinse is requiered
>> 5 - the electrolytic bath (24 minutes) followed by static and spray
>> rinse.
>
>You do not mention an electroless copper bath ! If this is 
>so then your process uses palladium activation , not 
>electroless. Electroless copper involves one additional bath 
>containing copper sulfate, formaldehyde plus other 
>chemicals. This final bath deposits copper onto all surfaces 
>without electricity. After the board is covered with a thin 
>layer of copper (usually less than one micrometer) it can 
>then be plated at high speed in the electroplating tank. I 
>remember Tom (twb8899@...) talking on this group about 
>using the palladium process in his PCB shop. Out of interest 
>what's the price of the palladium solution ?

You are right, I am using palladium activation. The palladium is 200
EUR per 0.5 liter. That's expensive, but my 2.5 liter tank only needs
125ml per load. The remaining part is filled up with the pre-dip
solution which is a lot cheaper. That said, the 200 EUR palladium is
sufficient for four loads which last quite a while.

I made a fairly simple calculation. The through plating station along
with the chemistry AND base material to create 55 four layer and 55
double sided PCB's costs me around 1500 EURO. With 55 boards I asume
boards that are sized 10x10 cm. I use this size because it makes price
calculation with external board suppliers easier.

On the other hand, the external costs for making such PCB's are here
where I lilve:

~ 50 EUR for a double sided PCB
~ 96 EUR for a four layer PCB

Multiplied wiht the 55 pieces that are included with what I payedthis
makes:

- 2750 EUR for the double sided PCB's
- 5280 EUR for the four layer PCB's

Hence a total of EUR 8030 for the same thing! Let me point out that
this is about the cheapest offers I could get! But wait, to be fair!
It's NOT the same thing. Add to this the fact that if the boards are
made externally I have to wait 8 to 10 working days plus another week
probably for the shipement (the faster and cheaper service houses are
located in Germany hence I would need to import them adding this time
lag because of customs). If it should be faster, the firms charge
usually 50% to 100% more for say 5 says and 100% to 300% more for a 3
day delivery. HOWEVER, unless I can have them produced in Switzerland,
the shiping / customs delay is constant over all variants. 

After I made a double sided PCB yesterday I can say that I will need
probably 2 hours for such a 10x10 cm sized print including drilling
through plating, etching etc. Then, to be fair the external ones have
a solder stop mask and are thin plated. The former is no problem. The
solder stop mask film is already on the way to me. My fried John I
mentioned already some times just did his first solder stop mask last
night. He is all exited about how simple it was. It's about the same
as applying the dry film photoresist (laminate, expose, develop) and
the costs are also not so extremly high. Thin film is not applied with
the homebrew method as of now, but I will surely address this also.

So, to me my solution really looks cheap! But let me point out that to
me the prices are just half of the story. I HATE waiting for PCB's
that's probably the main reason why I started this project.


>> This will produce plates that have 35 u of copper if you start with
>> copper plates that have 18u alreay. After this a photoresist is
>> laminated on the board. The negative mask is made in a way so as the
>> holes are not there, that said, the hole areas do get light during the
>> exposion and hence they will not be etched. The developement of the
>> photoresist is made with soda. After the etching of the board the
>> remaining parts of the photoresist is once more "developped" with
>> natriumhydroxid solution.
>> 
>
>
>What type of photoresist are you using, liquid or dry film ?,

dry film.

>Is the photoresist soluble in developer solution BEFORE 
>light exposure ? (this is called "negative resist")

I have to laminate it, then do the light exposure then developp it. I
used the term "negative" becuase the exposed parts of the film are
thereafter resisting to the developper and those which are not exposed
to light will be taken away from the developper.

>How are you applying the resist to the board ?

I laminate the film with a regular office laminator - well, I took
care to choose a model that "eats" 1.5mm thick PCB's.

> From what you mentioned above I suspect your using dry film 
>negative photoresist. Developer of this resist is 10g/L of 
>Na2CO3 at 25~30°C and the stripper (remove all resist) is 
>usually 10 to 30g/L of NaOH.

I use  20g/L of Na2CO3
and later on to strip 15g/L of NaOH

Markus

Markus Zingg wrote:
>>Markus Zingg wrote:
> 
> 
> You are right, I am using palladium activation. The palladium is 200
> EUR per 0.5 liter. That's expensive, but my 2.5 liter tank only needs
> 125ml per load. The remaining part is filled up with the pre-dip
> solution which is a lot cheaper. That said, the 200 EUR palladium is
> sufficient for four loads which last quite a while.

Thanks for the price info. I'd expected that price range. I 
remember once a friend looked into doing his own through 
hole plating using conventional electroless copper and got a 
shock when the sales person faxed him the prices :). You 
point out that the economics going down this path yourself 
is still small compared to professional made boards, which 
is all the matters at the end of the day.

I guess the importnat thing now is to take extra care not to 
comtaminate the palladium solution.

There is really no alternative because its not likely your 
going to develop your own chemistry and go through the years 
  of research that the manufactures once did. Its taken 
decades for these alternative electroless copper systems to 
make it in the industry. If your are interested in the 
subject you might like to read;

http://nr.stic.gov.tw/ejournal/ProceedingA/v23n3/365-368.pdf

> 
> I have to laminate it, then do the light exposure then developp it. I
> used the term "negative" becuase the exposed parts of the film are
> thereafter resisting to the developper and those which are not exposed
> to light will be taken away from the developper.

Yes, that's what people call a "negative" resist.

> 
>>From what you mentioned above I suspect your using dry film 
>>negative photoresist. Developer of this resist is 10g/L of 
>>Na2CO3 at 25~30\ufffdC and the stripper (remove all resist) is 
>>usually 10 to 30g/L of NaOH.
> 
> 
> I use  20g/L of Na2CO3
> and later on to strip 15g/L of NaOH
>

The strip solution is not critical, but from what I've read 
on all dry film data sheets is the developer should be 9 to 
11g/L NaCO3. If the instructions say 20g/L then use that.
For my developing method I pour 500 ml of warm water into a 
plastic tray and then add 50 ml of concentrate stock 
solution (100g/L NaCO3). I drop in the PCB and gently brush 
over with a 50 mm wide paint brush until I can clearly see 
all the copper. Then I continue brushing for another minute 
just to make sure all the (unexposed) resist is removed. 
I've had problems with resist residue if I don't do the 
extra brushing. Then the board is quickly rinsed and goes 
straight into the etchant. I found the resists can swell a 
the edges if rinsed for too long a time in fresh water. Once 
the bard goes into the acidic etchant then the resist film 
returns hard again.


Adam

laminating:

it should be possible to use a laser printer / copier fuser unit.
simply construct a thermal controller for it or use the one in the printer
if you can find it.

then you have a very nice laminator with sizes up to 30cm or more (from
copier).

if you also take out the motor and some gears you may be able to build this
motorised too, to get constant transport speed.

maybe this is cheaper and easier than to get than a laminator wich eats 2mm.

regards
stefan

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Stefan

>laminating:
>
>it should be possible to use a laser printer / copier fuser unit.
>simply construct a thermal controller for it or use the one in the printer
>if you can find it.
>
>then you have a very nice laminator with sizes up to 30cm or more (from
>copier).
>
>if you also take out the motor and some gears you may be able to build this
>motorised too, to get constant transport speed.
>
>maybe this is cheaper and easier than to get than a laminator wich eats 2mm.

Thanks for the idea, but there are quite some office laminators which
- even if slighly out of spec - happyly "eat" 1.5mm thik PCB's. So,
IMHO such a laminator is much easier and cheaper to get. 

Markus

On Sun, 08 Jun 2003 09:29:09 +1000, you wrote:

>
>
>Markus Zingg wrote:
>>>Markus Zingg wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> You are right, I am using palladium activation. The palladium is 200
>> EUR per 0.5 liter. That's expensive, but my 2.5 liter tank only needs
>> 125ml per load. The remaining part is filled up with the pre-dip
>> solution which is a lot cheaper. That said, the 200 EUR palladium is
>> sufficient for four loads which last quite a while.
>
>Thanks for the price info. I'd expected that price range. I 
>remember once a friend looked into doing his own through 
>hole plating using conventional electroless copper and got a 
>shock when the sales person faxed him the prices :). You 
>point out that the economics going down this path yourself 
>is still small compared to professional made boards, which 
>is all the matters at the end of the day.
>
>I guess the importnat thing now is to take extra care not to 
>comtaminate the palladium solution.

Yes, of course. I added covers to all tanks, and take extreme care to
follow the process specifications to the letter.

>There is really no alternative because its not likely your 
>going to develop your own chemistry and go through the years 
>  of research that the manufactures once did. Its taken 
>decades for these alternative electroless copper systems to 
>make it in the industry. If your are interested in the 
>subject you might like to read;
>
>http://nr.stic.gov.tw/ejournal/ProceedingA/v23n3/365-368.pdf

Very intresting article! Too bad it's quite short on the methods. The
palladium as well as the pre dip bath smell like vanilla - so I FIGURE
my solution uses the Palladium method which mentiones vanilla...

Again, I'm happy that it works now and currently I really don't have
the time to delve into this.

[snip]

>The strip solution is not critical, but from what I've read 
>on all dry film data sheets is the developer should be 9 to 
>11g/L NaCO3. If the instructions say 20g/L then use that.
>For my developing method I pour 500 ml of warm water into a 
>plastic tray and then add 50 ml of concentrate stock 
>solution (100g/L NaCO3). I drop in the PCB and gently brush 
>over with a 50 mm wide paint brush until I can clearly see 
>all the copper. Then I continue brushing for another minute 
>just to make sure all the (unexposed) resist is removed. 
>I've had problems with resist residue if I don't do the 
>extra brushing. Then the board is quickly rinsed and goes 
>straight into the etchant. I found the resists can swell a 
>the edges if rinsed for too long a time in fresh water. Once 
>the bard goes into the acidic etchant then the resist film 
>returns hard again.

I too use a wide paint brush and do it quite similarly. Intresting
observation with only rinsing it shortly. I will try this and see if
it changes the quality of the final PCB.

Markus

Markus Zingg wrote:
> On Sun, 08 Jun 2003 09:29:09 +1000, you wrote:
> 
>>http://nr.stic.gov.tw/ejournal/ProceedingA/v23n3/365-368.pdf
> 
> Very intresting article! Too bad it's quite short on the methods. The
> palladium as well as the pre dip bath smell like vanilla - so I FIGURE
> my solution uses the Palladium method which mentiones vanilla...
> 

That's interesting. I remember Tom once telling us how he 
knew a guy who patented a palladium system, and the magic 
ingredient was vanilla extract , vanillin. I've just 
searched the Homebrew_PCBs archives, and found the article 
posted by Tom.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/message/1108

Curiosity got the better of me, and I also went searching 
for the actual patent,

US5071517 , see http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/srchnum.htm

Adam

>Markus Zingg wrote:
>> On Sun, 08 Jun 2003 09:29:09 +1000, you wrote:
>> 
>>>http://nr.stic.gov.tw/ejournal/ProceedingA/v23n3/365-368.pdf
>> 
>> Very intresting article! Too bad it's quite short on the methods. The
>> palladium as well as the pre dip bath smell like vanilla - so I FIGURE
>> my solution uses the Palladium method which mentiones vanilla...
>> 
>
>That's interesting. I remember Tom once telling us how he 
>knew a guy who patented a palladium system, and the magic 
>ingredient was vanilla extract , vanillin. I've just 
>searched the Homebrew_PCBs archives, and found the article 
>posted by Tom.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/message/1108
>
>Curiosity got the better of me, and I also went searching 
>for the actual patent,
>
>US5071517 , see http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/srchnum.htm
>
>Adam

Adam

Now that patent IS interesting - wow, I haven't studied closer, but I
got the impression that the information is so precise that it should
be possible to "mix" such a paladium solution - well, chemistry is
close to black art to me and hence it's out of question. The patent
dates back to 1989... How long are patents protected? 20 years or 25
years? Anyways, I figure for personal use mixing this stuff together
should not violate any rights...

Markus