Homebrew PCBs

Which dEDA version should I download for use with Ubuntu? I don't see it 
listed and I am no Linux expert :)
Thanks,
Dave

Well, the newest Ubuntu won't run on that pc although version 6 will. I 
get a screen server error so I guess my graphics adapter or monitor are 
incompatible. Will the v6.06 LTS also install the Windows dual boot and 
work just as well with gEDA?
Thanks,
Dave

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On Tuesday 27 November 2007 11:57, Dave wrote:
> Well, the newest Ubuntu won't run on that pc although version 6 will. I
> get a screen server error so I guess my graphics adapter or monitor are
> incompatible. Will the v6.06 LTS also install the Windows dual boot and
> work just as well with gEDA?
> Thanks,
> Dave
>

Should work just fine. It may not install the absolutely latest gEDA, but you 
can updaate from the gEDA website later. 

After you complete the OS install, select  Applications=>Add/Remove. IIRC you 
will need to select "Advanced" at the lower left corner to see gEDA.
-- 
Keith Bowers - Thomasville, NC

Unless you have a reason to do otherwise, you should always use the
latest versions of gEDA and PCB.

DJ Delorie wrote:
 >
 >
 > Unless you have a reason to do otherwise, you should always use the
 > latest versions of gEDA and PCB.

What I meant was which download from the gEDA site? I figured out Ubuntu 
is Debian based so do I get that download or use the dEDA Suite image?
Thanks,
Dave
Learning Linux as we speak :)

> _,_._,___

keith wrote:
 >
 >
 > Should work just fine. It may not install the absolutely latest gEDA, 
but you
 > can updaate from the gEDA website later.
 >
 > After you complete the OS install, select Applications=>Add/Remove. 
IIRC you
 > will need to select "Advanced" at the lower left corner to see gEDA.
 > --
 > Keith Bowers - Thomasville, NC

Ok, I just wiped the old XP install as it was all corrupt and slow from 
the previous owner. This will be my Linux box now. It sure is taking a 
long tome to erase the 80 GB hard drive. I think it has an extra 
partition as its an HP pc so I may have to FDisk it first and try again...
Thanks,
Dave

DJ Delorie <dj@...> writes:
> Unless you have a reason to do otherwise, you should always use the
> latest versions of gEDA and PCB.

Note: if your OS comes with one or more copies of gEDA pre-built, use
the latest of those versions.  You don't have to make it hard on
yourself ;-)

We've been working on it lately, so if you stay interested, it might
be worthwhile to build the development sources, so you get the latest
features and bugfixes.

Dave <theschemer@...> writes:
> What I meant was which download from the gEDA site? I figured out Ubuntu 
> is Debian based so do I get that download or use the gEDA Suite image?

Ah.  Install the Suite CDROM if you can; it's much newer than the
.deb's.

What the Suite is, is a CD-ROM image of all the sources, and a big
build script.  When you "install" it, it builds a set of tools custom
to your installation.

DJ Delorie wrote:
 >
 >
 > Dave <theschemer@...> writes:
 > > What I meant was which download from the gEDA site? I figured out 
Ubuntu
 > > is Debian based so do I get that download or use the gEDA Suite image?
 >
 > Ah. Install the Suite CDROM if you can; it's much newer than the
 > .deb's.
 >
 > What the Suite is, is a CD-ROM image of all the sources, and a big
 > build script. When you "install" it, it builds a set of tools custom
 > to your installation.

Ok, thats what I needed to know...
Thanks,
Dave

On Tue, 27 Nov 2007, Dave wrote:

> Which dEDA version should I download for use with Ubuntu? I don't see it
> listed and I am no Linux expert :)

Make sure that under 'Applications -> Add software' you have chosen to
search all software rather than just the 'core' components.

Then if 'geda' doesn't work as a search, try 'pcb' to search for PCB
software.

Dylan Smith wrote:
 >
 > On Tue, 27 Nov 2007, Dave wrote:
 >
 > > Which dEDA version should I download for use with Ubuntu? I don't 
see it
 > > listed and I am no Linux expert :)
 >
 > Make sure that under 'Applications -> Add software' you have chosen to
 > search all software rather than just the 'core' components.
 >
 > Then if 'geda' doesn't work as a search, try 'pcb' to search for PCB
 > software.

Well, after I used FDISK from an old Win98 I formatted the drive and 
installed Ubuntu. Now I can't figure out how to install the .iso for 
gEDA. I guess I need a crash course. I would have thought just clicking 
the installer would work but I think I need to mount the CD but have to 
figure out how to get to the "root". :)
Dave

Dave <theschemer@...> writes:

> Well, after I used FDISK from an old Win98 I formatted the drive and
> installed Ubuntu. Now I can't figure out how to install the .iso for
> gEDA. I guess I need a crash course. I would have thought just
> clicking the installer would work but I think I need to mount the CD
> but have to figure out how to get to the "root". :)

It might be easier to burn a CD from it, then mount the CD.

Anyway, the magic command, as root, is:

mount -o loop /dev/cdrom /media/cdrom

(where /dev/cdrom might be /dev/dvd, and /media/cdrom can be any
pre-existing empty directory)

To become root, type "su" in a terminal window.

On Tuesday 27 November 2007 15:30, Dave wrote:
> Dylan Smith wrote:
>  > On Tue, 27 Nov 2007, Dave wrote:
> the installer would work but I think I need to mount the CD but have to
> figure out how to get to the "root". :)
> Dave
>
>
Ubuntu doesn't allow logins as "root" without some fooling around. All such 
commands are done using sudo. i.e. sudo locate -u to update the locate 
database. With no root user login the system is more secure. Putting sudo in 
front of a command executes it as root. It will ask you for your password 
before executing the command. To find out more about it go to 
Applications=>Acccessories=>terminal and open a terminal window, then type 
man sudo to get the manual page. Hope I'm not getting too elementary.

Stick the .iso disk in the CD drive and let the machine meditate a bit; it may 
well automount it. An icon should appear on your desktop and quite possibly 
it will ask if your want to start the package manager.

Assuming you have a decent internet connection use the applications=>add 
softwre which will pull gEDA down from the Ubuntu repository. 
-- 
Keith Bowers - Thomasville, NC

keith wrote:
 >
 >
 > Ubuntu doesn't allow logins as "root" without some fooling around. 
All such
 > commands are done using sudo. i.e. sudo locate -u to update the locate
 > database. With no root user login the system is more secure. Putting 
sudo in
 > front of a command executes it as root. It will ask you for your password
 > before executing the command. To find out more about it go to
 > Applications=>Acccessories=>terminal and open a terminal window, then 
type
 > man sudo to get the manual page. Hope I'm not getting too elementary.
 >
 > Stick the .iso disk in the CD drive and let the machine meditate a 
bit; it may
 > well automount it. An icon should appear on your desktop and quite 
possibly
 > it will ask if your want to start the package manager.
 >
 > Assuming you have a decent internet connection use the applications=>add
 > softwre which will pull gEDA down from the Ubuntu repository.
 > --
 > Keith Bowers - Thomasville, NC

Ok, For starters, I was in the kitchen with this setup on the counter 
without an internet connection. I have moved the pc into my computer 
room and now was able to install from the web the 3 programs Gerber File 
Viwer, GNU Eda Schematic Editor, and PCB Designer. The CD image for the 
gEDA shows on the desktop and opens if I double click on it and shows 
all the folders and files. If I click on the "installer.exe" nothing 
happens. You are not getting too elementary as I know nothing about unix 
so talk to me like a baby :) The last time I tried to mess with Linux 
was RedHat 5.2 and 6.5 and never was even able to figure out how to get 
online :) So I guess I need help with the package manager?
Thanks,
Dave

>

>
> It might be easier to burn a CD from it, then mount the CD.
>
> Anyway, the magic command, as root, is:
>
> mount -o loop /dev/cdrom /media/cdrom
>
> (where /dev/cdrom might be /dev/dvd, and /media/cdrom can be any
> pre-existing empty directory)
>
> To become root, type "su" in a terminal window.

I only have about a half a day experience with Linux so this may take a 
while.
Thanks,
Dave

>
>
>  
>

keith wrote:
 >
 >
 >
 > Assuming you have a decent internet connection use the applications=>add
 > softwre which will pull gEDA down from the Ubuntu repository.
 > --
 > Keith Bowers - Thomasville, NC

It does pull Gnu EDA but its an old version from 2005. I just downloaded 
the image to the Linux desktop and will soon find out if that helps...
Thanks,
Dave


>

Ahhh...I just had to reboot after a crash and realized there are updates 
available. Like 173 of them!! So I will handle that first and try some 
more. I though Macs and Linux were different than Windows but I guess 
not in the updates department :)
Thanks,
Dave
> ,_._,___

I think I will stick with Windows and Eagle CAD :)
Dave

On Tuesday 27 November 2007 17:24, Dave wrote:
>
> Ok, For starters, I was in the kitchen with this setup on the counter
> without an internet connection. I have moved the pc into my computer
> room and now was able to install from the web the 3 programs Gerber File
> Viwer, GNU Eda Schematic Editor, and PCB Designer. The CD image for the
> gEDA shows on the desktop and opens if I double click on it and shows
> all the folders and files. If I click on the "installer.exe" nothing
> happens. You are not getting too elementary as I know nothing about unix
> so talk to me like a baby :) The last time I tried to mess with Linux
> was RedHat 5.2 and 6.5 and never was even able to figure out how to get
> online :) So I guess I need help with the package manager?
> Thanks,
> Dave
>

Take a look at:
system=>Help

A couple of books you might want to look into:
	Ubuntu Linux for Non-Geeks
	Ubuntu Linux Bible

Google is your friend; try ubuntu geda

This might be a good place to start: 
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=262213

I haven't messed with 6xx in a long time, so i'm badly out of practice.
-- 
Keith Bowers - Thomasville, NC

keith wrote:
 >
 >
 > Take a look at:
 > system=>Help
 >
 > A couple of books you might want to look into:
 > Ubuntu Linux for Non-Geeks
 > Ubuntu Linux Bible
 >
 > Google is your friend; try ubuntu geda
 >
 > This might be a good place to start:
 > http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=262213
 >
 > I haven't messed with 6xx in a long time, so i'm badly out of practice.
 > --
 > Keith Bowers - Thomasville, NC

I think I need to get a better monitor for my Linux expariments. Mine 
only does 1024x768 and with PCB Designer I can't even resize it 
vertically small enough to fit. I think I may just wait and use Eagle 
CAD and then buy some upgrades to build a good Linux box.
Thanks,
Dave

p.s. I found the package manager but still couldn't install the latest 
version a gEDA so I would be stuck with the old one anyhow.


> 
> _._,___

Dave:

There is another free ECAD system that runs on Windows
called KiCAD.  Here is the URL:

  <http://kicad.sourceforge.net/>

I've never run KiCAD on Windows, but it should run just
fine.  There is nothing particularly wrong with EagleCAD,
but the free version does have size restrictions.

-Wayne

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Dave <theschemer@...> wrote:

>
> I think I will stick with Windows and Eagle CAD :)
> Dave
>

I looked at Kicad but didn't like it but I may have another look at it. 
I got the Linux latest version installing now as I am using a different 
display than this morning so I will see how that goes....
Thanks,
Dave

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Dave <theschemer@...> wrote:
> I looked at Kicad but didn't like it but I may have another look at it. 
> I got the Linux latest version installing now as I am using a different 
> display than this morning so I will see how that goes....

Dave - can I give you the same pointer someone else on this gave to
me? I've been down the KiCAD / AutoTrax / Eagle / etc path. Have a
look at DIPTrace: http://www.diptrace.com - has a 250 pin freeware
limit, but the pricing is quote reasonable for larger versions.

Phil

phildimond wrote:
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Dave <theschemer@...> wrote:
>   
>> I looked at Kicad but didn't like it but I may have another look at it. 
>> I got the Linux latest version installing now as I am using a different 
>> display than this morning so I will see how that goes....
>>     
>
> Dave - can I give you the same pointer someone else on this gave to
> me? I've been down the KiCAD / AutoTrax / Eagle / etc path. Have a
> look at DIPTrace: http://www.diptrace.com - has a 250 pin freeware
> limit, but the pricing is quote reasonable for larger versions.
>
> Phil
>   
Phil,
  I will check it out. It can't hurt as I have been looking at them all. 
My projects are going to be small but from what I remember I started out 
with Eagle about 10 years ago for the short time I got to try to learn. 
I just want to do single sided stuff with toner transfer method.
Thanks,
Dave

phildimond wrote:
> Dave - can I give you the same pointer someone else on this gave to
> me? I've been down the KiCAD / AutoTrax / Eagle / etc path. Have a
> look at DIPTrace: http://www.diptrace.com - has a 250 pin freeware
> limit, but the pricing is quote reasonable for larger versions.
>
> Phil
>   
Wow! I just installed this and talk about user friendly. I had it 
figured out in 10 minutes how to work it. Very nice indeed. Of course I 
will need to design my circuit now and see how many items are available 
in the libraries and if any are missing how to make them etc...Thanks 
again for the info. :)
Dave

You guys made me curious. I downloaded and tried Diptrace out (went 
through the tutorial etc.). I do not agree that it is soooo user 
friendly compared to Eagle (as strange as this may sounds). Don't get 
this wrong. It's truly ok for the money but for instance, I particularly 
find it clumsey to assign values to parts and make this visible in the 
schematic entry program. You really have to go through too many mouse 
clicks for such a frequent operation. I liked some other features though 
(i.e. some more intelligence moving around parts that are already have 
connections etc.). What I also miss (ok, might be that I just don't know 
how to do it) is the ability to enter purchase department oriented 
information for parts. I'm not totally fluent in english, so please bear 
with me when I now try to explain what I mean with more words than 
otherwise needed. Anyways, from personal experience I just know that 
having the information ready to actually order parts for a production 
run of a design is a painfull, time consuming process. I expect from a 
modern CAD package some support here. Like being able to define 
(multiple) suppliers for a part, entering price per quantity 
information, datasheet URLs etc. etc. and having a process thereafter 
that allows to make intelligent orders. Eagle has solved this with a ULP 
(but IMHO that should be part of the base product but that's a 
discussion we had already in the past).

What I also miss is a similar feature like the ULPs in Eagle. Well, one 
should be able to "add" individual functionality to a package as it's 
possible with Eagle. Diptrace does have the ASCII export feature which 
could be used to modify the database and reimport, but that seems a 
little complicated let alone the fact that the data format does not seem 
to be documented (as oposed to Eagle). Doing layout work also is not as 
easy as it is in Eagle.

However, I DO like the fact though that this seems to be a competition 
for Eagle and I would recommend the package to someone looking for a 
good package on a budget. Besides it seems to be a relatively new 
product, so we may will see progress in the future.

Just my 2\ufffd of course.

Markus

Dave schrieb:

>
>
>
> phildimond wrote:
> > Dave - can I give you the same pointer someone else on this gave to
> > me? I've been down the KiCAD / AutoTrax / Eagle / etc path. Have a
> > look at DIPTrace: http://www.diptrace.com <http://www.diptrace.com> 
> - has a 250 pin freeware
> > limit, but the pricing is quote reasonable for larger versions.
> >
> > Phil
> >
> Wow! I just installed this and talk about user friendly. I had it
> figured out in 10 minutes how to work it. Very nice indeed. Of course I
> will need to design my circuit now and see how many items are available
> in the libraries and if any are missing how to make them etc...Thanks
> again for the info. :)
> Dave
>
>

The -o loop is only needed if you are trying to directly mount the .iso
file. In that case, replace /dev/cdrom with the file name (and path if it
is not in the working directory)

>
> Dave <theschemer@...> writes:
>
>> Well, after I used FDISK from an old Win98 I formatted the drive and
>> installed Ubuntu. Now I can't figure out how to install the .iso for
>> gEDA. I guess I need a crash course. I would have thought just
>> clicking the installer would work but I think I need to mount the CD
>> but have to figure out how to get to the "root". :)
>
> It might be easier to burn a CD from it, then mount the CD.
>
> Anyway, the magic command, as root, is:
>
> mount -o loop /dev/cdrom /media/cdrom
>
> (where /dev/cdrom might be /dev/dvd, and /media/cdrom can be any
> pre-existing empty directory)
>
> To become root, type "su" in a terminal window.
>

"Christopher Hart" <kc8ufv@...> writes:
> The -o loop is only needed if you are trying to directly mount the .iso

> > mount -o loop /dev/cdrom /media/cdrom

Doh!  Of course, you're right.  It should be:

mount -o loop /usr/dj/geda.iso /media/cdrom

Or whatever the path is.

Christopher Hart wrote:
> The -o loop is only needed if you are trying to directly mount the .iso
> file. In that case, replace /dev/cdrom with the file name (and path if it
> is not in the working directory)
>   
>
I solved those problems by getting v7.10 to install after changing my 
display. Version 6.06 LTS installed fine but seemed unstable as I could 
crash it quite easily just by dragging stuff to the trash can. After I 
installed and updated v7.10 I was able to easily install the image and 
get everything going.
Thanks,
Dave

Markus Zingg wrote:
> You guys made me curious. I downloaded and tried Diptrace out (went 
> through the tutorial etc.). I do not agree that it is soooo user 
> friendly compared to Eagle (as strange as this may sounds). Don't get 
> this wrong. It's truly ok for the money but for instance, I particularly 
> find it clumsey to assign values to parts and make this visible in the 
> schematic entry program. You really have to go through too many mouse 
> clicks for such a frequent operation. I liked some other features though 
> (i.e. some more intelligence moving around parts that are already have 
> connections etc.). What I also miss (ok, might be that I just don't know 
> how to do it) is the ability to enter purchase department oriented 
> information for parts. I'm not totally fluent in english, so please bear 
> with me when I now try to explain what I mean with more words than 
> otherwise needed. Anyways, from personal experience I just know that 
> having the information ready to actually order parts for a production 
> run of a design is a painfull, time consuming process. I expect from a 
> modern CAD package some support here. Like being able to define 
> (multiple) suppliers for a part, entering price per quantity 
> information, datasheet URLs etc. etc. and having a process thereafter 
> that allows to make intelligent orders. Eagle has solved this with a ULP 
> (but IMHO that should be part of the base product but that's a 
> discussion we had already in the past).
>
> What I also miss is a similar feature like the ULPs in Eagle. Well, one 
> should be able to "add" individual functionality to a package as it's 
> possible with Eagle. Diptrace does have the ASCII export feature which 
> could be used to modify the database and reimport, but that seems a 
> little complicated let alone the fact that the data format does not seem 
> to be documented (as oposed to Eagle). Doing layout work also is not as 
> easy as it is in Eagle.
>
> However, I DO like the fact though that this seems to be a competition 
> for Eagle and I would recommend the package to someone looking for a 
> good package on a budget. Besides it seems to be a relatively new 
> product, so we may will see progress in the future.
>
> Just my 2\ufffd of course.
>
> Markus
>
>
>   
Markus,
  I hope the more experienced people answer this as I am just a beginner 
at this so my needs are quite minimal at the present time. This is more 
of a hobby for me. Single sided boards with less than 250 pins (for now 
anyhow) and NEVER more than a 2-sided board. Maybe once I learn my way 
around I will see what you mean and then I can use Eagle but for now it 
looks like DipTrace will get me etching boards quicker.
My 2 cents :)
Dave

Dave schrieb:
>
> Markus Zingg wrote:
> > You guys made me curious. I downloaded and tried Diptrace out (went
> > through the tutorial etc.). I do not agree that it is soooo user
> > friendly compared to Eagle (as strange as this may sounds). Don't get
> > this wrong. It's truly ok for the money but for instance, I 
> particularly
> > find it clumsey to assign values to parts and make this visible in the
> > schematic entry program. You really have to go through too many mouse
> > clicks for such a frequent operation. I liked some other features 
> though
> > (i.e. some more intelligence moving around parts that are already have
> > connections etc.). What I also miss (ok, might be that I just don't 
> know
> > how to do it) is the ability to enter purchase department oriented
> > information for parts. I'm not totally fluent in english, so please 
> bear
> > with me when I now try to explain what I mean with more words than
> > otherwise needed. Anyways, from personal experience I just know that
> > having the information ready to actually order parts for a production
> > run of a design is a painfull, time consuming process. I expect from a
> > modern CAD package some support here. Like being able to define
> > (multiple) suppliers for a part, entering price per quantity
> > information, datasheet URLs etc. etc. and having a process thereafter
> > that allows to make intelligent orders. Eagle has solved this with a 
> ULP
> > (but IMHO that should be part of the base product but that's a
> > discussion we had already in the past).
> >
> > What I also miss is a similar feature like the ULPs in Eagle. Well, one
> > should be able to "add" individual functionality to a package as it's
> > possible with Eagle. Diptrace does have the ASCII export feature which
> > could be used to modify the database and reimport, but that seems a
> > little complicated let alone the fact that the data format does not 
> seem
> > to be documented (as oposed to Eagle). Doing layout work also is not as
> > easy as it is in Eagle.
> >
> > However, I DO like the fact though that this seems to be a competition
> > for Eagle and I would recommend the package to someone looking for a
> > good package on a budget. Besides it seems to be a relatively new
> > product, so we may will see progress in the future.
> >
> > Just my 2\ufffd of course.
> >
> > Markus
> >
> >
> >
> Markus,
> I hope the more experienced people answer this as I am just a beginner
> at this so my needs are quite minimal at the present time. This is more
> of a hobby for me. Single sided boards with less than 250 pins (for now
> anyhow) and NEVER more than a 2-sided board. Maybe once I learn my way
> around I will see what you mean and then I can use Eagle but for now it
> looks like DipTrace will get me etching boards quicker.
> My 2 cents :)
> Dave
>
>  
As mentioned, Diptrace seems really ok for the price and seems a good 
solution given your requierements. You should not forget that Eagle in 
it's full unlimitted version costs 2 - 3 times the price, and Eagle also 
is a package at the lower end of the spectrum. It just was a little 
bummer for me to see that a modern, aparently freshly developped package 
makes you go through loops just when you want to assign a 49k value to a 
resistor and would like to have visible feedback of this in the 
schematic but otherwise is having features which compared to this are 
more in the "bells and whistles" area. Never the less, I truly wish the 
people behind Diptrace all the sucess they can get cause I really think 
that CadSoft entered a state where aparently bigger parts of that 
company seem to be in a long lasting nice cosy winter sleep. They truly 
need a harsh wake up call!

Markus

On Thu, 29 Nov 2007, Dave wrote:

> Markus,
>   I hope the more experienced people answer this as I am just a beginner
> at this so my needs are quite minimal at the present time. This is more
> of a hobby for me. Single sided boards with less than 250 pins (for now
> anyhow) and NEVER more than a 2-sided board.

Never say never! This time last year, I thought I would never have made a
PCB with a surface mount component, let alone a board exclusively SMD
including a 0.4mm pitched LQFP-80. And yes, I'm considering 4-layer boards
now after the time it took to lay this board out to get a half-acceptable
groundplane!

I'm glad I started with PCB, because it meant I didn't need to go through
re-learning how to make PCBs with some other software when I did start
making more complex things. Within 3 months of making my first PCB, I
built a homebrew Z80 based computer on a 160x100mm eurocard - that needed
almost 500 holes. None of the "free with lots of restrictions" packages
can make this modest homebrew computer.

The other thing I really appreciate about PCB it its hackability -
documented text save files are great for running through scripts, as well
as working better with version control software.

Dylan Smith wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Nov 2007, Dave wrote:
>
>   
>> Markus,
>>   I hope the more experienced people answer this as I am just a beginner
>> at this so my needs are quite minimal at the present time. This is more
>> of a hobby for me. Single sided boards with less than 250 pins (for now
>> anyhow) and NEVER more than a 2-sided board.
>>     
>
> Never say never! This time last year, I thought I would never have made a
> PCB with a surface mount component, let alone a board exclusively SMD
> including a 0.4mm pitched LQFP-80. And yes, I'm considering 4-layer boards
> now after the time it took to lay this board out to get a half-acceptable
> groundplane!
>
> I'm glad I started with PCB, because it meant I didn't need to go through
> re-learning how to make PCBs with some other software when I did start
> making more complex things. Within 3 months of making my first PCB, I
> built a homebrew Z80 based computer on a 160x100mm eurocard - that needed
> almost 500 holes. None of the "free with lots of restrictions" packages
> can make this modest homebrew computer.
>
> The other thing I really appreciate about PCB it its hackability -
> documented text save files are great for running through scripts, as well
> as working better with version control software.
>
>   
Dylan,
  Yeah, I guess you have a valid point. Never say never! I have already 
been looking at the SMD's and thinking I will have to try that too. The 
way I see it, I have all the software downloaded and some installed and 
I will start with the one that gets me etching the fastest and use what 
I learn when I need to move to other software if I run into restrictions 
or things I don't like. The thing right now for me is, I have to learn a 
bunch before I even know what will restrict me :) so I may as well start 
small and grow as I learn. I needed a Linux box set up anyhow so thats a 
bonus.
Thanks,
Dave

Markus Zingg wrote:
> As mentioned, Diptrace seems really ok for the price and seems a good 
> solution given your requierements. You should not forget that Eagle in 
> it's full unlimitted version costs 2 - 3 times the price, and Eagle also 
> is a package at the lower end of the spectrum. It just was a little 
> bummer for me to see that a modern, aparently freshly developped package 
> makes you go through loops just when you want to assign a 49k value to a 
> resistor and would like to have visible feedback of this in the 
> schematic but otherwise is having features which compared to this are 
> more in the "bells and whistles" area. Never the less, I truly wish the 
> people behind Diptrace all the sucess they can get cause I really think 
> that CadSoft entered a state where aparently bigger parts of that 
> company seem to be in a long lasting nice cosy winter sleep. They truly 
> need a harsh wake up call!
>
> Markus
>   

Markus,
  I guess I will have to see if I run into the same troubles as I learn 
but it seems that with a feedback to the parent company they would 
likely fix it in an update if they thought it would generate sales. I 
hate to be the "beta tester" as I have done enough of that over the 
years and in most cases its a thankless job. I like the user friendly 
feel I got from DipTrace as I made progress in 10 minutes and hadn't 
even looked at the help file. With Eagle I felt confused  a lot and that 
was even *with* using the help file.
Regards,
Dave

Dylan Smith <dyls@...> writes:
> I'm glad I started with PCB, because it meant I didn't need to go through
> re-learning how to make PCBs with some other software when I did start
> making more complex things. Within 3 months of making my first PCB, I

Ok, we have *got* to come up with a better name for that package.  :-P

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007, Dave wrote:

>   Yeah, I guess you have a valid point. Never say never! I have already
> been looking at the SMD's ...

You may find SMD not too hard - my second ever SMD soldering job was a
0.5mm pitch SSOP. (The first was a couple of SOT-23 transistors and a
SOIC, neither hard).

I find 1206 and 0603 passives faster to solder than through-hole passives
- no wires to clip off afterwards. I've not tried anything smaller than
0603! It just takes a little practise, I don't have anything fancier than
a good soldering iron with a pointy tip bit, fine solder, solder wick and
a magnifying glass.

Sparkfun Electronics have a tutorial on SMD soldering, as well as various
reflowing techniques (using a cheap toaster oven or a cheap hot plate).

http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/present.php?p=SMD-HowTo-1

Dylan Smith wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Nov 2007, Dave wrote:
>
>   
>>   Yeah, I guess you have a valid point. Never say never! I have already
>> been looking at the SMD's ...
>>     
>
> You may find SMD not too hard - my second ever SMD soldering job was a
> 0.5mm pitch SSOP. (The first was a couple of SOT-23 transistors and a
> SOIC, neither hard).
>
> I find 1206 and 0603 passives faster to solder than through-hole passives
> - no wires to clip off afterwards. I've not tried anything smaller than
> 0603! It just takes a little practise, I don't have anything fancier than
> a good soldering iron with a pointy tip bit, fine solder, solder wick and
> a magnifying glass.
>
> Sparkfun Electronics have a tutorial on SMD soldering, as well as various
> reflowing techniques (using a cheap toaster oven or a cheap hot plate).
>
> http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/present.php?p=SMD-HowTo-1
>
>   
I just bought a Hakko 936 to replace my Weller that I paid big bucks for 
years ago. The Weller was like new and rarely used but some expensive 
control board bit the dust and it quit working when it was out of 
warranty. The new Hakko 936 was less than the part to fix the Weller and 
the part was no longer available anyhow. Thanks for the link on SMD 
how-to. Forgive me if I have to google some of what you say as I am not 
familiar with SMD stuff...
Dave